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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: WBHoncho on March 28, 2002, 02:06:38 AM

Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: WBHoncho on March 28, 2002, 02:06:38 AM
our realistic chances:

(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-61/P-61abandon.jpg)

It' a shame too because what a stand out from crowd this one would be!
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: MadBirdCZ on March 28, 2002, 02:11:38 AM
no image just red cross... ?

and maybe we don't need it but I want it anyway :D
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: WBHoncho on March 28, 2002, 02:25:15 AM
I had the link wrong at first.

Seriously though I would pay up to 100 bucks to have this in next patch.  Any other takers?

(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-61/P-61Bstalchrt.gif)

and dont even think I am not serious

Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: MadBirdCZ on March 28, 2002, 02:28:41 AM
Strange... Shes missing the forward firing gun turret...
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: WBHoncho on March 28, 2002, 02:30:37 AM
evidently most of them were, damn thing shook too much.
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: MadBirdCZ on March 28, 2002, 02:43:19 AM
Hmm from what I was reading the turred was ment to be powered and remote controlled but due to excess vibrations it was mounted as a fixed and front firing only on later models...? but maybe i was reading wrong books...
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: WBHoncho on March 28, 2002, 02:44:59 AM
I am not seeing alot about night radar - but something else:

(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-61/P-61nitbinoc.gif)

Dudes, it would seem most of it was still visual (star scope-ish)
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: WBHoncho on March 28, 2002, 02:58:30 AM
of course there is sadly no data avaialble for this bird

(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-61/P-61pwrpltchrt.gif)

What it really come down too is these damn things are alot of work.  

This is such a beautiful plane though, I gotta think someone in HTC probably has 2 or 3 versions on the hard drive already :)  I made like 3 plastic models when I was a kid, I still remember this one.

Do it for the 'ol farts HT before we all die :)  God knows even you wondered about this plane in your youth.

repectfully submitted in public forum:

Honcho
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: LtHans on March 28, 2002, 03:55:15 AM
I don't understand this P-61 Fetish at all.....I'm truely serious.

What is so important about the thing that makes it desirable?  To me its in the same league as the Me110 and Mosquito...lots of firepower, but that is it.  To put it bluntly, it is a target, not a killer.

The only reason to even think of the P61 at all is if night fighting in general is implemented.  With that you could even skip the P-61 and just add the radar pod equiped F4U for an American night fighter along with radar equiped Mosquito and Ju88 or Me110.
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: MadBirdCZ on March 28, 2002, 04:00:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by LtHans
What is so important about the thing that makes it desirable?  To me its in the same league as the Me110 and Mosquito...lots of firepower, but that is it.  To put it bluntly, it is a target, not a killer.


Well if you looking at it from this point of view then we really should get P-61 in AH because US planese is missing a plane from this so called 'league' and Im sure P-61 would fit in just nicely :D Shes elegant, shes black and shes a killer...
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: AKcurly on March 28, 2002, 05:28:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by LtHans
I don't understand this P-61 Fetish at all.....I'm truely serious.



The only reason to even think of the P61 at all is if night fighting in general is implemented.  With that you could even skip the P-61 and just add the radar pod equiped F4U for an American night fighter along with radar equiped Mosquito and Ju88 or Me110.

Yes, it's the night fighting.  Many of us don't enjoy the night.  However, Hitech has done such a masterful job of implementing it, how the heck can we complain?

Night fighters would give us something to do rather than leave the arena when night falls.

curly
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Taiaha on March 28, 2002, 07:39:11 AM
Actually, the P61 was a good fighter as well, that's why it's one of the few twin-engine planes to bear the pursuit code.  It was very fast (so fast that they had to install a complex spoiler system to stop pilots over-shooting their targets) and pretty maneuverable.  In fact at one point the USAAF had a fly-off with P61s against Mossies and kicked some serious butt.  Is it going to outmaneuvre a zeke?  Probably not, but it's a respectable entry into the B&Z class (and with a helluva lot of boom).  It would also be nice to have this and maybe a Beaufighter and an HE 219, nightfighters that could take advantage of the fact that we actually have night modelled in AH!

The turret created severe buffeting in the A version, was deleted in the first 500 or so of the B model, but then was put back when they solved the buffetting with some minor tail and boom redesigns.  Most B models and all C models were equipped with the turret which could be rotated or fixed forward.  In practice it was usually fixed forward, because by that stage they had, for the most part, dropped the third crew member in the rear.

So yeah, somewhere down the line we need this stinking plane . . .
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Ripsnort on March 28, 2002, 07:56:43 AM
Many of you know I've been trying to get the P61 since Warbirds beta (CK)...going on 7 years now.  It served in Germany as well as the Pacific (Many don't know that!)  It was originally painted Olive drab (good for AH!) and later Black. It had the characteristics of the P38 and good climb ability.  Many here are asking for the P61, its about time we get it me thinks!

I'll make a promise to Pyro that I will NEVER post on AGW again if he gives us the P61 :)

(http://home.earthlink.net/~ripsnort/_images/P61.jpg)
On the night of July 14/15, 1944, Lt. Herman E.Ernst was patrolling the skies over the English
                       Channel in his Northrop P-61 Black Widow, "Borrowed Time", when British radar controllers
                       vectored them to an incoming target. Diving from 10,000ft, pilot Ernst spotted the flickering flame
                       from the engine of a V-1 pilotless drone. With the speed from the dive the P-61 gradually
                       overtook the V-1, and Ernst opened fire, hitting the V-1 and sending it into a dive. The V-1
                       explode, becoming the first victory for the P-61 in the European theatre. Lt Ernst went on to
                       become one of the US's few night fighter aces with 7 confirmed victories.

(http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/pmodels/P61b.jpg)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~ripsnort/_images/p-612.jpg)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~ripsnort/_images/p61B.jpg)
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Ripsnort on March 28, 2002, 08:03:21 AM
A wealth of information can be found here about the P61 and a restoration project that is going on:
http://www.maam.org/p61/p61cont.html

Quote
The need for a true night fighter aircraft was well demonstrated during the Battle of Britain in 1940. Aircraft used to counter German night attacks operated by
moonlight, searchlights, and were only infrequently aided by ground-based radar, and were, as a result, not very effective.

At the direction of the Air Corp's Carl A. Spaatz, John Northrop submitted a ground up night fighter design, which, designated as the XP-61, first flew on May
26, 1942.

The Black Widow was the first aircraft totally designed as a night fighter. Its innovative slotted flaps and spoiler ailerons allowed operation from short airstrips
and improved handling; the radar carried in its nose made it the dominant force in the night skies of Europe and the South Pacific. From July 6, 1944, when it
claimed its first victory, to war's end, the P-61 distinguished itself as one of America's most unique fighting machines. After the war, P-61s were used in
reconnaissance, weather research, and flight testing. The first American flight ejections were made from a P-61.

Only four P-61 aircraft are known to exist today. The Museum's P-61 is a B model, the 232nd produced. Assigned to the 13th Air Force, 13th Fighter
Command, it was the first P-61 delivered to the 550th Night Fighter Squadron at Hollandia, New Guinea. After crashing on a test flight it lay unrecovered for
more than 40 years before being retrieved by Museum volunteers.

SPECIFICATIONS:

                            ENGINES:
                          WING SPAN:
                             LENGTH:
                              HEIGHT:
                    MAXIMUM SPEED:
                          ARMAMENT:
                                       Two Pratt and Whitney R-2800 Radials (2,000 HP)
                                       66 Feet
                                       49 Feet, 5 Inches
                                       14 Feet, 8 Inches
                                       366 MPH
                                       Four 20mm Cannon
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: straffo on March 28, 2002, 08:15:52 AM
lovely !
I want one :)

(one of the common point between Ripsnort and me ...we both love this plane ...:))
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Oldman731 on March 28, 2002, 08:17:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
A wealth of information can be found here about the P61 and a restoration project that is going on:
http://www.maam.org/p61/p61cont.html
 


Was just about to point that out.  The location is Reading, PA.

Despite its amazing ugliness and huge-ness, the P-61 was the USAAF's most maneuverable fighter.  According to Craven and Cates, in their official history of the Army Air Forces in WWII.

That is to say, "the most maneuverable fighter."

I think this had something to do with the length of the alierons or something.

- Oldman
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: fdiron on March 28, 2002, 12:55:25 PM
The late model P61 was much faster than the early model aircraft.
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Karnak on March 28, 2002, 12:58:20 PM
The late model P-61 is post-WWII as well.

All WWII P-61s had a 366mph top speed.

Ripsnort,

You want it with, or without the turret?  I'd like it with the turret.  I always thought that made it look better, besides, it'd be fun to sit in the back and try to ward off bad guys while the pilot used the 4 20mm cannon.
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: MadBirdCZ on March 28, 2002, 01:17:05 PM
I want it WITH the turret but i relly do not care if it is fixed forward or controlled. It looks better with the turret! :)
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Ripsnort on March 28, 2002, 01:20:55 PM
Karnak, the post-war model (P61E) was renamed the Northrop XF-15 (Reconaissance role)

The four machine guns were installed in a remotely controlled turret on top of the fuselage  were deleted on many if not most P-61As, I believe the flight characteristics due to the CoG and "pilot's feel" was basis for decision to remove them, and the fact that the allies had almost total air superiority over the battle fields of both Europe and the Pacific. The P-61 was surprisingly maneuverable for such a large aircraft, but too slow compared to other twin engine counter-parts (P38L) to make a really excellent fighter.

To answer the question?  Drop the .50 cal turrets up above(and subsequently lightening it up, as well as enhancing its top end speed) and go with just the 4X20mm.
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Ripsnort on March 28, 2002, 01:27:15 PM
Incidently, I personally like to see HTC fill out the Naval airships alittle more before moving onto planes such as this..we could use a few more Japanese Naval planes, maybe a Perk F7F ;), definately the F4F, etc. etc.
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Karnak on March 28, 2002, 01:38:12 PM
Perk F7F, Perk A7M2, Helldiver and B7A2 "Grace" and you have a "whatif" scenario for the Shinano not being sunk and the A-Bomb not being dropped.

A "one last great naval fight" before its over senario.
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Sabre on March 28, 2002, 02:32:09 PM
Rip:

Quote
I'll make a promise to Pyro that I will NEVER post on AGW again if he gives us the P61.


That's all well and good, but do you promise to stop posting on the AH BBS;)?  Just kidding.

Sabre
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Ripsnort on March 28, 2002, 02:41:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Rip:



That's all well and good, but do you promise to stop posting on the AH BBS;)?  Just kidding.

Sabre


Thats a "Post TargetWare Release" question ;)
Title: We Don't Need Or Want No Damn P61
Post by: Tac on March 28, 2002, 03:17:43 PM
P-61 is prettier than the P-38.

Except the P-38M of course. Black is trendy!


BRING THE P-61 to AH! :)