Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Soda on March 28, 2002, 03:17:28 PM
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The Flak in real life was an extremely rare unit as I understand only a handful were ever made in the AH configuration. The AH MA though I think they are an overly dominant unit because of their extraordinary abilities; consider the following:
Whenever I see a flakpanzer I always immediately think of what the C-Hog used to be like in the MA. Specifically, the C-Hog used to be the best at everything, or at least a top competitor at everything. When you needed to kill GV's you brought the C-Hog, when you wanted to killed buildings you brought the C-Hog, when you wanted to kill bombers the C-Hog worked great, it was a deadly HO machine, in A to A and had fantastic roll, was tough as nails, etc etc etc... you get the idea.
Compare that to the flakpanzer:
When you need to defend from fighters, launch an Flak, 1 hit = 1 kill. When you need to kill GV's you launch an Flak, it'll stop or kill any GV in the game within a couple of hits, even a panzer will lose it's turret in a couple of hits and be defenseless. When you need to knock down a town/airfield you launch a Flak, it has enough ammo to take out every structure unlike a Panzer that will expend half its' ammo killing 1 hanger ... etc etc etc. Add to that, the Flak seems almost impervious at times to the Panzer AP ammo(a constant complaint in the forums), the Flaks turret seems strangely hardened to strafing runs from above, and the Flak also can be repaired which makes anything less than completely killing it something of a waste. Typically it seems far easier to disable the turret of a Panzer with an Ostie than to disable the turret of an Ostie with a Panzer.
In the current tour (not finished so these numbers are rough) these are the kill ratios on common GV's:
Panzer 1.28:1
M16 0.74:1
M3 0.30:1
M8 0.55:1
Flak 2.02:1
Last tour they were like this
Panzer 1.21:1
M16 0.78:1
M3 0.33:1
M8 0.54:1
Flak 2:01:1
Amazingly similar numbers.
The Flak had almost twice the total kills as the Panzer in the MA last tour and it appears on perfect course to be about the same this tour. The M16 had only 1/4 the number of kills as the Flak. The M8, less than 1/16th.
My points are this then:
-it is overly abundant in the MA having double the usage as the next unit (Panzer) and 4 times the usage of the 3rd place unit (M16)
-it was a rare unit in real life
-we already have alternatives to it in other units, though no other single unit is as effective in all areas like the Flak.
-it is overly "tough" to AP and strafing it feels more like a Panzer than an open topped vehicle (a constant source of bbs threads)
-it is resuppliable so has an advantage to survivability that all GV's have so your risk of having one killed on you is less.
-it is the best GV for killing planes, typically 1 hit = 1 kill
-it is the best for killing buildings
-it is the best GV against any other GV except a Panzer which it will disable the Panzers turret almost immediately anyway.
-it consistently has the highest kill ratio of any GV.
-it doesn't suffer any firing effects (barrel overheat, reload times), it can fire all 1000 rounds in a continuous fashion. Where do they store 1000 ready rounds in the thing anyway?
-it has a overpowering amount of ammo, 1000 rounds, compared with their effectiveness.
-it's ammo seems dual-purpose, both HE and AP in one. I constantly have my Panzer turret knocked out from the front by one.
So, I say we make the Flak require some perks, 2-5 points, I mean, what have we got to use our vehicle perks on anyway until some new unit shows up that takes them. If you want to do the attack or defense thing and not risk a couple of perks, well, you still have the M16, M8, M3, LVT's and Panzer to do that work. I just hope to make the Flak a little more rare than the waves of them that just seem to drive around all the time defending or attacking with little fear of anything except a fair sized bomb or rockets (of which rockets seem more effective but require an attack to get within suicidal range of the Flak).
Note: There should be something done to allow de-spawning of one when using a remote spawnpoint. All remote spawnpoints should be marked for people who spawn from them and they could use that as a landing pad to disembark and not lose perks (same as on the runway or at the VH at their home field). Other than that the same rules as other perks apply regarding ditches/deaths/disco's/etc
-Soda
The Assassins
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I agree on perking the flaktank.
For all the reasons above and just because there IS no perked vehicle.. and this one definetely qualifies!
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I disagree, so easy to kill. Vulnerable from the air. 1 well placed 500 lber kills it.
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I agree, at least 1 or 2 points.
eskimo
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It turned me into a newt!
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If it was easy to kill from the air it would not have over a 2:1 kill ratio.. I honestly don't beleive the majority of kills in an Ostie are other soft GV's, they are mostly planes during attacks or defense missions. Many aircraft in AH would love to have a 2:1 kill ratio and if they consistently did there would be a cry to perk them instantly.
The Flak is tough to kill from the air, even a well placed 1K bomb needs to basically fall within the graphical crater radius in order to have a fair chance for the kill. I've even had Flak's drive away from the middle of a crater (though it is rare) as the bomb hits. Also, you almost never seen Flaks getting damaged from bomb hits, it's either a kill or nothing. Strafing is what seems to damage them, but it's 90% of the time the engine that gets killed long before the turret. Rockets are what give kills, but using them involves getting within suicidal distances and flying straight.
-Soda
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I disagree, so easy to kill. Vulnerable from the air. 1 well placed 500 lber kills it.
one well placed 500lbr will kill an Me262 as well. should we unperk that?
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Leave the flakpanzer alone
How often do u drive all the way home?
SKurj
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Same could be asked of other vehicles skurj.
I really wouldnt mind seeing the flak at 5 perks... and that if it ditches anywhere on map the player dont lose perks. IF and IF the flak is not damaged (read: damaged, not like the planes where a "ping" can give someone a kill when you ditch. damaged as in something is red on the damage list).
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I agree with perking the osty. Should cost in the neighbor hood of 25 perks.
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I dont mind a few points ...but a good pilot who knows how to kill a flak can hit it with bombs very easy, I think the 2 to 1 kill ratio is over done by stupid pilots that think they can nose down into a 25 degree dive and straff one.:eek: I personally love to see that:D
GW
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The issue GW, is that you can put a 1k bomb.. thats ONE THOUSAND lbs of explosive a few yds from the flaktank and nothing happens. You have to put the 1k'r almost ON the tank or within spitting range of it.
And I wont even say about the 100lb bombs, I bet they bounce off it. ;)
The next issue is the "open top" flak tank being strafed continously and not losing the turret. You literally have to come from a near 90 degree angle on top of it and hit it with a toejamload of 50 cals to get the turret.. and the flak can fire and hit you at d3.0... and aiming is no problem if you coming straight at it. 1 ping, adios your plane goes.
Rockets seem to be the only way to kill a flaktank with some degree of safety.. but you gotta be damn good at aiming them at long range or that flak will smack you outta the sky.
Then you got the flaktank having such a HUGE load of very powerfull ammo... it can kill other tanks such as the pzr with extreme ease, it can flatten a town all by itself using up only 1/6th of its ammo (with all ammo you can flatten town and almost 3 hangars).
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Ok i'm all for it if a ditch anywhere doesn't mean lost perks +)
Cuz that would make it virtually impossible for MG's to cause u to lose perks in it
Tac.. we have no perk gv's atm, so rtb is never an issue. As soon as perks are introduced the rtb thing at those slooooooo speeds will become an issue
SKurj
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I think it'd be easier just to take the lack of rtb into account and make the cost appropriately lower. Would slant things to the defensive side but I'm not sure that's a bad thing either.
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Then I'm assuming we would want AAA at bases to be toughened somewhat. No, I don't care for the laser guided stuff that can hit a 450mph P51 in a 90 degree deflection shot but if someone sneezes too close to a base gun right now, they go pop.
Osties are really a base's only defense... other than the vulture chow which might get gear up and a snap shot or two before dying.
I don't think they should be nearly as tough as they are but then I seem to get the guns knocked out quite a bit by strafing planes.
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Interesting thread
Im in awe of the Ostwind. I cant hit a thing in it. But there are some guys out there who have plastered me with 1 hit from over 2k away.
And they always seem to be in bunches...
Perk them? Sure...something in the area of 5-10 perks. But, i we walk down this "perk this and that" road, then I also think the successor to our F4-C, the LA-7, deserves review too.
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Lepaul, get GTR to show you how to snipe in the osty. Gawd knows how he can hit at extreme ranges that easily :)
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I agree. Perk ostie.
Btw where is GTR? I havent seen her lately...
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Perk the Ostie and make Panzer AP and HE ammo do more damage.
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Interesting perk thread. I looked up the K/D stats of all responders with the exception of DmdNexus, I couldn't find his AH game ID. The results show that the 9 people that wish the Osty to be perked only 3 have more kills than deaths in and by them respectively. The 3 that don't wish it to be perked all have more kills than deaths of and in an Osty.
What does it all mean? :D
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Only if we get another AAA tank, maybe the Wirblewind?
Without the Ostwind armor has 0 chance of a successful base attack.
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Perk Ostwind and add Wirblewind FlaKVierling :)
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>>So, I say we make the Flak require some perks, 2-5 points, I mean, what have we got to use our vehicle perks on anyway until some new unit shows up that takes them.<<
I say fix the dam thing; its porked.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by MrLars
Interesting perk thread. I looked up the K/D stats of all responders with the exception of DmdNexus, I couldn't find his AH game ID. The results show that the 9 people that wish the Osty to be perked only 3 have more kills than deaths in and by them respectively. The 3 that don't wish it to be perked all have more kills than deaths of and in an Osty.
What does it all mean? :D
Hehehe... it usually means that people try to strafe me using nice, level flight from a l-o-n-g way off. If they do that, I can take a wing off at d900 most of the time. It's kind of like the buff guns are too tough threads... fly up a B17s six and you get what you deserve. Come in, nice and level, without rockets or a partner and a 37mm will meet you headon.
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Originally posted by Alpo
Hehehe... it usually means that people try to strafe me using nice, level flight from a l-o-n-g way off. If they do that, I can take a wing off at d900 most of the time. It's kind of like the buff guns are too tough threads... fly up a B17s six and you get what you deserve. Come in, nice and level, without rockets or a partner and a 37mm will meet you headon.
LOL...I'm not much of an Osty driver but that 40mm Bofors gun on the PT gets exactly the same results :D
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Originally posted by Alpo
Hehehe... it usually means that people try to strafe me using nice, level flight from a l-o-n-g way off. If they do that, I can take a wing off at d900 most of the time. It's kind of like the buff guns are too tough threads... fly up a B17s six and you get what you deserve. Come in, nice and level, without rockets or a partner and a 37mm will meet you headon.
Absolutely correct, Alpo!
I use Ostis frequently for base defense,
and mostly I know the names of pilots,
that kill me in one run.
Its pilots like 12345678 , who miss me on the first run,
make a wide turn and line up on me from 2k distance . Har Har :p
One Problem is, that some read postings about the miracle .50s and Hispanos.
Now they believe spraying at a GV should kill it instantly. All nonsense.
The only reliable weapons are bombs and rockets.
(BTW, where is the Panzerschreck2 ;) )
Perking it with 2-3 perks wouln't bother me really. I have enough perks.
But there had to be a place to land a GV at enemy bases, otherwise you will lose the perks for sure if you launch a ground attack.
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I think it's simpler than that... just add a 2 second reload time for every 10 rounds fired. That should tone it down just enough to take the "uber" adjective from it.
Daniel
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Do you really find the Flak more dangerous than the M16 against planes?
Basically, if you HO any of them to make gun straffing passes instead of using bombs or rockets, you will be history.
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Originally posted by Alpo
Hehehe... it usually means that people try to strafe me using nice, level flight from a l-o-n-g way off.
Well, you just have to look at my stats for March to see how I got most of my kills that month! :D I don't think it's a case of the Osti being too poweful - quite a few times I had died extremely quickly when someone has caught me by surprise! However, most of my successful kills have been when they come straight in, as Alpo says.... always has me grinning with delight when I see somebody doing that! Other times, I have managed to catch a more sneaky attacker after hearing their engine approaching and swinging my gun around. This hasn't happened overnight though... I believe my skills in an Osti have improved recently, resulting in my almost 3:1 K/D ratio last month.... :) That and the fact I didn't do much in the way of flying last month LOL. Hopefully, I will continue to improve and get better at catching the sneaky attackers... :p
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Originally posted by Ripsnort in another thread:
if you out of ord, and have guns only, the "Bait and switch" tactics work well, have your wingman bait him by diving in, then pulling out before your wingy gets within a lethal range, meanwhile, your behind the target, just about 3 seconds behind your wingman from an opposite direction, strafing the target. Coordination is the key.
This tactic always leaves me with the "I'm gonna die here" thought running through my mind. :p
I wish I could remember the pair of pilots but I saluted them after about a half dozen of my deaths and an equal number of theirs.
I was spawning near their base and they would both coordinate their runs while their other buddies died nicely around them. I could only sit and watch as they parked themselves on opposite sides at 2.5k. With my engine off, I could hear the engines whine on the dive. As I got my gun on the "attacker", he would break at about 1.5k and I would soon hear the pinging on my turret. Most of the time followed by a diabled gun.
It took a couple of times (I just figured I was being ganged), but finally I saw the intelligence being used... a rarity sometimes in the MA :D
So, I simply spotted the "bait" plane, took a quick shot so they saw my tracer (hoping to deceive them) and swung my gun in the opposite direction and blew the real threat away. I then reversed and killed the other as he tried to retaliate ;)
Of course, when they upped with ordinance... I died quickly. Good fun regardless.
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Originally posted by Alpo
This tactic always leaves me with the "I'm gonna die here" thought running through my mind. :p
Yeah, that tactic has caught me out a few times, I think.... though, like you Alpo, I have occasionally realised and swung around just in time! One thing I am constantly doing while being attacked is checking my views for any others! :)