Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Staga on March 29, 2002, 06:18:04 AM
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(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/ah/JU88_mgFF.jpg)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/ah/JU88-97.jpg)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/ah/JU88-98.jpg)
Edit: too much Famous Grouse Vintage...
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Hi Staga,
"Junkersflugzeuge 1933 - 1945" by Bukowski/Griehl - an illustrated reprint of the Baade report prepared for the Soviets after WW2 - confirms that the 20 mm cannon was a regular armement option of the Ju 88.
"Mappe 01-0530" p. 6:
"Ju 88A-4 - Sturzbomber
Baujahr 1940-44.
Schußwaffe
[...]
5 Zusatzbewaffnung in der Kanzel
Lafette Junkers Firma Junkers
Waffe MG FFM Firma Ikaria
Munition 120 Schuß in 2 Trommeln á 60 Schuß"
('Ju 88A-4 dive bomber, production 1940-44, barrel armement: 5 additional armament in the cockpit
mounting Junkers, manufacturer Junkers
weapon MG FFM manufacturer Ikaria
ammunition 120 rounds in 2 drum @ 60 rounds each')
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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It would be time to add MG FFM 20 mm gun to Junkers 88 with HE (minebullets) and solid bullets. December 2008 at Roukalahti, Finland, Finnish army dig up fallen Ju-88 from bottom of lake Saimaa. It had MG FFM 20 mm gun at nose. This gun was on display at Carelicum museum in Joensuu North-Carelia.
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why'd you bump a 7 year old thread?
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Probably because the forum regulars would ridicule him for not using the search function. Better to necropost than doublepost, IMO.
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The MG/FF took the place of the bombsight, meaning the level bomber type of the Ju88 we have modeled would no longer be a level bomber. If it wasn't a level bomber it probably had no internal bomb bays (dive bombing most likely used the external mounts), and would have no formations. Overall that's another type of plane altogether. If you're going to get another type of Ju88 I'd rather have the C-6 (3x MG/FF in the nose) or the G-6 (4x MG151/20, much much faster), but I don't think we'll see either anytime soon, as they were night fighters.
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The MG/FF took the place of the bombsight, meaning the level bomber type of the Ju88 we have modeled would no longer be a level bomber. If it wasn't a level bomber it probably had no internal bomb bays (dive bombing most likely used the external mounts), and would have no formations. Overall that's another type of plane altogether.
Yeah, I mean, it's not like we have another aircraft in game modeled like that or anything.
I'd love to see this option for the Ju88 when it gets remodeled!
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Probably because the forum regulars would ridicule him for not using the search function. Better to necropost than doublepost, IMO.
Yea, but they flame him for bumping the thread. I just asked, I'm out. *leaves*
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"Overall that's another type of plane altogether."
No it's not. As you said the cannon replaces only the level bombing sight but that is all. It would still be A4. All deliveries of A4s to Finland contained MG-FF and theres official documentation about that.
It would simply be a hangar option.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eQzaiVWh6w
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There's currently no hangar option to remove internal ord and disable bomber drones based on simply clicking one of the weaponry options.
Because of that, it would have to be a different plane, like the A-20G and B-25H have no drones and no bombsight.
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There's currently no hangar option to remove internal ord and disable bomber drones based on simply clicking one of the weaponry options.
Because of that, it would have to be a different plane, like the A-20G and B-25H have no drones and no bombsight.
No need to remove/disable internal ord at all.
The internal bomb bays were indeed used when dive bombing with the Ju-88. The bombing system was a highly advanced mechanical computer, to which you could "program" any sorts of bomb dispersion patterns.
The internal bombs were released during the pullout from dive and could hit highly accurately, just as the bombs from the external racks, or cluster the target area.
It would be just the same plane.
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Add to that that B-25C has option for 8 forward firing .50Cals with formation enabled (3*8 .50Cals...). That is quite a bit more firepower than a single or triple MG-FFM and I wouldn't compare its effect to that of B25H.
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Charge: I've always felt that is a drawback with the AH limitations, that the strafer -C is allowed drones.
Grendel: I'm sorry but you're wrong on that one. Ju88s and most LW dive bombers made near vertical dives. The vertical racks used to store the internal 50kg bombs (slung upside down, by the way) won't function in a near-vertical dive, as they are perpendicular to the ground. Also, dropping them at low altitudes would not be effective, as 1) they are too small a bomb to use on specific targets, 2) they flutter, flip around, and are meant to scatter when dropped flying level [thus negating the accuracy that dive bombing gives you], and 3) the system just wouldn't drop them while diving.
Edit: Oh, and dropping them after pulling up was more spray-and-pray, inaccurate, and about as reliable as dive bombing lancasters in-game now. You make it sound as if it's precision-guided LGBs, but in fact it's more like a farmer scattering a handful of corn into the dirt.
In AH bombs fly through the plane (no impact) so you can dive bomb with internal ords, but you could not in real life. Not with most planes. That's why the Ju87 and many "dive bombers" had trapeze release mechanisms, to swing the bomb clear of the aircraft and its propellor.
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Ju88s and most LW dive bombers made near vertical dives. The vertical racks used to store the internal 50kg bombs (slung upside down, by the way) won't function in a near-vertical dive, as they are perpendicular to the ground.
This alone gives away the fact you don't once again have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
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my what a blanket statement.
LW dive bombing was a pinpoint thing (as near as could be done in WW2, it's why it was all the rage, why several major nations scrambled to get a dive bomber into their arsenal).
The racks inside a Ju88 are non interchangable. You can remove them (and the ability to carry bombs) but you can't change their function or orientation.
It's a fact the bomb racks were vertical. Point the nose at the ground in a dive and what do you get? Racks perpendicular to the ground.
Spin/insult any way you want, in a near vertical dive bomb those bombs ain't exiting the plane and they sure as hell ain't landing where you want them to. That's what the external bomb mounts were for, IMO.
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This alone gives away the fact you don't once again have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
Um, IIRC, Krusty hit the nail on the head there. The Luftwaffe was known for steep dives, and while the Ju-88 might not be so close to vertical as the Ju-87 in it's dives, without any experience or documentation, it would make sense that they would not bother utilizing internal ordinance when dive-bombing in Ju-88s.
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You might want to take a look here: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?p=62483
There is no limitation not to take the internal ordnance if you have a gun equipped. If any evidence would emerge that they did not take internal ordnance when the cannon was equipped it could be a simple option for the same "position" in hangar so it would be either the cannon or level bombing sight and internal ordnance.
Also notice that unlike the "little Stuka" i.e. Ju87 the Ju88 does not have the bomb extraction rack to make the bombs drop past the propeller after the bomb was released making it quite impossible to release outside rack bombs in near vertical dive with speedbrakes on.
With a StuVi dive bombing sight the angle could be almost anything as long as you had speed so that the "pipper" would be visible at a sensible height just prior bomb release.
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It's a fact the bomb racks were vertical. Point the nose at the ground in a dive and what do you get? Racks perpendicular to the ground.
Spin/insult any way you want, in a near vertical dive bomb those bombs ain't exiting the plane and they sure as hell ain't landing where you want them to. That's what the external bomb mounts were for, IMO.
This is a part of a Ju-88 manual showing the dive bombing routine:
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2918/clipboard01hg5.jpg)
Under "Vorbereitungen für den Abwurf (Beobachter)" (Perparations for drop) it says: "(E) Bei Rumpfbombenabwurf: Bodenklappen aufkurbeln". Translated: When dropping fuselage bombs, open bomb bay doors"
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It's a fact the bomb racks were vertical. Point the nose at the ground in a dive and what do you get? Racks perpendicular to the ground.
You keep insisting that the racks were vertical on the Ju-88A-4. Why don't you just check if that really were the case? You just keep assuming things and typing more and more disinformation as you go. There's a reason why HT introduced BS-meter with units in your name, you know. :)
I try not to insult people on this board or in the game but you've been told not to spread disinformation on this board over and over again and just don't get it and keep doing it. All I said that you didn't have the slightest clue what you were talking about. In this case it is just a fact, not an insult.
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Charge: I've always felt that is a drawback with the AH limitations, that the strafer -C is allowed drones.
Grendel: I'm sorry but you're wrong on that one. Ju88s and most LW dive bombers made near vertical dives. The vertical racks used to store the internal 50kg bombs (slung upside down, by the way) won't function in a near-vertical dive, as they are perpendicular to the ground.
I'm afraid your lack of knowledge of the Junkers 88 and how it was used quite clouds your judgement.
Dive bombing can be about any angle between 1-90 degrees. It does not need to be vertical dive. In fact, while Ju-88s could dive from vertical angles, that method was not used much. Instead Ju-88s bombed regularly in shallower angles, that might be described at times as glide bombing as well. Ju-87 bombed in vertical/near vertical dives, yes.
What other dive bombers did the Luftwaffe use, to go with your "most LW dive bombers" claim? We have here Ju-87 and Ju-88. Anything else?
But back to Ju-88. When Ju-88 is dive bombing, for example in 45 degrees dive, the bombs are released rather nicely from their racks in the bomb bay during the pullout, thank you. And the bombs happen to be horizontally in Ju-88 bomb bays, not vertically. Heinkel 111 was the only bomber in Luftwaffe arsenal, that had the bombs stored vertically.
Let's see also here, loose, shorted and rough translation from Junkers Ju 88 A-4 Pilot's Manual, part 12B, "Bomb equipment"
PULLOUT WITH BOMB RELEASE
When pushing the bomb release ubtton
1) magnetic switch acts
2) circuit by R203, R308, R556 and R559 switches closes
3) both (something)magnets' circuit closes
4) switch R500 acts and closes bomb serial release switch [bombs release]
Also now: dive breaks close and adjustment circuits close.
After adjustment circuits close, as the airplane is now pulling out of the dive, the internal bomb bay bombs begin dropping.
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This is a part of a Ju-88 manual showing the dive bombing routine:
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2918/clipboard01hg5.jpg)
Under "Vorbereitungen für den Abwurf (Beobachter)" (Perparations for drop) it says: "(E) Bei Rumpfbombenabwurf: Bodenklappen aufkurbeln". Translated: When dropping fuselage bombs, open bomb bay doors"
Brilliant! Thank you! I stand corrected.