Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on March 28, 2002, 09:48:16 AM
-
mrfish,
Please kindly comment on the following thread and article.
Antigravity thread on AGW (http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/agw//Forum7/HTML/003759.html)
EDIT: Of course, anyone's opinion welcome!
miko
-
Originally posted by miko2d
mrfish,
Please kindly comment on the following thread and article.
Antigravity thread on AGW (http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/agw//Forum7/HTML/003759.html)
miko
You're theory seems sound enough to me....er... wait I dropped out of school. What were you talking about? :D
BTW, I hope it's "A" too :)
-
well they certainly don't give much info. the guy spins a disk and the acceleration due to gravity is diminished? umm...
i can't readily see how it would work. even "gravitons" are theoritcal and we don't have a collider with sufficient enough energy to really study them. (hint hint funding funding) it seems like you might have to understand their interactions to manipulate them - if you believe in that sort of thing at all anyway ;).
hate to be one of the oppressive community keeping them down but "show me the money" publish something. perhaps a field is created by the device, but that isn't defying gravity, it's just presenting a force opposite to the direction of gravity. that could be done with air or a hundred other things.
i mean my weight on a scale would be less if i was holding onto a pull-up bar. the sole reason is a force 'tension' in my arms acting opposite the force 'weight'. it doesn't mean gravity is accelerating my mass any less it just means the force on the scale is diminished by the tension opposite it. how is he measuring the weight of an object in midair anyway? just curious...
i would like to see how he measure the actual acceleration of gravity as being decreased. it sounds to me like he just measured the weight of an object after the device was on. since weight=mg that's reasonable in a lot of situations but still falls short here. that doesn't rule out the possibility that he was just directing an opposite force and so it's nothing all that new. or for that matter maybe his machine affects mass? now that's far-fetched but it demonstrates how little his results tell us.
in short, weight isn't a tell all measurement in this experiment. he needs to show more conclusively that acceleration is less. i know they go hand in hand but hopefully my pull-up example shows why.
it would be tremendous if he was actually manipulating gravity but it's pretty unlikely. maybe i missed something in the argument somewhere but it isnt very convincing. i'm more interested in their work on new spacecraft engines really. the new thing is to design an engine that tosses out small amounts of mass but at really insanely high velocities. that's probably a bit more promising than this.
-
you might have to understand their interactions to manipulate them
I am not sure that understanding is a requirement for maniplation.
We may not necessarily understand what light is now - that did not prevent us from using torches since the neanderthal times...
On the other hand the way politics and economics are handled surely illustrate your point... :)
Anyway, what spacecraft engine are you talking about? Who are "they"?
miko
-
the ion engine and jpl. i don't have a link handy but there's lots out on it.
they ionize xenon with electron bursts, heat it up to thrust temperature and guide those excited lil bastards out that back at huge velocities. there's some additional magic along the way but i'm not fully read up on it.
high thrust ratio from a little bit of stuff though. it's pretty exciting.
i get your point, we might be messing with something before we understand how.....it happens, look at x-rays for example.....100 dead physicists later and then "oh yeah....";)
what i mean by understanding their interactions is.... what system is he saying gravity subscribes to anyway? i'd sure like to know since it's mechanism is so vague to me.
if it's einsteins argument then it would either be on or off right?, not 2% less on. i mean if gravity is effected then why isn't any other physical dimension of his system? spacetime wraps around the rest of it just fine i assume, all except the object he's playing with.
if you are prone to the quantum physics explanation then somehow he is partially preventing the emission and absorbtion of yet theoretical gravitons. if they exist at high energies then how is this modest machine shielding them? and why only some of them? they should all have similar energy, why wouldn't his field just block all of them, or is the field itself discontinuous? if you can shield them, you can isolate them and people have been trying that for years.
lotsa questions and sketchy evidence...
the technical term is hawg-waller:D
-
so with this guys contraption if I drop my dubee will it fall up? :D This could be a huge invention. Just think of life without seed burns :D
-
"The details might be sketchy, but the basic idea behind the device is fairly simple. It begins with a disc, about six inches in diameter and a quarter of an inch thick, made out of a superconducting material whose recipe Podkletnov has carefully kept secret. The disc is cooled to below -233 degrees centigrade and levitated using a magnetic field. Then an electric field is applied to make the disc spin. So far, all we have is a variation on an electric motor, but Podkletnov claims that when the disc rotates at more than 5,000 revolutions per minute, an object placed above it begins to lose weight. Somehow, he says, the force of gravity is being counteracted--the trick is, you have to get the setup exactly right."
now, how do you measure the weight of something that is sitting on a spinning, levitating object? that's pretty neat....
i wonder which vector Udie's Dubee would take if he dropped it on the spinning disc.....would we get dizzy staring into the disc.....all these questions, so little time.
-
So, is the disc really spinning or is it all just an illusion brought about by the anti-gravity properties of a spinning disc? Is it really everything spinning around the disc and not the disc spinning?
And if we take a gravity bong, and make the tub spin... will that make it an anti-gravity bong???
Hmmmm......
:)
-SW
-
mrfish: look at x-rays for example.....100 dead physicists later and then "oh yeah...."
That would have never happened to me - as soon as I had realized that there was something in the room that can penetrate a thick cardboard, let alone my hand - I would be out of the room in a blink and sending in my assistant (not the lovely one - the other one) - with a rabbit in a cage if he was lucky.
How many things did people know around 1900 that could penetrate a human body without doing harm to it, let alone of invisible kind? Hmm... arrows, bullets, gases, skin-penetrating poisons, electric current, voodoo, curses... Naah... Each one is pretty deadly. What were they thinking, really? As a physicist you must know the history of physics better then most people.
For the same reason, the idea of a neighbour having a space-bending device or even a cold-fusion reactor in his lawn-mower does not really exite me. At least the personnel working the reactors on the nuclear power stations, submarines and airctaft carriers are smart enough to program time on their VCRs... I hope. Anyway, I can at least keep clear of those.
And do not even think about making approach towards your driveway/landing pad over my roof in your flying car - you can definitely expect a barrage baloon or two in your way.
mrfish: they ionize xenon with electron bursts, heat it up to thrust temperature and guide those excited lil bastards out that back at huge velocities.
That seems an awfull waste of energy since the energy carried away by those ions greatly exceeds that imparted to the ship itself - energy is proportionate to the square of velocity but the impulse imparted is proportional to the velocity itself.
Much more economical would be to push away a lot of mass slowly - like pushing from a planet.
Lacking a planet, how come no one thought of using the well-tried propeller in space? Make a propeller few hundred miles in diameter out of the micron-thin strips of mylar few feet wide. Spin it up so that it keeps shape due to centrifugal forces (having two of them counterrotate may solve some problems). Any interstellar hydrogen (~1 atom per 30 cubic feet) gets pushed back, you go forward. As you go faster, increase angle of attack. Near the stars also functions as solar sail. No need to overheat any plasma to dangerous temperatures... ;)
miko
-
Measuring the mass of an object that is suspended can be done. After all, we know the mass of every planet in the solar system.
All mass generates gravity, the measurement of gravity can be done using a number of methods on objects we cannot touch. You can use helium molecules and measure the deflection of those molecules as they pass near an object. This is one of the simpler ways to accomplish the task.
Ion/Particle engines have been around for a long time. They have been worked on for many years. The goal today is to increase the amount of thrust so reasonable accelerations/decelerations can be achieved. This has been the hard part all along. The amount of thrust generated versus the amount of energy required to generate that thrust has been disappointing. Definately better today than 15 years ago, but still needs work.
It is rather fascinating.
-
Mastard spake
i wonder which vector Udie's Dubee would take if he dropped it on the spinning disc.....would we get dizzy staring into the disc.....all these questions, so little time
Hmmm sounds interesting! I shall investigate/experiment tonight :rolleyes:
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
So, is the disc really spinning or is it all just an illusion brought about by the anti-gravity properties of a spinning disc? Is it really everything spinning around the disc and not the disc spinning?
And if we take a gravity bong, and make the tub spin... will that make it an anti-gravity bong???
Hmmmm......
:)
-SW
So does this mean I'd have to breath out to inhale? What does this do to the cough mechanism? As I'm sure you know the cough coeficient is in direct proportion the intake expansion . So could this so called spinning device used to make the anti-gravitational bong field cause lungs to implode?
:D
-
Only one way to find out..... :)
Of course, be sure to have many people around to watch in fascination as your body collapses on itself.
Hmm, if a star implodes and becomes a black hole... would a imploding human body cause a unhuman hole?
Time to experiment!
-SW
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Measuring the mass of an object that is suspended can be done. After all, we know the mass of every planet in the solar system.
mass, but i'm assuming he already measured the mass of the object before. he is citing the weight as his evidence. he is saying that same mass is being accelerated one rate outside the device a different lesser rate inside due to the device.
the way they judge mass in space is based on the ol' Gm1m2/r^2 relationship which this guy says doesn't hold in his machine. weight and mass are kinda tricky.
-
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
would a imploding human body cause a unhuman hole?
-SW
btw, where's GoredHo?
-
Originally posted by mrfish
mass, but i'm assuming he already measured the mass of the object before. he is citing the weight as his evidence. he is saying that same mass is being accelerated one rate outside the device a different lesser rate inside due to the device.
the way they judge mass in space is based on the ol' Gm1m2/r^2 relationship which this guy says doesn't hold in his machine. weight and mass are kinda tricky.
ahhh the ol' Gm1m2/r^2! Missed it by >< that much.
you will laugh damn you mrfish, yes you will.
-
Well mrfish,..you are correct. Mass of a static object is constant, but the weight can change if the gravitional force exerted on the object is altered.
Still this is measurable. In order for the weight to change, the gravitational force on the object would either have to be changed, or the object's gravitional force would have to change.
In reducing weight, it is logical to assume the objects gravitational force changed to reduce the gravitational force exerted on it.
A further stretch would be the object altered the gravitional force being extered on it, either through bending the force around it, or allowing the force to pass through unabated by the density of the object, thus reducing the force exerted.
In any of these cases, the weight of the object could be measured. You would have to test according to what you believed is happening.
A cascade of helium molecules over the object in question would show if gravity was indeed being altered. Discounting surface tension, which you could do before applying the motion which claims to alter the effect of gravity a distinct pattern should emerge in the cascade of helium molecules.
It the weight has changed due to gravity being bent around the object, the helium molecules should reflect this. Instead of flowing in a constant downward path, the molecules would part forming a cone pattern. The amount of deflection could be used to calculate the amount of weight being removed from the object.
If the weight loss is due to gravity passing through the object unabated, the same stream of helium molecules would gravitate towards the object and a change in the surface tension should be apparent.
The question is; Is the ambient gravational field being moved around the object, through the object or being generated by the object in order to reduce the weight?
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
A cascade of helium molecules over the object in question would show if gravity was indeed being altered. Discounting surface tension, which you could do before applying the motion which claims to alter the effect of gravity a distinct pattern should emerge in the cascade of helium molecules.
It the weight has changed due to gravity being bent around the object, the helium molecules should reflect this. Instead of flowing in a constant downward path, the molecules would part forming a cone pattern. The amount of deflection could be used to calculate the amount of weight being removed from the object.
wow that's pretty complicated, i'm not sure i could pull that off. i'd probably stick a cheapo sonic ranger on each side of that bad boy and see if it moves.
good enough for government work at least. guess it depends how much they pay you. :D
-
Oh, that would work, but according to what I read, it could cause a deviation in the intended results of the operation.
I was trying to figure out a way to measure the weight change without disturbing the object.
-
Well, as far as I know, there's still debate over gravity itself... my girlfriend is a PhD in Physics and working right now on the ESA/NASA Lisa Project, a cluster of 4 Microsatellites with a laser link that will empirically prove (at last!) the existence of Gravitational Waves (my gf's field of work), which itself could be the way to the Grand Unified Theory.
Antigravity assumes the existence of an antiparticle of a particle which is, itself, theoretical, the graviton (as mrfish said).
On top of that, it mixes a bit of superconductivity with centrifugal forces and electric fields... I mean, it's like a David Lynch movie, just with no explanation at all... erm well, as I said, just like a David Lynch movie :D
I'll ask Gloria about this article, but my quite uninformed opinion is that no theoretical evidence supports this "finding"... not relativity, not quantum mechanics.
I remain skeptical.
Daniel
-
The way alien space ships travel is by diminishing the gravational pull of a host object and magnifying the gravitional pull of a far distant object. The acceleration would be immediate and the velocity would be virtually unlimited...once we can control the amount of gravitional pull exerted against and towards objects we will be able to travel anywhere in the universe and we will become accepted by the thousands- nay, tens of thousands- of distant lifeforms who have already conquered gravational forces.
Several alien cultures would be more than willing to help us with space travel, but we are considered to be primitive savages among the Celestial Union and as long as we refuse to disarm our nuclear arsinals and quit killing each other they won't share even a small crumb of their vast knowledge, such as a simple cure for genital warts. They look upon us with the same pity we might look upon a bananna slug being sprinkled with salt. It's facinating to see the foam, but My God, the inhumanity.
As world tensions rise we're visited less and less by space beings because the Galaxy is very succeptabe to a particular element of our nuclear arsinal, should, God forbid, we ever use them, and indeed there is a general feeling among the Celestial Union that it might even be in their best intrests to direct a couple of meteorites into Earth to take us out before we damage the entire Galaxy.
Thankfully beings so far advanced have abandoned Conservatism eons ago as being barbaric and cruel, and Liberalism...with its inherent values of goodness and compassion... is Universal, so the CU will leave it up to ourselves to determine our fate, but if launching nuclear weapons on Earth is imminent they will take us out first in self defense...but being good Liberals they will erect a monument somewhere (the Moon perhaps) attesting to the wasted potential of Earthlings, and their sorrow at our fate.
I personally have been abducted by alien spacecraft many times, and I've been in contact with two types of alien beings. My first abduction was at the hands of the Violators, as I called them, since they treated me like a lab rat and never spoke, prefering instead to probe my body cavities for hours on end, and these abductions occured almost nightly from the time I was 6 years old until I turned 14.
The Violators were very tall and wore "Caterpillar" ballcaps and smelled like beer. It was always dark when I was abducted and the examinations generally lasted all night. They ended when my Mom found out about these abductions and we moved to Wisconsin. The Violators were unable to ever locate me again, thank God.
Years later while harvesting peyote in the Sonora Desert of Mexico I had my first encounter with the Sillians. They were barely four feet tall, had slits for nostrils and large bald heads. They were dressed in silver jumpsuits, and appearantly were guided to my bonfire in the desert as I cleaned my peyote buttons.
My initial fear as they landed their large disc-shaped spaceship was put at ease by their telepathic assurances that they recognized me as a special being among Humans and thus worthy of Alien contact.
They gave me a tour of their ship, I gave them some peyote buttons and before long we were all holding hands, dancing around the campfire and singing, although I couldn't actually hear their voices as they only communicated telepathically.
The Sillians and I have had contact many times, and once I even piloted their spaceship after sharing several fifths of Crown Royal, and believe me, you thought cheat codes could make a plane do incredible things? That spaceship could dip and shimmy like a nine dollar artificial lure. One other thing I liked about the Sillians was that they thought my BB posts were funny and they never squelched me the way some backwards conservatives have.
Unfortunately I haven't been visited by the Sillians since my admittance into the Betty Ford Clinic, but I hope upon my release I can hook up with my old buddies from outer space and maybe we can fly down to Mexico in their spaceship, find some peyote buttons and drink lots of Crown Royal and dance around the campfire.
-
I am with you Cyrano. This experiment does indeed appear to assume gravity is a wave.
I thought about it last night. If we assume gravity is a wave, then it is possible to manipulate the wave.
In this experiment, the claim is the object above the disc lost weight. What if, in fact, the object did not lose weight, but the disc's own gravitational field was enhanced or changed which effected the object above it?
I am skeptical about the whole thing, but I do like a good theoritical discussion.
-
My head hurts.
I believe this can all be explained by that well-known mathametician, Jethro Clampit, in his simple, yet brilliant formula "naught + naught = naught"
Cobra
-
Good news is I didn't implode!
Bad news is I stink of dirty bong water because my anti-gravity bong failed :o
Best news, I was left mumbling meep meep all night :D