Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dingy on March 31, 2002, 08:33:02 PM
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HT,
How about this for an idea? Adding another modifier to perkies based on country population? Give the overwhelmed countries a slightly higher number of perkies to keep them online and flying against overwhelming numbers?
It doesnt have to be anything major, just something to give players an incentive to continue flying while being ganged from both sides. Theres plenty of new pilots who might be swayed to switch sides to the outmatched side just to get the bonus perks and this would do wonders to try to even out the sides.
The formula doesnt need to be difficult...when perks are calculated, divide the number of perkies by the ratio of currently held bases by the initial number of bases when the map is first loaded. So, the formula would work like this:
Lets say some players country starts the war with 30 bases. They have been doing well and are close to resetting the Nits and now have 50 bases. This player lands his plane which would normally get him 5 perkies but due to this new formula he would get a bit less than 5 due to the numbers (somewhere around 4.2 perkies with the formula). This would be a weighting factor to simulate how much easier it is to get a kill when you have the enemy outnumbered.
Conversely, another player who lands his plane with a base 5 perkies who also happens to be outnumbered by the other two countries, would get MORE than 5 perkies since it would theoretilcally be HARDER to land those kills when the enemy outnumbers ya.
Another idea would be to base the weighting factor on ratio of your country's pilots to the total in the arena. If your country's population makes up a third of the arena population, there is no positive or negative effect on your final number of perkies. If your country's population is more than a third of the total arena population, your final perk tally is just a bit less than normal. Likewise, if your countries population is LESS than a third of the total arena population, you get MORE perkies than you would otherwise.
The whole idea behind this is to give the outnumbered pilots some incentive to staying online and flying for their countries rather than switching sides just as it is to give other pilots an incentive to possibly switch sides to the underwhelmed country if they fly strictly for the perkies.
-Ding
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side balance can change by the minute though so it wouldnt have much effect for more than a small time
Ive seen bish have 50 player advantage go to 20 player disadvantage in under 10 minutes
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Perk points are earned for each country.
Fore example=
Nefari has x.xx points for bishops.
Nefari has x.xx points for Knights.
Nefari has x.xx points for Rooks.
This would encourage players to become "TEAM PLAYERS"
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Originally posted by Citabria
side balance can change by the minute though so it wouldnt have much effect for more than a small time
Ive seen bish have 50 player advantage go to 20 player disadvantage in under 10 minutes
OTOH I have seen knight have 50% advantage and continue doing so for weeks, each time when I logged on. Before knits it was bish.. Lately numbers have been 2xbish 3xknits 1xrooks, and it's not 10 minutes its for the whole 4-5 hours per night that I can spend online. On those nights that I stay awake untill 3-4 a.m. the situation changes around 2 a.m. so that bishops get banged by rooks and nits. Lately as you can see the sides have balanced some, still the general idea can be seen from the pic below.
The problem is there..
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One hour later:
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Dingy, basically agree with you but, why perk points? Or why only perk points? Actually perks are of little usage, perhaps normal points would be a better reward.
Being outnumbered means one thing: you have much more chances of being killed than killing others and getting perks. During the last months (year?) rookland was the preferred perk factory for bish and knights.
A good rule:
Every hour online (and outside the tower) in a country outnumbered by more than 20% by any other country means 50 free perks and 500 normal points per every category. Four hours flying in a massively outnumbered country (even if you are killed over'n over without a single kill) means a free 262 ride ;)
This way people will keep online and "somewhat" happy flying for outnumbered and gambanged countries (that is, rookland).
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This is a good idea.
Mandoble, yours is also a good idea, except what's to prevent somone from ditching a fighter in the middle of nowhere, then going to bed? When they wake up, they get 2 free jets!
eskimo
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Cit,
I understand your point but for the last 3 months that I've been back in AH, the Rooks are considerably less populated than the Knights and Bish during Eastern US prime time. It could very well be that Rooks outnumber the other countries during other parts of the day but the beauty of this idea is that the formula constantly takes changing populations into account. While your country is underpopulated, you get a perk bonus to reflect the relative added difficulty of finding kills and when your country is overpopulated, your perks are reduced slightly to take into account the easier ability you have of finding kills.
If the arena populations for each country really do fluctuate from low to high numbers, then this formula wont have much of an effect on your final perk numbers since the law of averages will come into play. Some days you have higher perk bonuses, sometimes you have lower perk bonuses. BUT....
If the arena imbalances during specific playing hours really are what many have mentioned in other posts, this may have the ability to level the playing field. Perhaps some players will migrate from the more populated countries to take advantage of the bonus or to reduce their penalty. If not, then why not give the underpopulated country a few extra perkies so they can afford the better planes to better fight overwhelming numbers?
I just dont see where this idea has a negative point.
With regards to Nefarious, I dont think teamwork is really the problem we're trying to address. Numbers imbalances are the problem here and having separate perk points for each country wouldnt do much to solve this problem.
Im just trying to come up with some ideas here cause I can understand Mipoikel's and MrSid's frustration. As a Rook, Im going thru it also :(
-Ding
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
A good rule:
Every hour online (and outside the tower) in a country outnumbered by more than 20% by any other country means 50 free perks and 500 normal points per every category. Four hours flying in a massively outnumbered country (even if you are killed over'n over without a single kill) means a free 262 ride ;)
This way people will keep online and "somewhat" happy flying for outnumbered and gambanged countries (that is, rookland).
The only problem I see with this is what Eskimo has already outlined. Whats to keep someone from ditching a plane well out of the way of enemy fiters so he can accumulate either perks or points.
The idea behind my system is that the perk bonus or penalty reflects the changing difficulty of getting kills in the arena based on populations and requires someone to actively fly to get the bonus.
-Ding
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This has been suggested in the past Dingy, and it's still a great idea. Needs to happen IMO.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
This has been suggested in the past Dingy, and it's still a great idea. Needs to happen IMO.
Yeak, I know it has Lephturn :) I made the original suggestion! Since it didnt happen then I just thought I might resuggest it.
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The inherent problem with this is assuming that the player that switches sides is fighting for perk points. I don’t believe that is the case. The player that switches sides during an imminent reset is switching for the win. Maybe the 20 perks associated with it, but for the most part I would think it is to be part of a dominant victory. The whole “no one likes to loose” theory.
Friday evening the Knights where the meal of choice. I was online for a little over two hours. By the time I left we only had two bases left and there were still somewhere between 100-120 flyers on the Knights side. I myself had no problems keeping a positive k/d ratio and in the process took up a Tempest for the hell of it. Although there were a few generals trying to bark, “more to this side, more to that side” as whole I think we put up a hell of a fight. I’m sure some changed sides but I think quite a few did not. I don’t believe the ones that switched sides would have stayed due to any type of perk point change.
I think it comes down to wanting to be on the winning side rather than loosing. Perks won’t change that.
Zippatuh
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Originally posted by Zippatuh
I think it comes down to wanting to be on the winning side rather than loosing. Perks won’t change that.
Zippatuh
I think you are missing the point. This isnt going to change gangbanging nor is it designed to. There will always be one side that gets attacked by the two others.
This whole idea was thought up to address NUMBERS imbalances. Even though the Nits were getting hit by both sides, their numbers were still close to being a third of the arena. This ISNT the case with the Rooks.
-Ding
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Isn’t it that the argument for balancing numbers is a fall out argument to being gang banged? Are you not saying that if the numbers were balanced there wouldn’t be as much ganging up on one country?
It seems to me that the country with the lowest numbers is usually the one that is being ganged up on. So your solution to counter the imbalance in numbers is actually a solution for ganging.
Most of the new players have little to no idea what the perk system is and I imagine many do not really care. I also think that many of the veteran players, although they know what it is, do not really care either. My point is that regardless of how you provide perks compared to numbers it will not have the affect that you believe it will.
This of course is just my opinion Ding, I’m not discounting the idea, I just don’t believe it will work.
Zippatuh
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I think this is a great idea...
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Originally posted by Zippatuh
Isn’t it that the argument for balancing numbers is a fall out argument to being gang banged? Are you not saying that if the numbers were balanced there wouldn’t be as much ganging up on one country?
Absolutely not and I would be one of the first to say that gangbanging will never go away. The only thing Im suggesting is we give players on the outnumbered side a reason to continue flying for their outnumbered side. The only fallout from my suggestion is that MAYBE some of the players on the larger sides would be interested in moving to the lower populated countries so they could get more perk points.
This way, although its harder to get kills when you are outnumbered, you are benefitted by the perk bonus. Likewise, flying for a country which is numerically superior to the other countries slightly penalizes you since its assumedly easier to get the kills when you dont have to worry about surprise encounters :)
This of course is just my opinion Ding, I’m not discounting the idea, I just don’t believe it will work.
At one time, people thought putting a man on the moon was science fiction and not possible. It was only through an effort by the American people that it became fact, not fiction. If this idea doesnt do anything more than reward those of us who typically fly during times when our countries are outnumbered, isnt that justification enough?
-Ding
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Originally posted by Dingy
If this idea doesnt do anything more than reward those of us who typically fly during times when our countries are outnumbered, isnt that justification enough?
-Ding
Actually, yes. Good point.
Zippatuh
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The Rook numbers have been really low lately, where did they go?
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For sure some of the rooks countryhop when the worst gangbanging occurs.. Alongside with the pressure I always notice our numbers drop to half, making defending even harder for the rest. Simultaneously the opposing countries get more ppl..
When I see the hop happen (or logoffs) I sometimes logoff too, it's pointless to try to defend a field alone against a cv group and 10+ players like I did yesterday.. Only to be called lame7 dweeb and a coward for extending after 3 kills lol.
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Seems no matter how many of each country is in the arena I always end up fighting 3-5 vs 1. So I don't quite follow how if my country has more folks on and I survive a 4 vs 1 getting 2 kills and rtb I should get less perk points? If I cared alot about perk points that'd piss me off. FYI, I don't really care about perk points this is simply for discussion purposes.
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Any of u fighting yesterday for Rookland? 80B / 75K / 44R and rookland massively ganbanged and still with 75% of its territory. Yep, it is not a matter of winning the reset perks, it is a matter of enjoinment and fighting 1 vs 5 or 6 over'n over is anything but funny. Only of my squad, four logged off on disgust one after another.
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I think this is a good idea but what if there is 75 bishes
78 knights and 42 rooks, but the rooks and the knights are
hitting the bishes. Doesnt seem right that the rooks should get
any bonuses in that situation
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now i can see the cost of planes based on the number of airfileds a country has, even tho this goes agianst the
reality of a country being defeated.
i.e a country with few bases gets perk planes at a discount,
maybe a country with heavy advantage pays a bit more for
the perked planes.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
now i can see the cost of planes based on the number of airfileds a country has, even tho this goes agianst the
reality of a country being defeated.
i.e a country with few bases gets perk planes at a discount,
maybe a country with heavy advantage pays a bit more for
the perked planes.
That could be another way of handling numbers as well. Maybe its even better than my own :) Base the perk cost of one of the premier rides on the population. So its cheaper to fly one of the perk planes when you are outnumbered and more expensive to fly the perk planes when your country is overpopulated.
Im sure there are plenty of people who would be willing to switch countries so they could afford a ride in the Spit14 :)
-Ding
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Originally posted by Dingy
The only problem I see with this is what Eskimo has already outlined. Whats to keep someone from ditching a plane well out of the way of enemy fiters so he can accumulate either perks or points.
The idea behind my system is that the perk bonus or penalty reflects the changing difficulty of getting kills in the arena based on populations and requires someone to actively fly to get the bonus.
-Ding
Doesn't AH automatically disconnect the player after a certain time of inactivity? I thought that this was the case. For some reason, I remember stepping away from the computer for a while, (I believe I was in the tower) and came back later and found that AH had closed up. My connect was still active tho.
If AH doesn't do that, maybe that would be the solution to people ditching in no mans land and collecting perks. The code could simply calculate the ac or gv postion over time and if it hasn't moved several miles in a certain amount of time, disconnect them. Making the distance several miles would prevent people from taking a gv, put it into a autopilot circle and going afk.
Just my .02 worth
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Anyone who doesn't believe that perk points can change the arena balance.... look at the C-Hog. The perked it 3 points. 3! And it virtually dissapeared overnight. The perk system works. It's very powerful, and I think it WOULD have an effect on the arena balance in situations like this. Remember when you could rack up perks by straffing troop training camps? Yep, I used to hunt the perk-farmers and you could invariably find a steady stream of low opponents during that time. All the evidence I've seen so far shows me that perk points can change the balance of the arena significantly. Heck, one of the reasons folks push so hard for a reset is for the perk bonus you get for winning. It only makes sense to counter-balance that with a perk reward for fighting at a disadvantage.
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lep... I may be wrong but I think the perk system works because it stimatizes the plane that is perked and makes it a target. That would not be the case with country numbers I don't believe. Even so...
If it meant more perk points handed out then I am against it. If it means less perk points handed out then I am for it... If it means a neutral gain/loss for perks then I am neutral.
Arena balance is not the big problem... The problem is organized gangbanging. everyone is flying in a timid manner and afraid to go a whole sector or more only to find they are outnumbered by planes that they can't outrun and have alt on em soooo.... they follow the crowd and fight for scraps. Closer fields would make sure that there were some good fights at a couple of fields at least. regardless of the numbers.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
lep... I may be wrong but I think the perk system works because it stimatizes the plane that is perked and makes it a target. That would not be the case with country numbers I don't believe. Even so...
I don't agree. The C-Hog disproves your point... it does NOT have the perk icon associated with it and it's incredibly cheap. I guess you could say it's "stigmatized", but I think it's got more to do with the fact that people have a tendancy to want to gain and hoard perk points.
Originally posted by lazs2
If it meant more perk points handed out then I am against it. If it means less perk points handed out then I am for it... If it means a neutral gain/loss for perks then I am neutral.
Arena balance is not the big problem... The problem is organized gangbanging. everyone is flying in a timid manner and afraid to go a whole sector or more only to find they are outnumbered by planes that they can't outrun and have alt on em soooo.... they follow the crowd and fight for scraps. Closer fields would make sure that there were some good fights at a couple of fields at least. regardless of the numbers.
lazs
Closer fields may also help, but I think we need some motivation to counter the perk bonus folks get for a map reset. You may not want more perk points in the arena, but I see it as a good thing when you are giving more perks to the down-trodden side. I think your more perks = bad theory is overly simplistic. Yep, you need to make sure not to over-supply the perk "economy", but that doesn't mean we have the right balance now, or that a more limited supply would be better.
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Originally posted by Dingy
HT,
How about this for an idea? Adding another modifier to perkies based on country population? Give the overwhelmed countries a slightly higher number of perkies to keep them online and flying against overwhelming numbers?
I still think any scheme like this is doomed, because it doesn't take into account the times when the two smaller countries combine their energies against the largest one.
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right pbirmngham
as I mentioned above, it shouldnt be based on population
since that could change at an instant, or the small country may be in cahoots w a larger country to assault the 3rd country.
It could be based on the number of airfields.
lets look into the majic mirror.....
Your country is down to 3 airbases, your pissed, you got a
12pack of Schlitz lite, and your ready for some fun, except
the other 2 teams are pounding mercilessly, and a fricken
262 goes for 200pts? Your lucky to get it off the end of the
runway in these conditions, but wait, the new system goes into
effect. 3 airbases is 10% of what you started with,
therefore a 262 is 10% of what its original cost is. Hehe,
pop cold frostly schitz, and hop into a 262 at
20 perks, and have a blast !!!
that way nobody gets rewarded any perks, u just get planes at
a discount.
Hmm, i kinda like this plan.
:cool: :
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lep... I disagree.. I think the Chog has been stigmatized. Why hoard points? boo koo of em and if I take a Chog I just stay the same or gain a few more. It is about neutral for gain loss and.... it really isn't much of a plane. It hardly needs to be perked at all. Everyone could afford it... Why don't they? It has such a slim advantage if any over non perked rides and.... it is stigmatized. It may not be targeted because it hasn't got the icon but it is stigmatized none the less. Give it a CHog icon and it will be used even less.
it really boils down to the fact that the perk system keeps out (in varying degrees) planes that should never be in the arena in the first place or, at least not in the hands of the most capable pilots.
If the premis is..... "we need to have a way to get late/uber planes into the arena without unbalancing the gameplay" then.... The perk system works by.... failing to work... It has so far failed to get perk planes in the arena but it hasn't unbalanced the arena as a whole... The people who want to fly perk planes are starting a multitude of threads trying to get them into players hands more easily which will in turn destroy gameplay.
you can have a lot of perk rides in the arena or you can have good gameplay... you can't have both. For most of us... the less perk rides we encounter in the arena the better.
lazs
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Originally posted by eskimo2
This is a good idea.
Mandoble, yours is also a good idea, except what's to prevent somone from ditching a fighter in the middle of nowhere, then going to bed? When they wake up, they get 2 free jets!
eskimo
How about this for a solution...
The perk clock stops ticking unless you get a: {kill, assist, destroy a gun, receive damage, etc} at least every XX minutes. So if you are participating, you earn points. Park your plane in the back 40 and you stop earning points after 20 minutes (for examle).
eskimo