Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Curval on April 01, 2002, 08:05:27 AM
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A while ago HTC was advertising for a marketing position and I just read in another thread that they have started to advertise in another flight magazine.
While it does make sense to target flight enthusiat types in this sort of publication I wonder if HTC aren't "beating a dead horse" with this target market.
What I mean by this is that the guys (and girls) who are already serious flight enthusiasts have more than likely evaluated the various online flight sims and have made their choices as to whether they will fly online, and if so with which company. By targeting this audience you are preaching to the converted...and you are simply fighting over the same market share with the other online sims.
Why not try something new?
Whenever I mention AH in conversation 99.9% of the people I talk to were not even aware that sims such as this exist. When I go on to explain what the game is all about and how much fun it is these same people seem interested but as they have not seen or heard about such things in mainstream advertising they assume that it is limited to pilot types or kids who enjoy video games.
There is SOOOOOOO much potential for HTC here.
Agree/Disagree? Suggestions?
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I never would have gotten involved with flight sims or online flight sims if my friend Whitey hadn't introduced me to them. (Whitey was the leader of a living history aviation club that I belonged to.) I know that my brother (0osik) also wouldn't have gotten involved if I hadn't shown hi AH. (0osik was into computer games and has always had an interest in WWII, but hadn't tried online sims.) A cousin and uncle have also started, because of our interest. I have also attempted to recruit at least 50 strangers (but aviation enthusiasts) into AH. I can't say that any of them actually even looked into downloading the game, perhaps a few, maybe none.
The one thing that myself and these folks have in common is that we were not lured into AH from other flight sims. The greatest market out there is aviation enthusiast and/or PC gamers.
I would start with RC aircraft modelers. I am amazed as to how big of a hobby RC planes are. 170,000 people are registered with the AMA and there are 2500 clubs. RC modelers are used to spending big bucks on their hobby and could afford PCs and Internet costs and would laugh at $15 a month fee. Place an add in RCM magazine or Model Airplane News.
Aviation enthusiasts might be the biggest untapped market.
I subscribe to Aviation History magazine. Great magazine, often reviews boxed-sims. I think they mentioned AH once. Aces High needs an add in this magazine!
eskimo
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What do you suggest? Advertising in the markets where people are more likely to play our game makes sense to me. We're not going to put up an ad in Big Bopper next that swanky N'Sync article or slap an ad inside Oprah Magazine. ;)
By the way, look for AH ads in the newest issues of Computer Gaming World and Model Aviation. Also, not sure if they are in there yet, but look in Smithsonian Air and Space Magazine and Flight Journal.
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Okay, you want my suggestion:
30 second TV ad.
Storyboard a mission flown by VMF 323, or another squad (but if ya want the most bang for your buck stick with VMF323.;) )
Edit it down to 30 seconds showing some awesome explosions...wings coming off the various rook/bish aircraft being shot down...lots of chat worked into the ad...(i.e. "ten O'clock low...he's coming around on you"..etc) Some heavy thrash guitar playing in the background...you got yerself a winner!
Show that ad during prime time and you will find yourselves inundated with new players!
Yes, I realise that it would be expensive, but ya gotta spend money to make money.
And...I would make sure that you could handle 10,000 new players overnight.
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
, but look in Smithsonian Air and Space Magazine and Flight Journal.
Flight journal has a monthly Flight Sim review, I'd hope you could get one (a review) in there, this is a very popular magazine amongst the engineer community at Boeing (and all "Musuem of Flight " members get a free publication for being a member).
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I hope ads in the AMA mag help you. :)
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
By the way, look for AH ads in the newest issues of Computer Gaming World and Model Aviation. Also, not sure if they are in there yet, but look in Smithsonian Air and Space Magazine and Flight Journal.
I hear a dead horse being flogged!
:p
Superfly....honestly, you guys need to think about people who would be interested in flight sims, but who don't read this kind of mag. I have never even opened a Gaming magazine, or a Flight Journal, but you will find that I will be a long time member. I was told about it by a friend of mine.
Now, if I had seen a cool ad on TV showing me what the graphics actually look like, cool features such as voice communication actually working! and intense action I would have been ALL OVER IT!
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Yeah, Superfly, get a damn ad in the superbowl already! :D
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I think you're on to something Curval. If market demographics and adjacent programing were taken into account, the targeted audience could be hit with a very effective and dramatic 20 - 30 second exposure to Aces High combat and a website address. It would speak for itself. We are seeing more and more games advertised this way. It isn't cheap, though...
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Originally posted by Lance
Yeah, Superfly, get a damn ad in the superbowl already! :D
You just spent a million!
:D
Doesn't need to be in the Superbowl....but I like the way you think Lance.
Gunthr....EXACTLY!!!
The cost would be limited to editing time and the base cost of running the ad. AH film would basically do the rest! Hell, I'll volunteer to be shot down in a ball of flames for the ad! I'm sure we would get a huge response from the community to be a part of it.
Thinking big is how you GET big.
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What made ALL the flight sims prosper was the old AOL Air Warrior play for free days. How many newbies are going to start playing in the MA and stick around if they're getting vulched every flight? Not to sound harsh here, but AH doesn't exactly have the friendliest on-line community towards New Users, and the first time I flew AH, bout 10 months ago at the urging of AW squadies who'd made the jump, I was impressed with what a "closed" club it seemed to be.
As long as new users will be treated like fresh meat thrown into the Lion's Den every time they fly in the MA then the retention rate for new players will be extremely low.
HiTech should cut a deal with AOL and offer a free version on AOL's servers for six months or so. Maybe use a limited plane set and different map, and maybe block out the IPs of existing players to prevent some of the seasoned "sportsmen" from jumping over to AOL for some easy seal-clubbing. Bottom line is, players have to actually fly against players of similar ability to get hooked, and that can't happen on Hi-Tech's sites.
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I see where you are all coming from, and I agree with you too. This is why we are looking for a marketing person. We don't have those kind of l33t skillz.
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I like Curval's idea.
I got involved because I'm an airplane nut, and I saw an ad for AW on AOL. Maybe a popup on AOL or any other popular online location would be more beneficial. Maybe it could lead to a flash movie, similar to Curval's commercial. This gives you a demographic of computer owners and users with most of the hardware already in hand.
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
I see where you are all coming from, and I agree with you too. This is why we are looking for a marketing person. We don't have those kind of l33t skillz.
Didn't you already hire someone?
eskimo
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
I see where you are all coming from, and I agree with you too. This is why we are looking for a marketing person. We don't have those kind of l33t skillz.
Dude, ya don't need to pay someone for coming up with ideas...leave that to us!
As far as demographic studies etc..pay for it on a case by case basis.
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Originally posted by Curval
Dude, ya don't need to pay someone for coming up with ideas...leave that to us!
As far as demographic studies etc..pay for it on a case by case basis.
Curval,
Marketing folks do much more than come up with ideas...
A person who can make the right decisions as to where and how to advertise is well worth the salary. I'm sure that BB posters can come up with lots of ideas for advertising... Sorting through all of the available options and choosing the most efficient methods is what counts.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Curval,
Marketing folks do much more than come up with ideas...
A person who can make the right decisions as to where and how to advertise is well worth the salary. I'm sure that BB posters can come up with lots of ideas for advertising... Sorting through all of the available options and choosing the most efficient methods is what counts.
eskimo
I know, I know..I was being flippant.
Fact is though...a marketing guy can only present options. Hitech is gonna have the final word no matter what the marketing guys say.
Also, in my experience the marketing types have been wrong as many times as they have been right! You can survey the demographics and calculate all the standard deviations you want, but marketing has always seemed to be "hit and miss" to me!
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I discovered AH purely by chance, I went over to BigWorms apartment he showed me some basic stuff and I've been hooked ever since. Except for Tachyeon I have never played an online game before this. One reason I decided to play was because I just got a cable modem. I read those gaming magazines occasionally but I dont think I would have ever played or download Aces High based on an ad, because there are so many games out there to choose from. You have to get it in their hands, get them in the game.
Movie idea is good too 30 sec spot.
My suggestions for marketing would be
1. An insert or something when people sign up for DSL or Cable
2 You could do the AOL thing and just mail out Aces High on CD
Select a test area and mail out the cds
Also putting Aces High on those demo cds the gaming magazines put out wouldnt hurt either.
3. Have a display with free copies of the CD at checkout stands at electronic stores and or hobby stores, like Best Buy, CompUSA, Hobby Lobby, anyplace that sells pc games or RC planes.
4. Local PC shops, work out a deal to include a copy of Aces High with new pc purchase.
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They also need to do something to KEEP those new players here.
The learning curve in AH is really, really steep.
J_A_B
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Reminds me of what a CEO said at a stockholder's meeting (roughly). A lady got up during the question/answer period and said:
"It seems to me you're spending far too much on marketing & advertising."
CEO says.... "You know something, I think 90% of advertising is BS. The problem is, I don't know which of it is the 10% that works."
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I always heard "Marketing" was "Sales" only with a degree, and without the pay.
:)
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90% of the people I've told about Aces High have tried it and now actively play it.
There's a lot of potential with the people who haven't been reached. Most of those people aren't active web users even, still they get excited about AH. That's why it could - could - be beneficial to advertise outside the web too.
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One thing that would really help newbies is being able to start in the air - 10k-20k - and thus have a certain amount of E. This is because they'll look for a field with some action, try to up, and likely get vulched. If they were to start in the air, then that would give them a safety net.
And there should be a beginners' arena.
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Air starts could be used in the beginner arena but that's a very dangerous path.
We've all seen what happens with the relaxed realism arenas, FA3 being a good example. It's better to force the newbies to learn something new instead of just point&shoot.
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
I see where you are all coming from, and I agree with you too. This is why we are looking for a marketing person. We don't have those kind of l33t skillz.
Heya Fly, The problems with flight sims is a built-in diminishing player base with few new players becoming involved due to the steep learning curve. If the game is made more arcade-like then the old time players would jump to War Birds.
Gaming magazines are limited in scope because those that read them are generally looking for a CD off-line game or a game that's easy to master, and Aces High is in an absolute niche market and is offered up without compromise in flight modeling, which is how it should be.
How bout a New Users Only arena available to players for the first six months of membership, maybe made available by link from various WW2 Aviation sites? Face it, for any new player to put up with the steep learning curve they would have to love WW2 aircraft, and the average reader of Gamer magazines doesn't fit that profile.
I'm not sure AOL would be interested in offering AH as a free service, but I'd check out that angle too. Most of us aren't AOL subscribers so I don't think it would cut into the player base too terribly much.
A bigger problem, in my view, is how do you keep new players? AW had a great support community where organized training missions were run (once again, New Users Arena would be useful). You guys should tap this resource of the many players who WOULD be willing to become volunteer staffers.
Somebody doing a free 2-week trial, getting vulched every flight where they aren't crashing, will leave at the end of the two week period rather than PAY to die every flight. A New Users Arena might make people more interested in sticking around if 1) They actually get answers to questions from an on-line staffer and 2) They are matched against players of roughly their same skill level.
Bottom line is, Aces High has to be fun to keep a New User, and getting waxed in MA every flight isn't fun. Just my 2 cents worth, but good luck.
PS- To the Aces High Community- Do what you can to help out the new guys. Take some time, be patient with them, show them the ropes. And PROMOTE Aces High. Let's not what happpened to AW happen here.
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Get Tech-TV to interview and tour AH!!
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Originally posted by mrsid2
Air starts could be used in the beginner arena but that's a very dangerous path.
We've all seen what happens with the relaxed realism arenas, FA3 being a good example. It's better to force the newbies to learn something new instead of just point&shoot.
I don't think air starts are necessary at all. For one thing you can use the auto take off function (although I have never even tried it), but the other thing is that take offs are the easiest thing to do in AH. (Unless trying to take off in a fully loaded F4UD on a carrier...but, I digress) If a newbie keeps getting shot down while trying to take off at one airfield and doesn't attempt to go to another one, well, then maybe he/she shouldn't be flying in AH. Perhaps they should simply go back to banging their heads against a wall for entertainment
Also...probably the BEST thing about AH IS the steep learning curve. It is very much like golf in that one day you think you have the game all figured out...the next day you are complaining about being in a slump. New users should be informed that as AH is the best flight sim on the net it requires time to master it. Sure you will lose some...but you will gain a whole lot!
I don't know how the AH community has been stereotyped as being unfriendly:confused: This is my fourth tour, so I am a relative newbie and I have found the exact opposite!
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Huhu.:D Beating dead horses. huhu.:D
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We do have volunteer trainers in the game right now. I'm not sure how often they offer their services, but they are there. I've seen them take people into the TA to give lessons. If you want to become a trainer, I believe you can email Pyro or even support@hitechcreations.com
Getting new players to stay has a lot more to do with the way the community accepts them. If you see someone asking how to do something, you should try to help them if you can. I always try to help if I'm not busy. I think it would also be helpful to put together an offline tutorial, but I have a feeling coding it wouldn't be that easy. Training films would be helpful too. These could be player made, and if they were well done, it may not be too big of a deal to link them on our site. However that would really be up to HT or Pyro, not me.
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Curval, It's not just WHERE you take off from. It's that because of the steep learning curve, which we all agree is necessary to keep realism in the game, tends to run off new users. I'd be curious to know how many new people have canceled their subscriptions in frustration over not having a chance in the air against the average Aces High vet.
I propose an arena for those who don't have the experience yet to have any hope of survivibality in the MA to find competition on a level playing field with like-skilled players. Maybe limit the New User Arena to six months, or so many points, or a certain ranking, or whatever. Keep the same flight dynamics, but make it kind of like a "rookie league" like baseball has.
Staff it with volunteer trainers, make the New Users look forward to "graduating" to the MA, charge the 15.99 a month, allow MA vets into New User arena but without ammo so they might be able to help train newbies (and look out for those with ability who might be suitable for squad recruitment) and let's see how many new users stick around long enough to help Hi-Tech's bottom line.
As for your comparison to golf, on a golf course you play against the course as much as against other players, so maybe a more proper analogy would be to compare the AH learning curve to basketball. How many times will you get waxed by Michael Jordan before you get tired of it...and take up golf?
My own experience in sales has convinced me the real trick is to keep your clients, not find new ones. If we're selling a game like Aces High to new users who don't have a clue then all the two week free trial does is convince many of them they'll never master the game so they quit.
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Super.. I saw the ad in Model Aviation (we're and advertiser there too) and it's generating some intrest.
If I can jest get un-lazy enuff to haul my computer, monitor, controls and such down to the monthly R/C club meeting (even better, bring two machines w/ stick setups) and SHOW 'em, you'd no doubt get 20 subscribers outta 75 right then and there.
You have my subscription info.. send the check there. ;)
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
There are lots of issues invoved in having a huge influx of new players, many of whom may well be computer illiterate. The technical issues, for example, are something I would be unable to even pretend to understand.
Once 'these' difficulties are solved a whole new crop of issues arise, some of which have been mentioned.
Let's talk training.
Training is availiable in Aces High...I was trained by ghosth initially and then I joined a squad. BUT...I was lucky. I say that because I actually went to the web site and found the communities link to the BB. I then proceeded to post on the General Discusions (being as careful as I could not to offend anyone or be percieved as being really stupid), until I posted something inappropraite there and was directed to the O'Club. Gradually I figured out how it all worked, dedicating alot of time to reading posts in all categories. I received advice, technical support, and made some friends. Most people who play computer games online know this drill and accept it.
Problem is, the kind of user that would be attracted by a really cool ad may not be willing to go through such an ordeal. Each time I suggest to friends that they should check out the bulletin boards for help on their games, they give me a look that tells me I shouldn't have wasted my breath.
So...what is the answer...(scratches head)
Off the top of my head...
Training could be done offline. Have each user download a training program that must be completed before joining the on-line sim.
Start with take-off...once the user completes this he/she gets a code for the next level. Once the whole program is completed they get a password to play online.
As each level of training is completed there should also be a link to a site showing the elements of views in planes, strategy aspects of the game, plane types (& loadouts) training videos etc. etc.
Take them through a tour of the game and complete their training at the same time.
This will also solve your second concern. The community is definately responsible for keeping players flying in Aces High.
But, patience is a virtue very few of us possess...especially if you have been hearing the same old questions over and over and over. I'm not referring to myself at all...just defending some of the animosity that inevitably exists for the vets.
The asking of really stupid questions will be cut to a minimum if some effort is made to train each new user as they start.. More than anything else this will greatly improve the willingness of gnarled "troll-like" veterans to offer help on the finer points of the game rather than be expected to hold hands or babysit newbies.
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Elfenwolf...that sounds like AW RR.
;)
(Actually not true, I was beaten up badly in AW RR too when I first started.)
I must have been typing when you posted what you wrote...we are basically of the same mind. There DOES need to be training, particularly when dealing with the type of newbie I propose to attract.
The only reason that I am still playing is that I am a stubborn sob and even after getting killed a few thousand times I still keep on trying.
:)
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Originally posted by Curval
Elfenwolf...that sounds like AW RR.
;)
(Actually not true, I was beaten up badly in AW RR too when I first started.)
I must have been typing when you posted what you wrote...we are basically of the same mind. There DOES need to be training, particularly when dealing with the type of newbie I propose to attract.
The only reason that I am still playing is that I am a stubborn sob and even after getting killed a few thousand times I still keep on trying.
:)
LOL Yeah, I read your post and thought it was mine at first. My idea for a New Users Arena would use the same plane set and same flight modeling as the MA because the whole point is to teach New Users how to fly in the MA. I'd limit the size to a "managable" level, say maybe 150 tops. The idea is to keep New Users interested enough to stick out the steep learning curve while avoiding the AH Aces who see them simply as easy targets. Do it the same way AW did it, and that game (especially RR) was far easier to play than AH.
Beyond that I'd do pop-ups on as many WW2 sites as possible, linking down to flash movies and mentioning the two week free trial offer, free H2H and offline missions. I'd set up a traveling AH booth to display at airshows where a couple of computers are online to give flight enthuasists a chance to try the game out live.
Hand out CDs with Aces High linking to HiTech's website. Where better place to attract flight sim players than at an airshow?
Then I would work the AH Community angle, maybe donate five dollars of each new subscriber's first payment to a worthy cause.
Make people who join AH feel like they're part of more than just a flight sim, but part of a community that makes a small difference in the world.
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I was introduced via other Air Warrior guys when the game (AW) was canned......
Being a member of the USAF....try taking out an advertisement in the back of Air Force Times.....bet you the money you invest in an ad would come back 10 fold....lots of guys like sims and none I talk to have ever heard of this......
Give it a shot...
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a centerfold spread in Playboy of a 109 would have caught my eye :)
HTC, are you guys going to do to the 6 month subs for the price of 5 again?
T-shirts, hats, FREE stuff :) for long term subs (6 month/year prepaid)
All for more ppl as long as the hardware and the connections can handle it. Rather have 50 ppl in a warp free room than 300 in another room warping all over the place.
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I was reading my sons pc gaming magazine yesterday and was suprised to see an ad for AH.
I didn't know we gave 3 weeks free. I thought it was only 2.
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Another wrinkle when looking at marketing AH.
I'd be interested in knowing what the average age is for subscribers right now. I "think" you will find that the average age is higher than most would think...but I would not want to guess.
What I am getting at is that it is VERY difficult to pin down the target market for AH.
In our squad alone we have guys as young as 14 and guys as old as 50. Tough to market your products to such a diverse range of people with one campaign.
Having said that it seems that there are distinct age groups that can be targetted, but which require specific marketing efforts.
One example:
The old guys! Say between the ages of 35 and 60!
You don't want to market AH to these guys as a GAME. I would have thought it is better to market AH as a "hobby". I personally use this distinction when my wife gets on my case about spending too much time on-line. It also makes it easier for these guys (myself included) to talk about AH with one's peers.
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The 3 week deal is only for new users using a coupon number that is in the magazine ad.
We are also in the process of creating a "newbie" area for AH which will be what people see when they first come to the site. I'm not sure what it entails though.
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I would suggest:
1) Short TV ad on the discovery Wings channel. And why not, history channel. (if ye can afford it hehe).
2) Make little posters of AH and let every walmart and publix hang it on their cashiers ;)
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Another Idea,
Have us current players sign up for a quanity of CD's and give each of us a serial number or use our member numbers, and we place the cds in our local area. When a new user logs on with one of the cds they enter in that serial number so you know where the cd was distributed.
Example, I sign up for 20 cd's and you mail them to me. I take them to local hobby stores or electronic stores where I have friends and get them to hand them out. Maybe run a promotion at the same time, for every 5 people I sign up or they use a cd I distributed I get one free month, or 1000 perk points, a t-shirt, or something like that.
I know lots of places around Austin to hand out cds.
You can also buy mailing lists of publishing companies that send out catalogs and magazines for aircraft/military enthusiasts.
I get catalogs and magazine offers all the time for aircraft/military publishers. Then you could mail cds to people on that list.
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AIR SHOWS
Great Idea! Not only as a marketing tool, but a place for us to meet as well. I would always make a beeline to the AH booth at an Airshow if one was there. I would also be happy to advertise AH on my shirt...hint hint.
edit....How about offering shirts and hats with not only AH but the squad logos too? The artwork is in the system......slam dunk.
Run that up the flagpole and see who salutes it. :D
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AHHH, Air Shows are a great idea, heres another idea to piggy back on that.
Military museums,....lots of those around, they can have them in the gift/souvenir stores
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I would even volunteer to work the AH booth at airshows in my area.....woot!
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If you attend an airshow featuring the Red Baron Stearman Squadron, you can fly a Stearman simulator using a special version of Aces High. :)
From old News post:
We’ve also been working on a contract on the side with Red Baron Pizza and Accu-Flight. We’re taking AH and making them a version featuring the Red Baron Super Stearman. They’ll run this version in Accu-Flight’s motion simulators and take it on the airshow circuit with them, allowing the public a chance to virtually fly one of their planes after watching them in the airshow. We hope that proves popular and turns more of the public onto the joys of flight-sims in general and Aces High in particular.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
AIR SHOWS
Great Idea! Not only as a marketing tool, but a place for us to meet as well. I would always make a beeline to the AH booth at an Airshow if one was there. I would also be happy to advertise AH on my shirt...hint hint.
edit....How about offering shirts and hats with not only AH but the squad logos too? The artwork is in the system......slam dunk.
Run that up the flagpole and see who salutes it. :D
hehe
I posted this idea at CHRISTMAS! My wish list then was:
1. A button on the web site I could press to purchase a subscription for my friends and which would fire them an e-mail on Dec25 informing them of their gift.
2. T shirts for gifts.
Agree 100% midnight