Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Apache on March 27, 2002, 03:31:57 PM
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A broad question indeed.
I'm only 43 years old and of that 43 years, 22 years now in law enforcement, both active and non-active (sitting at a stinkin' desk). I've seen some horrible thngs and it looks to me as if it's getting worse. Then again, maybe I simply took off my rose colored glasses of youth?
Interested in your thoughts. We have a unique spectrum of folks in our community on both sides of the fence and some who straddle it, lol.
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No
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At a very basic level, Man (as opposed to man) is inherently Good. Why? Because being Good - caring for our offspring and our kin - is Darwinisticly successful.
Bad men tend not to reproduce.
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I believe God's Word. Mankind fell from grace....our nature is evil in the eyes of a Holy God.
What we think or how we view ourselves is irrelevant to the truth.
Just my faith....everyone has freedom of choice regarding what they believe.
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Originally posted by qts
At a very basic level, Man (as opposed to man) is inherently Good. Why? Because being Good - caring for our offspring and our kin - is Darwinisticly successful.
Bad men tend not to reproduce.
Lousy line of reasoning. If reproduction were my only goal, it would be in my best interest to sire as many offspring as I can and coerce/trick some other man into raising them for me.
Oh... my answer to the original question... I choose neither. I think men are inherently selfish. Getting past this selfishness is what makes us good parents.
One more thing... I've known a few pagans, satanists, and atheists. Some good, some not so good. Theology has absolutely nothing to do with their being good people (or not).
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yes
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nature's totally indifferent.
it doesn't care if you're suffering or not. lots of other creatures cause suffering too, it's just that we've kinda hit on an idea - that if you agree to play to everyone else's benefit, then they'll play to yours.......and it's a let down to see the idea failing in practice.
i mean i could easily agree not to steal from any of you if you would too. then we could all leave our things unlocked and save major hassles - but there's always some idiot that thinks they alone will buck the system and then we all have to go into defensive postures to prevent it because if one f***s up then i have to suspect everyone and you have to suspect me. and that's the way it is today.
how stupid is that? wouldn't being able to live worry-free vastly outweigh the short term benefit of stealing my whatever? it all comes back to stupid people. as long as they're around, that world is impossible without a police state.
the bulk of us are just barely smart enough to recognize that life is more efficient and easygoing with some kind of order. we've still got to live with the ones that are too stupid to get that though. everyday i see people doing what is easiest for them even if it's at someone else's expense. you can tell they just - don't - get-it.
eventually one day maybe we will stop looking to the things like religion that polarize people and erect partitions between people and realize we are masters of our own destiny and play along for our own benefit. we have the ability to make heaven on earth if we were just smart enough to see it. we should take responsibility for our reality and stop tolerating the people who cause so much dissonance in it.
we should all take a hint from zarathustra.
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At a very basic level, Man (as opposed to man) is inherently Good. Why? Because being Good - caring for our offspring and our kin - is Darwinisticly successful.
Bad men tend not to reproduce.
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I don't think Mankind is inherently evil. I'm leaning away from thinking mankind is inherently good, too.
Maybe we are niether.
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Man is inherently Man. Good and Evil are subjective points of view.
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If you are a pessimist, then all men are inherently bad.
If you are an optimist, then all men are inherently good.
If you are a realist, then all men have the ability to be good or bad.
If you are confused, you cannot form an opinion either way.
If you are manic, then one day they are all bad and the next they are all good.
If you are a manical biatch looking for a free ride, then all men are bait for your hook.
Bottomline: It's all a matter of perspective.
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My line of thinking is similar to Sandman's. I think man is inherently selfish. That can manisfest itself as good or evil, depending on cirumstances.
D
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Man is inherently animal at the most basic level. The ability to think and produce long thought processes, along with speech, reading/writing, and an opposible thumb is what makes us evil.
-SW
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Originally posted by Doberman
My line of thinking is similar to Sandman's. I think man is inherently selfish. That can manisfest itself as good or evil, depending on cirumstances.
D
"man is inherently selfish"
Hit the nail on the head
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I'd say man is inherently misguided.
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I think we're inherently stupid.
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Quote:
"Good and Evil are subjective points of view."
And don't forget "inherently foolish".........
Cabby
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Hey! Speaking of the devil....
Westy
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If we are inherently selfish (and we may well be) why do we admire unselfishness?
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Because being selfish is easier.
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Having invented the concepts of good and evil, man is inherenlty inventive. as regards our behavior to each other we are inherently flexible, as most will treat others how ever we are allowed too.
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neither.
we just want to survive and pass our genes. whatever it takes.
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Define good. Define evil. I say man is man.
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Evil, but you have to define "evil". Sinful as "evil", yes. Inherently diabolical and sociopathic, nope.
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Is any man evil in his own eyes?
Wab
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Man by himself is basically good- however, when we form governments and religions we commit evil acts in the name of goodness, ironically enough.
Ask Hitler if he considered himself to be evil, or Osama Ben Laudin, or Timothy McVeigh, or countless others who we consider evil. I'll bet all of them considered themselves to be good, and considered the objects of their displeasure to be evil.
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Like I said, its all perspective.
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Horney....
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Originally posted by mrfish
...how stupid is that? wouldn't being able to live worry-free vastly outweigh the short term benefit of stealing my whatever? it all comes back to stupid people. as long as they're around, that world is impossible without a police state.
If I have something to steal and the other guy doesn't, how the heck does my worry-free living makes him better off? With little to steal, he lives worry-free anyway! If I can make more money per given time working then stealing and the other guy doesn't, why would I expect him to behave the same as me?
He would be an idiot not to steal from me if I give him an opportunity. He would be an idiot to subscribe to my (or rather your) system that benefits me and you a lot but him not in the least.
Look up the game theory in your math book. You will see that stealing is not an idiocy but an optimal strategy based on effort/risk/reward. The only way to modify his stategy is to modify effort, risk or reward of stealing.
It's amasing how many scientists - physicists, mathematicians, etc. somehow decide that laws of nature only exist in their sciences but not in sociology, economy or psychology.
What you propose as a working system is a wishfull thinking no more founded in reality then a legislative attempt to mandate the value of Pi to more convenient number.
So do not hold you breath for the day we stop doing selfish things - it's contrary to the human nature.
Apache,
If by "good" and "evil" you mean selfless and selfish, then we are evil. An "evil" - selfish man who only cares for himself and his offspring/kin tends to propagate his genes better then the one doing wasting his resources on altruistic things. That should not be confused with cooperation - it may seem like altruism but really it benefits the participant.
Sociobilogy is an established science - and this question is one of its centerpieces.
miko
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Originally posted by midnight Target
If we are inherently selfish (and we may well be) why do we admire unselfishness?
Good question. I say it's propaganda historically created by ruling circles of most societies to make sure serfs do not cause trouble and die willingly if needed. A human may be brough up to admire anything. Also I suspect much fewer people admire selfishness then you may believe - judging by their acts.
miko
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"Is man inherently evil?"
Just take a look at a 3 year old next time that is not disciplined by their parents...I think you'll have your answer.
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Originally posted by Rude
Just my faith....everyone has freedom of choice regarding what they believe.
Could you clarify a minor point for me. Have you really examined several religions and then made free choice which one to adhere to? I would like to hear what were your considerations.
Most people seem to "choose" the religion their parents practiced and a small minority chooses the currently popular fad (islam for blacks, buddism for Hollywood liberals, etc.).
Rare people get visited by the deity Himself who tells them what to believe - and while it is often a different one for different people, somehow it's never a vision of a few deities at once to the same man offering him/her a choice among themselves.
So it is very hard to get a balanced view that would help with a real personal choice. As a freedom loving person I always want a choice, so it bothers me that I do not recall making any choice about belief I am currenlty stuck with and I do not feel I have a choice to change it arbitrarily... :confused:
I tried a few times and every time ended up believing the same thing... :rolleyes:
miko
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Man just is. Good and evil are mere subjective creations. A false dichotomy. Usually a religious one, as well (if we talk about it in western terms)
Because of the relativistic nature of 'good and evil', we'd have to take an act, enclose in into a specific time and moral system, and then pass judgement.
Then we could say "based on the cultural values X at time Y, thing Z is good/bad".
Whatever is, is. Whatever is is whatever it is, no matter what we want it to be. Goes for the non theists, and goes for the theists.
Soetimes, a cigar is just a cigar. I prefer to use Occam's razor on the case of good and evil and cut it all away: the simpler answer is usually the correct one.
That humans are basically sinful little loathesome losers - that basic idea right there is the most powerful reason why I shun a popular Western religion.
Am a secular humanist. I prefer to celebrate Man's achievements and potential and work to better mankind, rather than whine and roll around in the dirt wallowing in ecstatic self loathing.
But, you take your pick. :)
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Originally posted by StSanta
Man just is. Good and evil are mere subjective creations. A false dichotomy. Usually a religious one, as well (if we talk about it in western terms)
Because of the relativistic nature of 'good and evil', we'd have to take an act, enclose in into a specific time and moral system, and then pass judgement.
Then we could say "based on the cultural values X at time Y, thing Z is good/bad".
Whatever is, is. Whatever is is whatever it is, no matter what we want it to be. Goes for the non theists, and goes for the theists.
Soetimes, a cigar is just a cigar. I prefer to use Occam's razor on the case of good and evil and cut it all away: the simpler answer is usually the correct one.
That humans are basically sinful little loathesome losers - that basic idea right there is the most powerful reason why I shun a popular Western religion.
Am a secular humanist. I prefer to celebrate Man's achievements and potential and work to better mankind, rather than whine and roll around in the dirt wallowing in ecstatic self loathing.
But, you take your pick. :)
lol, you sound like Bill Clinton. It depends on what is, is.
So, if Man (for qts) is basically good, those of us who do evil get up one day and decide, I'm going to be bad...today. Its a conscience thought process? They don't fight the evil within them that continually strives to be released but instead make the decision to be or do evil?
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I'm insane does I qualify as evil so ?
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Apache,
If you're seriously trying to answer this question, then I recommend the following books to you. They helped me get a better perspective on this crazy world of ours. While they are not the easiest things in the world to read, they are enlightening ;)
1. "Ethics for a New Millenium", Dahli Llama
2. "The Power of Now", Echkart Tolle
Walt (Buhdman) Barrow
"When all is said and done, you are what you are. The choice at each moment in time is: What are you going to be?"
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Originally posted by buhdman
Apache,
If you're seriously trying to answer this question, then I recommend the following books to you. They helped me get a better perspective on this crazy world of ours. While they are not the easiest things in the world to read, they are enlightening ;)
1. "Ethics for a New Millenium", Dahli Llama
2. "The Power of Now", Echkart Tolle
Walt (Buhdman) Barrow
"When all is said and done, you are what you are. The choice at each moment in time is: What are you going to be?"
I'm not necessarily seeking an answer as I'm fairly grounded in my own beliefs and understanding. My goal was to see the reaction from the community. The varied levels of intellect and standards are most thought provoking.
Let me add, it was not my goal to start a war, then sit back & watch. Not that I see that as an implication in anyones post, but just want to make that clear.
Thanks for the recommendations. I will most assuredly check them out.
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Men are inherently horny.
Women are inherently complicated.
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Nah, women are not complicated Curval. As long as you understand the driving force or desire to keep men in total anxiety, utter helplessness, and total confusion, is what empowers them, then all is good :D.
However, men are inherently horny, which allows the above to work.
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StSanta: ...the simpler answer is usually the correct one.
“For every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H.L. Menken
:) miko
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LOL Miko, touché :D.
But, I'll take Occam's Razor any day.
What causes my skin to turn blue when I hit it it hard with a piece of wood?
Alies, of microscopic size, deciding to jump from the piece of wood into my skin and have a Blue Party, or simply blood clotting up for a bit?
:)
Apache, what I am saying is that no matter how firm we believe something is a particular way, it has absolutely no influence whatsoever on how it *really* is - unless you count your own concept of the universe as 'the universe'.
Your point about me sounding like Clinton was below the belt. You shall either apologize profusely, or face Santa's Wrath. And believe me, being a fat guy going through small chimneys is not gonna set my mood to a positive one :)
As to the rest of your question. There's nothing, aside from religious books (of Man's constructs) and ethical values (Man's constructs as well) that suggest that things are loaded with a value ranging from good to evil.
Most thing in the universe are neither. They just are. A gigantic star expanding as it dies, taking in all the planets orbiting it and killing off whatever life was there is not evil. Nor are the planets being engulfed in flames.
Inanimate objects, those. Let's apply the standards to animals. Are horses inherently evil? Cows, dogs? Is it a vicious act a sheep commits when it rips something off an organic, living entity? Is the wolf evil when it does the same to the sheep? To some, it is. To me, it's not
The distinction we make between humans and animals is arbitrary - animals act according to the *instincts* or nature, humans more according to their logical mind or 'human nature'.
It's a false division. There are countless examples of just how we behave like other animals. Our mating rituals are erhaps more advanced, but the basics are the same as in many other species. Aggression is there, like other species. The list goes on.
We're a lot smarter, but intelligence alone does not make the difference between being good/evil and not being good/evil. Again, basing it on intelligence is an arbitrary choice.
I prefer to see acts as either beneficial or non beneficial to a group or an individual, and judge the intent as well. When I use 'evil' and 'good', I use it in that context.
Am not terribly clear I'm afraid. I'll try to retype it or edit it when I've had some sleep.
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like i said miko, not everyone likes the idea of an orderly world. the majority of people, like youself, do better surviving in a world of niches and exceptions.
it's a pipe dream anyway, i'm not holding my breath, just disappointed to see what's possible in contrast to what is.
there's nothing real holding us back, just the constant insistance of how impossible a better world is by people with no faith.