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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Modas on March 28, 2002, 01:11:18 PM

Title: collisions
Post by: Modas on March 28, 2002, 01:11:18 PM
Could someone please explain to me how collisions work (i.e. are determined).  I KNOW how they work, two planes collide :-)

It seems that during a Ho'ing attempt by another a/c, I'm always on the short end of the stick and end up loosing large pieces even tho the ho'ing a/c does not hit me with any bullets.  I can only attest this to a collision.  The other a/c doesn't seem to have any damage after the merge.

I'm certainly not trying to ram the other guy, but it always seems like I'm the one gettting spanked.  How does AH determine who is the collider and the collidee (if that is a word) .  I am using a dial up connect vs a cable or dsl.  

Thanks for the help

Modas
8=X Cutthroats
Title: collisions
Post by: FLS on March 28, 2002, 01:25:58 PM
Online flight sims do a nice job of creating the illusion that we all fly together in the same arena. We actually fly on our own PC's while receiving position information on all the other aircraft in view and sending position information about ourselves. Because of the lag in position updates you can collide with someone on your PC even though they miss you on theirs. For the same reason lag is not a factor when you are shooting at someone you see on your PC, but when someone is shooting you on their PC, they may be closer or have a better angle than they appear to.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers
Title: collisions
Post by: Puck on March 28, 2002, 01:32:27 PM
Speaking of collisions I have a film of a near-perfect Memphis Belle stunt.  In a B-17, shot the wings off a spit that was silly enough to attack me, and what was left of his plane chopped my bomber more or less in two.

That was so cool I didn't even mind dying...in the tail turret watching half a spit cartwheel into my left wing.

I'll try to get a clip posted (to that other group) reasonably soon.
Title: collisions
Post by: Yippee38 on March 28, 2002, 03:54:39 PM
The Italian plane always loses in a collision.

;)
Title: collisions
Post by: Mino on March 28, 2002, 08:00:12 PM
Just what FLS says.  

If you ram on your FE you take damage.  This is absolutely irrespect of what the player you just rammed did.

If the did not ram on their FE they take no damage.
Title: collisions
Post by: kraquen on March 31, 2002, 03:56:51 AM
IMO a collision should always result in massive damage to both planes..

in the current system, 1 plane sees a collision, 1 doesn't (at least that's my understanding) .. seems to me that as soon as the  'non-colliding' FE receives update from the 'colliding' FE, that both planes should be penalized.. now i realize it's more than just collision/non-collision.. ie which part of plane a hit which part of plane b..  but it seems a wee bit cheesey to me for 2 planes to have a hit/near miss and 1 of them go down in flames while the otherthinks he got a lucky hit..
Title: collisions
Post by: Naudet on March 31, 2002, 04:42:21 AM
Kraquen, that actually not the best idea.

Just imagine you evade a collision on your FE bye active maneuvering, but the other guy doesnt, cause he is too greedy, whiling to risk the collision or dump.

If due to lag on his FE, he rams you. And you already saw that you made a succesul evasion on ur FE, would you like if your efforts are annihilated by a nice crash and down you go, even though you did everything to avoid that?
Title: collisions
Post by: Gwjr2 on March 31, 2002, 04:18:53 PM
Dont know but Fighter Ace back 4 years ago had a fine col. model even with friendlys I think we need that in AH
just my .02
Title: collisions
Post by: Puck on March 31, 2002, 05:37:18 PM
Oh, I don't know.  Without ground control can you imagine trying to take off from a busy field if friendly collisions were enabled?  Given that various fields are at different altitudes you can't hardly even have a hard deck.
Title: collisions
Post by: kraquen on March 31, 2002, 06:02:22 PM
i'm not talking about friendly collisions.. but if 2 planes are close enough to collide, they both had to get there... whether 1 person tries to evade at the last second or not... 1 guy loses a wing and 1 guy gets of scott free isn't good
Title: collisions
Post by: Frost on March 31, 2002, 08:58:12 PM
Both planes should die in a collision every time.  As it stands now your chance of surviving a collision is based on  the quality of both plane's connection.  Both should die so that one person's lousy connect doesn't dictate survival.  Let's face it...in real life if two fighter planes collided the chances of surviving so minimal that making it so that both planes automatically die is not a stretch.
Title: collisions
Post by: john9001 on March 31, 2002, 10:51:24 PM
frost , this is not real life, this is the best compromise for net lag play.

i would like frendly collisions on and no spawning on runway, spawn in a empty hanger or revetment and taxi to runway, and wile i'm at it how about real bomb craters.
Title: collisions
Post by: Spatula on April 01, 2002, 12:04:22 AM
This comes up time and time again. The way the collision model is the best that can possible be achieved, given the inherent limitations of the internet and the lag of it.

For those that dissagree, re-read Naudets post, and then read it again. Imagine from both perspectives.

I sure as hell would be pissed if i avoided a collision (as seen on my front end - what else is there to go by???) and yet i end up smashed to bits all of a sudden. Thats what would happen if a compulsory two plane damage rule existed.

Collisions in real life are a factor of existing in the same space at the same time. Online we collectively experience the arena virtual time from different positions in our sligtly lagged perspective of the virtual time. So it is possible for someone to ram someone while the other party involved was not rammed cause they are experiencing different exact moments in virtual time (ie the two planes did not exist in the same place in the same time, by virtue of two different times).

wow, theres my philosophical rant out of the way...
Title: collisions
Post by: kraquen on April 01, 2002, 12:07:43 AM
1 person is penalized, 1 isn't..
Title: collisions
Post by: Lazerus on April 01, 2002, 02:27:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Yippee38
The Italian plane always loses in a collision.

;)

Just whay Yipee said :D
Title: collisions
Post by: Naudet on April 01, 2002, 03:10:45 AM
And one thing about real life collisions.
They are not as lethal as you all might think.
1st two planes that collide in RL normaly dont hit each other so that both explode.
More often both will miss some parts or if the collision was just a slight touch might even just miss some scratched of paint.

There was a special LW type of bomber interceptor, the "Sturmgruppen", each Pilot had to bring down a buff each sortie, even by raming if necessary.
And from those pilots that rammed a B17, most could bail after they did that.
In RL it really depends on the type of collision.

Edit: I flew in FA 2.5 for about 1 1/2 year, and i say the collision there sucked. Too often i was just killed by a dumphead who would not even try to evade the collision on his FE and BOOM i go even thought i am far away from him.
Also there were some funny effects that a collision could accure when both planes missed each other on both FE. I think FA had some kind of a third FE which was the position on the gameserver.
If on the server the positions matched there was a collision.
Title: collisions
Post by: Apar on April 01, 2002, 08:39:37 AM
kraquen,

You collide on your FE, that means you can see it comming and therefore you can also avoid it, or at least try to avoid it.

This discussion about pops up every 2, 3 months, it has been talked over many times, there is no better solution than the one implemented at the moment. Live with it and learn to adapt to it, it's not that hard. Trying to avoid every single HO will make you collide much less.
Title: collisions
Post by: Modas on April 01, 2002, 11:06:02 AM
Wow, I didn't realize this was such a sensitive subject :D

I guess I'm not looking for a change to the collision model.  I just needed to understand what actually determines who is doing the colliding.  If its strictly a connection thing, which it kinda seems like it is, then I'll have to adjust my flying when the bastages are trying to HO me :D.  Cap off my 100 rounds and break earlier to avoid the collision.

Thanks for the help!  
Title: collisions
Post by: myelo on April 01, 2002, 11:17:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by kraquen
1 person is penalized, 1 isn't..


Right. The person that collides on his or her FE is penalized. As it should be.

The person that avoids the collision on his or her FE is not penalized. As it should be.

BTW if both pilots see a collision on their FE they are both damaged. Again, as it should be.
Title: collisions
Post by: kraquen on April 01, 2002, 02:30:04 PM
w/the system now, you're not playing the enemy, you're playing the lag..

so the result is 1 persons wing gets snapped by an imaginary object

this is bad mm'kay

right now if 1 guy knows he can get a 'ramkill' by turning at the last second so his FE doesnt' show a hit..

if 2 parties pursue an HO to the point where the milliseconds of lag are all it takes to cause a collision, both parties should be penalized or no parties should be penalized
Title: collisions
Post by: SKurj on April 01, 2002, 10:51:00 PM
And now in the time it takes the host to find out if u hit the guy, and the host to get the news he hit u, and then send the message back to both your fe's you are well past the target and you all o sudden go pop...

the delay would create some whines i tell ya!

Especially from the guy who saw he missed you.

Kraquen? ever see planes apparently fly thru the ground?
Thats the same problem u encounter with collisions, you FE and his may not be in perfect synch, he maybe missing you by 5 feet, but on your FE you colllide...

Good the way it is

surely this should make you evade sooner? +)


SKurj
Title: collisions
Post by: Lephturn on April 02, 2002, 06:44:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by kraquen
w/the system now, you're not playing the enemy, you're playing the lag..

so the result is 1 persons wing gets snapped by an imaginary object

this is bad mm'kay

right now if 1 guy knows he can get a 'ramkill' by turning at the last second so his FE doesnt' show a hit..

if 2 parties pursue an HO to the point where the milliseconds of lag are all it takes to cause a collision, both parties should be penalized or no parties should be penalized


You are mistaken.  You simply hit his image, or you don't.  It's that simple.  You can try to HO me all day long, and I'll simply avoid you and be fine.  You'll likely screw up and hit me sometimes... but only you will die for that.  I'll be fine as long as I evade your plane on my FE.  You are not "playing the lag", you are flying against what you see on your FE.  Don't hit his plane on your FE and you don't collide and get damage.  It's REALLY that simple.  There is no other reasonable way to do it.

If you think you have a better system, post it here, and I'll explain once again why this system is the only reasonable one.
Title: collisions
Post by: Vermillion on April 03, 2002, 10:30:28 AM
What Lephturn said !

If you don't play the HO game, you won't die.  :p

Going for a HO is a lose lose proposition for you if the enemy has any sense at all.
Title: collisions
Post by: Mino on April 04, 2002, 12:21:07 AM
Quote
If you don't play the HO game, you won't die.  


LOL...

After all this time, sometimes I simply can't resist this game of chicken.  If the player wants to HO me, then I am game.  

The players who un-nervingly fly directly at you, don't manuver at all and with no notion of any thing but a HO firing pass are often the hardest ones pass up.

I might actually win a HO one of these times  :D
Title: A thorough NETLAG explanation...
Post by: BigMax on April 05, 2002, 11:37:29 AM
If any of you would like a situational briefing on how NETLAG affects online flight SIMMS read Hoof's Page (http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/netlag.htm).  He provides excellent descriptions and scenarios to help you understand it better.  This page is written from "that other flight simm's" perspective, but I am positive they are very similar in operation.
Title: collisions
Post by: Tac on April 05, 2002, 02:07:27 PM
which is why when you're outta ammo and theres a buff flying nice and straight, you can fly under it barely faster than it is, when its nose is at your hi 6 oc and you pull up hard, you fly VERY close to his nose, but on his FE he collides.

And thus... well, you get the idea.