Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: minus on March 28, 2002, 10:25:41 PM
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game stil not have corect torque efects !!!
performances for the planes at diferent altitudes are marginal in AH , that is ridiculous, dont try rewrite history please
planes fly to well in at 90 degre bank roll , HUH ?
air is nothing homogene ,planes fly without anyturbolence efects jsut like a train , but planes are it not a train , HUH ?
if is it a WW2 sim please prove it !:D
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disable combat trim.
There is torque in most non-LW planes... but even with CT off its barely noticable. I still have fits on seeing an F4U pull high G loops below 150mph.
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Saying LW planes don't have tourqe tac? Ever tried a 109? Tried B&Z in 109's?
Hell, even the 110 (gonna beat up the guy in Germany who gave it two props rotating in the same way) have tourqe, many Allied planes seem to have far less though and don't need much trimming at all.
Btw, Yes I agree with Minus.
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Relax, its just a game.
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It's a discussion Yeager, I am relaxed, I am always (almost) relaxed and I am not in any way mad :)
DON'T TELL ME TO RELAX! :D
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No, I mean that the torque in most NON-LW planes is there, but barely noticeable.
The LW rides DO have great torque.
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<---- Jerk :)
F4u has got some but only on the ground, was far better in 1.03.
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HTC has responded to "more torque" several times insisting that torque in AH is as it should be.
I think, if you want something to actually get changed, you'll probably have to find some better evidence than personal opinion.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by minus
performances for the planes at diferent altitudes are marginal in AH
In fact the variation in performance with altitude for the aircraft in Aces High are anything but marginal. For example, take the P-47D11 for example, at SL it has a top speed of 333 mph and at 30,000ft it has a top speed 425 mph, that's hardly a marginal difference. At that altitude its sustained turn rate is almost a third of its SL value, that's not a marginal difference, it's extreme, and exactly what you would expect.
Badboy
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badoy wake up !!! who a hell speak about some speed ????????
forget the lame arguments like speed :mad: some planes fly high as just on deck , nd i gain not speak about speed only
wonder why tempest pilots histericly awoidet all fights above 16k even vs 109 g 10 series ????
another thing , hard to beleve hitech told no more torque :confused: :confused:
so AH is a air quake ? all lame box games got torque and the uber AH not ?
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Hehehe, definitely a troll, not even a good one :)
Badboy
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He's French though, so he is forgiven.
J_A_B
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go somewhere , again repeat i em NOT french
about the my personal opinion , well i think history is more acurate like your nonsensles ,, if i see red and say red = you say no , no is it black ,,
got bored about you ,and reading thinks about nothing
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Torque deffinition:
When you wake up with an erection. Procede to the mens room. Push it down to drain your bladder, and your feet fly off the floor.
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CC HT. And if you got it bent, you also twist to a side! WOOT!
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Actually all I said was the guys who think AH's torque is wrong and want it changed, need to find more than opinions to back up their claims.
Personally I don't know if it's right or wrong or whatever. I've never flown a 1500+ horsepower plane.
And ok minus, you're not French.....what nationality are you then? You don't appear to have English as your primary language.
J_A_B
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lol JAB, as a foreigner that tutored american-born and raised students in english so they can pass ENG. COMP I and II.. let me tell ya, I find that comment hilarious! :)
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hitech , and ? what have fiziological function due with that ?
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Minus if you wan't a realy answere here it is.
Give me any data , not some broad based discription, but data on alt performance, or torque, then we can discuse if things are correct or incorect, untill then you are just making noise. And quite frankly extreemly rude noise.
Performance to alt curves are listed on our web pages for every one of our planes, AH hits those curves, exatly which one of those curves do you have data on showing they are incorect?
So far when people think they have found problems with it, it's has been do to unclear specs they are reading. When you dig deaper you find what the varence is in the test data. See the 190 f8 thread. We have seen report data that has been requoted down threw the years that is so obviously wrong,but none technical types just take it for granted. (the 205 comes to mind)
Im alway looking at ways to make inprovements, but some numbers I have no doubt about, torque is one of them.
Torque is one of the easy things to caculate, it realy is as simple as Torque = HP/(prop rmp) this would give you an absolute max torque to be applied to the airframe. The torque applied to the air frame would be slightly less do to the gear box friction. We ignor the gear box effects when caculating torque on the plane, so if you wish real torque we could acctuly lower it by 5 - 8 %.
Just a question to you minus, what effect does increased torque have on an airplane ?
If you wish to discuse the technical aspects of AH I just wan't to make sure we have a clear understanding of terms.
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hitech , and ? what have fiziological function due with that ?
That was a deffinition of torque. I assumed thats what this disccusion was about?
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realy ??, so you profite on my poor knowledges in english langue ??
i dont waiting miracle , just some more precise answer, please
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:D Lol HT, thanks for brightening up my day!:D :D
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HT if you say , yes i will push the frekin AH to the extrem modeling to be the most complex and realistic , will aplaud next 6 month , and probably not alone ;)
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find a pre 1.03 version. You will be surprised
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Minus: Name one person in the WWII flight sim industry who over the last 7 years has done more to push the flight model envlope than me.
Just your implication that I won't continue do so is an extreemly nieve post. Now if you expect me to stop all other development just to implement every flight model thing i've been researching and working on, you are so totaly clueless as to the realities of business development that you are not even worth teaching the realities of life. And quite frankly minus, im not even sure you could be a valid judge of what is more real.
Make no mistake, I know the short commings in our flight model better than anyone else,Ive always been my own worst critic.
I also know the right on the number pieces. You just happen to pick two things to whine about that realy are right on the numbers,and by doing so made yourself look like a total clueless whining dolt.
If you think your assumptions are so correct, get off that duff of yours, do a little research and learning and prove me wrong. Ive done my research, how about you doing yours.
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i was ONLY asking , right HT ??
if i any time put question on your knowledges ???
why you see only whines all around ????
we olways just whine , hmmmm
about my research , and your research , they can be diferent
the world was quadrate at 1944 in usa and probably flat plate swiming on ocean for us in europe :rolleyes:
be hapy HT you just puted me on the other side , for long time :(
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Originally posted by minus
i
about my research , and your research , they can be diferent
(
Your "research" has consisted of NOTHING. That's the problem.
HT is willing to listen to anyone who can give ACTUAL DATA. Not just words like. "I think it should be like this."
That's what you're being asked. Give some actual data that shows torque should be different than it is. If not, shut up.
D
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game stil not have corect torque efects !!!
performances for the planes at diferent altitudes are marginal in AH , that is ridiculous, dont try rewrite history please
planes fly to well in at 90 degre bank roll , HUH ?
I was ONLY asking , right HT ??
Bull, now your trying to back out, exactly which one of these statements whas a question.
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Question for HT really and no i dont take a stand on this torque thing being wrong just got me curious and i wish to be educated.
Regarding torque being HP/ prop rpm.
The resultant torque would i assume affect the aircraft quite differently at low and High speeds due to the lift the wings can generate to counteract torque effects ?
For aircraft with constant speed props i expect that you have HP figures per rpm for the engines and are utilising this?
For any aircraft without constant speed props, (not checked i assume some must be) then I assume if prop speed varies the efficiency of the prop will alter and hence the capability of it to transmit torque to the airframe ?
Of course my assumption that constant speed relates to the prop speed could be wrong and it may refer to keeping the engine speed constant ?
Can i also assume that the reason with combat trim off that i keep adjusting aeleron trim is due to differing torque effects at varying airspeeds ? or is it more an airframe airflow effect ?
I also realise its probably nowhere as simple as the above and propwash on the fuselage, wings and rudder would also have differing effects at different airspeeds.
Also if you wish i can run all replies from this point back and forth through a translator leaving some words out and try to amuse people :)
To Minus, part of the problem is we get the general meaning of your posts but i feel we often fail to understand everything you mean.
We know you want to question the torque effects in your 1st post, but some of the others just leave me thinking what the F*k are you talking about.
I know English is not your 1st language but believe me sometimes you may as well post in chinese for all the sense it makes.
Personally i blame the French, as you are living there I think they can be held fully responsible for your actions :)
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told ya be hapy
you are right and i em just a stupid whiner who back up and cant prove anything
what more ?
about datas ??? why to show things that u see already ?/
anyway sory again HT you are right and i shut up
even plz delete all trehead ,
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this is why HiTech and the rest of HTC don't make a habit of direct intervention on these threads.
-Sikboy
PS: does anyone have a translation of this:
i was ONLY asking , right HT ??
if i any time put question on your knowledges ???
why you see only whines all around ????
we olways just whine , hmmmm
about my research , and your research , they can be diferent
the world was quadrate at 1944 in usa and probably flat plate swiming on ocean for us in europe
be hapy HT you just puted me on the other side , for long time
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please forget it , inaf of that , wiull chut up for next 3 years until learn english
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Originally posted by minus
please forget it , inaf of that , wiull chut up for next 3 years until learn english
Minus,
I assure you that your problem is not english.
You are making yourself understood exactly the way you want to be understood.......and you know it.
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ok i em wrong then , OK now ?
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Lol.. Hitech. I liked your definition of 'torque'.
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Originally posted by hitech
Torque deffinition:
When you wake up with an erection. Procede to the mens room. Push it down to drain your bladder, and your feet fly off the floor.
LMAO! HT i just spewed orange juice all over my monitor!
need to give minus a test run of the pestering HT flashing icon i think :D
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IMO, what Minus wants is just a clarification and or explanation. IMO (again) this is crystal clear even with his (our) poor english.
Now we have torque: HP/RPM, but what is going to fight against it and when? the mass of the plane, initially? Aileron trim alone? What about torque at very low speeds? Will prop wash be enough to make the controls usable to fight agains torque effect?
And so on...
HiTech is right in one thing, most of us, while being AH customers, are not aeronautic engeneers, so we may have doubts but no real scientific base to justify these doubts, or even critics. Anyway, most if not all of these doubts or critics come from people interested into improving the sim, so, they deserve a clarification or explanation from those that models the things: Pyro and HiTech. Actually there are several discussions where only players are participating without a single word of the creators.
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HT, when I finally DO get to DFW and get up to the office, I'm taking you to some bar and buying you all the Cragganmore you can hold, just for this thread!
:)
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Minus truly is full of it, anyone who knows his history knows that he only posts here criticising this game while he plays another.
Minus: You've never been on this side, therefore you cannot be pushed back to the other side. Mellow out.
I do agree that the torque in stall speed situations seems low, but I'm no expert on that issue. I've never even flown a warplane..
If we see aerobatics aircraft do wild torque rolls in vertical, it's probably only due to their great power/weight ratio and slightly unstable airframe modeling.. Still it leaves me to think if historically torque challenged planes (n1k2 comes to mind) really behave like they should when pulled vertical far enough to stall.
When torque overcomes the lift produced by the wings, shouldn't the plane start to roll? Currently as seen on another thread, n1k can be driven to 0mph speed without rolling to one side or another. Or is the large stab enough to stabilize the plane due to propwash?
No offence to your modeling hitech, just a coinciding thing that has kept me wondering.
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if i only whine i surely not have 577 posts
and about other side ?
will coment only personaly to HT
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HI
I see torque efects in my 109F-4 all the time. Try this: Ct on, full power no torque; less than full power I get slow roll to the right; full power and WEP on; slow roll to the left.
Unless we all can jump in a time machine and go back my advise to Minus is; fly what you got and don't sweat the small stuff.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
F4u has got some but only on the ground
"torque" on the ground (yawing to one side) isn't torque. It is caused by the heletical prop wash hitting the vstab.
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Its not your english or your grammar that HiTech is judging Minus. I mean, look at his spelling. He is playing in the same ballpark you are.
The problem here is attitude, and then trying to save face by blaming your poor english. We are not robots here, we understand everything you write, even if we make fun of it every now and then.
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how about "p-factor"? Why isnt anyone discussing P-factor?
P-factor is what pushes your nose to the left on takeoff roll, and pushes your nose around when you are slow and slam in the power.
Does anyone else understand the differance? HT models p-factor but doesnt add a lot of if, so it seems anyway.
dago
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how about engines that burn out when on full throttle for too long?
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The engines wouldn't stop working if run at full power for 40-50 minutes. They'd just need to be overhauled much sooner.
Now running on WEP for that long might have adverse effects on the engine, but we can't do that in AH.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Dago
how about "p-factor"? Why isnt anyone discussing P-factor?
P-factor is what pushes your nose to the left on takeoff roll, and pushes your nose around when you are slow and slam in the power.
Does anyone else understand the differance? HT models p-factor but doesnt add a lot of if, so it seems anyway.
dago
Dago if you'd like to calculate the amount of yaw force applied to the aircraft by P-factor and compare it to the amount applied by spiral slipstream I'm sure we'd all be interested in the result.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Just adding some anecdotical data here, but my aerobatics instructor is also an Air Tractor pilot.
The Air Tractor is an 8-ton 1200HP turboprop, tail-dragger, and in the airport where I fly, it's used for fire extinguishing missions.
He told me that he had to apply full rudder AND some brake to counteract the tendency of the aircraft to veer to the left.
This is the closest aircraft in terms of performance to a WW II Warbird that I can see flying in my airport, and judging from this evidence, I'd say some planes in AH are lacking some p-factor.
Just my € .02
Daniel
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I may be totally wrong with what I say, but since I'm in engineering I did have to take some classes in statics and dynamics. (Although it's been a while... :D )
"Torque," as some people here are defining it, is a combination of many factors:
There's the effect of the rotating propellor and engine parts. This is actually what, in engineering, would be called torque. The direction of the force is determined by the "right-hand rule", meaning if the prop is rotating counterclockwise (viewed from the cockpit), the plane is going to experience a force that would tend to turn the nose to the left.
The angle at which the propellor meets the air is also going to contribute. ( I *believe* this is what some of you are calling p-factor ??? ) If the plane was in a nose up attitude at takeoff this is going to also try to cause the plane to turn left. (Again, counterclockwise propellor rotation.) This effect would diminish as the tail came up. This effect would also be present whenever the propellor was not pointed directly in the direction of motion.
There are also going to be effects from the air coming off the propellor itself rotating. (Slipstream effects? ) Unless I got it backwards, this is actually going to want to turn the plane to the right, opposite of the torque and p-factor effects.
Gyroscopic effects are also going to be present. Raising the tail should (if I got the direction right) again try to twist the plane to the left. (By the way, it is this effect that allows an arificial horizon indicatior to work. Satellites also use this effect to orient themselves.)
HT, which (maybe all?) of these effects does AH currently model? Obviously you have torque, I think I've read p-factor is there too.
I'd love it if someone with some real Aeronautical engineering experience to let me know if I got it right. :)
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Bloom25
You're not totally wrong, just a little mixed up. :)
The left turning tendency is from a clockwise rotation. The prop rotates clockwise so the aircraft wants to rotate counterclockwise. This is easy to see by pulling the wings off.
The spiral slipstream pushes the vertical stabilizor to the right with clockwise rotation so the nose goes left. Since it's a rotating force I think you can call it torque.
Asymmetrical thrust, known as P-factor, increases the thrust on the descending blade in a nose up attitude so with clockwise rotation the nose goes left.
Gyroscopic precession results in yaw from a pitch change and a pitch change from yaw. With clockwise rotation the tail rising on takeoff would cause a yaw to the left.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Just for clairification on torque, just change your left turning to left rolling, is easyer to understand.
All 4 eng/prop effects there.
Slip stream effects have more effects than just producing yaw. They also tend to counter act some of the torque do to the slip stream angle as it flows over the wings.
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Minus don't feel so bad. HT spanked me twice this week when I posted whiny BS. You only got spanked once. :)
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HT, if you don't mind, could you tell me how gyroscopic effects are calculated. I guess more to the point how does AH take it into account? I'm trying to figure out how you model the prop itself. (I suppose the rotating engine parts would be significant as well.)
I dug out my old dynamics book, but there wasn't anything useful in there on gyroscopic effects. (Of course slipstream wasn't in there either, but that's fairly easy to figure out from a fluids point of view.)
Kind of an off-topic issue, but how did you ever figure this stuff out? :D I think you told me once that you used to do something with controllers for furnaces or refrigerators or something like that, which I'm assuming was an Electrical type of thing.
It's truely impressive what you've accomplished. Comparing the AH flight model to boxed sims (where it's obvious only minimal effort was spent implementing these effects and then it's often just kind of tossed in there) really shows you do your research. From an economic standpoint there really isn't anything forcing you to model these things in detail, but yet you do. That's something to be commended, and I'm sure most of us engineering type people really appreciate it.
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I studied aircraft dynamics and control a little in school. It wasn't my major, but I learned just enough to know that HT and Pyro have hard job and they do amazing things considering how little data there are for some of these planes.