Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Voss on March 27, 2002, 01:47:08 PM
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Well, maybe not *so* imminent, but by June we're going to attack. With the turmoil in the mid-East at an all time high, how far do (any of) you think this will go?
Personally, I can see this war on terrorism escalating into a World War, with North Korea being the final front.
I just had to post my prophecy somewhere! :D hmm, maybe that should be a...:(
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World war? I doubt it.
Maybe more threats of terrorist action, maybe more terrorist action, but probably it'll be just the same as it is in Afghanistan right now.
Many more lives lost most likely, but I don't think any country in their right mind would let anything escalate.
How many countries with fickle governments on the brink of collapse or being overrun have nukes?
-SW
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Many more lives lost most likely, but I don't think any country in their right mind would let anything escalate.
Just how many of these countries are in their right mind???
Even Kuwait opposes an attack on Iraq...WTF is up with these people,I can`t understand.
BTW15 dead and more than 100 wounded in latest scuicide attack (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/)
sigh...:(
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I saw that Caligula (the latest suicide attack)...
None of "those" countries are in their right mind, I meant superpowers. Russia, China, Britain, virtually all of the Euro nations west of the Alps.
Then again, I dunno. World Wars have been started from much, much less. (Archduke Franz Ferdinand)
-SW
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Yesterday browsing trough my favourites,I bumped into the link (http://www.politicsandprotest.org/) of this page abot the september 11 th attacks.I watched it and broke down and cried like I haven`t in years.Than I walked over to my friend Tamar ,who`s an israeli 19 years old girl teaching childeren here in Sacramento about jewish costums and such, for a year.
She`s planning to be a doctor,and work in an emergency room.
A truly wonderfull human being,with so much life, love and care in her heart.
She was busy cleaning her kitchen for passover,and talking to her mom on the phone.I just went out the backyard and and climbed up on a tree to watch the sunset,while I was waiting for her to finish.It was very peaceful.
Than we talked and ,and she made me feel lot better in a matter of minutes.
Today I read about the latest attack,and I`m affraid to call her,because if (god forbid) some of her family or friend were hurt,(she lives about 1 hour from Netanya) I wouldn`t know what to say to her.Just a little while ago a close friend of her`s was shot to death when a terrorist sniper killed 10 people at a checkpoint.
Seing her pain and not being able to help was awful.
Now I dread the day when I have to say good bye to her,and she goes back to the country where getting a coffe in the morning has to be a display of courage.
Than I read in the Newsweek about arab propaganda stating that for passover celebration jews need the blood of christian and muslim childeren under the age of 10.
While I feel no sorrow for these scuicide bombers,I belive they are victims as well.Victims of bad policies by Israel,but mainly by their own leaders who encurage them to commit such horrible crimes.
There`s a convinient store down the street ,owed by arabs that came here from Lebanon and Egypt.Very nice people.
I saw what they went trough after 9/11 and how they were trying to make sure people will not associate them with the terrorists,by displaying US flags all over the store,and I felt really bad for them.
The other day one of them talked to me about how nice it would be if we could get along over there just as well as here.
Yes it would be nice.....I wish I knew what I could do to make it happen.
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off with mask caligula......
thats far cry from your "kill/expel the palistinians" from a previous thread.
why cant we get along geeshhh
back to peddlin that stuff to the goy ey.......
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Maybe if the israelies gave back the land they STOLE from the Palestinians it would stop?
The other day one of them talked to me about how nice it would be if we could get along over there just as well as here.
Yes it would be nice.....I wish I knew what I could do to make it happen.
You want to "make it happen" then pressure your elected represenatives to cut financial and military aid to israel off, the #%&! animals don't deserve US support.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
I just went out the backyard and and climbed up on a tree to watch the sunset,while I was waiting for her to finish.It was very peaceful.
sheesh, i'm all veklempt...excuse me a few moments
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What mask???
If they keep doing it,they`ll have to be done away with.
But I wouldn`t mind them being anywhere if they behaved as humans should.
I do not hate or judge anyone by their origins,only by their deeds.
And if you think what happened today was the right thing,You`re living in the wrong country.
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Go on mrfish...why don`t you tell us what M13 looks like on mushrooms you diddlyin salamander..
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kinda like this but less defined:
(http://www.astromag.co.uk/m13.jpg)
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Turn a blind eye to what the israeli animals have been doing since 1947...that's the ticket. :rolleyes:
If they keep doing it,they`ll have to be done away with.
But I wouldn`t mind them being anywhere if they behaved as humans should.
I do not hate or judge anyone by their origins,only by their deeds.
So the 9/11 tribute brought a tear to your eye?
That's good, it upset me to watch it again, but it also PISSED ME OFF to know that my government supports a piss ant little country like israel and realize that support was a direct cause of 9/11.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. :mad:
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Can one smoke mushrooms ?
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but it also PISSED ME OFF to know that my government supports a piss ant little country like israel and realize that support was a direct cause of 9/11
The government might know better than you who to support and who not.They might be smarter than You,and maybe that`s the reason why they are in the government and not You.
BTW as far as I know ,the main complaint they have is the US presence in Saudi-Arabia,their most sacred land.If they could only control their own maniacs like Saddam,there wouldn`t need to be any westerner in that region.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Yesterday browsing trough my favourites,I bumped into the link (http://www.politicsandprotest.org/) of this page abot the september 11 th attacks.I watched it and broke down and cried like I haven`t in years.Than I walked over to my friend Tamar ,who`s an israeli 19 years old girl teaching childeren here in Sacramento about jewish costums and such, for a year.
She`s planning to be a doctor,and work in an emergency room.
A truly wonderfull human being,with so much life, love and care in her heart....
Confused presentation. Seemed like a memorial and not a poorly done one at that. Emotional pictures. A soundtrack guaranteed to evoke even more emotion... Until the end where the entire message is blasted out by this sword-rattling rant... all of which left me with one question.
What does this have to do with Iraq?
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I wonder how he would feel if we trained and armed palestinian to the same degree as we did with Israel?
That way boys with with nail bombs would stop..........
and make it a military action......
thats what they call it when isreali soldiers kill palestinian civilians.
I wont dig up that old thread but your
"humble pious people loving Semite act" may fool a few goy but but we know how ya really feel.
"Yahweh promised a conquered land"
:rolleyes:
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Have you already read DEA Report (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/ah/DEA_Report.pdf) about those Israeli "Art Students" in USA ?
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"As long as I can shoot down the enemy, adding to the honor of the Richthofen Geschwader and the success of the Fatherland, I will be a happy man. I want to fight and die fighting, taking with me as many of the enemy as possible."
Your signature clearly states,that you`re fascinated by the nazis,and with what they done,including the hatred,discrimination and extermination of jews.
I don`t care what You have to say for two reasons:
You`re a jew-hater,and You will never like what jews do whatever that may be,except for if they die.
And because you simply have no idea what is going on there.I get my news first hand ,from people who live there.
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Originally posted by mrfish
kinda like this but less defined:
(http://www.astromag.co.uk/m13.jpg)
where's the magic mushroom king and all the colors? :D
Come on guys we don't need to start eating each other, that's what the "evil ones" want. If the fishtard and I can get along, hell be in the same squad and even wing with each other. Surely we can :rolleyes: debate :rolleyes: with some sort of civility. Why do we keep having these same old arguments anyway? All it does is get most of us pissed off, where's the good in that? I know where mrfish stands on this issue and he knows where I stand, ask us when the last time we talked about it was.
There ain't anything any of us are going to do to change a damn thing over there. All we're going to do here is get pissed at one another and possibly ruin the fun in the game for ourselves.
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Have you already read DEA Report about those Israeli "Art Students" in USA ?
What makes it credible information?
BTW even if it`s true,are isrealis the only drug smugglers?
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How do you get your news first hand from people who live there.............. if they live here....?
And, that quote is from Helmutt Wick. A LuftWaffe fighter pilot, Wotan prolly thought it was a good signature since he flies for the vLuftWaffe for the vJG2 (Richtoffen geschwader).
-SW
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How do you get your news first hand from people who live there.............. if they live here....?
From people who are visiting here,and from people who have relatives and friends in Isreal who they talk to on a daily basis.
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BTW as far as I know ,the main complaint they have is the US presence in Saudi-Arabia
This crap FAR pre-dates the US presence in the so called holy land.
The cause of the middle east conflict is directly a result of the animals your so fond of.
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I am not a nazi but that really aint the issue anyway......
I dont come here and sell Nazism as you sell Zionism. I dont dislike Jews or any Semetic people.
You always start these threads with "I love everything" and slowly as people offer their views that smile turns to express your true view.
Helmut Wick died in 1940 he may or may not have been "a nazi" I could have edited the "and the success of the Fatherland" to make it more pc. You fly LW planes and your Zionist views closely match those of the nazis.
This is the old guilt trip that folks like you use "You nazi" and I am supposed to shut up and allow my white guilt to get the best of me.
This is the same stuff you tried in the other threads.
What is happening in palestine is a real shame for all involved. But those who have suffered and suffer far worse then diaspora jews like yourself are the palestinian's. They were sold out by the world and have been the ones to bear most of the terror over the last 60 years.
"Once an anti-semite was someone who didn't like Jews,,,,, now an anti-semite is anyone the Jews don't like"
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Now hold on a minute.
Caligula's first post was completely nonjudgemental. If you don't buy the sentiment then you don't. Why the attacks? Sounds like a bunch of baiting to me and I find it re-freaking-diculous.
Udie, well said.
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because he has a history of threads like this. He states the lovey dovey stuff but when you get to it hes just your typical racist Zionist.
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Come on guys we don't need to start eating each other, that's what the "evil ones" want. If the fishtard and I can get along, hell be in the same squad and even wing with each other. Surely we can debate with some sort of civility. Why do we keep having these same old arguments anyway? All it does is get most of us pissed off, where's the good in that? I know where mrfish stands on this issue and he knows where I stand, ask us when the last time we talked about it was.
While getting along is nice,I think as a jew You still have the responsibilty to defend your own people.Turning away ,and ignoring anti-semitic remarks will only lead to the destruction of Israel and ultimatelly to the entire jewish people.
This is a very difficoult time,when Istael`s very existence is at stake.I try to do as much as I can to counter the arab propaganda,that is picturing my people as bloodsucking vampires,and them as the innocent victims of this whole deal.
If You read trough this tread,You can see these people here are only knit-picking on my posts and totally disregard the facts that prove Israel`s and the jewish people`s righteousness.
But there might be someone ,who reads trough here and ,and this whole flamewar would make him wanna find out more about the truth,than I did well.
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this thread is a good example of our level of understanding the differences between us - nil - and why the world is in the chaos it is ..
that said, I don't understand the conflict & truly don't care why or when or what started it. Seems to me the Palestines don't want peace while Israel is on the map so peace with them is impossible.
That said if Israel stole, conquered or whatever ( I think it was awarded to them) the land the Palestines said was theirs, the Palestines should get over it and make something out of themselves and their country besides a nesting ground for terrorists. They'd earn the worlds support & sympathy.
Otherwise I don't see what would stop Israel from crushing the rest of their country.
on a side note, anyone watch the CNN "interview" with the spokesman from Hamas right after the bombing? Why do the reps from Palestine usually come across less educated & less civilized than their Israeli counterparts?
Have to agree, this could easily bloom into WW3, I think israel knows this and is the main reason for their restraint in their retaliations.
I think WW3 would delight the faction(s) in Palestine responsible for the bombings. If they can't >whatever<, no one else should be able to either ..........
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This was reasonable:
"While I feel no sorrow for these scuicide bombers,I belive they are victims as well.Victims of bad policies by Israel,but mainly by their own leaders who encurage them to commit such horrible crimes."
Stay on that tack and people may begin to listen.
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Thank You Eagler and thank You midnight target.
Unfortunatelly,my writing skills aren`t good,and I come across as some kind of fanatic sometimes.In fact I am not,and many times I disaggree with people who want an even more hard-line Israeli government and actions.
But than again,it`s hard to keep a cool head,when people close to You die so senslessly.
It`s shadowed by the "passover massacre" but there was another shooting by terrorists,where a 9 months old little girl was murdered. What did she have to do with anything?
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It saddens me to see this thread degrade in the direction it has gone.
This is pretty simple, really. We are at war against terrorism. Saddam is one of the worst and most corrupt leaders in the region, but his support of terrorism will be his undoing. His regime will fall very quickly.
Anyway, anything can happen. Let's hope we knock out Saddam and the rest of the region says a collective "Oh, toejam!" and rush off to sort sand.
However, I expect Iraq will be just the first paragraph in the book of World War III. Failing that, this war against terrorism will still continue for decades.
North Korea will still be waiting. Maybe Bush can pull a 'Reagan' and embarass them into tearing down the DMZ. Somehow, I doubt we get the chance.
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I am not listening to any Zionist bs propaganda....
The palestinians are fighting with the tools they have. Fact is the world sold out the palestinians, the Jews in Israel have terrorized them with the tools they have.
Those tools were supplied by the US. The world recognizes Zionism as a racist ideology and is so as much as Nazism was.
The Israeli government is not intertested in peaceful co-existance even a diaspora Jew like caligula stated in a previous thread that he wants the palestinians out of the land of the Jews because God said it was his.
The Jews in Israel used the same terror tactics prior to becoming a state. They bombed and murdered innocents to get what they want. They have stole land that was never theirs they put palestinians in camps and allowed them to starve to death. They attack and kill "innocent" palestinians.
So the palestinians want alittle pay back...Wouldn't you?
Either we should cut support for Israel or offer that same support to the palestinians.
I dont care what you Zionist apologist think about it. Israel is not our allie. They use us for weapons and cash. They provide the US with nothing. They are not a democracy in the same sence we are. They do nothing to protect the rights of non Jews living under Israeli rule.
Don't come here spewing some non sense about poor Israel. They made their own bed let them lay in it.
I will tell you this had I been been forced to endure what the palestinians had to then peace be damned there would be no "get along just to get along" I wouldn't stop till my pay back was satisfied.
If peace was your only concern then give up. Your damn right the palestinians dont want peace they want freedom from their Zionist opressors. and yeah some want so pay back.
Would you tell a pole that in the interest of peace he oughta except Nazism as his master...........
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uhumm..
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
I try to do as much as I can to counter the arab propaganda,that is picturing my people as bloodsucking vampires,and them as the innocent victims of this whole deal.
that's too much. that's like a democrat saying they to come on tom brokaw's show for equal time.
the last half century has been a propaganda dousing from israel via there purchased puppets and the sap happy media. now you've got americans waking up and rubbing their eyes and saying 'wait a second'. not just the few who could see all along but now droves....
israel's deeds are too great to be spun away any more. the media has turned on you because now it gets better ratings sympathizing with the arabs!
see how roadkill is double edge sword? go ahead though, i love how you can go from threats to kumbaya in less than a second. it's like the evil computer right before it blows up or something.... keep trying, eventually just the right face will pop up....
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the arab propaganda,that is picturing my people as bloodsucking vampires,and them as the innocent victims of this whole deal.
Propaganda....or the truth? (http://www.angelfire.com/al/quwaizani/israel.html) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know who is right and who is wrong.
The Israeli "bloodsuckers" are reaping what they have sowed.
Take away a mans land, lock him up in a camp, starve him and his family, take away his hopes, aspirations, dreams of a decent future for his children, treat him like an animal and what do you get?
You get terrorists willing to strap bombs to their bodies or fly plane loads of innocents into buildings, even that dumb bellybutton shrub is smart enough to see the outcome of these policies.
The question is will he be man enough to stand up to the hand wringing Israeli lobbyists when they play their worn out Holocaust card again and ask for more hand outs from America?
It`s shadowed by the "passover massacre" but there was another shooting by terrorists,where a 9 months old little girl was murdered. What did she have to do with anything?
Care to compare the "body count" of Palestinians murdered by the animals you support, or does your compassion only extend to the poor misunderstood Israelis?
Gods "Chosen People" my ass.
Edit:
If You read trough this tread,You can see these people here are only knit-picking on my posts and totally disregard the facts that prove Israel`s and the jewish people`s righteousness.
Care to *show* us "the facts that prove Israel`s and the jewish people`s righteousness"?
I haven't seen any, or does the blood on their hands wash them clean of sin?
Animals.
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Were you there when all those were massacred by the jews?
Are there any pictures,film footage,or any other credible documents proving these crimes really happened?
That is exactly the kind of arab propaganda I`m talking about.
In a major Saudi newspaper (I get this from newsweek) they described purim and passover,where jews use the blood of childeren,and muslim men are tortured to death in barrels with spikes inside,in a ritual manner.
I just got home from passover dinner,and there was no blood neither any kind of torture.
Arabs are liars.Look at Arafat, he says one thing in english,than says something totally different in arabic.Like all the rest of the world were idiots,and we couldn`t figure out he`s dirty scams.
Just tune in to CNN,and see it yourself.
Ohhh..off course CNN is controlled by jews...huh?..nevermind
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Caligula:
How are the Palestenian terrorist today any different thn the Jewish terrorists of the 1930s and 1940s?
Or did the King David Hotel and all the other things just blow up by themselves?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Caligula:
How are the Palestenian terrorist today any different thn the Jewish terrorists of the 1930s and 1940s?
Or did the King David Hotel and all the other things just blow up by themselves?
He's not interested in pointing his self righteous high powered microscope at the "innocent lambs of god" Israelites.
Thieves of an indigenous peoples land, murderers and oppressors of those people, and yet they pretend they are the victims. :rolleyes:
Guess what? People with any common sense aren't buying the "poor, poor, pitiful me" sob story anymore, it's time for Israel to clean up their act or face the consequences......... ALONE.
Animals
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Originally posted by weazel
Maybe if the israelies gave back the land they STOLE from the Palestinians it would stop?
You have to decide what country owns what territory before you can make bold statements regarding any occupation or "theft".
Before we even start, are you basing that statement on the 1975 Helsinki final act of the Conference of Security and Co-operation? Because if you dont, I want you to tell me who decides what country owns what territory. And if you base your statement on the Helsinki final act, where does that leave the Palestinians in their demand for a country of their own?
After you have made up your mind on what territory is occupied/stolen, and from whom? You can go on to the question which law is governing the alleged occupied territory, and if the answer to that question is the occupant, then what conclusions can be drawn from that?
IF you say that the territory is occupied or stolen by Israel, you MUST answer the question "who owned it before it was occupied". Now, lets suppose you answer that question with "Palestine". (Im gonna be real nice here, so instead of diving in on you after you answer that, Im gonna tell you what the problem is). Problem is that there never was an independent country named Palestine. You had a British protectorate, which was divided into two parts "Israel" and "Palestine". The part called "Palestine" was immediately conquered by Egypt and Jordan. The part called "Israel" survived. Everyone basically agrees that the "state" of Palestine never existed, Egypt and Jordan absorbed its territory. In another war 20 yrs later Israel conquered the territory from the new owners. Now I ask you, the West Bank and the Gaza strip... who owned it before Israel conquered it? Jordan, Egypt or "Palestine"?
If you claim that Israel occupies Palestinian territory, then you have effectively created a vaccum, because Palestine does not exist, and it has indeed never existed. That would mean that Israel "occupies" land that doesn't belong to anyone. And in such a case, the territory occupied is considered a part of the occupying country. Clearly you would not want that, so you must find some other way. How about Jordan then? After the 48-war, Jordan occupied the west bank and claimed ownership over the territory. Problem with that line of argument is that nowadays states never recognize aggressive warfare as a legal way to increase your country's territory. And besides, Jordan has stated that the river Jordan is her western border. That would mean that the west bank is abandoned territory, and thus it belongs to the country claiming it by occupation. And again, Israel owns the west bank.
Leaving all that legal complexity aside (its complicated huh…and no fun either), it should be pretty obvious that Israel currently "owns" the west bank. Israeli law is applicable on the territory, it is defended by Israeli armed forces, and no other country claims any legal rights to that territory.
You cant steal something that has no owner. Tough huh?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How are the Palestenian terrorist today any different thn the Jewish terrorists of the 1930s and 1940s?
Does it matter?
If you look back through history long enough, you will find terrorists or freedomfighters everywhere. In fact, I think every single nation on this earth has had such an organization play a vital part at some point in its history.
The label you choose to put on the organization (i e "terrorist" or "freedomfighter") will only be decided by your own point of view...your own sympathies. The entire question is flawed.
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My history is fuzzy here...Did not Egypt and friends start the war that gave Israel its current extended borders?
Dont get me wrong, I support neither the Palestinians' or the Israeli's in their Terroristic actions.
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Originally posted by Ping
My history is fuzzy here...Did not Egypt and friends start the war that gave Israel its current extended borders?
Dont get me wrong, I support neither the Palestinians' or the Israeli's in their Terroristic actions.
Well, that kinda depends on what war you are talking about.
The 1967 war was technically started by Israel. But it was a preemptive strike in self defence, and those are accepted by international law. It was after 67 that Israel claimed the west bank and Gaza strip.
In 1973 and 1948 the wars were started by Egypt & Co.
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Thanx for the quick response.
My thoughts on the Is/Pal issue are that there will be no quick settlement. The Hate is to deeply ingrained on both sides.
Look how long the slavery issue/native american issue is taking to resolve in America.
As for Iraq, Of what benefit would there be in taking out Iraq?
World opinion seems to be Dont go there. The Arab league should be given the power to Police their own Rogue Nations.
Seems that Saudi Arabia has put forward a reasonable peace plan, did it not?
Of course all this relies on Everyone using common sense and then abiding by International Law :rolleyes:
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Israel removed palestinians from their homes restricted them to reservations and did so with force. There may not have been an independent palestinian state but the people who owned property certainly they were robbed.
Palestine may never have been a country but they are a nation. They share the same beliefs culture religous law etc. They were only not a "country" by name.
Dont bring up the American indians or none of that because theres nothing any of us can do about that or any other situation like that. We can however look at whats happening now and know that its wrong.
Israel was born out the same terror it now faces. The difference is they they brought in on them selves. If they want it to stop then give up. If not then reap what you sow.
Palestine was stolen by the Iraelis there is no doudt about that. Whether they did it under the guise of international or religous law or with the machine gun the results the same. A people unwillingly dispossessed of their land, their homes buisnesses etc. On top of that they are denied jobs or any semblence of protection under Israeli law. They are rounded up put in camps to starve and locked in reservations without any freedom of movement. They are machine gunned down by Israeli forces.
The point is that that territory is disputed and the US backs one side and turns a blind eye to Israeli violence against "innocent" palestinian civilians.
You can kick a dog only so much till he bites back. The palestinians can only strike back with the tools they have.
Call it an insurrection, rebellion, civil war what ever but the palestinians are hardly the aggressor.
The Israelis bulldozed numerous palestinian homes and villages and pushed them into a smaller and smaller section of land.
The state of Israel never had any intent on living peacfully among arabs.
Weazel's right the whole lot of them are animals each walking around pissin on each other. I say leave umm to it. Just my country ought not be subsidizing one side.
But damn I aint gonna listen to a sob story about poor Israel.
A Israeli life is no more important then a palestinian.
I am sure Caligula will tell ya an Israeli is because they are Gods people and the palestinians are nothing but cattle. Maybe not it all depends on the face hes wearing next time he makes a reply.
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Just read esther if ya want to know about the feast of purim.
How many goy were slain on the word of a jewish potato and her family?
You dont need to read anything else. Take it from the Jews themselves.
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Naitve american,slavery comment was made only to illustrate the time involved in dealing with it. It is still being argued be some.
This was only made to show how deep the racial hatred or feelings of injustice can run.
Should we be held accountable for actions our forefathers commited? No.
Should current injustices be corrected? Yes.
The Facts remain, Both sides in the Middle East are commiting crimes, who started it really is moot. The killings have to stop and both sides have to be willing to sit down and talk. Both sides have shown that they are quite capable of refusing that option.
And therin lies my comparison to other Long standing issues, Its not going to go away any time soon. The Hatred is being carried by individuals on both sides.
All the mediation in the world will not help untill both sides actually listen to the mediator. Hell...This reminds me of My Divorce. :eek:
As stated before I support neither side in their actions. Both are commiting crimes as far as I am concerned.
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When discussing things like these, you should first decide whether you want to argue around the moral aspects of it or the legal aspects of it. Doing both at once will only lead to complete confusion.
Lets start with the legal aspects of this issue.
Before we can do anything about the conflict in Israel, we need to define it, or "put a label on it". Is this a war, a civil war, or just internal unrest? The difference is enormous when it comes to possible outside involvement.
Lets start with civil wars. A civil war can be defined as a war between two or more groups of inhabitants of the same states one of which may be the government. It may be fought for the control of the government of a state or it may be caused by the desire of part of the population to secede and form a new state. There are however other types of civil wars. For example, a rebelling group may simply try to force the government to make concessions (grant regional autonomy), a civil war may even be fought between parties while the government remains passive and neutral (Lebanon 1975-76).
The problem of civil wars have grown in the last years, since states seldom attack other states in order to enlarge their territory. Instead they increase their influence by encouraging factions sharing their own ideology to seize or retain power in other states.
So what does international law have to say about civil wars?
There is no rule in international law against civil wars. Article 2 (4) of the UN Charter prohibits the use or threat of force in international relations only. There is however one rule that might apply here. The use of force to frustrate the exercise of a legal right to self-determination is generally regarded as illegal, but such wars (wars of national liberation) are classified as civil wars. More about that later.
So between the two fighting sides in a civil war international law is not applicable. In such a situation the conduct of the fighting forces are ruled by other laws, such as the Geneva conventions on the laws of war.
Participation by outsiders? As a general rule, foreign states are forbidden to give help to insurgents in a civil war. General assembly rule 2131 (XX) declares that "no State shall organize, assist, foment, finance, incite or tolerate subversive, terrorist or armed activities directed towards the violent overthrow of the regime of another state, or interfere in civil strife in another State"
On a sidenote, Nicaragua took the US to the International court of Justice in the case Nicaragua vs USA ICJ Rep. 1986 The US refused to accept the jurisdiction of the court, and thus the courts findings in the case were null and void. It is also kinda amusing that the US, being a permanent member of the security counsel has a permanent right to have one judge in the court, and the US uses this right…but she still refuses to accept the jurisdiction of the court.
Moreover, to send troops to the territory of a state without the consent of the government of that state is invasion which is listed in article 3(a) of the General assembly's definition of aggression, as a form of aggression, and therefore a form of armed attack. Thus giving the government in the state the right to self defence. (Compare with the situation in Kosovo if you will).
To supply insurgents with weapons does not constitute an armed attack, but it is nevertheless illegal, and it gives the injured state the right to adopt proportionate countermeasures against the wrongdoing state.
Self-determination and the use of force...this is where it gets interesting
The principle of self-determination refers to the right of a people living in a territory to determine the political and legal status of that territory. This right is explicitly mentioned in the UN Charter in article 1(2) and in Article 55. Problem is that these provisions are vague, and it is doubtful whether they lend themselves to establishing specific rights and duties. Basically the articles tells us that there is such a thing as a right to self-determination, but they fail to tell us how this right is exercised, and what duties the surrounding or controlling states have towards the people wanting to express their rights.
If a people of a particular territory are regarded by international law as possessing a legal right to self-determination but the state administering the that territory refuses to let them exercise that right, they may need to fight a war of national liberation in order to achieve self-determination in practice. Such a war would be a civil war, and all the laws regarding civil wars would apply. This is one of the rare cases where a war of aggression (against the government) is lawful. The situation gets very complicated very fast however. It is clear that international law is not applicable on a civil war, but it is also clear that there is a general consensus that any state trying to prohibit one peoples right to self-determination is in violation of international law.
So what happens if one state (lets take Israel as the hypothetical example here) uses force to prevent a people (and lets take the Palestinian people here, just for arguments sake) from exercising their right to self-determination? Well, first, lets establish the ground rules here. The General assembly of the United Nations has declared that the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination. Problem is that the General assembly did not specify in which area the Pals had this right. Were they talking about the Gaza strip and the west bank (which would be most logical) or the entire area of present day Israel? (which would of course lead to the conclusion that the Israelis would have to move somewhere else). Anyway, lets continue in our hypothetical example. While it is true that violation of the right to self-determination is a violation of international law, this doesnt really mean that much. Because breaches of one state of international rules are not treated as justifying other states to breach international law too. See above regarding helping insurgents in a civil war.
So what does this all tell us? Well, basically it says that the Israelis are breaking international law when they are preventing the Pals from excercising their right to self-determination. It also tells us that the Pals have the right to self-determination. But it doesnt say where the pals have the right to self determination. The situation can be compared to that one of the Kurds. Having the right to self determination is not the same thing as the right to an independent nation. One must remember that. It also tells us that it is illegal for any state to help the Pals in any way, with either military force or the supply of arms. What is required here? Yup..a resolution from the security counsel ordering Israel to stop their actions against the Pals, after that the security counsel can decide on embargoes or even war against Israel…after that, and only after that, can any other country come to the aid of the Pals…
Does anyone think that will ever happen?
So, where does all this leave us?
The conflict in Israel today can be described as internal unrest, or a civil war (if you are stretching it) In neither of these cases is international law applicable. That leaves us with Israeli national law, and some general rules of warfare etc. It is not against the rules of war to assassinate valid military targets. Terrorist leaders, members of the Palestine security staff, members of the Palestinian police force are all considered combatants, and thus valid military targets. It is however, against both national law, as well as the general rules of warfare to use suicide bombers to blow up children. You have your three typical groups of palestinian "freedom fighters", first there are the stoneheads. They take to the streets throwing rocks at Israeli police and military, now there is a smart move right there, "lets see, I'll throw this big rock at that tank, that'll scare them off". Then you have the second group, strapping bombs on themselves to take out busses, cars and airplanes filled with people. They just want to kill civilians, as many as possible. Then you have a third group who snipes at 10 months old babies, drive their busses into busstops crowded with people or lay outside jewish settlements at night sniping at lit windows. All of these guys are in violation of either national law, or the laws of war.
As for the child throwing rocks. There is a very very easy way for him to escape injury STAY AT HOME instead of running around in the street hurling rocks at every Israeli soldier. If it were your 10 yr old son, would you allow him to do that?
"-Dad, today I want to be with my friends to throw rocks at the Israeli tanks. They will probably shoot at us, but all my friends are going, can I go too?". -Sure son, just make sure your home before supper"
Let me ask you, what could they possibly hope to achieve by throwing all those rocks? Do they think that if they throw enough rocks then the Israeli government will finally surrender? "Well, yesterday 4000 rocks were thrown at our checkpoint, that brings the total up to 190.000, better surrender the west bank to the arabs"? If they want media attention, well, there are better ways of achieving that. Blow up a buss, and every tv station in the world will cover it.
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Hrm..It seems I drifted a bit off subject there. My point was this:
Israel is not in violation of international law. It requires a resolution from the security counsel stating that Israel is violating the pal right to self determination for that.
The conflict between Israel and the pals is not an international conflict because there has to be two countries involved for that.
Israeli law and general rules of warfare is applicable on the situation. Israel has not broken these laws (I can go into detail here if you want), because (to my knowledge) every Israeli action has been within the boundaries of Israeli law.
The Palestinians on the other hand, are in violation of both Israeli law, and the general rules of warfare.
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Originally posted by weazel
Turn a blind eye to what the israeli animals have been doing since 1947...that's the ticket. :rolleyes:
If they keep doing it,they`ll have to be done away with.
But I wouldn`t mind them being anywhere if they behaved as humans should.
I do not hate or judge anyone by their origins,only by their deeds.
So the 9/11 tribute brought a tear to your eye?
That's good, it upset me to watch it again, but it also PISSED ME OFF to know that my government supports a piss ant little country like israel and realize that support was a direct cause of 9/11.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. :mad:
Well..actualy our government supports Isreal due to the fact that is a clear PRO-western government. It has clear ties w/the West on many fronts...economic, social, even religous.
The terrorism that we watched on 9-11 didnt have any thing to do w/Isreal. Thats the face they WANT you to see but its simply not true. These indiv's see our very WAY OF LIFE as being something they find offensive. They feel we have alot of influnce and thus are SPREADING our way of life...and this is abhorent to them. They there fore plot to cease our influnece. HOW...well they see us as being weakling, fat merchants that will bow over when they hit our finacial backbone and cripple our economy.
There are forces at work in the middle-east that simply have NO desire for peace. The feed off the misery of the Palastiens/Israelies. The get the power and influnce FROM this dispute. If this dispute is resolved in some form... they LOSE that power and influnce or it is at least dimished in some form.
There business is killing..and business is good eh? They want to keep it that way.
xBAT
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well his dad is starving to death in a camp in lebanon. So I guess m16s are the correct response to rocks thrown at a apc and tanks.
Its not just kids with stones who are getting shot.
I dont need international anything to show that israelis are animals equal to the palestinians in their bloodlust.
You brought the "legal" arguement into no one else. Ofcourse resistance is illegal. Ofcousre the Israelis use "law" to justify their position. Zionism and Nazism both do that.
No one here has called for any sort of trial. But Caligula came here with tears in his eyes over 9/11 and tried to insert the look at the poor israelis. Well they get what they deserve, They are getting in return what they dish out. Its them that call for peace all they while stomping on innocent palestinians. When the palestinians dare raise a hand in opposition they want the world feel guilty and aid them against those "terrorists".
The Israelis push for this type of reponse. They know first hand that rolling tanks over pal cars and property and killing them doesnt bring "peace". As for the pals theres no peace until they wrestle a way from the isrealis the right to self determination.
No one in this thread really made any mention of the arguement you have made.
The response has been let the animals fight it out. And stop the US arms and cash to israel.
Something in the water in that area of the world it makes you all crazy.
Your long winded arguement may be correct but its hardly the point.
A man may beat his dog all he wants but when the dog bites him back dont go around crying that we need to get rid of all dogs.
Seems to me if I order the shelling of pal and they respond by filling a suit case full of c4 or a nail bomb strapped to them and blow up my people up I would rethink my strategy. They dont care if they die, look at the life they have ahead. So killing them back only ensures more of my own will die in the future.
The israelis created the conditions that have lead to what they have now. No court need tell me that.
They simple get what they deserve. They have the power to end it but they shift the blame to fat bellybutton arafat. I doudt he could stop the Hamas or the others. Whether he agrees with them or not is irrelevant.
Replying bomb with bomb just leads to a lot of mess and some of it spills over to the truly innocent like 9/11.
Even some jews in israel itself are starting to get it. So is a lot of the world.
In the mean rime I wish my country would just leave Israel to itself. But the israelli lobby and religous nuts in this country prevent that.
And they get no sympathy here especially since what guides them is their Zionist dilusion that God told them they could do what ever they want after all they are chosen.........
Batdog israel is only pro western as long as the check dont bounce......Our relationship with israel has always been a oneway street.
As for the Europeans I dont think Israel could do anything that would upset their guilt. Imagine an anti Israeli german government ....lol doudt it.
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:eek:
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Personaly Wotan i wish we'd wash our hand of the entire middle east. Become energy self suffecient and basicly tell them..have at it. BUT if you mess w/us we'll obliterate you.
xBAT
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Originally posted by Ping
As for Iraq, Of what benefit would there be in taking out Iraq?
World opinion seems to be Dont go there. The Arab league should be given the power to Police their own Rogue Nations.
Seems that Saudi Arabia has put forward a reasonable peace plan, did it not?
Of course all this relies on Everyone using common sense and then abiding by International Law :rolleyes:
Iraq is on the side of terrorism and thus oppose us in the fight against terrorism. Iraq will be a great first step toward eliminating terrorism. You could name a dozen countries engaged in the same sort of support as Iraq.
I think it all comes down to oil. Bush Sr. didn't finish the job, so Bush Jr. will. I don't see it happening, but if turmoil in the region were eliminated, then oil production costs would be reduced. How the two are related would require too much explanation.
We probably won't stop in Iraq, but that depends on the American people. You can already see the resolve from 9/11 slipping. So, there's no telling where we'll end up, or how far the public will allow the fight to go.
It's going to be a long fight.
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Man, I don't have any clue as to what the answer is to the mess in the middle east. It almost seems like events are speeding along to some foregone conclusion that isn't very rosy. There is going to have to be a sudden outbreak of wisdom, tolerance, understanding and generosity among everyone involved for this to work out without eventually turning into a fight between nations and/or religions for survival.
Maybe a world-altering cataclysm is necessary for there to eventually be an outcome that all sides will accept. If you think about it, most of the overt agression in the past 30 years has been carried out by nations that were not players in the last world war. If such an outcome is inevitable, lets get it over with before everyone has nukes to toss around.
Here's to hoping I am 100% completely wrong, heh.
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Saddam just upped the anty, he now pays $25,000 to any immediate family that sacrifices a son or daughter to blow themselves up to kill infidels. yep, we're going in to clean that cess pool out.
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mid east oil or oil in general isnt just an energy source. Everything from your clothes to your keyboard were developed from patroleum products. Theres no escaping the need for oil.
It easy to say let umm keep their oil but the impact on the world economy would be devastating/ We have to be there. We have to keep it flowing or far worse unrest could be the result.
oil is the life blood of the world economy. It is in our interest to stay engaged with that part of the world. The problem is our 1 sided relationship with israel does nothing to preserve our interests.
The japaneese and the germans have always had good relationships with the arabs. Our problems there arent limited to our support of israel. The cold and interference by both us and the russians and a whole host of other things strain our relationship with the islamic people. Then to support Jews the arch enemies of islam at the expense of the palestinians simple reinforces what they already suspect.
It would never be enough for the us just to cut off relations with israel. The arabs will always have suspicion about our motives. We can never disengage from the middle east.
Now to get on topic would toppling Sadam be of any benefit to the us? Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. Do we occupy Iraq indeffinately? I dont know.
But we should leave poor Israel to fend for its self. Piss on the animals let umm go at it.
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Yeah, toppling Saddam will prove to otehrs in the area that we are serious in our endeavour against terrorism. We've made so many promises in the past that we didn't follow through with (well, our government did, anyway), just ask any Kurd you can find still standing.
Blast Saddam and if we don't get cooperation then attack Iran. If that doesn't work then turn on the next country supporting terrorism. This is a can-of-worms that has been ignored since the 1800's, and it's high time we get serious with it.
Didn't Heinlein write about this?
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There have been reports that any attack on Iraq isn't going to come this summer. The military "d00dz" state that the mid summertime temperature (up to +50'C) in Iraq would not be conducive to military operations, as it would wreak havoc with machines and man alike.
When on August 2 Iraq invaded Kuwait, it was 3 days later that Prez. Bush Sr. said that the invasion would not stand. If you remember, it was on January 12 that Congress authorized use of force in the Gulf war, and January 17 marked the first attacks.
Whether it was planned (to avoid summer temps) or simply good timing (6 months to get war machine into action, transport equipment, etc.) I'll never know.
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In 1948 when the state of Israel was declered the arabs attacked and tried to destroy it.One in every 10 jews died in the fighting,and when it was over they had to be rounded up and made sure they are no treat to the israeli people anymore.Eversince than they showed no signs of them wanting to accept the existence of israel,so that`s why they are kept the way they are.It has nothing to do with them not being the "chosen people" or any other racial or national reasons.
As far as terror attacks go,the israeli groups like Irgun and Hagana targeted military targets,and they allways gave a fair warning before those bombs went off.In the case of Hotel king David something went wrong,and that`s why all those people had to die,but still it was a center of brit military.
I want the palestinians to live well and prosperous,but as long they won`t accept the jews` right to live there ,they won`t have the same rights in that country as the jews.It`s that simple.
And Wotan: stop using the bible to prove your points,It only shows You have no idea what You`re talking about.
BTW I`m not even religious,and I don`t belive the reason for Israel`s existence is that God gave it to the jews.
The reason is:jews need a home,just like any other nation.
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To create the state of Israel after WW2 was a terrible fault.
It causes much hate - even between people and nations who didnt knew each other before in their history.
One of the results of this stupid policy was the also very stupid and barbaric attack against the WTC by arabs against americans - two nations who didnt know each other 50 years ago.
But only half a century after the creation of Israel enough arab fanatics were produced to make such a devestating terroristic suicide attack against US-americans.
The so called war against terrorism cant have any success. Even if the anti-terrorism-nations conquer and occupy or install a puppet regime in Iraq, Iran, Korea and all the other nations who are called terroristic they will not be able to stop a single terroristic counterattack.
In contrary: They will only produce the next generation of fanatics who are ready to sacrifice themself for bigger suicide attacks.
Just see what happens in these days in Israel: Under the mad dog Sharon who sends out his military for new nazi-like massacres against the palestines - he is not able to avoid the next suicide terror-attack of a palestine fanatic.
The solution can only be done by politicians and surely not by military.
Even if the military wins 1000 battles - they cant win the war.
So its not important when or if the USA attacks Iraq - it will bring nothing and surely it will not reduce terrorism.
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Originally posted by babek-
To create the state of Israel after WW2 was a terrible fault.
It causes much hate - even between people and nations who didnt knew each other before in their history.
One of the results of this stupid policy was the also very stupid and barbaric attack against the WTC by arabs against americans - two nations who didnt know each other 50 years ago.
But only half a century after the creation of Israel enough arab fanatics were produced to make such a devestating terroristic suicide attack against US-americans.
The so called war against terrorism cant have any success. Even if the anti-terrorism-nations conquer and occupy or install a puppet regime in Iraq, Iran, Korea and all the other nations who are called terroristic they will not be able to stop a single terroristic counterattack.
In contrary: They will only produce the next generation of fanatics who are ready to sacrifice themself for bigger suicide attacks.
Just see what happens in these days in Israel: Under the mad dog Sharon who sends out his military for new nazi-like massacres against the palestines - he is not able to avoid the next suicide terror-attack of a palestine fanatic.
The solution can only be done by politicians and surely not by military.
Even if the military wins 1000 battles - they cant win the war.
So its not important when or if the USA attacks Iraq - it will bring nothing and surely it will not reduce terrorism.
gee you're right. Only if hitler would have had a few more years we wouldn't have this problem huh? :rolleyes:
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An interesting question...
60 years ago the civilized world stopped Hitler and his terrorism.
Today it does nothing to stop the Hitler-like Sharon and his terrorism.
So we know results of what happened after a Hitler-like monster was stopped and now could wait and see what happens when a Hitler-like monster could act like Sharon wants...
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Originally posted by Voss
Iraq is on the side of terrorism and thus oppose us in the fight against terrorism. Iraq will be a great first step toward eliminating terrorism. You could name a dozen countries engaged in the same sort of support as Iraq.
And there lies the problem, The World leaders have not agreed to a strict definition of Terrorism. No one has been willing to tackle that salamanderly porcupine yet.
One mans Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Whos definition do we go by?
Perhaps before declaring a war on terrorism.....we should all go with the same definition of it. If I remember correctly, The Arab league asked that very same thing, and it makes sense.
And no double standards. Pakistan has terrorist training camps, why are they allies in the war? Should not ZERO tolerance apply here?
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Originally posted by babek-
An interesting question...
60 years ago the civilized world stopped Hitler and his terrorism.
Today it does nothing to stop the Hitler-like Sharon and his terrorism.
So we know results of what happened after a Hitler-like monster was stopped and now could wait and see what happens when a Hitler-like monster could act like Sharon wants...
While I don't agree with Babek here, I do award him two points for the Reversal. Well met indeed.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by babek-
An interesting question...
60 years ago the civilized world stopped Hitler and his terrorism.
Today it does nothing to stop the Hitler-like Sharon and his terrorism.
So we know results of what happened after a Hitler-like monster was stopped and now could wait and see what happens when a Hitler-like monster could act like Sharon wants...
You could be right. But why is it we only see Isreali's military hitting military targets? (yes the house of a terrorist is a military target IMO) Then on the other hand almost every day another palestinian blows himself up taking inocents with him? 20 just yesterday with over 100 wounded. They'd have a diddlying state by now if they'd stop acting like barbarians. They were >< that freaking close in the 90's only they wouldn't accept a state called Isreal.
And still the memory is there of those wonderful palestinians dancing in the street on 9/11. And still no one talks of Jordan Syria and Egypt who are the ones responsible for the position palestinians find themselves in today. They are using palestine as a pawn. They say they want peace yet they don't even let Arafat speak to the arab conference. They wan't their diddlying land back that they lost in '67 they could care less about palestine.
I don't even know why I got mixed up in this fight again. I'm begining to realize that nothing is going to happen until they get new leaders over there on both sides.
side note,
Why is it they can co-exist here in the USA?
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Probably because we don't pack arabs into squalid little camps and deny them basic human rights.
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Originally posted by babek-
To create the state of Israel after WW2 was a terrible fault.
I dunno about it being terrible fault, but United Nations could have formed the Jewish State in more co-operation with surrounding countries, if possible.
HORTLUND wrote:
You have your three typical groups of palestinian "freedom fighters", first there are the stoneheads. They take to the streets throwing rocks at Israeli police and military, now there is a smart move right there, "lets see, I'll throw this big rock at that tank, that'll scare them off". Then you have the second group, strapping bombs on themselves to take out busses, cars and airplanes filled with people. They just want to kill civilians, as many as possible. Then you have a third group who snipes at 10 months old babies, drive their busses into busstops crowded with people or lay outside jewish settlements at night sniping at lit windows
I would add the 4th group with mortars and katjusha rocket launchers attacking from Lebanon. I know that these groups don't get much "TV-time", but they are there.
-vector
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I love threads about the Iraqi threat to world peace due to weapons of mass destruction.
I am in the right thread, aren't I?
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Right thread, wrong topic. Got Hijacked long time ago :D
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On the topic of, threat to world peace due to weapons of mass destruction. I thought the USA and USSR had taken care of that quite handily by ensuring that there was enough to wipe out the earth several times over. MADD.
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I'd a 5th group to your list Hortlund -
Those that use Semtex, bought by sympathetic Americans from Libya, place it in several rubbish bins along a high street in a busy town and then blow up one of the bins. Each of the other bins has a delay set into their timer so that it explodes as the crowd (panicked by first explosion) runs by, thereby increasing the carnage.
Or how about those that use a simple car bomb in another busy high street, killing nearly 40 people and injuring 100s more yet are not declared by the US to be an illegal organisation until 3 years after the event and six months before Sept. 11th, 2001.
One man's terrorist really is another man's freedom fighter.
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Originally posted by Udie
You could be right. But why is it we only see Isreali's military hitting military targets? (yes the house of a terrorist is a military target IMO) Then on the other hand almost every day another palestinian blows himself up taking inocents with him? 20 just yesterday with over 100 wounded. They'd have a diddlying state by now if they'd stop acting like barbarians. They were >< that freaking close in the 90's only they wouldn't accept a state called Isreal.
And still the memory is there of those wonderful palestinians dancing in the street on 9/11. And still no one talks of Jordan Syria and Egypt who are the ones responsible for the position palestinians find themselves in today. They are using palestine as a pawn. They say they want peace yet they don't even let Arafat speak to the arab conference. They wan't their diddlying land back that they lost in '67 they could care less about palestine.
I don't even know why I got mixed up in this fight again. I'm begining to realize that nothing is going to happen until they get new leaders over there on both sides.
side note,
Why is it they can co-exist here in the USA?
1. Military targets ?
Surely not. Only few of the targets were military targets. The rest of the civilian infrastructure which has been teared down by the israeli military mob were buildings like schools, police stations or simple houses of people.
To call these "military targets" is like to call the Nazi terror operations in the occupied territories in WW2 "legitime police actions".
2. Dont misunderstand me: I also condemn the terroristic actions of the palestines. But it must beallowed to ask the question how these people became so desperate and fanatic that they are willing to blow themself up - just in the hope to take as much Israelis with them as possible.
Maybe you are right - maybe the palestines have become barbarians. But I say that they were transdormed to mad fanatics by israeli mad fanatics like Sharon.
There are surely intelligent and peaceful palestinians and israelis. But in the actual heated situation they have no chance to act - especially when the superpower USA continues to ignore the daily israeli terrorism and only condemn the terrorism of the palestines.
3. The dancing palestines.
Does it surprise you that in german TV they showed pictures of dancing south americans, when they heared about the terrorist act of the WTC-massacre ?
In the whole world there are stupid people who start to dance only because innocents die.
But to conclude that all palestines or arabs were happy when the WTC was destroyed is nothing more than a primitive propaganda act.
Every normal human being - and I consider that the most people in this world of ALL nations, religions and races are ment by this definition - were shocked and ashamed when they heared about this waste of lifes.
4. Why they coexiste in the USA?
This was the most impressive question, because it has the solution of the whole problem within.
People just want to live - they want to see their children live under safe circumstances and to get some happiness in life.
As long as they are not manipulated and thrown in a circle of hate this concept works.
The IRA/NorthIreland conflict showed us, how hate brought white christians to hate each others and to kill themself.
The ETA conflict shows similiar problems in Spain.
The PKK conflict those of the Kurds in Turkey.
The hate between Serbs/Bosnians/Croatians in x-Yugoslavia was also escalated by Milosevic.
And so on...
The Israeli / Palestine conflict is a special case in this endless row of stupid conflicts, because whole generations in this regions have only learned pain (by personal losses) and hate.
With every day it becomes more difficult to stop this circle of violence.
And military actions could do nothing to stop this circle - in contrary - they just produce new hate and pain and wish for revenge.
To ignore the open israeli terrorism is in my opinion the worst mistake which could be made.
I like the idea to fight terrorism in the whole world very much.
But then you have to fight ALL the terrorism and terroristic regime.
And the actual israeli government and policy is definitivly as terroristic as the policy of Saddam´s or Milosevic´s was.
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Originally posted by weazel
Probably because we don't pack arabs into squalid little camps and deny them basic human rights.
[hehehe you would have gotten a kick out of the paragraph I just erased - trying to be civil but I'm real pissed at life today]
I'm not talking about us weaz I'm talking about Jews here and Arabs here. As long as I can remember, about 26 years, I can remember Palestinians blowing up or killing Isreali's. Yeah Isreal keeps them in camps. What else are they supposed to do?!?!?!?! Most of them want Isreal dead. Isreal is defending itself as best as they can. How about the refugees that have liven in Lebenon for 20+ years? They aren't given the same rights as lebanese. Yet they don't go around killing those arabs. What about the Isreali Arabs? They are Isreali and I believe some even hold public office. They need to stop living in the past and think about the future. What ever either side has done to the other needs to be forgiven (yeah right!) and these people need to learn how to live together. I know that's real nieve, BUT nothing will happen as long as they keep sending terrorist to kill Isreali citizens, that's a basic fact.
This next question is serious weazel, not one of my usual knee jerk pissed off trying to make you look bad questions, I really want to know. Do you support the suicide bombers? They are what's driving this hole thing now and keeping themselves from formal statehood. There is enough world wide support for the Palestinian state for Isreal have to concede. But as long as they are sending in brainwashed idiots with bombs strapped to thier bodies to blow up crowded hotels full of Jewish people celebrating pass over Isreal will be able to use self defence to keep them down, you'd think they'd learn this. Personaly to me Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Yes Sir Arafat and anybody who'd strap a bomb to themselves and kill inocent people (or anybody who would help them) are terrorist and are linked by the hip to Osama Bin Laden and they are the enemies of my country even if Bush is too much of a popsicle to say that.I tell you who I really feal sorry for. It's the Palestinian people who do want peace with Isreal. The ones sitting there wanting the terror to stop. The ones controled by the terrorist dictator Arafat.
Damn there's that memory of them dancing in the streets on 9-11 again. :mad::mad:I can't tell you how pissed that makes me.:mad::mad: I won't type what it makes me want to do or want Isreal to do. Unenlightened moment I guess. And you call the Isrealis animals.....
ahhhhhh better stop before I get all worked up and start a fight with you again :D I like it better being able to laugh at your jokes.
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Very Good post babek-
With every violent response, the cycle of hate and violence is perpetuated.
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Do you support the suicide bombers? They are what's driving this hole thing now and keeping themselves from formal statehood.
Hell no, of course not...but by the same token I cannot support what the Israelies do either.
Nor do i support a government that exacerbates the situation by arming the Israelies to the teeth so they can kill rock throwing children.....our government.
If we truly are going to wage war on terrorism it must be even handed...and that means Israel should go on "The List" too, otherwise we expose ourselves as hypocrites.
The only real solution IMO is to let them wipe each other out, neither side is willing to compromise on the basic issues that cause the problems.
At any rate it's wayyyyyyy past time for the US government to "kick the dust from their feet", our relationship with Israel is not only one sided but counter-productive to Americas best interests.
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Why do the palestinians place their bomb factories in schools?
Because when they get popped,they can rant about all the kids that died there.Sounds pretty sick to me.
The difference between the terrorist and the freedom fighter:
Freedom fighter targets military targets.
Terrorist targets civilians.
It`s that simple...
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Originally posted by weazel
Do you support the suicide bombers? They are what's driving this hole thing now and keeping themselves from formal statehood.
Hell no, of course not...but by the same token I cannot support what the Israelies do either.
Nor do i support a government that exacerbates the situation by arming the Israelies to the teeth so they can kill rock throwing children.....our government.
If we truly are going to wage war on terrorism it must be even handed...and that means Israel should go on "The List" too, otherwise we expose ourselves as hypocrites.
The only real solution IMO is to let them wipe each other out, neither side is willing to compromise on the basic issues that cause the problems.
At any rate it's wayyyyyyy past time for the US government to "kick the dust from their feet", our relationship with Israel is not only one sided but counter-productive to Americas best interests.
weazel
Pick up a freekin history book and see if you can't figure out why we support Isreal and why that is not going to change. Hell we all know the only reason you whine about it is you hate anything the U.S. does anyway. Your garbage really gets old after awhile.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Freedom fighter targets military targets.
Terrorist targets civilians.
It`s that simple...
Simple???? Dresden! Hiroshima! London! Its not ancient history here. We all know people involved in these TERRORIST activities.
Targeting of innocent civilians is a terrorist act. Then when does it become acceptable, as an act of war?
Define terrorism and then decide whether or not your host country is guilty of it.
A devils advocate at work.
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The only thing "getting old" is your blind bellybutton ultra right wing knee jerk anytime someone doesn't agree with your despicable politics.
Face it.... your just another loser who jumped on the *conservative* bandwagon, if you ever posted an original thought I would probably fall over with a heart attack.
Tell me, why do some Americans support Israel?
IMO your no different than the animals killing the rock throwing kids by giving them your support.
I don't hate the US...I only hate the rat faced scum who pretends to be our leader, and the boot licking lackeys that fawn all over him.
Does his shoe polish have a nice flavor?
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Weazel...be nice...or as Abe lincoln said in Bill and Teds's.."Be Excellent to each other"
Hmmm...alcohol seems to be kickin in..OOOODDDDiiiiieeee...you may wanna light another doooby :)
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Originally posted by babek-
1. Military targets ?
Surely not. Only few of the targets were military targets. The rest of the civilian infrastructure which has been teared down by the israeli military mob were buildings like schools, police stations or simple houses of people.
To call these "military targets" is like to call the Nazi terror operations in the occupied territories in WW2 "legitime police actions".
To be honest I haven't seen schools or hospitals being destroyed by Isreal. I'm not saying they haven't, but I haven't seen it on the news. But when the terrorist use those places to hide I can understand why they would be destroyed. The police stations are military targets because they are part of the terrorist network.
2. Dont misunderstand me: I also condemn the terroristic actions of the palestines. But it must beallowed to ask the question how these people became so desperate and fanatic that they are willing to blow themself up - just in the hope to take as much Israelis with them as possible.
Right, I'm not saying that Isreal is 100% correct in their actions. I'm just saying they are acting in self defense. They make mistakes on how to react and in the perseption that gives the rest of the world. The excuse I give them is that they are fighting for their lives and they don't intentionaly go after civilians like the palestinians do, at least I believe they don't. But :D If I were a 18 yr old Palestinian in those conditions I would probobly be pissed enough for war too. So I can see their point of view, but I will not agree with it while they use such tactics, which they have as long as I can remember.
Maybe you are right - maybe the palestines have become barbarians. But I say that they were transdormed to mad fanatics by israeli mad fanatics like Sharon.
Here's where I disagree with that statement. Isreal always gets the blame when it realy should go to the rest of the arab world. If you look at the history I think you will see that the arabs have done them much more harm than the Isreali's. There are Palestinian refugees in Lebenon. They are treated the same way the Isreali's treated them before the new jihad. They don't have the same rights as a Lebanese. Yet this is never said.
There are surely intelligent and peaceful palestinians and israelis. But in the actual heated situation they have no chance to act - especially when the superpower USA continues to ignore the daily israeli terrorism and only condemn the terrorism of the palestines.
People say one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I say to you one man's terrorist is another man's defence figher. The US does not ignore the Palestinians either. Do you think Isreal would be this restrained without the US? Would any country?
3. The dancing palestines.
Does it surprise you that in german TV they showed pictures of dancing south americans, when they heared about the terrorist act of the WTC-massacre ?
I have never heard this. If it's true I hope we cancel all aid to those countries.
In the whole world there are stupid people who start to dance only because innocents die.
But to conclude that all palestines or arabs were happy when the WTC was destroyed is nothing more than a primitive propaganda act.
Well it works.
Every normal human being - and I consider that the most people in this world of ALL nations, religions and races are ment by this definition - were shocked and ashamed when they heared about this waste of lifes.
we agree :)
4. Why they coexiste in the USA?
This was the most impressive question, because it has the solution of the whole problem within.
People just want to live - they want to see their children live under safe circumstances and to get some happiness in life.
As long as they are not manipulated and thrown in a circle of hate this concept works.
The IRA/NorthIreland conflict showed us, how hate brought white christians to hate each others and to kill themself.
The ETA conflict shows similiar problems in Spain.
The PKK conflict those of the Kurds in Turkey.
The hate between Serbs/Bosnians/Croatians in x-Yugoslavia was also escalated by Milosevic.
And so on...
The Israeli / Palestine conflict is a special case in this endless row of stupid conflicts, because whole generations in this regions have only learned pain (by personal losses) and hate.
With every day it becomes more difficult to stop this circle of violence.
And military actions could do nothing to stop this circle - in contrary - they just produce new hate and pain and wish for revenge.
To ignore the open israeli terrorism is in my opinion the worst mistake which could be made.
I like the idea to fight terrorism in the whole world very much.
But then you have to fight ALL the terrorism and terroristic regime.
And the actual israeli government and policy is definitivly as terroristic as the policy of Saddam´s or Milosevic´s was.
The only thing I can disagree with is "Isreali terrorism". If there were no suicide bombings yes what Isreal has done in self defence could be considered terrorism. I hope there's an answer to this problem. But judging by the wars in this forum over this issue I fear that this could end the entire world in a short time :( Maybe we need to move both of them out of that land? Maybe we need to just let them go at it and let one of them die as a people. Maybe we need to just nuke the whole freakin region and let God sort it out. I don't know.
Let me ask people this question. Who thinks there's a HUGE war about to happen on this planet?
i do :(
21st century and it's not much diferent than the 1st century.
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Originally posted by Ping
Weazel...be nice...or as Abe lincoln said in Bill and Teds's.."Be Excellent to each other"
Hmmm...alcohol seems to be kickin in..OOOODDDDiiiiieeee...you may wanna light another doooby :)
meep :D
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Originally posted by weazel
The only thing "getting old" is your blind bellybutton ultra right wing knee jerk anytime someone doesn't agree with your despicable politics.
Face it.... your just another loser who jumped on the *conservative* bandwagon, if you ever posted an original thought I would probably fall over with a heart attack.
Tell me, why do some Americans support Israel?
IMO your no different than the animals killing the rock throwing kids by giving them your support.
I don't hate the US...I only hate the rat faced scum who pretends to be our leader, and the boot licking lackeys that fawn all over him.
Does his shoe polish have a nice flavor?
LOLOL...who saw THAT coming? Weazy, if you ever get over being mad about your potato president having to leave office due to term limits and his crying sidekick LOSING the election, you might actually be able to voice an intelligent opinion on world politics. Let it go man...JUST let it go lol. As it is now you'll get in bed with anyone or anything anti-American. Do you EVER even THINK about anything but whining about your government?
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Sir Richard Francis Burton's The Jew, The Gypsy, and El Islam
in the chapters entitled "The Jew and the Talmud" and "The Continuity of Tradtion" give a scholarly, objective and dignified view on the relations between Jews and Gentiles.
The anti-Zionist American Jew Benjamin Freedman in the book Facts are Facts published in 1955 review fully the origin, content and authoritative status of the Talmud.
Both Freedmon and Burton are in agreement and quote extensively from Talmud text. Many of them can only be described as rabidly racist, full of the fiercest hatred of Gentiles.
It asserts that the Jews alone are the children of God (priestly caste), that they alone are men, human beings, that Gentiles are only a higher order of cattle (goy) meant to be milked by Jews, that they exist to be the tools and Slaves of Jews, that to a Gentile a Jew is under no moral obligation what ever: he may lie to him, make promises and give pledges to him that he has no intention of keeping, may cheat him, rob him, even murder him - and morally it is all right, all right before his God.
Slay thou the best amoung the Gentiles, and of the best of serpents bruise the head
Zionists push for the imperialistic expansion of Isreal at the expense of the Gentile (goy) Palestinians.
Can you recite Kol Nidre for us?
I am not gonna fill this thread up but the fact is you came here with this post to exact sympathy for those poor unfortunate Jews who suffer under the evil Palestinian terrorists. Leaving out the racist Zionist philosphy that has brought this on. Also ignoring the terror of Isreal on the Palestinians.
I'll leave you with a quote from Ben Gurions Diary dated May 21 1947....it may shed some light on why arabs have opposed Isreal from the beggining.
The Achilles Heel of the Arab coalition is Lebanon. Muslim supremacy in this country is artificial and can easily be overthrown. A Christian State ought to be set up there.....We would sign a treaty of Alliance with this State. Thus when we have broken the strength of the Arab Legion and bombed Amman, we could wipe out Transjordan; after that Syria would fall. And if Egypt still dared make war with us, we would bomb Port Said, Alexandria and Chaldea on behalf of our Ancestors....
The Zionist state of Israel never had any intention of living "peacefully" amoung Arabs. What Gurion described about Lebanon was what happened later on. It ended up costing America much more then money. It joined us with the Christian Revolutionaries in lebanon and their backers Isreal. As a result the Marine barracks there was made a target.
The Zionist state of Israel was born out of terrorism and it wallows in it today. Except that America has chosen to back the oneside and that makes us enemies of the Arab world.
I am not a Talmudic Scholar thats for sure , I wouldnt be able to stomach the training, but I have read enough to know what drives the Zionist. Its the same thing that drove the Nazi.....hatred for everything that doesn't orignate from its own.
Lets face it Israel would still be killing Palestinians whether they fought back or not.
Before you use the Jewish trump card "Anti-Semite" let offer this
"An anti-semite was at one time someone who doesn't like Jews....Now an anti-Semite is anyone the Jews don't like"
Whats is happening is Israel today is the realization of years of pent up Talmudic hatred......... [/i]
I copied this reply from another thread.
Go here (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46691) read this thread it gets to the point better then this one.
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Originally posted by weazel
...I only hate the rat faced scum who pretends to be our leader, and the boot licking lackeys that fawn all over him.
Does his shoe polish have a nice flavor?
LOL.
Does it ever occur to you that someone felt, thought or said those lines about every President that has held the office since long before you were whelped?
They're POLITICIANS. They HAVE to be.. or they couldn't win the job.
That should explain everything for you.. but I have this feeling it won't. :D
Feel free to continue your rants. ;)
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Udie, I'm afraid you're right (ergo, my reason for starting this highjacked thread).
Israeli's have moved tanks forward now.
Remember, duck and cover.
{clipped portions of a tirade against the BASTARD Clinton.}
June too hot for an attack? It can get hotter you know.
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...good call Toad.
Well, ahem. Saddam is a threat to world peace. I don't think he's threatening enough to warrant a full scale operation right now, however I will point out that the horrible and terrible United States (just to save weazel the effort) has been bombing and and sending cruise missiles into Iraq for a very long time now. Operation Desert Strike, Operation Desert Thunder? Then there's Operation Northern and Southern Watch which have been hitting Iraq with explosive iron for years now, it's nothing new. Anything new we do now (IMHO) will simply be a "re-arrange" of the rules of engagement and business as usual. Saddam is too stupid to actually be that big a threat to "world" peace, however he is a threat to his own people, his neighbors and Isreal. I guess that can be translated into "world" depending on your agenda. I am personally happy that Iran and Iraq hate eachother. If they ever join hands there will be trouble in the mid-east far beyond anything we have ever seen.
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The talmud is a collection of arguments on what is wrong and what is right.
That quote was one of the questions,and the answer was:no,that is not how jews should treat other people.
I don`t think jews are any better than anyone by birthrights.
I allways tought what matters is where one`s going not where one comes from.
About the Ben Gurion quote:
That was at the time when Israel was attacked by virtually all arab countries.He`s intention was not to conquer more land ,but to guarantee Israel`s safety.
Why did the russians went all the way to berlin?Kicking the germans out of their land wasn`t enough?
It`s the same deal.In fact Israel did stop in 1967 when all the arabs were on their knees.They could have marched into Cairo,Damascus,Amman.If Israel is such an aggressive country,how come they let all those countries intact,and only took a small piece of land as a buffer zone to make the defence easier.
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What you people have to realize is that if you want to critizize Israel because of what they are doing right now, you only have two avenues of approach. Either critizize them on legal grounds or moral grounds. "You are violating the pals human rights when you shoot them or rubble their houses", "you occupy territory that does not belong to you", "you murder and torture palestinians" etc etc. These are all examples of legal accusations towards Israel. As I tried to point out with my post about the legal aspect of this conflict, this is not as simple as some people want.
Now judging from the replies to that post, it looks as if no one wants to maintain that Israel is in violation of international law.
That leaves you all with only one approach left...the moral one. While Israels actions might not be illegal, they might apparently be considered immoral by some.
But as you all know, the concept of morality is extremely subjective. You are very quickly reduced to arguing around personal opinions. And we all know that opinions are like prettythangholes, everybody's got one.
It is really amusing to see some people argue that the Israelis are just as bad as the pals in this conflict. Let me just say that I disagree with that opinion of yours.
On the one hand you have terrorists (by definition) strapping bombs on themselves, blowing themselves up, targeting civilians..mostly women and children. They use whatever means they can get in order to kill as many as possible, and they explicitly target women and children. They snipe at 10 month old babies, they back dictators such as Saddam Hussein, they are backed by terrorist organizations and rouge nations. If they could, they would kill every man woman and child in Israel.
..they cheered on 9-11.
On the other side you have the only other democracy in the region, acting (apparently, since no one wanted to argue about it) within the boundaries of international and national law. There you have soldiers and police officers trying to stop the terrorists from detonating yet another car bomb, stop yet another suicide bomber from killing another bunch of women and children. There you have one of the best intelligence agencies in the world, doing everything in their power to stop the terrorists
...these are the guys that help the US war agains terrorism every day.
Let me just say that I dont understand your morals here when you side with the pals, or when you think both sides are just as bad.
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First you wrote this:
It is really amusing to see some people argue that the Israelis are just as bad as the pals in this conflict. Let me just say that I disagree with that opinion of yours.
Then you wrote:
On the one hand you have terrorists (by definition) strapping bombs on themselves, blowing themselves up, targeting civilians..mostly women and children. They use whatever means they can get in order to kill as many as possible, and they explicitly target women and children. They snipe at 10 month old babies, they back dictators such as Saddam Hussein, they are backed by terrorist organizations and rouge nations. If they could, they would kill every man woman and child in Israel.
..they cheered on 9-11.
On the other side you have the only other democracy in the region, acting (apparently, since no one wanted to argue about it) within the boundaries of international and national law. There you have soldiers and police officers trying to stop the terrorists from detonating yet another car bomb, stop yet another suicide bomber from killing another bunch of women and children. There you have one of the best intelligence agencies in the world, doing everything in their power to stop the terrorists
...these are the guys that help the US war agains terrorism every day.
Let me just say that I dont understand your morals here when you side with the pals, or when you think both sides are just as bad.
In the very least, you are saying all Palestinians are guilty of terrorism. You fail to recognise that it is possible to be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause without sympathising with the suicide bombers. Afterall, there are plenty of moderates on both sides, whose voices are drowned out by the fanatics and ultra-right conservatives.
You paint a picture of the white knights of Israel besieged by the unwashed Palestinian masses. Yet you singly fail to take into account the atrocities perpetrated by Israeli settlers on Palestinian neighbours.
You talk of legitimacy and legal authority, yet you fail to mention the fact that Sharon himself could never step inside the EU for fear of war crimes prosecution. You also fail to mention the international condemnation of Israel's action from the UN itself, dating back half a century and re-iterated in last few months. It's not as clear cut as you make out.
To side with Israel's (read Sharon's) ludicrous actions in the recent past is as laughable as siding with the suicide bombers. Sharon's hardline tactics have achieved absolutely nothing at best, and at worst have set-back any hope of peace decades.
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Originally posted by weazel
Probably because we don't pack arabs into squalid little camps and deny them basic human rights.
one more 9/11 and I'll be all for it
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raze their cities to the ground and slay every man, woman and child. settle the whole place with californians.
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and go back to square 1? Hell no zapkin ;)
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This is the best thread ever.... what? this isn't the one about AHFILM.EXE? Oh sorry, nevermind.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by N1kPaz
raze their cities to the ground and slay every man, woman and child. settle the whole place with californians.
Dude!
No Way Dude!
I hear the surf on the Med sucks and the break is sloppy.
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Interesting thread. Origionally about Iraq, but instantly goes to Israel/Palestine. What I find so interesting is how hot that issue is, and how the Bible tells us that Israel, after being re-formed (as it was some 50 years ago.... I'm bad with dates) will at some point be at the center of a war that brings about the end of the world. Now, I'm no turn-or-burn guy, or end times freak, but it is interesting that you mention Israel, and people get hot about one issue or another. That part of the Bible was written almost 2000 years ago. How relevant, even though most of the book of Revelation is too wierd for me to understand.
One more post, and I am at 100. Do I get a prize?
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thougt I would slip that 100th post in now.......
see what happens.....
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we can't even get past our hangups and we expect them too?
moving to montana sounds good sometimes. up in the tetons...let someone else participate in the world in my place. all this unrest is tiring ;)
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Alright, there's another attempt to twist this thread into a different direction! Before you go any further, read Matthew 24 (specifically Matthew 24:44, but read the entire chapter). :) My personal favorite is Matthew 24:35, which rings true even two-thousand years after it was written.
HEY GUYS! Arkansas has a new round ball coach! :)
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Originally posted by mrfish
we can't even get past our hangups and we expect them too?
Lol no toejam man! We just about murder ourselves over here over this, and we don't even freakin live there!!!!
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Steve, that is a very 'biased fact' you are posting (IE: an opinion) ... I am expecting more balance from someone like you/in your position :(
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Originally posted by Voss
Alright, there's another attempt to twist this thread into a different direction! Before you go any further, read Matthew 24 (specifically Matthew 24:44, but read the entire chapter). :) My personal favorite is Matthew 24:35, which rings true even two-thousand years after it was written.
HEY GUYS! Arkansas has a new round ball coach! :)
You really gonna quote that antiquated archaic study in mythology on THIS board? ewwww the crybaby liberals gonna have a FIELD day with ya Voss hehe.
(btw, I like to put words in thier mouths before they do...I don't really believe the above description of the good book)
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Yeah, we can degrade this thread into a discussion on the definition of the word 'is,' or better yet we can define the word 'BASTARD' and explain in detail how it relates to our former C.I.C. Bill Clinton. :eek:
Damn, another 'fork' (heh) in the thread. When will it end?