Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on April 01, 2002, 08:58:55 PM
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..when they blow up americans,as they just announced?
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I've thought Palestine was the cause of the troubles in the middle east the whole time. Right before Isreal stormed Arafats compound, I thought to myself "I bet Israel is reaching a breaking point, something big is going to happen". I truly had that thought.
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*sigh*
why do you keep trying?
(http://irc.project-gaming.com/images/arguing.jpg)
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If we disowned that piss ant country Israel?
I doubt they would.
It's time for Uncle Sam to kick the dust from his feet and get rid of that baggage.
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Yep, they can stand on their own two feet without us propping them up. Shoot, they improved the avionics in the aircraft we sold them a significant amount.. of course, they were then reluctant to share the new stuff with us until threatened with a cut-off of aid.
I figure if the US withdraws from the entire situation politically and with respect to aid to both crazy sides, it'll simply deteriorate into a Balkan-like slaughterfest.
If the world-renowned fighters of the Arab League then take action... and somehow manage to get the upper hand... then we'll see the first use of nukes since WW2.
It's a great place and a great situation, isn't it?
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Rolaids, anyone?
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*sigh*
why do you keep trying?
(http://www.israeli-truth.org/Delfi/dolphiAfterExplode.JPG)
So I won`t have to see this again.
I`m glad You ,and the people close to You are safe.
Unfortunatelly I`m not so lucky
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Oh so tell me, arguing like a tard on an online gaming BBS will stop the massacres?
Arguing AT ALL will stop this toejam?
And you think yourself righteous by posting that pic. I understand you are pissed that your people are getting killed. Why dont you go there and kill some palestinians? revenge is the strategy of choice for you and your people, and let me tell you, IT AINT WORKING...
buh-bye.
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A moderate jewish friend of mine was talking to a Hasidic jew. He asked the Hasidic jew what he thought about the Palistinian problem. The Hasidic jew said that he wished that the Palistinians would just go away. My friend then said, "That sounds like a solution...a pretty final one."
He later said to me that, out of all the peoples in the world, the jewish people should be the MOST sympathetic to the situation the Palistinians are in.
I wonder if we'll see Israelis before the world court for crimes against humanity,:(
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If the US backs out of its support for Isreal, then it strikes me that it's akin to firing the starting gun ("have at it!")... full scale chaos ensues. Imagine it lasting 10 years, and imagine for a second that Isreal starts to get overwhelmed... The Jews getting pushed into the water and off the map. Imagine the images on the news every night. Or the flipside, the nukes start getting lobbed. Or a 3rd angle - Isreal starts taking even *more* land... and the problem get's even more complicated. I doubt anyone really wants to see the outcome of something like that, much less a sitting President. Much better to put that thought on ice 'til they're out of office and let the next Prez deal with it.
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Greetings from Mr. A.Sharon...
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how about a lil popcorn to go with your rolaids?
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Yeah, Thrawn, the US has to hang in there I guess. We're too stuck to this "tar baby" too let go simply because no one else is stupid enough to grab hold and try to help.
So round and round it goes.
Look at the bright side... it gives the rest of the world another thing to squeak at us about. :D
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Send in the killer bees!
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Originally posted by Toad
Look at the bright side... it gives the rest of the world another thing to squeak at us about. :D
Oh, I don't blame the US for the Palistinian/Isreali thing. I believe that it belongs right in their own hands. I do blame the US for N'Sync though. Which is, in my mind, a far greater tragedy.
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FWIW, I think Harry Truman screwed up big time getting us mixed up with the Israelis. (his old haberdashery buddy for god sake.) Regardless, we have gotten into the bad habit of leaving allies hanging, since the bay of pigs thing. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think we have to hang in there with them, like it or not. Honorable men can do no less.
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We're not the Golly-geened police, despite what the international media tells everyone. We pick and choose our fights.
Personnally, I felt bad for the Palestinians, but their tactics erased what sympathy I had for them.
I don't much care for the Isrealis either. They don't need our help of any kind. After all the toejam that's been thrown at the USA these last few months, I wouldn't mind at all if the rest of the world turned to crap in a heartbeat. Right now I would only jump to the defense of the UK, Japan, Germany, and France. They're the only ones helping us, UK in particular.
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Right now I would only jump to the defense of the UK, Japan, Germany, and France. They're the only ones helping us...
Wha...?
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Japan wipped out the checkbook to pay for some of this, and sent ships to the battle area despite thier own laws against getting involved in foreign wars.
Germany is hopping all over the hijackers backgrounds and getting information that's useful for us.
France has stopped several....several....attempt s to attack the US embassy in Paris. France bashing may be a fad and a hobby, but in the real world they've been on top of anti-terror operations in their own country. Don't tell me you forgot this already? Its too bad this Zacharius Mousaoui death penalty thing is getting in the way now.
The UK....well, what hasn't the UK done to help? The critisms that Blair is getting in the UK bothers me personally. He's been world trotting and hand shaking with people on our behave, and gets flak for it from his own people. Somebody has to stick up for him.
Actually, I ought to include Italy too, as they've also stopped several attempts at terrorism against US interests in their country.
This thread was started by Caligula, with the basic premis asking us Americans who are friends are? Israel or Palestine?
My response may have been a bit vague, but let me rephrase it.
In my opinion Isreal is quite far DOWN on the list of USA allies. I might even put Russia near or even above them, but not quite yet.
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LtHans even mono-brain-celled tards know the last thing the US wants is Israel getting involved up front with the terrorist thing. Every measure was taken to keep Israel out of the Iraq thing, and I'm sure the same went for the Afghanistan.
I'm sure the Mossad had plenty of info for the US in the background :)
As for your friends, well, did the Israelis dance in the streets when the towers collapsed? Don't forget the majority of Al Qaeda are not Afghans, but Arabs and Palestinians.
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N'Sync? N'Synch? Yah, well I'll apologize for N'Synch right after somebody apologizes for Celine Dion! ;)
Easymo, I understand what you're saying about the US and allies, but THIS time I think the "Allies" just wish we'd turn a blind eye to the situation and go for a long walk while they do what they feel they have to do.
I don't think they WANT us around right now. Which is REALLY the reason we have to stay with it. Well, that and the fact that NOBODY else wants to get anywhere near this problem.
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I don't like/dislike either one but it really doesn't matter.
What it comes down to is this..Both sides are highly religious and they both want the same holy lands so unless they learn to get along in the same place they will continue to kill each other.
Their hate for each other is so great that there is no way they can ever get along so.......
All we can do is to try and calm them down. I'm afraid all that is doing is prolonging the inevitable.
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What's a Rollaid ?
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An ant-acid tablet used to get rid of gas in the belly.
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I'm disgusted with both sides over there.
Something that really disturbs me however, is a sneaking suspicion that most Islamic countries really do at least accept, if not approve of terrorism to acomplish political goals. This piece describes how the representatives of 57 Islamic countries were unable to even define terrorism. How disingenuous is that?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,49322,00.html
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Toad. I'm getting those old Vietnam blues on this one. Not sure we are rooting for the right side. At the Arab conference They made an offer of historical perportions. If the Jews would pull back to their "67 boarders. ALL the Arab states would recognize Israel, and normalize relations. If anyone but "the bulldozer" were Prime minister, this thing would probably be cooling down now.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
What's a Rollaid ?
Same effect as a Fart,
:D
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difference btwn the two posted pictures??
the color shot has women and children and old ppl while the b&w has adult males ...
can u figure out who killed who?
http://www.israeli-truth.org/Delfi/
can't understand a word at this site but the pictures tell it well enough for me ... :(
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Originally posted by weazel
If we disowned that piss ant country Israel?
I doubt they would.
that's where I think you are wrong ...
I think we could throw the support to Palestine equal to what we are giving Israel now and the nutcase faction(s) causing the problems there today, would kill you or me given the 1st chance.
Don't the Palestines realize if they pushed for peace as hard as they push for chaos & murder, they'd drown in money and support thrown their way? I don't think they want it. I think they have been fighting so long they are brainwashed into hate, not knowing any reason but the fact they have been raised to hate.
There best chance is to go Ghandi on Israel, the media would eat it up and thus the world. BUT, it ain't gonna happen ...
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Right now I would only jump to the defense of the UK, Japan, Germany, and France.
ahhh, the irony of it all. All the above were at one time our sworn enemies and now can be considered our closest friends.
Might be hope. Doubt it, but there might be.
F.
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Originally posted by Toad
N'Sync? N'Synch? Yah, well I'll apologize for N'Synch right after somebody apologizes for Celine Dion! ;)
Hey, we paid full reparations for Dion, in the Shania Twain Treaty of 1995!!
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I'm perhaps ignorant but when there was a state of war between USA and France ? (*)
Truly I'm candid and I don't know :confused:
(*) a real state of war not a chicken game
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I don't think you ever DID abide by the protocols of the Saccharine Sweetness Songwriting Treaty of the '70's that ended the Anne Murray cross-border war, now did ya?
I think you'll admit to it, as I know you are a student of history.
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I hear ya. There's no GOOD side to support here. I would like to see the US government get tough with Israel though. Maybe just immediately cut all aid; somehow I think THAT would get Sharon's attention.
The Arab offer was a good one... if they'd abide by it. I can see where Israel doesn't have much faith in the promises of the Arab League.
... and the '67 border idea can't be challenged. Israel shouldn't have that land by conquest despite their claim that it aids in their territorial security.
Pollyanna solution? Israel pulls back behind the '67 borders. Arab League actually does recognize Israel and treats and trades with her just like "any other country".
Palestine gets its own state and the state actually pays more attention to aiding its own citizens health, education and welfare than trying to "get back at Israel".
UN installs Peacekeeping force between Arabs and Israel using the meanest "pit bull" Peacekeepers they can find and gives them authorization to immediately engage with deadly force on ANYONE breaking the peace.
Told ya it was Pollyanna. Probably wouldn't work. Some moron would find a way to continue the slaughter.
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I recognize that the Arabs might just be buying time, and space with the offer. But, tactically the Israelis wouldn't lose that much. And what the would stand to gain politically, if the Arabs defaulted, is far more valuable than there position is now.
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The problem is,the 1967 borders of Israel are not defendable.
The border would be some 7 miles away from israel`s only international airport,from the golan syrians could shell major cities and Jerusalem would be off limit for jews once again.
It would be like the US pulling out of Europe during the cold war.
Yes,Israel would win and beat the arabs once again,but at what prize.
No scuicide attack today (they caught and killed one wannabe martyr) and support from US is still strong.So it seems like it`s working.I hope I`m not saying it too soon.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
No scuicide attack today (they caught and killed one wannabe martyr) and support from US is still strong.So it seems like it`s working.I hope I`m not saying it too soon.
Yeah the killing of many civilians by the IDF is coming along quite nicely.
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When civilians pick up guns,they`re not civilians anymore.
BTW if the IDF was about to go and kill all palestinians,they would have done it by now.
They go to arrest people suspected of terrorist activity,and they fight the ones that resist.If You`re not a terrorist why would You resist?
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
The problem is,the 1967 borders of Israel are not defendable.
The problem is that taking land by conquest isn't permitted. :)
I understand the concern but the excuse won't wash.
Israel got what it got in '48 from the UN. There was no "and any other territory you think you need to defend yourself and can conquer and hold from your neighbors" clause in the deal.
What Israel (IMO) needs to do right now is:
- Pull back to the original borders. receiving in exchange a committment from the UN to supply UN troops to defend Israel if Israel is attacked again by military forces.
- Agree to the Palestinian statehood
- Totally seal its border with the new Palestinian state. :)
Don't worry, I know it won't happen.
But if it did and the Palestinians kept up the terror attacks, where would the world turn its anger? Right now, the world is totally PISSED at Israel; wouldn't it be better if they were totally pissed at the Palestinians?
Either way, Israelis are dying. The way it is right now, most of the world is placing the blame on Israel.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
When civilians pick up guns,they`re not civilians anymore.
BTW if the IDF was about to go and kill all palestinians,they would have done it by now.
They go to arrest people suspected of terrorist activity,and they fight the ones that resist.If You`re not a terrorist why would You resist?
I said civilians, I ment civilians. Because they are being arrested by military personal from a foreign government. Civilian palistinians are already ghettoized and are now have a curfew. They are being rousted from their homes and arrested. Do you think that the israelies have enough prison space for the 700 people they've arrested already? The might have to concentrate them in camps.
Isrealis killing civilians is not right, the Palistians kill of Isreali civilians is not right. Anyone that is says otherwise is just wrong in my books.
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The Jews have had it pretty bad for about 2000 years now. I dont see how anyone could support Palestine especially since it is sending wave after wave of suicide bombers into Israel. I dont know how much longer Israel is gonna sit back and keep letting Palestine attack it.
Here is a quote from General Hawley
) ") "Violence only leads to more violence." This one is so stupid you
usually have to be the president of an Ivy League university to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already:
Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete,
fully-thought-through, professional, well- executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E-Well, you get the
idea.
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I found it here.. entire piece is pretty funny acutally:
You Say You Want a Resolution (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/762dbnlm.asp)
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<<>> -Caligula
You don't even need to pick up a gun to support the economy and war-making machinery. Even armies need food and that calls for farmers. I'm not sure in today's world that there are "civilians" anymore.
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I just saw on CCN curfew lifted for 2.5 hours to let civilians get food from the market.They sure looked upset,but noone was bugging them.Than I saw UN trucks unloading medical supplies.
So israelis do make sure the innocents suffer as little as possible,but it`s war after all,and in war people suffer.
Colleteral damage seems to be lower than in any other war I`ve known of (at least in the west bank,palestinians aim for civilians in their brave martyr attacks).
Israel is in deep toejam,and they do everything possible not to sink even deeper.I`m sure there are many israelis that would like to see all palestinians rounded up and moved down,it ain`t gonna happen.I`m yet to see reports of israeli mobs going around linching arabs,but I see this:(http://www.israeli-truth.org/Ramallah/israelisoldier.jpg)
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Oh how magnanimous of the Isrealis. If a foreign government came an ghettoize the you and, then invaded your country, shot innocent neighbours of yours and imposed a curfew on you. Would you be sitting there thinking how wonderful they were when they you out of your house for 2 and 1/2 hours.
Caligula, I fear your biases have blinded you.
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LtHans, France has been the butt of jokes since the April Fools incident (I'll explain if I must).
Didn't Pres. Clinton actually try to get things settled over there? I believe it was really a move to get his name in the history books, more than an honest bid for peace. BUT, didn't he manage to get the Israeli's to offer Arafat 97% of his demands? Had Arafat agreed would he not have had peace? Wouldn't he have had his land back, and more? Didn't he neglect to sign and leave it at the table?
What was the 3% they didn't offer? Didn't he want Israel gone?
That speaks volumes about this man. He's not after peace, he's not after land, and he's not after assets. He wants Israel dead. It's jealousy for the land lost to Jews. That's petty.
Israel just wants to live in peace in their own land.
I think France, Italy, Germany, and certainly the Arab nations would blame us directly if Arafat is killed. Probably more nations would join the condemnation of us, whether we voice HOURLY regret for Israel's action or not. So, whether Arafat dies or not, we will get blamed for the outcome.
Tar baby indeed, Toad.
If not for the second amendment I would prefer the banning of the press in this conflict. Our press and media have helped to escalate this situation. Everyday they make it worse. Both sides get a worldwide audience to this snowball fight from hell. Ah, well, I can just shut off the tube.
I wonder how long those fifty cans of sardines will last him?
Sticky tar baby... very bad.
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I simply love the irony of Israel doing the same thing their idols and mentors the nazis had to do! Lebensraum anyone?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I simply love the irony of Israel doing the same thing their idols and mentors the nazis had to do! Lebensraum anyone?
Exactly.
I also find disturbing that Israel has this fetish with rockets.
Some wacko kills himself and takes 20 with him?
Easily remedied: lets take our choppers and lob rockets at the nearest palestinian village. Kill hundreds.
Then send many pictures of the grieving families of the 20 victims the wacko killed to the biggest news networks. Screw the suffering palestinians who lost their lands and family.
AFTER ALL, THEY ARE NOT HUMAN, LIKE US
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Originally posted by Voss
LtHans, France has been the butt of jokes since the April Fools incident (I'll explain if I must).
yes please :)
you can send me by email : Straffo (Fdejager@free.Fr)
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also find disturbing that Israel has this fetish with rockets.
Some wacko kills himself and takes 20 with him?
Easily remedied: lets take our choppers and lob rockets at the nearest palestinian village. Kill hundreds.
Can You post a link to a credible news site about any helicopter attack with hundreds of arabs dead?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I simply love the irony of Israel doing the same thing their idols and mentors the nazis had to do! Lebensraum anyone?
Exactly - and this is (ironicly) the only good thing in all of this.
Israel has shown that it has become a Nazi-like-ruled nation under a Hitler-like mad dog called Sharon.
Now we all learn that even a nation like Israel with the tragical history of the jews killed by the Nazis has become exactly the same like the German Reich under Hitler.
Seeking for Lebensraum they send their soldiers to kill another race (which isnt another race because both are semites) which they are discriminating day by day. Human rights are not used - because these palestines are no longer defined as humans but collectively as terrorists.
The acceptance and solidarity for Israel is fading in Europe. European peace activists have been successful to reach Arafat and stay there as a human shield to protect him against the israeli military-forces.
Yesterday german TV aired a telephone call of two german women - a mother and her daughter - who are with Arafat and who described the situation.
After this the german moderator indirectly compared Israel with the Nazis - a thing which was unthinkable for german TV before the mad days of Sharon.
And this "opening of the eyes" to see how Israel really is, is the good thing of all the madness.
Now the only interesting question is, if the USA which had destroyed the Nazi-regime of the Reich decades ago will today continue to support the terroristic Nazi regime of Israel...
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Now we all learn that even a nation like Israel with the tragical history of the jews killed by the Nazis has become exactly the same like the German Reich under Hitler."
There see. Just when I'm trying to see both sides of the picture. A moron shows up.
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Wasn't this whole conflict started with Israelis occupying the palestinian soil? They aren't fighting back with no reason..
Every suicide bomber is a desperate action by someone trying to defend his country without an army. The irony of the thing is though that by doing terror, they hurt the public image way more than help their country.. But desperate people do desperate things. The whole conflict has really gone to the level of insanity there - on both sides. I fully agree on Jospin's demand for both Arafat and Sharon to resign, they have been in this conflict way too long and its way too personal between the two leaders.
The US gives 6 billion dollars of foreign aid to Israel annually if I recall correctly, just start by cutting that out now that they're so superior.
This is just another religious crazy war. The jews think the land is their God given right, while palestinians think the same, just different god. The war will never ever end untill one of the peoples have been genocided.
I think this is ultimately the goal of Israel, they know historically it's the only way to go. The palestinians seem to fully agree since they keep blowing themselves up :confused:
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"This is just another religious crazy war. The jews think the land is their God given right, while palestinians think the same, just different god"
The Jewish, Christian and Islamic god are the same God. For example IIRC the muslims belive in the story of adam and eve. They also recognize Christ as "prophet", etc. I find silly all these religious wars between the three while they all belive and worship the same god...
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Well I agree that it seems to be the same god, Islam has strong influence from christianity.
Nevertheless they are two very different religions, one of the prime issues is that there is a jewish tempel built on the vicinity of the torn down old mosque (if they believed in same thing, wouldn't it be the same if there is a temple or a mosque??)
IMO all wars based on religion are totally futile. I can't understand someone killing for his belief. I'm an agnostic and I have the firm belief that all religions are a mix of mass hysteria, superstition and collective insanity.
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How can one even begin to compare the Israelis with Nazis?
Nazis- Ethnic cleansing and invasion of Europe
Israelis- Precision strikes against military targets in Palestine
Of course if you dig deep enough you can find similarities
Nazis-Carried weapons
Israelis-Carry weapons
You see, the Nazis and Israelis do have something in common!
On a side note, why don't the Israelis use M1 tanks?
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If you do body count over the last year, or go back even further, you will see that a larger number of "innocent" Palestinians have died as a result of Israeli military actions compared to the number of Israelis killed by nail bombers.
Only the Israelis do it with weapons provided by my country. The Palestinians are struggling against their Zionist opressor. They fight back with the tools they have. For the most part its children with rocks vrs apcs and soldiers with m16s.
When you hear on the news "Israel responded today by shelling XXX town killing 12 Palestinians" who do you think they killed? The terrorist standing on top of a roof with a bullzi on his head?
On NBC's today they interviewed 2 journalists that were targeted by Israeli soldiers. One was shot in the neck. To hear them (the journalist) tell it they were clearly indentified as journalist. Also an Italian priest was reported killed in Bethlehem. I dont think it was confirmed. I left for work soon after that report and didn't get home until late.
The Jewish, Christian and Islamic god are the same God. For example IIRC the muslims belive in the story of adam and eve. They also recognize Christ as "prophet", etc. I find silly all these religious wars between the three while they all belive and worship the same god...
I wouldn't say that. They all trace their religious beliefs bac to the Torah (or abraham) but they take clearly different paths. The Koran, the New testament and the Talmud (it is this book(s) of Jewish laws that guides Israeli religious teaching) all reflect a complete different world and theological view.
At Khaibar, where a lot of Jews lived, Mohammad was once offered a meal by a Jewish woman. However, the woman's plot was to poison the meal so that Mohammad may die. The Jews thought that if Mohammad was true, then he wouldn't eat it, and if he was false, he would eat it.
Well he ate it and died. The Jews also Crucfied Christ. So if your a religious nut bag (which I am not) its not hard to see why their hatred for each other goes way back.
The question is do you believe a Israeli life is more important the a Palestinian? And do they Palestinians have an obligation to there children to secure there future free of opression?
I certainly wouldn't support the US or the UN going to war to secure Palestine anything. But I think it would be correct to either support the Palestinians financially and militarily or better yet wirhdraw our support for Israel.
The world screwed up after world war 2 and it is too late now to remove the entrenched Jews. However let them bare the financial cost.
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Israel developed its own line of tanks to fit its requirements. They also have the advantage of being built completly in Israel so to be independant of other nations.
Anyway fdiron Isreal is pretty nasty military state cloaked in a shiny aura of democracy and a stunningly effective PR and lobby campaign by American Jews. Though I must admit some of their militarism is appealing to me and I wish they were open about it. :)
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One BIG difference between the Israelis and the Nazis....
If you leave the Israelis alone, they pretty much leave you alone.
In '48, within 24 hours of statehood, 5 Arab armies launched a war against the Israelis. That war has never really ended.
In '39, the Nazis plunged the entire world into war when they attacked Poland.
..... and we won't even go into things like that tiny little difference of loading people into railroad cars and shipping them to places where they could be mass-murdered more efficiently.
Israelis as Nazis? Hardly. May the world never forget the difference... although some seem to be trying to blur it right now.
...and NO, I'm not a fan of Israel.
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If the german TV compares jews to nazis,would that make the germans feel less shame about the holocaust?
Maybe,but it worries me a great deal...
We might see jews lynched on the streets of europe soon again.
And that is the reason why Israel must be.
There was one thing the jews learned from the holocaust,and it`s:
NEVER AGAIN
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In '39, the Nazis plunged the entire world into war when they attacked Poland.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. The Germans and Soviets invaded poland. The British And French declared war. Even then The events that followed were not set in stone.
During the "phoney war" period all sides seem content simply "being at war" Except the Royal Navy and Kriegsmarine. Had the french and English been serious about going to war if Germany invaded Poland they would have made some preperation and invaded Germany the second German troops stepped into Poland.
The polish campaign lasted what 4 weeks? (sept 1 till oct 6 when last of the poles surrender).
The "phoney war" peroid was some 7 months then norway and denmark were invaded.
I would say May 10 when france was invaded is when the Nazis plunged the world into the war. No one in the west really a gave a crap about poland or most of eastern Europe. If they did you would have thought they would not have settled on the 50 years of Soviet occupation so easily. The west was in no position to stop Soviets but I would have imagined a harder push to berlin by the western Allies. aka Patton style.
the brits and french had seven months to plan and nothing came of it. They were whooped in 6 weeks.
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Wotan, you want to argue over the date? Fine.
Most historians are going with the Nazi invasion of Poland but I'm sure you can convince them to rewrite all the books.
Pick whatever date you like......... the agressors never change in the scenario; it's always the same.
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Straffo,
I was kinda cheating by including the French as one of the nations the U.S. has been at war with. I was referring to the French & Indian war and it occurred prior to independence.
F.
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I wouldn't say that. They all trace their religious beliefs bac to the Torah (or abraham) but they take clearly different paths. The Koran, the New testament and the Talmud (it is this book(s) of Jewish laws that guides Israeli religious teaching) all reflect a complete different world and theological view.
quote:
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At Khaibar, where a lot of Jews lived, Mohammad was once offered a meal by a Jewish woman. However, the woman's plot was to poison the meal so that Mohammad may die. The Jews thought that if Mohammad was true, then he wouldn't eat it, and if he was false, he would eat it.
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Well he ate it and died. The Jews also Crucfied Christ. So if your a religious nut bag (which I am not) its not hard to see why their hatred for each other goes way back.
I'm sorry but this sounds like someone throwing a hand grenade and then denying it.
If it's just a troll, it is pretty sick.
And the God of Abraham is the same God in all three religions Wotan...no question about that. They only differ on how he should be worshipped.
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Read my post
I wouldn't say that. They all trace their religious beliefs bac to the Torah (or abraham) but they take clearly different paths. The Koran, the New testament and the Talmud (it is this book(s) of Jewish laws that guides Israeli religious teaching) all reflect a complete different world and theological view
what in that statement is inaccurate?
Well he ate it and died. The Jews also Crucfied Christ. So if your a religious nut bag (which I am not) its not hard to see why their hatred for each other goes way back.
If you believe in any of these religions then you know this is accurrate. I dont I dont care who killed who or when. I am not religous.
Throwing a hand granade? Thats a reply to gruen's statement. One that reflects the extremist religious views of all sides. And what am I denying? Where did I deny it?
Wotan, you want to argue over the date? Fine.
Most historians are going with the Nazi invasion of Poland but I'm sure you can convince them to rewrite all the books.
Pick whatever date you like......... the agressors never change in the scenario; it's always the same.
I have this ability to read and make my own judgemets. However there are many who would go alll the way back to world war 1 and to the great depression to find the root causes of ww2. The polish invasion was the event that lead to war. But it hardly plunged the world into anything.
The fact is that prior to the invasion of norway and denmark there was very little war at all over the previous 9 months. (except naval).
In '39, the Nazis plunged the entire world into war when they attacked Poland
But the thing about your statement here is you claim that the whole world was plunged into war. Thats not at all accurate because at that time total war, war that would come to involve the entire world was not a certainty until france fell. At that point there could and would be no quarter offered to germany.
As to your non-germane section about "getting whooped". Yeah they did. They hadn't spent near as long building a military and preparing to conquer the world as the other side had prior to the balloon going up. What would one expect?
non-germane. section........?
well it was a sentence I guess. But its very germane, had the french and brits, who had made atleast political plans to address german aggression, took the 9 months or so of the "phoney war" peroid to strengthen their defensive position they may not have been so easily whooped and the world may have been spared that plunge
But I guess thats a bit much to expect from 2 super powers with better equipment, supplies and a clearly better defensive position.
I dont think I was argueing anything just stating my opinion as it related to your statement.
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simple question to avoid the dancing you're doing.
Were the Nazis the military aggressors?
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absolutely where did I say other wise?
My criticism of france and britan only relates to their inability to take care of their own back yard.
I made the same statements against the eu as it related to the balkans.
Unless you are saying I am a nazi or closet Serb lover I am missing something..... :confused:
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alot of dipshits around here
btw i actually agree with easymo. for once. i think truman was an bellybutton to involve us with israel but now that they are an ally it is our responsibility to stand by them.
oh and the idiots who compare israel to the third reich are just that.
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Originally posted by Zigrat
alot of dipshits around here
btw i actually agree with easymo. for once. i think truman was an bellybutton to involve us with israel but now that they are an ally it is our responsibility to stand by them.
oh and the idiots who compare israel to the third reich are just that.
We were waiting for the King Dipshit to arrive...oh look, he's here.
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If you leave the Israelis alone, they pretty much leave you alone.
In '48, within 24 hours of statehood, 5 Arab armies launched a war against the Israelis. That war has never really ended.
Toad, I'm sorry if it seems I'm only responding to your posts, it's just coincidence on the two threads.
The UN agreed a partition plan for Israel/Palestine in 1948.
Before partition was implemented, the Israelis launched a series of military operations against towns and villages that were earmarked for the Palestinian territories.
Look up Operation Nachshon, which involved attacks on Arab villages on the road to Jerusalem, the shelling and occupation of Jaffa, Haifa, Tiberias etc. It led to the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from territory that had been granted to them under the partition plan.
All this happened before partition, before independance, and before the Arab armies became involved.
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Well, it took a minute, but I finally found refrence to the death of Muhammad. It would seem that the story of the poisoning by the Jewish woman is just that...a story. And it would further seem that much of your historical refrence Wotan is skewed towards either a pro-nazi revisionist view, or an anti-jewish view. This is just an opinion of mine, but I cite the following:
1. When Grunherz noted that all three religions worshiped the same God your reply was "I wouldn't say that.....".
2. The story of the poisoning by the Jewish woman is contrary to almost every account of the death of Muhammad. Here is a link (http://users.erols.com/zenithco/death.html) that goes into some detail. All other accounts of his death are completely unrelated to this poisoning. Basically he died quietly of old age.
3. "The Jews crucified Christ". I thought it was a Roman execution. Sure the Pharasi (sp) wanted him gone too, but this is debatable. What really seemed to point out your agenda is the way you disclaimed the religious aspect as not yours...just something you heard..right. Sounds like flame fanning to me.
4. Your contention that the Nazis didn't push the world into war...Oh wait....by invading Poland. Wasn't the mutual protection alliance between Poland and England / France involved here? Or are you saying it was England and Frances fault for not winning sooner? Or should the USSR take equal blame for the war?
5. "The Palestinians are struggling against their Zionist opressor." Are all Israelis Zionists now?
6. "The world screwed up after world war 2 and it is too late now to remove the entrenched Jews. However let them bare the financial cost." Entrenched jews? Entrenched in their own land? You couldn't be refering to the occupied territories because that would have nothing to do with WW2. So one can only assume that you mean the Jews are entrenched in Israel.
Transparent as hell.
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look what I posted and stated was not my personal view go read the original post. I follow no religion.
I wouldn't say that. They all trace their religious beliefs bac to the Torah (or abraham) but they take clearly different paths. The Koran, the New testament and the Talmud (it is this book(s) of Jewish laws that guides Israeli religious teaching) all reflect a complete different world and theological view
Read that. The point being that although each of these of religious beliefs may have originated from the same point, the torah and its account of abraham.
However they take totally diferent paths in terms of their world and theological view. Very different from each other not just in religious ceromony but in their relatonship to "God". Each believing and professing their version of God to be true.
I then go on to the most extreme religious view and stated
Well he ate it and died. The Jews also Crucfied Christ. So if your a religious nut bag (which I am not) its not hard to see why their hatred for each other goes way back.
See where it clearly states . So if your a religious nut bag .
But you obvisously missed it there so in my reply to your post I clarified it further.
Thats a reply to gruen's statement. One that reflects the extremist religious views of all sides.
In the context of this thread which touches upon the historical hatred I figured I would include that.
FYI
I am anti-Zionist as can be. I am against the US aiding Israel in anyway. I would be all for supporting the palestinians to the same degree that we have supported Israel. I would prefer we put a cage around that area and let the animals sort it out.
If you think being anti-Israel or ant-Zionist equates to being a Nazi or Anti-Jewish in general say so. My views are clearly expressed. If you missed them do a search of my posts related to this subject going bac over the 2 years I've been here you will that I have been consistant in my belief.
Its not their land it was strong armed away by Jewish pressure groups of the same sort used by the palestinians today. Nashwans post touches upon it. There was a post that goes in depth abourt the situation that finally lead to the state of Israel.
Again do yourself a search.
If this post got you hot do a search on some of my other replies to threads like these. Your head might explode.
Your reaching in your conclusions and for the most part I dont care. But dont misconstrue what I wrote to suit your leftist world view.
4. Your contention that the Nazis didn't push the world into war...Oh wait....by invading Poland. Wasn't the mutual protection alliance between Poland and England / France involved here? Or are you saying it was England and Frances fault for not winning sooner? Or should the USSR take equal blame for the war?
Now again you are just making stuff up. Read what I stated in a reply to Toad.
6. "The world screwed up after world war 2 and it is too late now to remove the entrenched Jews. However let them bare the financial cost." Entrenched jews? Entrenched in their own land? You couldn't be refering to the occupied territories because that would have nothing to do with WW2. So one can only assume that you mean the Jews are entrenched in Israel.
Your all over road here mate. The world (uno) screwed up after world war 2 when they allowed Israel to become a state without giving the palestinians the same or ensuring them some sort of legal protection. The Israelis then expanded into territory that was not given to them by the uno. Again theres been numerous post that go into detail here. The Jews forced Palestinians from their homes and bull dozed them. They then built settlements and pushed the palestinians out even further.
Do a search on Hebron.
Your arguement is all the over place its not worth me typing any more.
To spare yourself in the future let me suggest that you put me in your ignore list.
Enjoy :p
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Originally posted by Nashwan
All this happened before partition, before independance, and before the Arab armies became involved.
Ah, before they were a nation state and were still just garden-variety terrorists?
OK, I understand that and basically agree.
Now find some instances after Statehood, say between the '48 and '73 wars where they acted agressively when no provocation existed.
:)
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Originally posted by Wotan
absolutely where did I say other wise?
So I guess you were just quibbling over the date, over using '39? Like nearly every historian and history book uses.
OK, thx for clearing that up.
The rest of it is for another thread I'd think.
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If there was a vote to ban all religions, I'd go.
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Originally posted by Furious
Straffo,
I was kinda cheating by including the French as one of the nations the U.S. has been at war with. I was referring to the French & Indian war and it occurred prior to independence.
F.
rotfl ;)
It puzzled me enought to search a bit on this topic without finding anything than some (I don't now if it's the correct expression) "chicken game" and diplomatic agitation :)
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Originally posted by Wotan
But I guess thats a bit much to expect from 2 super powers with better equipment, supplies and a clearly better defensive position.
(I'm only speaking of France)
Better equipement ???
On paper perhaps but crew were not trained enought.
And the better equipement was not availlable in number.
Plus the HQ guy were thinking of another trench war not blitzkrieg ... even if the concept was formulated and tested in the early 30's by an unknown General called de Gaulle...
IMO would have France and BEF invade Germany when the german army was busy in Poland things should have got a complete different outcome.
Btw you have to know that the french population was very reluctant to enter war ,the scar of WWI were still open :(
And french people were not made ready to war by huge propaganda preasure like the german.
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OK Wotan, I do not care a whit what your ideologies are, as long as we all stick to the facts.
I did find something interesting...
"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."
-- Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937
"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not"
-- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to
Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946
"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
-- Delegate of Saudi Arabia to the
United Nations Security Council, 1956,
Now I'm not so naive to not see this as Isreali propoganda, but even propoganda (the best propoganda) sometimes has a large element of truth. Basically what this site was saying is that there was no "Palistinian national movement" prior to the 1967 war. In other words, the Palestinians didn't care about having a homeland when they were occupied by Jordan.
So is the Palistinian Nation a concoction of Arafat to try to grab power from a vacuum?
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A question to Wotan.
Where did you get the idea that "goy" means "kettle" ?
I asked about it from people that speak hebrew and they told me "goy" means "nation".Kind of like all other nations.
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1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."
2. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."
3. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."
4. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."
5. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."
6. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."
7. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."
8. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."
I never said "goy" translated directy to "cattle" (not kettle) It does translate to Nation but its a term used to seperate jews from non-jews.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
goy
PRONUNCIATION: goi
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. goy·im (goim) or goys
Offensive Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew.
ETYMOLOGY: Yiddish, from Hebrew gôy, Jew ignorant of the Jewish religion, non-Jew. See gwy in Appendix II.
OTHER FORMS: goyish —ADJECTIVE
It depends on the context that the word is used. Where btw did I say that "goy" only meant cattle?
It would be like me saying shikse meant unclean meat .......
But this is beside the point of this thread.
Now I'm not so naive to not see this as Isreali propoganda, but even propoganda (the best propoganda) sometimes has a large element of truth. Basically what this site was saying is that there was no "Palistinian national movement" prior to the 1967 war. In other words, the Palestinians didn't care about having a homeland when they were occupied by Jordan.
So is the Palistinian Nation a concoction of Arafat to try to grab power from a vacuum?
Theres been plenty of discussion on this board about that very same point. I really dont know why you are bringing it up to me. Read Nashwans post and search the board here for more detail.
Whether there was or wasn't a nation called specifically "Palestine" even the Israelis have recognized that the Palestinians have a right to govern themselves. So has the United States and most of the world. So the question is not did it ever exist. It becomes a question of when will it be realized.
They have a right to live free of humiliation. To develope their economy, and provide for themselves.
Again why do you find it necessary to pull an arguement out of thin air. I think you should calm down read what I wrote. I have contended that the Israelis have taken land and property from the Palestinians (the people not the nation) that was not granted to them by the uno. They did this prior to the '67 war. They have built settlements in the occupied territories after the series of arab wars. They deny any rights to those arabs living in under Israeli law. They have rounded up and put in camps any one then think could be a "terrorist" without a hearing or charges.
So if you look at the whole picture you can see why some folks would decide to fight back.
I do not support my governments support of Israel at any level and I believe we should offer the same type of aid to the palestinians that we historical have given to Israel. Absent that we should leave them (israeli and palestinian) to themselves.
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Jezz, Wotan, any of those writings less than a thousand years old?
Chit, plenty of bugs under the christian rugs too.
I absolutely agree with you regarding our insane knee jerk national 'hey, they're our pals, whatever they do to the towelheads is kewl' reaction to what israel has done in recent years.. we shoulda cut the miserable lyin toejamheads off last january and suspended all isreali aid, cause frankly their culpability in creating this crisis is writ large in sharons policy book.
Yes.. palestine deserves and requires recognition as a state, and we should support it as enthusiasticly as we supported isreal when they became a state.
unfortunately, regardless of the cause of the current crisis, the palestinian policy of loading dynamite onto kamakazi bounty earners and dispatching them into isreal ain't doin palestine any fediddlein good at all.
*sigh* it'll wind up a bloody mess... but when it's over, and arafat been hung up by his kaftan and sharon gets pitched out in a 'no confidence' vote for stirrin up the toejam, maybe the next two poindexters in charge will get something done that resembles a 'peace'... or we'll be sampling the radioactivity index on arab oil this time next year.
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I believe what we are seeing here is about land -- pure and simple and very calculated on the Israeli side. The Palestinians want a state and the Zionist elements in Israel want the West Bank to transition from the “occupied territories” to "Eretz Israel". There is a clearly defined Zionist ideal of a greater Israel reaching the Jordan River, encompassing biblical Judea and Samaria, and it is no secret that Sharon is a committed Zionist. And, in a practical sense, you have to have some place to put a half million Russian Jewish émigrés with potentially a million more or so on the horizon.
The approach to establish Israel itself, set by early European Zionists like Chaim Weizmann, involved creating a state by diffusion -- allow enough emigration and eventually you have the critical mass on the ground in the region to create a homeland where one wouldn’t exist otherwise. Both the immediate pre and post World War 2 emigration surge dramatically speeded up the process, with David Ben Gurion leading the charge. Looking at the current West Bank situation, you can see the same mechanisms in action. A regular settlement process over decades, with little international concern as long as it’s not too violent or overt, and pretty soon the West Bank is part of Israel and TS for the Palestinians. It almost seems as if Sharon took the Ben Gurion example to heart and decided it’s time to speed up the process. After all, he’s not getting any younger and there’s not much time left to see his Zionist dreams realized and set his place in the national mystique.
The initial provocation began with Sharon’s visit to the contested holy site Al-Haram al-Sharif. I wonder how calculated that event was? Sharon certainly must have known it would lead to some level of violent reaction. Even if it was just a ham-fisted blunder, the definition of “crisis” means both danger and opportunity, and there is certainly opportunity for Israeli Zionists in this crisis particularly after the WTC attack. I’m sure we can all recall, with just a little effort, any number of Israeli provocations during the sporadic quiet periods after the unrest began -- bulldozing some homes in a village or a casual assassination by TOW missile -- that would almost certainly be guaranteed to generate a counter response from Hamas. The same goes for the “no violence” before negotiating conditions where extremist like Hamas, who are likely not under the direct control of Arafat and likely not interested in a peace that recognizes the existence of Israel, would be guaranteed to play into the Israel’s hands. Sharon can therefore proceed as he wishes and continually spin the situation as the victim.
In a nation of over 6 million people, the 250 Israeli dead, while tragic on the personal level, can easily be seen by calculating individuals as a small price to pay to achieve the greater goals of Zionism. In fact, statistically most Israeli’s don’t even know first hand any victim of the terrorist bombings, and in fact likely don’t even know one second hand. Further, maintaining the current state of fear and unrest unifies public support behind Sharon’s leadership (not guaranteed at all, otherwise) and make the “dove” position less tenable, though it very well could back fire for him politically if things stay at the quagmire state.
Toad, as usual you raise some succinct points. Unfortunately, a contemporary land for peace initiative, while being fair, will likely fall on deaf ears since I doubt Israel’s current leadership wants peace without the eventual likelihood of having most, or at least the best, of the land as well. Israel might have been serious about land for peace immediately after the Six Day War (though the original offer was limited and on Israel’s terms), but if so then times have certainly changed over the decades of occupation. Yizhak Rabin was getting close to peace for land and we know what happened to him. Barak almost got as close, but Arafat dropped that ball and then Sharon decided to pay his infamous little visit and the rest is history. Some editorial writers have suggested that the UN move in and impose a settlement, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen. Cutting off funding for Israel is likely a pipe dream as well, though people do seem to be asking a few hard questions now about our Middle East policy, both in the media and on the street.
Israel isn’t all that unusual in how it is trying to grow its state. Most posters on this board live in countries where very similar efforts exist in the historical record. Unfortunately, and ironically, the lessons of Nazi Germany that we are compelled to remember also include frowning on the mighty taking land from the weak, as well as the lessons about naked racial genocide. Had Israel been founded 100 years earlier, or even fifty years, then the Palestinian question would likely just be a lamentable historical footnote. Of course, Israel couldn’t have existed then because there were far too few Jews in the region.
A few other asides:
-- As for Israel being a democracy, well, you have to be Jewish for that to apply. A theocracy is the more correct definition I believe.
-- IMO the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is off base. A better comparison would be between Israel and apartheid South Africa or the Indian Wars of the Old West. However, the process of “non-precise” retaliation (I don’t believe there are sniper scopes on 155 howitzers) is clearly for intimidation purposes rather than an honest attempt to target legitimate individuals. Much like the Nazi policy of local retribution in response to partisan activities. There seems to be a disconnect, though, in many people’s understanding of the similarities between an individual strapping a bomb on his or her body and blowing up civilians to intimidate and another individual firing a howitzer at a village and blowing up civilians to intimidate. Frankly, it confuses me. If the Israelis are truly making an effort to be precise in their targeting then there has to be an extreme failure somewhere, because you don’t kill far more civilians fighting terrorism than the terrorists kill in return. The death toll is still about 900 Palestinians to 250 Israelis since the unrest began. If you just look at the latest and most intense terrorist campaign, the Israelis are still ahead by about 10 during the same period.
-- There are elements on both sides driven by feelings of religious hatred/superiority. Hamas seems to fall into this category, as do the ultra-orthodox Jews who describe the Palestinians in very Nazi-like rhetoric (animals, subhuman, etc. well before the current problems flared up). For perspective, one of these ultra-orthodox Jewish leaders recently said that the European Jews deserved the holocaust because they had become religiously soft and secular -- how very Bin Laden like.
-- Are all terrorists the same? I don’t believe Arafat falls in the extremist category, being a “statehood terrorist” in the same vein as Menachem Begin or Yitzhak Shamir. If anything, the Zionist groups like the Stern Gang and Irgon helped establish that a campaign of terrorism can be very useful in creating a state. IMO it’s very likely that Arafat would accept a reasonable live and let live agreement that offered the Palestinians more than just a token state with continual servitude to the Israeli masters. It’s hard to say if he has any real control over other organizations like Hamas, which is a fundamentalist terrorist organization funded and controlled by the same elements that supported Bin Laden in a drive for a broadly regional overthrow of secular, moderate governments.
-- Hangtime, I have generally agreed with your position that the terrorist attacks fail to do the Palestinians any good. Lately though... would anybody even be paying attention to the plight of the Palestinians without those attacks or would the world turn around some day after the millionth Jewish settler established the final foothold in Judea and say: "oh my, nothing we can do about a homeland now."
Further, does Hamas really care for, represent or act in the best interests of the Palestinians? In a black and white world the palestinian people, Arafat and Hamas are all the same, just as Israelis are all of one mind. It's really a world of grey with different players and groups having different objectives and trying real hard to make sure the message is black and white to achieve their PR goals.
The Israelis didn't dance in the streets after the WTC but rest assured there were some who saw that as a very positive development for their strategic goals. There are also Israelis who don't care about the West bank, and even support a far more democratic and secular state, and even American Jews who protest Israel's actions at great social risk within the Jewish community.
Charon
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Well written and nicely presented Charon.
I believe I did use the words "Pollyanna" and "never happen" in my posts, however. ;)
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"Lately though... would anybody even be paying attention to the plight of the Palestinians without those attacks"
I wont speak for hang, of course. But I've been hearing about the Palestinians since the 60's. My opinion of those dip toejams has not changed once in 3 decades. Its just more of the same. Terrorism has never worked. And we can never let it work, at any cost.
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DOH! of course Toad. I think I knew that when I started developing the post about four hours ago :) All that fact checking can be a squeak.
Charon
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I wont speak for hang, of course. But I've been hearing about the Palestinians since the 60's. My opinion of those dip toejams has not changed once in 3 decades. Its just more of the same. Terrorism has never worked. And we can never let it work, at any cost.
Menachem Begin might disagree with you Easymo. There is a brutal picture in a book I have showing two British soldiers strung up by their necks in tree by Zionist terrorists circa 1947. Futher, their bodies were booby trapped which caused additional casualities when they were cut down. Then there was the King David hotel bombing, a number of other significant incidents as well as the casual drive by shootings. Terrorism helped get the British out, helped establish the state of Israel and ultimately helped put the refugees on the roads out of their lands according to some.
Charon
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Lately though... would anybody even be paying attention to the plight of the Palestinians without those attacks or would the world turn around some day after the millionth Jewish settler established the final foothold in Judea and say: "oh my, nothing we can do about a homeland now."
Prior to 9/11, it looked to me like Palestinian Statehood was a certainty.. there was a slowly growing groundswell of support here and abroad for the palestinian cause.. hell even the dufus in the whitehouse mentioned palestininan statehood. since the guys a parrot, he musta heard it somewere important.
since 9/11, there's been a lot less sentiment for arab anything, and sharon instantly upped his provocative actions.. sparking the usual knee-jerk arab KKK moronic terrorist moves. *sigh*
Whats gonna happen now??? I dunno. I'm reminded of the circus elephant with diahreha.. they pounded a cork in it's bellybutton so the show could go on.. and promptly forgot about it. A week later, when the cork finally popped; the only thing the surviving eyewitnesses could report was "miles and miles of toejam." Nobody saw the elephant (or the cork) and the guys that pounded it in didn't survive the toejamstorm.
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Not when I'm having my evening Camomile Tea fer pete's sake!
You know what 18-year-old tea costs? Now it's dripping down the screen. Circus elephant... roflmao!
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Hang, I agree completely. There was even negative Israeli press in the US media. The comment was more of a pondering than anything else about how little attention anyone pays to such issues unless the bodies start piling up.
Still though, I do not really believe the ultimate aims of Hamas and Arafat are the same. Arafat is probably too secular for Hamas anyway in the long run. Hamas is a thorn in Arafat's side that he likely couldn't pluck if he wanted to, and an easy tool for Israellis like Sharon to use to make sure that Arafat's root cause, Palestinian statehood, slips into the background. All the Israeli hawks have to do is make sure they're all painted with the same brush. Here's a good link I came across citing the similarities and differences between the PLO and Hamas, showing why peace and statehood mean different things to each organizations:HAMAS (http://www.terrorism.com/terrorism/HAMAS.shtml)
A quote:
Speculation is rampant that the group may be altering its focus from Islamic nationalism to the creation of an Islamic society. Whatever their new goals, it is acknowledged that the future of HAMAS lies in the results of the PLO-Israeli peace accords. If the PLO is able to accomplish its goals, it will grow stronger and HAMAS weaker. If, however, the negotiations break down, HAMAS is situated perfectly to challenge the PLO for the Palestinian leadership role. As of this writing, HAMAS and its armed militant wing known as Iz el-Deen, carries out continued bombings (including a large number of suicide bombings), assassinations, and kidnappings of those opposed to its existence. Primary targets are Jewish settlers as they are usually unarmed and traveling in buses. This makes them all the more appealing as they present the greatest opportunity for the infliction of casualties. HAMAS' existence has been complicated slightly by the January 24, 1995 Executive Order, signed by President Clinton which prohibits transactions with the group due to their potential for disrupting the Middle East peace process. includes: Iz el-Deen (al-Qassam) Forces
Charon
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I could show you ugly pictures of the results of terror attacks that occurred during the American civil war. So what. They had nothing to do with the war being won. This can be said of nearly every major conflict.
The Sanctions, and recognition, that toad has carefully provided elsewhere, are what put Israel on the map. Not some thug,s.
If we allow terrorism to work. No one, in any country in the world, will ever be able to feel secure again.
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Yup.. arafat had his chance to distance himself from Hammas and Hezbollah, snag the ring and get a palestinian state.... and he blew it. I think the bonehaid actually fell into the same trap poorly advised unprofessional politicians usually do.. he started beliving his own rhetoric.
And I agree.. hammas and hezbolla have divergent goals from al fatah.. and now that it's very clear to the world there is no credible 'palestinian leader'. Result: it's now a strictly lose-lose deal for the people of palestine.... and it's way to late for arafat, israel or the US to try and put the cork back in.
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sorry hang I was replying to caligulas question.
not to prove any point related to this thread.
Charon nice post there,,,,,,,,
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Have any of you taken notice where all of this is taking place? i mean is it the least ironic that its in the most holy areas ever and it all fits in to what was told in revelation. i dont have a specific religion right now, but i do know that revelations talks a lot of violence in the holy region. i wouldnt condone for either side. but coming from the US where religion isnt taken seriously i dont think many of us americans realize the strength of religion in those countries. religion here barely can get a man out of bed on his worship day, but in arab and jewish countries it can drive him to kill himself and others.
And who should be supported? neither. both sides are reacting with brawn instead of brains, so if either side would learn to use their head instead of their gun maybe the fighting would stop. im only seventeen so im just trying to say what i think of all of this, so if im totally wrong go easy cuz im still learning. just my two cents, maybe a dollar
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Yeah, the Elephant toejam is pretty deep right now. The only hope I see for a reasonable settlement is the fact that there is more neutral coverage and a more neutral position in Washington than I've seen for quite some time, even today. And as you say, it's hard to see how Arafat can provide any positive leadership, but I'm not sure if the alternative would be any better. The streets have a mind of their own, and one that may not be receptive to moderation anymore.
The Sanctions, and recognition, that toad has carefully provided elsewhere, are what put Israel on the map. Not some thug,s.
If we allow terrorism to work. No one, in any country in the world, will ever be able to feel sacure again.
easymo, I give the Zionists far more credit for achieving their goals with their own trigger fingers. They had a long term plan -- spaced out over decades -- which they executed at numerous levels to achieve statehood. International help was a part of that, as was terrorism which did provide sufficient supporting incentives to the process. However, the Zionists did the lion's share on their own and could have been successful without the support, but only without significant opposition as well, IMO.
I agree there is no place for terrorism in the world. At the same time, I don't see a place for territorial ambition that substitutes a 500lb gp bomb for a bunch of dynamite strapped to someone's body. You can easily execute terrorism using a modern military and a good PR machine. I imagine the average Palestinian civilian is just as terrorized, likely more so, than any Israeli citizen. The goal in this conflict is land, and the Israelis have as much to gain or lose by the current turn of events as the palestinians, and a hawkish faction is acting accordingly. Again, go back to civil war times and the world doesn't care. Today, well, humanity has made some progress as a whole which at least supports the possibility of world peace at some distant time in the future.
Charon
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Fine post Sharkm8, keep on learning. I'm 38 years old a have a staggering amount of ignorance myself :)
And who should be supported? neither. both sides are reacting with brawn instead of brains, so if either side would learn to use their head instead of their gun maybe the fighting would stop.
You are absolutely correct.
Charon
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Charon, Salute mate.
I hope you don't mind. I've crossposted your post to AGW where similar discussions are taking place.
http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/agw//Forum7/HTML/003830.html
One classy post.
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No problem at all Ski, tnks to those who have appreciated it. It's about the third time I've developed such a post on these boards so I would hope my position is a bit polished by now. I just wish the possibility of a better resoultion to the situation was as possible today as it was the first time, which wasn't all that long ago. At some point the hatred becomes so ingrained that a level-headed thinking solution becomes practically impossible.
Charon
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Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives. --FBI Definition
The key word there is UNLAWFUL
When Quantrills raiders rode on Lawrence Kan. And went about slaughtering its civilians. That was recognized as an unlawful act by every one. That was an act of terrorism. And is notorious to this day.
As horrible as organized warfare is. It does have some rules. As flimsy as these rules may be. They keep us from falling into complete chaos. Without them any nitwit with a grudge, might just blow your family up.
When they were small, my children use to, occasionally behave badly, to get my attention. They always wound up regretting it:).
For the Palestinians it would be the same. Right now, I would like to see the Israelis take the Arabs offer based on the 1967 boarders. But if this thing comes down to America being forced to make a choice. Common sense dictates that the lesser evil is to fight against terrorist. This is one Pandoras box no civilized country can afford to leave open.
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Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives. --
Oh I get it!
Like throwing private property from ships, lets say tea bags, and maybe attacking government tax collectors?
Was that Terrorism too?
Its all realtive, all of it is terrorism but not always seen the same by all people.
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Awesome post Charon. A perfect exposition of pure facts and to the point analysis.
Im saving it for reference because it reflects perfectly my own views, which I fail many times to express properly.
Thanks for this island of rational thinking in the sea of flames this question brings upon us :)