Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fester' on July 31, 2001, 10:19:00 PM
-
this poll was taken from players in the Main Arena:
are you for or against Tower only Radar/Darbar?
bradys5: for
pongo: against
ts: for
EazyE: for
Bigmax: against
busher: against
oct : for
urchin : for
mathman :for
zygote: for
wizzer: for
papaH: for
hawkind: for
fenrir: against
hblair: for
frodo: for
fester: for
defiance: for
truker1: for
BD5pilot: for
darkstar: for
shamus: against
BGmaw: against
NHmihatt: against
Ghosth: for
fdski: for
Ax: for
44mag: for
ribman: against
dtango: against
TheFatz: for
Airscrew: for
FunkedUp: for
elguapo: against
fradim: for
25 for
10 against
given the error margin of this limited survey the results are inconclusive
the question is in reference to Warbirds style radar and intends to ask if the player would prefer the Warbirds fundementalsetup over the Aces High one.
in warbirds radar information is displayed only in the tower.
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Fester' ]
-
For... :D that makes 27 :D
-
For! :D (28)
Nim
-
In the MA?
Against
anRky
(wouldn't mind tower only dotdar)
-
Kinda blows big holes in the big theory that the MA pilot thinks differently than the bulletin board reader huh?
-
for
-
was mathman counted twice?
oct
-
Vote Fraud, Vote Fraud :D
The game would be much more realistic if radar and information on enemy strength only appeared in the tower e.g. only for the eyes of the brass. The fighter jocks went where they were told and had to rely on their eyeballs and radio position reports. Will this happen? I suspect maybe when the customer base is big enough to support a couple of arenas. Otherwise I strongly suspect that at this time it would not be the kind of move we can expect from HTC as it would make the furballers unhappy at having to go out and actually search for the furballs.
Beeg
Originally posted by Octavius:
was mathman counted twice?
oct
-
Range and bearing to any name in the flight roster should be displayed on request on the clipboard map. :D
-
I'd be happy with whatever way... I'm sure I could adjust.
However, you may also want to get the opinions from the folks who don't fly during prime time (aussies, asians etc.) when it's real slim pickin's (20-30 people spread out over a huge map). It could wind up to be a huge milk-run fest in there.
-
excellent point Nash.
-
I don't care either way. I think Fester is a pansie, and Hblair likes to eat pork rinds...or chow.
SOB
-
how about in tower only, but with a sort of GCI instead?
what i mean by that is, while in flight you have no bar or dot radar....you only have an an arrow (like the off map flyer arrow) that points in the direction of the closest or largest group of enemy contacts. you could still get info from country mates in the tower as to wich area has the largest concentration of enemies.and you would still have that "fog of war TM" effect while flying, you wouldn't be able to open the clipboard and see wether or not that high con at 3 was friendly or enemy.
just my opinion for what it's worth
-
I can live with the present radar; I would also be content without it.
I would be immensely grateful if dar bars did not show aircraft at 500 feet or less above the ground.
If NOE raids were possible, think how dynamic it would make the arena! Man, kewl stuff! Maybe a 50 mile radius around HQ should show DAR bars. :)
AKcurly
-
B26's skimming the waves under the 500 ft Dar ceiling, yes.
Dar in the tower only? I could live with it, I just think it creates more problems than it solves for a larger player base.
As long as I can squelch country channel, or there is a seperate NEW channel for intel updates and discussion of what NME are where and what they are doing.
-
Hey, I think my vote is worth 2. :)
-
against.
If I can't find a flight in 15 minutes or less, my money goes else where.
(not a fan of FS2000 or Xplane)
-
4 And most especially no dar bar under 500!
-
FLTSIM 2000...yeah, yuk.
Against.
-
I would vote for the idea. But either way I get by. Its the combat and the feloowship that keep me here. Hang's idea where you get a radar position upon request from the server sounds cool. You could even tone that down to requesting radar coverage for only a few sectors instead of the entire terrain.
ammo
-
For!
Zioo
-
For
I still like the idea of RADAR being effective up to 10 or so miles away from all fields....simulating some sort of real time ground control.
-
Im both for and against.
Go figure.......
Y
-
against and why did wizzer get to vote twice and why were there so few in the arena? Polls don't represent anything unless you are very careful. I don't know how it would have come out if everyone in the arena had been asked or if you had asked durintg off hours when everyone was having a hard time finding each other.
your polls suck like all polls but...HTC is gonna make the decision on this because there is a lot of noise. They will either decide to get rid of the dar and please a few flabby ol vets and drive away new blood or they will leave things as they are and work harder to get new blood.
How come you didn't talk to everyone that was up?? seems you just talked to the same old people. People who allready had heard of the whole subjject and had some pretty firm ideas allready. How many people sid "i don't know never thought about it?" or "no opinion"?
looks to me that you found the same ol guys that were on a "mission" and asked them (some of em twice). guess the guys in the furballs were too busy to ask.
lazs
-
You can mark me down as a "for".
-
lol lazs, I love you man. Always the good sport. :D
-
This is bulltoejam, if you are going to do a poll you better do it right.
It'd be amazing if President's were voted in this way.
Walk down to Crackton and yell out a couple names ask who they want as their President. I'm willing to bet you'd get more than a few crackheads answering for their buddies and more than a few crackheads to hopped up on crack to do anything but run around.
As I said before, if you want it like WB, go play WB.
I sure as hell would enjoy it if you went and played WB.. you are just annoying the hell out of me by re-iterating the same old crap over and over and over.
-SW
-
Being in the minority is a little irritating huh?
:D
-
Assumed minority hblair. I see less than 1/3 of the players with their opinion in this thread.
This does not constitute me as being in the minority. This constitutes less than 1/3rd of the people have had their opinion in this.
Maybe you failed math?
-SW
-
WOW – I didn’t know Fester was a statistics major! That really does represent a well-rounded poll of the AH community. I am impressed. :rolleyes:
Zippatuy
-
For
-
I feel like we are all going around in circles (lufferby?) :).
Don't know if you are being sarcastic or not about the "margin of error". 36 out of 160~180 on last night not the best turn out though.
I admit that I'm a little surprised by the response.
THE REALISM THING
I wish people would stop with the "realism" argument for getting rid of dot dar and dar bar. That's a really slippery slope. Sorry, for whatever reason this argument annoys me.
Points that have been brought up before elsewhere:
[list=1]
- WW2 GCI radar could see 100 miles out even in 1940. Distance got better later into the war.
- GCI gave numbers, altitude, and bearing info- more than we have in AH.
- WW2 ground control infrastructure and operations worked pretty well in directing air battles.
[/list=a]
More on this topic:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010788 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010788)
Simply getting rid of all inflight data that we have now isn't making it anymore "realistic".
If you're arguing realism then I'm all for modifications that emulate the above and historical info in the referenced link. There have been plenty of good ideas that have already been hashed and rehashed by others on how this might be done.
THE GAME PLAY THING
If you read this before I apologize. My observations on the consesquences of the current radar are:
[list=1]
- It helps people find where fights are and lets them get into the action quicker.
- It forces strikes, missions, field captures etc to be well planned and executed.
[/list=a]
Whether intentional or not, I think HTC has struck a good balance for those wanting to get into the action without wasting too much time and those who really want well planned missions. My OPINION is that HTC's implementation of the dar is mainly to reward certain types of behavior vs. trying to simulate ultimate radar realism.
I'm one of the players that can't be on for hours at a time typically. Sometimes I'm even taking care of little things when I'm climbing out or something.
Case in point. Last night I was on for about 1hr15min and that's all I had time for. The dar bar helped me find the fight quickly that occurred near A11 - A5. (BTW nice scramble Frodo, Defiance, 2Late4u...can't remember who else).
If you want to see the effects of making it harder to find a fight, I'll remind everyone about what happens when night approaches in AH. I think many people log.
-
Fester asked everybody he could in the arena last night, so you think the "pro-dars" are going to make a bigger showing in your neck of the woods? if so, lets see your results. Where are all these people yo know who are pro in-flight dar? In case ya didn't know, Curly and Nimitz are for in-tower only radar.
When do we see the results of your poll SW?
-
Against (although I agree with some of the tweek suggestions)
-
Originally posted by hblair:
Fester asked everybody he could in the arena last night, so you think the "pro-dars" are going to make a bigger showing in your neck of the woods? if so, lets see your results. Where are all these people yo know who are pro in-flight dar? In case ya didn't know, Curly and Nimitz are for in-tower only radar.?
This is supposed to change my opinion? Like their opinion influences me. In case YOU didn't know Hblair, Zigrat wants in flight radar but a refined version of it. Hmmm...
I am not going to do a poll like this, if I'm going to do one at all. In case you didn't know there's a bit more to doing a poll than getting a select few people to throw in their opinion. What about those other people out there? Don't care right? Especially if they are against it.
Originally posted by hblair:
When do we see the results of your poll SW?
The only poll that is worthwhile and holds any water would be one that is brought up in the Message Of The Day and requires each user's response.
Until then, this poll is pointless.
-SW
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
-
We're working on Zig, most of the other squaddies have been bribed into agreeing with me.
I am not going to do a poll like this, if I'm going to do one at all. In case you didn't know there's a bit more to doing a poll than getting a select few people to throw in their opinion. What about those other people out there? Don't care right? Especially if they are against it.
Oh, the main arena is used by a "select" few people? The poll was taken on a typical tuesday night in the main arena. He counted the guys who have a differing opinion than his too, you think it was swayed in some way? :D
Show us how to do a proper poll, and yeah what about those "other people", err who are they anyway? Share that with us too.
Yeah we care, give us their opinion.
"Other people" be heard!
-
Yeah, you definitely must of failed math.
Typical MA evening huh?
"26 for
10 against"
That's one helluva typical evening...
What time was it, 5AM EST?
Geezus.
-SW
-
For
way to lames die :) :D
-
Wow, what a inclusive mess this is.
So how long is it before we fly around in the dark wondering where the hell the fight is?
I tried WWIIOL this morning for another 45 minutes. Never saw a NME, so I'll get my 45 minutes of realism there every day.
-
And THIS would be a proper poll, not someone going "Hey I only need 30 of 140 guys to respond to get a general consensus":
"The only poll that is worthwhile and holds any water would be one that is brought up in the Message Of The Day and requires each user's response."
Are you selectively reading Hblair? Sure seems like it.
-SW
-
Primetime. He asked for 30 minutes to an hour.
So you're saying when we vote every 4 years for president and we get 20%-30% turnout, we oughta throw the results out because not enough people voted?
rofl. Teach me some math junior. :)
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
-
For
-
Yeah, we get a 20-30% turn out all the time don't we....
Err wait... Over 50% of the nation votes.
That's a lot different than 20-30%, isn't it?
Not to mention, how ever many people were in the MA does not represent all of the customers playing AH either.
So you probably had roughly 15% of AH's players voting.
Man, that's definitely a general consensus and puts me in the minority!
Again, check your math senior.
-SW
-
When gallup does a poll they DO call every husehold in the US? Or 200 to 500? (the answer is 200-500)
Theres over 260 million people in the US. Do the math there trig boy. What's the percentage of the total population?
That poll cannot possibly be correct though!
:p
-
Originally posted by hblair:
That poll cannot possibly be correct though!
It isn't a representative poll, it's a generalization poll.
Maybe you don't know the difference.
Fact is, I'm paying 30$ a month. Just about everyone playing AH is paying 30$ a month to play.
So you are going to tell me that 15% of the people playing AH can decide for everyone else their opinion of radar?
That might work when it works for you, I'd be damned amazed if you accepted the results of the above poll if it were reversed.
-SW
-
I have to agree with dtango's post...
Well written and thought out.
Against.
Although, I really would like to see radar and dar bar ineffective at low alt and behind mountains etc. No line of sight vis on a dot from the base radar, no bar or dot.
Big low sneak raids are nearly impossible to pull off with the current dar system, and I think they would add a lot of fun to the game.
eskimo
-
So we're looking at pretty much the exact same situation we have now, only you have to type to someone sitting in the tower to have him type back "contact at 8.6.3, about 12 miles northeast of you"?
Against. Homey don't type.
-
Originally posted by Fester':
bradys5: for 125 hours
pongo: against 52 hours
ts: for 92 hours
EazyE: for 118 hours
Bigmax: against 75 hours
busher: against 152 hours
oct : for 32 hours
urchin : for 109 hours
mathman :for 98 hours
zygote: for 168 hours
wizzer: for 37 hours
papaH: for 65 hours
hawkwind: for 116 hours
fenrir: against 23 hours
hblair: for 52 hours
frodo: for 87 hours
fester: for 178 hours
defiance: for 68 hours
truker1: for 72 hours
BD5pilot: for 60 hours
darkstar: for 19 hours
shamus: against 126 hours
BGmaw: against 20 hours
NHmihatt: against 138 hours
Ghosth: for 70 hours
fdski: for 5 hours (better check his WB flight time though)
Ax: for 76 hours
wizzer: for (him again?)
44mag: for 19 hours
ribman: against 25 hours
dtango: against 24 hours
TheFatz: for 92 hours
Airscrew: for 50 hours
FunkedUp: for 2 hours
elguapo: against 154 hours
fradim: for 47 hours
Me: 20 hours.
That's for Tour 18.
You are right about one thing Hblair, I am in the minority.
I don't have 50+ hours a tour to spend sitting on my bellybutton getting pasty and search out a fight because I can't rely on my "country mates" to guide me there.
4 of 10 people against removing in flight radar have within 4 hours more than my flight time, or less.
-SW
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
-
Here's a list of the top 36 fighter pilots from Tour 18.
See how many on that list match the names on Fester's supposed excellent poll.
Fester 21 1 262 6 23
feed 56 2 316 18 255
Fariz1 2 3 3 4 2
RZ 3 4 9 20 3
Blade 6 5 30 47 15
eskimo 1 6 1 2 1
Khan 8 7 41 8 104
Hanzo 91 8 117 9 703
AlgyFT 880 9 1240 732 1533
Mituzawa 35 10 132 253 10
tukiyo 269 11 703 445 423
RWY 101 12 241 104 529
kanamaru 425 13 742 308 1089
Regurge 30 14 121 23 223
AKOwl 213 15 565 59 755
36DD 860 16 1568 973 881
Kiyota 287 17 928 95 610
AKSWulfe 811 18 1568 231 1533
Gomer 586 19 778 766 1109
sax 16 20 44 88 82
MANDOBLE 24 21 26 62 226
Hooligan 948 22 1160 973 1533
mm 834 23 1055 973 1341
xdak 559 24 985 30 1533
Booky 4 25 24 7 9
Asmodan 38 26 206 39 142
Syura 516 27 1240 482 725
RAMMJAGR 18 28 70 142 27
Zig 98 29 346 22 466
airguard 5 30 10 31 5
Hawkwind 201 31 507 322 483
GTR 12 32 67 10 84
Pand 149 33 461 156 469
Gr8White 472 34 867 91 1341
mooj 11 35 33 52 70
Enraged 494 36 828 196 1341
Name/ Overall Rank/ Fighter Rank/ Bomber Rank/ Attack Rank/ Vehicle-Boat Rank
Should go to show you, that you have a very very small list in respect to who actually plays the game.
Like I said before, Glue sniffing Festerbria's poll means nothing.
-SW
-
You imply that the guys who want to keep radar don't have as much flight time as the guys who want to lose in-flight radar. Using the list of people you used, and the number of hours online that you used, the opposite is true. The pro-dar guys have more time online than the anti-dars:
Pro Tower-only radar average time online: 74.28 hours
Anti Tower-only radar average time online: 78.9 hours
-
SW, why don't you devise your own stupid poll. Lemme guess, that's not as entertaining as crying about Festers.
Get to work trig boy.
-
hehe I think SWulf is just mad because IT isnt going his way :D
you really need dar to rely on that bad wulf? :EEK:
-
While I respect what Fester's trying to do here, SWulfe is correct. This poll is not scientifically valid, and it may not in any way be generalized to the total AH population.
There are several reasons for that. First, it does not consist of a random samping of players. Asking a number of pilots who are flying for a one hour period of time on one particular day hardly constitutes randomness. It likely excludes foreign players, those who work at night, and just about everyone else who for one reason or another does not play on Tuesday evenings. One could reasonably argue that any of these groups significantly differ from the one present that night in views toward in-tower radar.
Second, and going along with the randomness issue, this is a self-selected sample. Rather than choosing a random sample of players from the MA and asking their opinions, Fester asked all players and recorded only the answers of those who responded. It's entirely possible, as SWulfe has attempted to show, that those who chose to respond are not representative of the general population of players. I find that argument compelling. Even a popup screen asking all players what they think of this issue potentially suffers from self-selection bias if players can close down the questionnaire without responding.
Hope that helps. :)
-- Todd/DMF, who's administered more than his share of surveys
-
So it wasn't completely scientific, what other method is available to us? We didn't know what the results were going to be when fester decided to do this. For all I knew there would be more pro-dar than anti-dar. If we woulda had fewer votes, I wouldn't be pulling out the *scientific* card. It's just a small sampling of MA pilots. Take it for what it is.
-
Originally posted by Fester':
given the error margin of this limited survey the results are inconclusive
the question is in reference to Warbirds style radar and intends to ask if the player would prefer the Warbirds fundementalsetup over the Aces High one.
in warbirds radar information is displayed only in the tower.
-
Originally posted by hblair:
So it wasn't completely scientific, what other method is available to us? We didn't know what the results were going to be when fester decided to do this. For all I knew there would be more pro-dar than anti-dar. If we woulda had fewer votes, I wouldn't be pulling out the *scientific* card. It's just a small sampling of MA pilots. Take it for what it is.
You've run into one of the largest problems facing all public opinion surveys... namely which methodology maximizes your external validity (i.e. generalizability) given your circumstances. You may not have had any other method available to you at the time, and I empathize with that, but the results still cannot be considered representative of the entire population of AH players. Interesting, certainly, but not necessarily accurate.
Realize that I'm not taking sides one way or another here. I'm just trying to set the record straight on what does or does not constitute a scientifically valid poll.
-- Todd/DMF
-
Against
Hooligan
-
Okay Hblair, I am going to paste this again since your ability at selectively reading escapes any rational explanation as to how you could of missed it the other two times.
"The only poll that is worthwhile and holds any water would be one that is brought up in the Message Of The Day and requires each user's response."
Message Of The Day: Each user that logs in during a period of 24 hours recieves the questionnaire just ONCE. In order to close it, it REQUIRES an input.
That'd be a whole hell of a lot more representative and meaningful than just logging in for 30 minutes asking "Hey, who wants inflight radar and how doesn't?" and taking the results that total only THIRTY-SIX people of a MUCH LARGER player base.
It escapes me your inability to understand what I am trying to say.
I will accept the results if you get a real poll going on that's actually gives everyone a chance to add their opinion on the matter.
And DeeZCamp, piss off.
-SW
-
Against.
Last I heard you could disable the enemies' dar by killing their HQ. Guess those who don't like dar are too busy furballing to put together a mission.
-
I vote For. I would really like to see the WB style radar used. I wouldn't want to fly WB however to use it.
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/markatsig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
-
Originally posted by hblair:
You imply that the guys who want to keep radar don't have as much flight time as the guys who want to lose in-flight radar. Using the list of people you used, and the number of hours online that you used, the opposite is true. The pro-dar guys have more time online than the anti-dars:
Pro Tower-only radar average time online: 74.28 hours
Anti Tower-only radar average time online: 78.9 hours
I implied that I am in the minority. I realized when I was looking up those times that the pro-radar guys had more time online as individuals than SOME of the anti-radar guys.
I have 20 hours of flight time, I do not want radar removed from in flight because I do not have the time to sit around and request vectors. I made that PERFECTLY clear in the post.
As for the "average" times... Man I really must laugh at that. In fact, I am beginning to wonder how you can sit on that pedestal and tell me that my math is bad.
10 guys, and 26 guys. You averaged a MUCH larger number versus a MUCH smaller number of people.
Sweet jebus, were you on the board in Florida that counted the last presidential votes?
-SW
-
Originally posted by SWulfe:
Okay Hblair, I am going to paste this again since your ability at selectively reading escapes any rational explanation as to how you could of missed it the other two times.
"The only poll that is worthwhile and holds any water would be one that is brought up in the Message Of The Day and requires each user's response."
Message Of The Day: Each user that logs in during a period of 24 hours recieves the questionnaire just ONCE. In order to close it, it REQUIRES an input.
That'd be a whole hell of a lot more representative and meaningful than just logging in for 30 minutes asking "Hey, who wants inflight radar and how doesn't?" and taking the results that total only THIRTY-SIX people of a MUCH LARGER player base.
It escapes me your inability to understand what I am trying to say.
I will accept the results if you get a real poll going on that's actually gives everyone a chance to add their opinion on the matter.
And DeeZCamp, piss off.
-SW
Genius, I'm typing this slowly so you can read it easier. Last time I checked, I couldn't edit the main arena MOTD. Can you?
?
That's what I'm talking about trig boy! Learn to read. I was saying that this is the only available way to do it for us, unless, of course, pyro or HT has given you privs to edit the MOTD in the main arena. (bah!)
:p
-
Okay Hblair, you've got me.
You are so much more intelligent and witty than I... BUT WAIT! There's more...
"The only poll that is worthwhile and holds any water would be one that is brought up in the Message Of The Day and requires each user's response."
I stated, repeatedly by now, that Glue sniffing Festerbria's poll is worthless and does not represent anyone but that very small and select group of 36 people who participated. Now stay with me here Hblair, I know that your obvious lobbying for your squad mate's poll is getting in the way.. But I know that since you are so much smarter, you can continue to pay attention and comprehend what I'm trying to get across here: The ONLY poll that is worthwhile would be one that could be done using a message of the day requiring user input to close the box AND is run for 24 hours. Notice, my second post I CLEARLY stated I would not do a poll. Know why? Because *I* do not have the power to conduct a legitimate poll.
Neither do you, nor Festerbria, nor whoever decides to come running along with a plan to convert AH into their vision of the perfect online "sim".
The ONLY people who have the power to conduct a worthwhile poll is HTC.
Do you understand now?
I sure hope so, because I can't explain it any simpler than this.
-SW
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
-
Funny thing Hblair, remember this post:
"I never said I was against any kind of compromise SW, DJ. If having some kinda watered down in-plane version no NOE coverage, hey, it's better than what we got (in my opinion)"
That was by you in Festerbria's last thread about in flight radar.
You don't mind having a less frequently updated in flight dot radar, improvisions for NOE flight, and no enemy bars 1 1/2 sectors into enemy territory.
Now that Festerbria has conducted a half-assed barely representative poll of all but 36 (wow!) people, you have suddenly decided that I am very wrong.
You insist now that you can not meet me half way, instead it's your way or the high way.
My 30$ is some how less worthy than your 30$ or Festerbria's 30$?
You have got to be toejamting me.
-SW
-
I say poll the users that vote to change the MA, per online usage.
Certainly that would prove how awful HTC's opinion of how to run their servers and gameplay is affecting fun for them.
80 hours a month here. Like it.
-
Originally posted by SWulfe:
10 guys, and 26 guys. You averaged a MUCH larger number versus a MUCH smaller number of people.
Sweet jebus, were you on the board in Florida that counted the last presidential votes?
-SW
rofl, what a caveman.
:D
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
-
Nevermind, arguing with you is futile.
It's like talking to my dog.. she hears me, but doesn't understand a damn word I'm saying.
-SW
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
-
Originally posted by SWulfe:
Nevermind, arguing with you is futile.
It's like talking to my dog.. she hears me, but doesn't understand a damn word I'm saying.
-SW
If you need someone to talk to, just give me a call man, Dogs probably don't carry on an intelligent conversation. I hate that you've been reduced to that though.
:(
-
Lol, good god men! Have some respect for yourselves... :)
tards
-
Originally posted by SWulfe:
10 guys, and 26 guys. You averaged a MUCH larger number versus a MUCH smaller number of people.
Whether or not this matters depends. A simple difference of means test can show whether or not two averages from samples of different sizes are significantly different from one another. It takes into account differences in sample size.
Because I'm truly bored and could use the practice, I plugged the numbers you provided earlier into Stata and ran a difference of means test on the number of hours flown by those in favor of in-tower radar only against the number of hours flown by those in favor of keeping things as they are. I excluded wizzer because no time was provided for him, making it 25 for to 10 against.
Here are the results:
For:
25 observations
mean = 74.28
std. error = 9.11
std. dev. = 45.56
Against:
10 observations
mean = 78.9
std. error = 18.24
std. dev = 57.68
There is an 82% (p = .82) probability that any differences we observe between the two sample means occurred by chance and chance alone. Meaning, basically, that we can't assert that there are statistically significant differences in the average number of hours flown by those in favor of in-tower radar and those opposed to it.
-- Todd/DMF
-
Originally posted by hblair:
If you need someone to talk to, just give me a call man, Dogs probably don't carry on an intelligent conversation. I hate that you've been reduced to that though.
I'm glad you don't know what an analogy is. You might really need that dictionary I offered you.
-SW
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
-
DMF I would like to point, however, that there are far fewer people in one category as opposed to another category.
You take two classes studying the same subject.
One has 25 people, the other has 10 people. The class with 25 people has a broad range of scores, which in the end averages out to roughly the same score as the class with 10 people.
You could, however, potentially have 4 people dumb as rocks in the class that scored very low. While the rest of the class scored at the high end of the spectrum.
Both classes are not equal in terms of intelligence. One class has close to 50% of it's students that failed. While the other class probably has 25% pf it's students that failed.
What this means is that while 3 people flew in excess of 100 hours, the other people that voted for in flight radar had 1 person fly 52 hours (considered below average), 1 person fly 75 hours (average going by overall numbers) and 4 people well below average.
While the people for radar vary, but generally are in the average to above average category.
What this means is, more people that voted FOR removal of in flight radar flew more than the average person that wants to keep in flight radar according to this "poll".
-SW
-
Oh SWULF you are whining like a little girl...
Give me a break... You oppose the Not having DAR beause you need it... FACE IT... YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE THAT NEED TO LOOK AT THE CLIPBOARD AND RUN TO THE NEAREST RED SECTOR.
I dont think you understand that NOT having DAR COULD DRAMATICALLY increase the need to Be on the Lookout for the ENEMY and Vice versa, Enable your Team to launch an Undetected Strike.
You are A GAMEPLAYER.. not A SIMMER
You want the "GAMEY" implementations to AID you in getting to the fight quickly, not realistically..
THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT.... :EEK:
PS I really like the IDEA of having the Tower having only the DAR information.. and then HAVE that information Supplied to the Pilots upon REquest ... But nothing like we have here with this constant "POWER UP --"enemy FORCE LEVEL" meter we have now.
Oh and HEY WULF what if the MESSAGE/VOTING poll is enabled at ACES HIGH LOGIN... and People choose to have DAR OFF... are you then going to RANT and RAVE to HTC that its not fair because you dont like it?
-
Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
If God is YOUR co-pilot, switch seats!
He'd better be YOUR pilot, it's more than obvious he forgot to give you a brain.
-SW
-
LOL I guess your response is due to the lack of your own inability to use yours.
LOL its so funny that you cannot address the issue Wulf :D
I guess it would take too much thought upstairs to debate this one eh? :EEK:
:rolleyes:
-
Not really, the answers to all of your asinine statements are already in this thread.
When you learn the fundamentals of reading and comprehension, I will take my time to reply to you.
Until then, it just FEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLSSSSSSSSSSSS good!
-SW
-
Give me a break... You oppose the Not having DAR beause you need it... FACE IT... YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE THAT NEED TO LOOK AT THE CLIPBOARD AND RUN TO THE NEAREST RED SECTOR.
Me too. Thats where the fight is.
-
Creamo;
Would you settle for an arrow pointing towards the nearest Chute?
:)
eskimo
-
You need it too eh creamo?... whys that?
you need the information relayed to you by means of some NORAD Ground/sky/GPS tracking of all planes/craft in general of the war?... AND IN A WWII Environment?????
wow.. I guess You guys would rather Aces go the way of gamey type, instead of realistic simulation.
-Wulf hehe still havent answered the question have you? hmm.. not much thought is required on this ... but I guess even it is over your head..
I relate your logic to your GENIOUS statement of...
"I have a 56K modem.... Im not going to download it"
LOL that sums it up.. You talk a great deal.. and DO nothing to back any of the crap that flows from your mouth.
You must be for ANTI accomplishment aren't you Wulf.. hehe YOU FEAR CHANGE dont you..
maybe mommy and daddy sheltered you through your life, and now are afraid to do anything/see anything change.. oh well
youll get out of your shell one day.
haha you are funny :D
-
Originally posted by SWulfe:
DMF I would like to point, however, that there are far fewer people in one category as opposed to another category.
Which is fine when comparing differences of means. It's very rare that you'll have equitable numbers between comparison groups in any real statistical analysis. Most research tends to analyze subsets of a sample against the main sample mean itself, so you're going to have a smaller number compared to a larger number.
What this means is, more people that voted FOR removal of in flight radar flew more than the average person that wants to keep in flight radar according to this "poll".
You should pick this up via the standard error, which measures sampling fluctuation (it's the square root of the variance of the mean). A difference of means test should take into account large sampling fluctuations between groups regardless of the actual mean score. Another way to check is to examine differences in the standard deviations of the two groups... 45 vs. 57. One standard deviation above and below the sample mean represents about 68% of all scores in the sample. So 74.28 hours +/- 45.56 hours includes 68% of all respondents in favor of in-tower radar only. Comparatively, 78.9 hours +/- 57.68 hours includes 68% of all respondents opposed to in-tower radar only.
That's really not a very large difference.
However, one caveat. The sample size is so small (n < 40, where 40 respondents is usually considered the minimum threshhold for each group let alone both combined) that it's possible we'll never observe statistically significant differences between the two groups. Let's beef up the numbers and see where that leads us. :)
-- Todd/DMF
-
Outstanding DMF!
Zippatuh
-
I see what you mean DMF.
DeeZ, you still fail on comprehension. Try again, and if you still fail to understand anything anyone says I will continue to stamp the word "ignorant" into your forehead.
All the answers you seek, I have stated before. I will not repeat myself for the umpteenth time to you just so you will continue to read what you want and turn my words around.
Your ignorance abounds you, discussing anything rationally with you is pointless and you will never quite grasp the concept of reading things through and understanding what is being said to the point that it doesn't need to be repeated ad nauseum.
-SW
-
DMF, arguing logic with SW is interesting. You can be completely right, only thing is, he has no clue it's thataway!
:D
-
Originally posted by hblair:
DMF, arguing logic with SW is interesting. You can be completely right, only thing is, he has no clue it's thataway!
Funny Hblair, same can be said of you. Interesting.
-SW
-
"The radar system is unrealistic and dweeby and the only reason we even remotely need it is for newbies".
"Now a vote: Do you want to see in-flight dar go away, or are you an unrealistic dweeby newbie."
One side of the argument has already been branded. No ammount of sampling will give you an accurate portrayal of preference because it is being skewed by potential ridicule.
Basically, the lemming factor will take over.
AKDejaVu
-
You are eerily similar to my wife. <gulp> Your last name isn't blair is it?
-
^ that was directed to SW, Deja's my buddy now.
-
Originally posted by hblair:
You are eerily similar to my wife. <gulp> Your last name isn't blair is it?
I could say something in response to this, but I fear you will turn it around to say that I am insulting your wife.
Bringing family members into a discussion between two people who do not like each other is the greatest ingredient for more build up of angst.
You should of known that, but perhaps that was your intention. To give you the upper hand.
Keep it coming Hblair, you are only confirming what I thought you were long ago.
-SW
-
for
-
lol Wulf you are a very sad with all your close minded ways /possible upbringing?
Oh well you are set in your ignorant ways, no changing that..
you are one of those that say "it cant be done" types lol
I hope that the dar is changed to somehting more realistic... Oh your whining will shine throughout the threads lol
hehe till then lamo :D
-
Eski- thanks for the kind words.
DMF- nice posts and responses. Thanks for giving us some substance. Hope people are able to pick up the signals in the middle of all the noise.
DeeZcamp- please don't confuse the issues. It's not a realism vs. game play issue. It's a game play vs. game play issue.
-
DeeZ, your head is so far up your bellybutton you must be staring at your tonsils.
-SW
-
Originally posted by Creamo:
Give me a break... You oppose the Not having DAR beause you need it... FACE IT... YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE THAT NEED TO LOOK AT THE CLIPBOARD AND RUN TO THE NEAREST RED SECTOR.
Me too. Thats where the fight is.
hehe! something about this reply was just hilarious!! :D
btw, I'm against total lack of inflight radar in the MA. The MA is about fun, for everyone. Removing inflight dar removes the fun for some people. If you want no inflight dar settings, fly in the historical events.
I am for a compromise. NOE flights off dar until 5-10 miles from a base (includes both dar and bar; yes, I realize this has nothing to do with inflight.) Inflight... bars definitely stay (with the aforementioned NOE flights not on it.) Dots can stay, but shouldn't be realtime. They update once a minute or something of that nature, perhaps only the enemy dots within 25mi of your nearest base showing up on your inflight (your squadmates should always be on dot dar, IMO. Sometimes they're in a situation where they can't type their location to you.)
-
SW- meant to say thanks for arguing so valiantly for the "pro-dar" group. Don't have a heart-attack because of it though. Need you flying in the MA! :)
C'mon guys, let's stop with the personal attacks and instigation. The more noise there is, the more distraction, the less everyone will hear the substance.
-
"DeeZcamp- please don't confuse the issues. It's not a realism vs. game play issue. It's
a game play vs. game play issue. "
I'm impressed... in 3 short sentences dtango has cut right to it... well said.. very pithy.
lazs
-
Wulfy needs little gamey options dont choo wulfy wulfy... LOL
I bet that soon youll be also wanting other gameplay options like Auto-aim, Dar with range info, and eventually Sidwinders lol
<S> wulfy the elite of empty minds :D
If anyone has their head up somewhere hehe.. YOUR the ONE :D
WULF FEARS CHANGE and the possiblity of making a GAME more like a SIM .
Dont worry WULF I am sure HTC will appease to the non-simmer in you :D ... You know FOR GAME PLAY concessions LOL :rolleyes:
:eek:
-
DeeZ, here I'll give you two free clues. The rest you have to buy.
Clue #1) I was against the addition of padlock.
Clue #2) I was against the addition of combat auto-trim.
I do not use either of those, yet they are both what you would call "gamey" options.
YOu don't even know what "realism" is, it's just a cute buzzword you learned and you use since you seem to think it agrees with you on every issue you wish to promote as being "better".
It's obvious your cognitive abilities are underdeveloped.
Now I am flying Rook this tour, better check your 6!
-SW
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
-
hiya all:
not sure if I really want to set in here, but I'm here now. gee where to start.
Ok, the radar is needed to help out the new people, the new people are needed to help build the community, the community has to grow to help the people at HTC's pay there bills, the people at HTC's have to pay there bills so they can contuine to upgrade the sim, the sim has to keep upgrading so that the poeple that are here will stay longer, the poeple that are here have to stay longer to help out the new people, the new people need the radar to help them find the fights.
does any of that make any sence, I'm not really sure.
Now the only people that should be taking any polls are the people at HTC's. the best way that I can think of for them to take a poll. is to send it out by e-mail to all there paying customors and then wait for the e-mails to come back. they can givbe a dead line as to when the answered polls have to be back by. now that is how a poll should be done. it is private, you can answer how ever you fell and nobody can say a thing to you abought your answer. unless you want to tell people how you answered. then you open yourself up to attack. and yes, if you where to tell people how you voted, you would be in for a fight now matter witch way you voted.
I do beleive that this is one of the things that should be left to the people at HTC's to take care of. let them decide what kind of changes should be made with out all the in community fighting. there are so many other things for the community to fight over. leave the changes in how the game is set up for HTc's to make.
And I'm not saying how I would vote. :p
-
Thanks Dtango. Don't worry about the heart attack thing, the way I express myself may seem like I'm fuming but I know of no other way to express myself. It would be much easier to understand me face to face, although my language is much filthier. ;)
As for the instigation and personal attacks, well DeeZ just follows me around like a trained pup waiting for me to comment on something so he can call it gamey or whatever suits his mood. Hblair has decided to take it upon himself to exchange verbal assassinations with me, although he ironically called me out for the way I express myself a few weeks/months ago. The irony and double standards that abound situations like this is probably what keeps me going. :)
-SW
-
lol yeah I better check it.. haha Nothing to fear from you lol Because It will be clear. :D
its pretty funny how you are against certain items that would dictate an unreal implementation, but on this issue you are crying like a girl because your precious (needed) radar bar is/might be taken away.
Oh gosh... to Think you may have to actually go Find a fight be means of naviagtion or hearsay... lol
maybe its the red color that amazes you? are you are drawn to the Big red bar??... haha.. or even better yet.. YOU look to it to know WHERE NOT TO FLY.
You wouldnt want to have to alter a mission due to your plans being spoiled lol after finding that you wound up in enemy territory with a group of un-forseen cons. lol
I guess you dont belive in the element of surprise :rolleyes:
-
SW, did you say something about my wife?!?
-
I have my colors set to custom. A deep blue and deep purple. Neither are easy to see, I like to make things more difficult for myself.
But to artificially make something more difficult because you THINK that's the way it would be while you fail to realise that the concession is there for a lack of radar operators and voice communications with those very same radar operators is absurd.
And to say that I need radar because I can not fly or fight is equally absurd and rediculous. I think this film (http://gandalf.totalcs.com/ahinfo/mark/yaksw.zip) will show you that I am not what you think I am. In fact that absurd statement you said about me trying to dodge fights applies to the very person who started this thread. The irony is absolutely hilarious.
There are many more films I have that are equally as good and will more than put you and what you believe of me to shame.
Your ignorance is outstanding DeeZ, if there was an emmy award for ignorance, you would win it.
-SW
-
DeeZ, here is a comparrison of my fighter stats verse your fighter stats for Tour 18:
Me:
Kills / Deaths + 1 2.9091
Kills / Sorties 1.7349
Kills / Time online 0.0021
Hit percentage 0.0793
Points 17913.3178
You:
Kills / Deaths + 1 2.2045
Kills / Sorties 1.4058
Kills / Time online 0.0011
Hit percentage 0.0568
Points 13696.1265
My kills per death and my kills per sortie are above yours, and the most astonishing thing is, so is my kills per time which means I furball and live more.
-SW
-
I like donuts.
Cobra
A vote for Radar Equipped Dunkin' Donuts is a vote for Democracy!
-
LOL wulf I cant belive it... I dont think I would be saying it .. But I Agree with What Animal told me along time ago haha
Scores and rank completey mean nothing here lol
You must obviously play for the score and rank eh? hehe You know how many times I will respawn on a rwy and get shot just to have others waste their ammo on me? LOL
ALOT..
heres a Clue
IF I wanted to play for score I could Easily Attain my 4.5 or 5 k/d that I had during the first 30 or more sorties lol
I think its time for you to awake from that constant mental lapse :D
Keep smokin up your Crops lol
-
SW and DeeZ... simple way to settle the "I'm better than you are!" argument, and it's not tour stats. Duel time! Best 2 out of 3 both in SW's plane of choice, best 2 out of 3 in both DeeZ's plane of choice, then best 2 out of 3 in whatever goes. Come on, neither of you are scared of the other are you???
-
Originally posted by SWulfe:
I could say something in response to this, but I fear you will turn it around to say that I am insulting your wife.
Bringing family members into a discussion between two people who do not like each other is the greatest ingredient for more build up of angst.
You should of known that, but perhaps that was your intention. To give you the upper hand.
Keep it coming Hblair, you are only confirming what I thought you were long ago.
-SW
Did you just call me a nincompoop?
:mad:
-
Whatever, I'll see you in the arena DeeZ.
I made my case about this "poll", I am done with the topic of the thread because I do not think I could clarify myself anymore and now that other people's opinions on the this topic have been voiced it is very clear where everyone stands.
DeeZ, you have completely derailed this topic and I have nothing more to say to you. All of these statements you have made, you know where the answers are, you have simply chosen to ignore them.
Hblair, I have said what I wanted about the topic and I think we both know where each other stands. I will see you in the MA, don't think I won't be calling your 6 and assisting you should you need it though.
-SW
-
Dereailed the topic?.. hehe uhm.. I was only along for the ride, and gave you input on how it was going... if ya dont like it well.. ..... YEP..
See ya in the arena... LOL if you see some unsuspecting 202 thats me come get it. =)
-
Originally posted by SWulfe:
Hblair, I have said what I wanted about the topic and I think we both know where each other stands. I will see you in the MA, don't think I won't be calling your 6 and assisting you should you need it though.
-SW
I started a thread on this:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010877 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010877)
I was just funnin with ya here man, I know you didn't call me a nincompoop. :D
-
I think I finally formed a real opinion on this.
-No bar dar under 500ft
-No dar behind obstructions such as mountains.
-No bar dar period starting at a certain number of miles out from your front line bases.
-No dot dar in-flight.
-Maybe modify in-flight bar dar somehow so it can show indicators in all four corners of each sector. Kind of a crude indication of where an enemy is. Perhaps this one is a bit much.
SOB
-
For :)
(http://www.lasse.as/332.bmp)
The 332 "VIKING" Squadron
Lasse
-
Originally posted by SOB:
I think I finally formed a real opinion on this.
-No bar dar under 500ft
-No dar behind obstructions such as mountains.
-No bar dar period starting at a certain number of miles out from your front line bases.
-No dot dar in-flight.
-Maybe modify in-flight bar dar somehow so it can show indicators in all four corners of each sector. Kind of a crude indication of where an enemy is. Perhaps this one is a bit much.
SOB
I agree with some of SOBs post. Points 1,2,3 and I don't know what 5 means? I think dot dar in plane isnt a bad idea, just not continously updated. By the way, I'm pretty capricious, so this might change. Also, I'll be going on vacation, so I won't see y'all for 10 days or so. Have fun while I'm gone everybody! :D
When I get back I'm flying the Ta-152 until I run outta perkies. Buh-bye now :D
:D :D :D :D