Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: takeda on April 02, 2002, 08:45:16 AM
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I'm all for the US attacking and bringing into line rogue states in the Middle East with the following
characteristics:
- Continous threat to the stability of the region.
- Production and storage of mass destruction weaponry.
- Threats and attacks on neighbouring countries.
- Non compliance with UN resolutions.
- Unlawful occupation of land out of their borders.
- Refusal of international monitoring of their questioned activities.
- Mistreat of ethnic/religious minorities
- Government approved human rights violations.
Hint: Those states mostly seem to have their name starting with "I" and they leaders commonly
used names are known to start with "S".
If you find more than one country conforming to this profile and honestly think only one of those
should be punished for it, please explain us why you would spare the other.
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Were your parents/grandparents Franco supporters by any chance?
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Generally, speaking, if you leave the Israelis alone, they leave you alone.
1948: UN gives Israel statehood. Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country. Blame Israel? Nope.
1956: In contradiction to the UN Security Council resolution of 1 September 1951, Israeli and Israel-bound shipping was prevented from passing through the Suez Canal; the blockade of the Straits of Tiran was tightened; incursions into Israel of terrorist squads from neighboring Arab countries for murder and sabotage occurred with increasing frequency; and the Sinai peninsula was gradually converted into a huge Egyptian military base.
Upon the signing of a military alliance by Egypt, Syria and Jordan (October 1956) Israel attacked to ensure their own survival. In eight days they captured the Gaza Strip and the entire Sinai peninsula, halting 10 miles (16 km.) east of the Suez Canal.
A UN decision to station a UN Emergency Force (UNEF) along the Egypt-Israel border and Egyptian assurances of free navigation in the Gulf of Eilat led Israel to agree to withdraw in stages (November 1956 - March 1957). The Straits of Tiran were opened, enabling trade and oil imports from the Persian Gulf.
Blame Israel? Nope. If Egypt had followed the UN resolution it wouldn't have happened.
1967: Arab terrorist raids across the Egyptian and Jordanian borders, persistent Syrian artillery bombardment of agricultural settlements in northern Galilee and massive military build-ups by the neighboring Arab states. Egypt moved troops into the Sinai desert (May 1967), ordered the UN peacekeeping forces (deployed since 1957) out of the area, reimposed the blockade of the Straits of Tiran and entered into a military alliance with Jordan.
Egypt had violated the arrangements agreed upon following the 1956 Sinai Campaign, Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egypt in the south, followed by a counterattack against Jordan in the east and the routing of Syrian forces entrenched on the Golan Heights in the north.
Blame Israel? Nope. If Egypt had followed the UN peace agreement it wouldn't have happened.
1973: Three years of relative calm were shattered when Egypt and Syria launched a coordinated surprise assault against Israel (6 October 1973), with the Egyptian army crossing the Suez Canal and Syrian troops penetrating the Golan Heights.
Blame Israel? Nope. If... well, you get the idea, right?
What's the common denominator? It's not Israeli agression... it's the failure of the various Arab nations to abide by UN resolutions and agreements.
I'm not presently a supporter of Israeli action. They themselves have now gone "over the line" and are in violation of UN resolutions and agreements. In short, they have become indistinguishable from their enemies. But the UN doesn't have the balls to put International Peacekeepers between the Palestinians and the Israelis.
Anyway, this whole sad story has it's roots in the failure of the Arabs to abide by the UN decision on Israel's statehood. I can see where the Israelis.. particularly after what happened in WW2... felt they needed their own state. They got it from the UN. The Arabs, with the exception of Egypt and Jordan, have never accepted that.
It appears to me that the Israelis react to percieved threats to their security immediately and with great force. One would think that the various Arab nations would have this figured out by now and would just leave those crazy bastiges alone.
I have no doubt that Palestinians WOULD have their own state by now if Arafat hadn't bailed out of the last negotiations for statehood before this latest intifada started. (during the Clinton admin.)
Poking the Israelis in the eye with the "violence stick" has been repeatedly proven to be an extremely stupid idea, yet the Arabs, like moths to a flame, seem drawn to repeat the same mistake over and over.
I don't particularly like the state that Israel has become and I think the US is way, way too supportive of them.
However, I think anyone smarter than a stone fence post should have learned by now that you are much better off if you just leave the crazy bastiges ALONE.
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Now that you ask, one of my grandfathers was on the Nationalist Army, mostly office duty and saw just little combat. The other one disapeared, he was in a socialist union, so probably was shot at some backwater road by a falangist death squad.
My parents just tried to teach me not to trust any people whose ideals tend to produce "lead intoxications" in the backs of the heads of their opponents.
And now tell me how this has to do with my Yet Another Middle East Rant?
for Toad. While I agree with you that the greed and even sheer stupidity of many Arab countries is part of the historical roots of this crisis, I do not think you can blame people diying just as I write this for any of that. The founders of Israel were as eager to boot the arabs out of Palestine as the thugs ruling the arab coutries where to drive them to the sea.
But returning to the current situation at hand you have failed to propose additional reasons to attack Iraq, or deny that any of my proposed reasons also can be applied fully to Israel.
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Originally posted by takeda
And now tell me how this has to do with my Yet Another Middle East Rant?
Nothing specific really...you just seem to be anti-Israel and from Spain.
I'm not trying to defend Sharon...but you have a definate one-sided opinion that seems to ignore the Palentinian "faults".
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It is difficult to support Israel at the moment. However - what I remember is that for every pulling the troops/tanks back or a ceasefire by the Israelies a few days later yet another young stupid was blowing him/herself up together with innocent bystanders. It is a strange pattern - Arafat keeps whining about peace in the UN, UN asks Israel to be "good". Israel complies or makes a motion to comply - caboom! Another suicide bomber.
How to resolve this vicious circle of violence? No way to prevent a determined religious fanatic from carrying out an attack. And I can see the Israel's point of view too - what would you have them to do? Turn another cheek and die? Effectively, after September 11th the US took the very same route - they identified where the terrorists were based and blew the place to bits... "Unequal response"? "Tanks against stones"? Hmmm... Again, the "free thinking" sounding rhetorics are great but what would you have done? Send a soldier a day to blow himself up in a Palestinian crowd?...:(
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That is, killing people is BAD.
Killing teens in a disco or a mall is BAD.
Killing teens throwing stones at tank is BAD.
Killing people while they drive their car around is BAD.
Killing even supposed criminals on the spot with an AG missile or a handgun without judge o jury is BAD.
Some of you seem to think that performing some of those activities under a recognised flag, wearing uniforms and serving a "Western Ally" state makes them somewhat less evil.
So I say, among all involved, there are lots of diddlyhead criminals, if you think you can let them have at it, you will be sorry when they carry it over your door (again).
On the Franco thing, he was a midget chubby fascistic idiot with a small d*ck (remember he got my elders shot), but you canīt blame him for the Holocaust, please check this link, you could learn something:
http://www.mae.es/holocaust/Default.htm
In fact, the fringe "Franco lover" groups remaining in Spain fully and rabidly support Israel. (They tend to support the one with the bigger guns and the upper hand and now they hate muslims far more than jews. Funny because Franco's personal guard was a "Moorish Guard" unit from Morocco ).:rolleyes:
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I will never support any arab nation.
My entire life, arab nations have been nothing but lousy trouble. As weapons of mass destruction continue to proliferate it will only be a matter of time before the unimaginable happens and the world will be forced once again to trim its human population by hundreds of millions in very short order.
It does nothing but piss me off just thinking about it. I only hope when the time comes the arab nations are eliminated once and for all and that the rest of the planet can somehow manage to survive.
fediddleing stupid dumb assed idiots will ruin the good life for the rest of us
Ok Yeager... now smile for the camera :)
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I don't see much difference in what Israel is doing, and what we are doing in Afghanistan. We get hit by terrorists, we take the fight to them and stop them cold.
Israel gets hit by terrorists (suicide bombers equate to terrorists in my book) and they take the fight to them and stop them (somewhat).
Thirty, or forty, years ago no one was living in what is modern day Israel. It was a desert, a swamp, and unoccupied. If anything, it was land that robbers and thieves used to attack pilgrim's, migrators, and traders to steal anything of value and murder their victims. Nothing has changed, you see?
I understand the issues are more complicated than this, but it comes down to blind hatred of a religion and therefore a people. It's stupid. That about sums up all wars, though.
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Yeager: you fail to present facts, just general blurry opinions about "not trusting arabs". It is not too grave, you just need to dig a little more to form a real opinion.
Voss: Your case is worse. You are heavily influenced by ultra-nationalist propaganda. You can continue to blind yourself, but if you want to see the truth, I recommend you to broaden your sources of information a bit. Your statements about Palestine being a complete wilderness before the 1940's are just like Holocaust denial. Holocaust deniers should be locked up with the freak rabbis who write those nonsenses. A few "martyr trainer" mullahs and rev Falwell could well join the party.
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don't see much difference in what Israel is doing, and what we are doing in Afghanistan. We get hit by terrorists, we take the fight to them and stop them cold.
Israel gets hit by terrorists (suicide bombers equate to terrorists in my book) and they take the fight to them and stop them (somewhat).
Thirty, or forty, years ago no one was living in what is modern day Israel. It was a desert, a swamp, and unoccupied. If anything, it was land that robbers and thieves used to attack pilgrim's, migrators, and traders to steal anything of value and murder their victims. Nothing has changed, you see?
I understand the issues are more complicated than this, but it comes down to blind hatred of a religion and therefore a people. It's stupid. That about sums up all wars, though.
aggreed 100%
there were many people(including Mark Twain) that described the holy land as an abandoned wasteland around the end of 19. century.
then when jews started to move back there,arabs would start a mass migration as well,to make sure the land remains in arab hands.In islam giving up allready conquered land is unacceptable.
BTW all here talks about a religious war.In fact out of 16million jews only about 1 million are religious.And this figure applies to the whole world.So most israelis are not religious,and god and the tora is not what they`re fighting for.They fight for their lifes,families and homes.
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Ughg, herr sturmbahnfuhrer Caligula is beyond help, he is part of the problem, not the solution.
BTW, nice nick, why should anyone pick it up?:
"Caius Caesar Caligula--Caligula (b. 12 AD, ruled 37-41) was famous for his cruelty and vice and was killed by the praetorian guard."
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I lost patience.
(http://www.israeli-truth.org/Ramallah/26.jpg)
This guy is my enemy and I hate he`s gutts.
They did this (http://www.israeli-truth.org/english/ramallah1.html) (pictures too cruel to post)
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Yes, dead people are not nice to see. And killers are enemies of our species.
Want to count bodies or help to stop them piling?
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Originally posted by takeda
That is, killing people is BAD.
Killing teens in a disco or a mall is BAD.
Killing teens throwing stones at tank is BAD.
Killing people while they drive their car around is BAD.
Killing even supposed criminals on the spot with an AG missile or a handgun without judge o jury is BAD.
Some of you seem to think that performing some of those activities under a recognised flag, wearing uniforms and serving a "Western Ally" state makes them somewhat less evil.
Isreal AND the Palestinians have done all of your "bad items" (with the exception of killing kids throwing rocks at tanks...that one goes solely to Isreal [how smart is that on behalf of the kids btw?])
Your posts seem to lay all of the blame on Israel though....both sides are guilty of atrocities and should stop. By playing the "blame game" the way you are part of the problem....not part of any solution.
You ask later "Want to count bodies or help to stop them piling?" I see nothing in what you have said to suggest you follow you're own advice.
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All I'm proposing is that the get-out-of-jail free card for Israel should have expired a long while ago.
They should be accountable for every death they cause, just the same as anyone.
UN resolutions against them are never enforced, while the bare facts on the ground and the ensuing resolutions are identical to those on the Serbia/KLA case.
Of course they are far tougher guys than Serbs, and heck, they have nukes, and even decide on the ballots of a few states. Should we change the "War on Terror" thing to the "War on Terror_Weak_Enough_And_Non_US _Voter" ?
So, as the Palestinians get their daily share of blame, MANY TIMES WELL DESERVED, enlightened people should know better.
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Originally posted by Toad
Generally, speaking, if you leave the Israelis alone, they leave you alone.
1948: UN gives Israel statehood. Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country. Blame Israel? Nope.
I normally do not respond to these threads, but I think your first statement is the root of the problem, It was not the UN's land to give away! which is one of the root causes of the problems!
I am neither for or against Israel, But what is happing now is Wrong no matter which way you look at it.
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Palestinians are hell bent on being Martyrs, I say give em a helping hand :D
Reastically speaking, mebbe Israel shouldn't have been created. But WTF are you gonna do, boot em out? The only thing that will stop this conflict is a big arse mutha fediddleer Berlin-style wall between em, and the Israeli's booting every Palestinian out. Throw in a little radar location system for those home-made missiles, and level every neighbourhood they launch from - just to stop the tards from throwing rocks over the fence at each other.
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Originally posted by Heater
I normally do not respond to these threads, but I think your first statement is the root of the problem, It was not the UN's land to give away! which is one of the root causes of the problems!
I am neither for or against Israel, But what is happing now is Wrong no matter which way you look at it.
Okay...you are right..it wasn't UN land to give away.
Fact is that the determination of who's land it is/was is right at the heart of the problem and ya gotta go much further back than 1948.
Try going back a few THOUSAND years and you begin to find the root of the problem.
Hey...just look in the bible....there is a little story about a guy named "Moses" who was trying to free his people...the Jews...from slavery at the hands of the Egyptians.
This is about where it all starts.
Then you can play the blame game from this point on...
You know...The Arabs did this, the Jews then did that...etc. etc..
We can talk when you are done...assuming we are still alive.
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Originally posted by takeda
Yeager: you fail to present facts, just general blurry opinions about "not trusting arabs". It is not too grave, you just need to dig a little more to form a real opinion.
Voss: Your case is worse. You are heavily influenced by ultra-nationalist propaganda. You can continue to blind yourself, but if you want to see the truth, I recommend you to broaden your sources of information a bit. Your statements about Palestine being a complete wilderness before the 1940's are just like Holocaust denial. Holocaust deniers should be locked up with the freak rabbis who write those nonsenses. A few "martyr trainer" mullahs and rev Falwell could well join the party.
Takeda: Yeah, I'm a bigot. I was talking about Israel, not Palestine (moron). Thirty to forty years doesn't equate to pre-40's either. Actually, it was more like fifty years.
You're wrong. It was a wasteland. There was nothing there. Nothing. No one wanted it. It's a low spot in the Eastern Med. It wasn't fertile, it had nothing in the way of farm land, until it was cultivated, and it had no mineral value. Inland, quite a ways, was a different story. I have seen lack and white movies of USAAF surveys of the place before it was settled. Dead camels, and nothing else (maybe a donkey carcass).
You can compare it to a rich guy buying out the ghetto's, razing the area, and then building it anew, only to have the neighbors complain, "hey, I would have bought that if..."
It's pure roadkill on the part of the Palestinians.
I defend neither side.
Believe your own crap. I don't care. I'm sick of this crap in the news. I don't care one twit about a bunch of guys with rags on their heads dictating policies to us, as if we had to listen. We don't. They look and sound ridiculous (recall Arafat telling Amanpour to shutup - that was scummy).
The point is, even though Bush is currently denying Palestine is a terrorist state, it is. It's a rotten apple in the barrel of world peace. They need to be cut out and thrown in the rubbish bin, and if that means Arafat has to die, so be it. Now, I'm not for Palestinians being killed indiscriminately. Nor am I for killing Israeli's. I'm for shutting them both up.
This also reminds me of a bunch of cry babies playing snowfort.
My opinion of Israeli's, and Arabs alike, approaches the lowest levels possible with every act of violence between them. Currently, though, my opinion of Palestinians approaches that of gutter rats. That's what their actions have brought them.
I'm starting to think a turd like Saddam makes this salamander Arafat look bad. Now that's low!
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Originally posted by Heater
I normally do not respond to these threads, but I think your first statement is the root of the problem, It was not the UN's land to give away! which is one of the root causes of the problems!
I am neither for or against Israel, But what is happing now is Wrong no matter which way you look at it.
Heater, I think you'll have to go further back than the UN decision as the root of the problem.
THE ORIGINS AND EVOLUTION OF THE PALESTINE PROBLEM 1917-1988 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/dpr/DPR_pp_1.htm)
"The origins of the Palestine problem as an international issue, however, lie in events occurring towards the end of the First World War.
These events led to a League of Nations decision to place Palestine under the administration of Great Britain as the Mandatory Power under the Mandates System adopted by the League. In principle, the Mandate was meant to be in the nature of a transitory phase until Palestine attained the status of a fully independent nation, a status provisionally recognized in the League's Covenant, but in fact the Mandate's historical evolution did not result in the emergence of Palestine as an independent nation."
But even that is really not far enough......
Palestine: History (http://www.usd.edu/erp/Palestine/history.htm)
"Palestine stands alone among the Roman provinces in that here only there existed a national identity strong enough effectively to challenge Roman rule. That identity depended on a body of Hebrew religious writings that constituted a concrete locus for the formation of durable political and religious institutions."
In other words, the Romans didn't call one of the Palestinian provinces "Judaea" for nothing.
But even THAT really isn't far enough....
HISTORY OF THE WORLD (http://www.lukemastin.com/history/ancient_middle_east.html)
-2500 Early Hebrew civilization in Israel area
-1400 Hebrews invade Canaan (Joshua)
-1300 Hebrew Exodus from Egypt under Moses
-1250 Israelites invade Palestine
-1020 Saul becomes King of Israel
-720 Assyrians invade Palestine
So, all this "this land is YOUR land, this land is MY land" stuff is pretty silly isn't it?
I mean, how far back can one go with the "my land" argument "logically" :rolleyes: used to justify the slaughter?
<..and this isn't true of just Palestine either... we can all instantly think of a few other recent examples.>
Clearly, Israel as a state isn't going away. They have worked hard and made the desert bloom. They're ready to fight to the death to keep it. Pushed to the edge, they've got nukes and I think they'd use them. So, as I said upthread, one would think the Arabs would have learned to quit poking them with the "violence stick".
Clearly, the Palestinians deserve the same opportunity the Israelis got. A state of their own and aid to get it going. They'll have the advantage on not being instantly assaulted by five different armies on the declaration of their statehood, too. It may need UN Peacekeepers again on the border for a while, but I'd wager that would be to keep all the would-be moron Arab "martyrs" out of Israel, not to keep Israel out of a legitimate Palestinian state that truly renounced violence..
BUT... dwelling upon who owned what land over the last 3000 years has got them nowhere and is totally non-germane to the current situation.
They HAVE to learn to live together or they'd better be ready to all die together.
FOR TAKEDA:
Rather than editing your earlier posts, if you have something to add, why not make a new post?
I didn't see what you went back and added till just a second ago.. and I'm not sure of the point you're making about Iraq anyway. So, if you want to discuss something else... put it in a sequential post, please. Or at least mark the . Thx.
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nm
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Almost all edits were grammar stuff, not really new things.
The Iraq stuff? It's in the first post, and basically with the irony removed is, why they should be attacked for the very same reasons Israel seems to get away with?
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Toad -> Nail in the head (both posts)
Anyone of you had ever negotiate with an Arab? Anyone of you ever bought anything on a zoco? It's a cultural matter. Their concept of honesty and truthfulness is different than ours. We are not comparing apples to apples. Their final goal is throwing jews to the sea. They've stated that from the very moment Israel was created, and I have no doubt it remains the same. And even if they swear over the Coran that they have changed, and they would tolerate an Israel state in the middle east, I won't believe them. This would be a concession towards their final goal. Go negotiate with an Arab. No. I don't like them. In general, and saving for whatever exception I'm sure there is, I don't trust them. A single bit.
At the end, the question is wether Israel state has the right to exist, or not. If your answer is "No it has not" then you have the easy answer. Just say Israel governor is a soulless murderer, say Palestinians have their right to fight for their land, put a convenient blind eye on (for instance) Arafat's past & present, and sit down and look how Palestine goes back to the useless nonimportant land it's been until british occupied it. If the answer is "Yes it has" then prepare for hard times. Because fact over fact over fact is proven that Israel has not been the aggressor. Indeed it's been tough, cruel, even inhuman, in their repression. They have been mostly ingenuous thinking they could civilize and rule Palestine after 1.973's occupation. But nothing compares (from my point of view) to arab nations willing to anihilate Israel as a State. From 1.947 on, they have relentlessly pursued that.
Takeda, your statements about killing people etc. are trivial. They mean nothing as they are obvious or utopic. On your first post, I think each and everyone of us misundertood you. You were talking about Irak & Iran, didn't you?
Cheers,
Pepe
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On the arab zoco stuff... blatant racism and a stupid comparison. So you got cheated buying a silly souvenir in a zoco, yeah the entire Muslim world should be ignored for that.
I was talking about Iraq and Israel, go ahead and dismiss any of the stated facts.
If you think Israel policy is right, then why not use it here in our own country?
Next time E.T.A. bombs anything we send the air force to level Gernika, blow up the H.Q. of the Ertzaina (Basque autonomous police for those out of Spain), send the Leopards to surround Arzallus (the silly and insulting leader of the moderate Nationalists ruling the Basque Country), detain every member of Batasuna (E.T.A.'s political wing), shoot a few of them at the spot and then just watch E.T.A support in the Basque Country rise to 50% or 60% from the current less than 10% it enjoys.
That is the wet dream of E.T.A. just as the current situation is the wet dream of Hamas sheiks. We refuse to give them that here, while Sharon and the nazionists pushing him swallow up the whole bait.
There are four struggles going on in the Middle East right now, and you have to choose which ones you support, any simplification just isnīt fair.
a) The Palestinian people and authority against the 25 year Israeli occupation. I support that
b) The Islamic fundamentalists seeking the destruction of Israel. I donīt support that
c) Israel defending their internationally agreed borders and execution of POLICE and LEGAL actions against terrorism within their borders. I support that
d) Israel seeking to boot palestinians out of their lands by stablishing settlements and out of intimidation, to form Greater Israel. I donīt support that
So Hamas diddlyheads and the nazionists piggyback on the justified objectives of both Palestinians and Israelis, and those of you with too many prejudices fail to disect the situation and then tend to propose too simple solutions.
[Edited because of poor english writing]
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The US is at war with anyone who feeds, funds or keeps company with terrorist . This is why (if you haven't yet noticed), the white house considers Arafat an enemy . And they're glad the Isrealis are handling him, because if they didn't we would have to . And that would of course cause an uproar if I may understate it .
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Takeda,
First, I've never said muslim. I said Arab. This is a world of difference, I'm sure you know. It's not racist either. It's a generalization, and an error in itself as it leaves aside exceptions to the rule. I point that as a cultural difference. Saying that we all people are equal is the most stupid thing I have to hear. We are all different, and we are immersed in different cultures. I think Arabs qualify themselves as a culture, in the cathegorical sense. And this culture is very well reflected in their towns and zocos. The way they organize commerce and commercial transactions, and social relationship. Maybe on your standards this reasons qualifiy as stupid and racist, not in mine. I won't debate here virtues and vices of Arab culture, I'm not so qualify to say that. But I do not trust them. That's all. I know It's a prejudice, and that it's blatantly not PC. But then I'm reaaally tired of PCness. Maybe because of "our" problem.
Second, I've never been cheated in a zoco, so far. My dayly work involves price negotiation, and one skill you develop on this job is sayin "no" when you are not convinced. So no hard feelings on this side against zocos.
Third, Basque question is, ultimately, related to the same question: Who has rights to call any land "their" land. And what tactics are valid to bring that point to light. And what ones are valid to deny it.
I have my own oppinions on what is right and wrong in "our" problem, but that is not the point of this thread, I think, and is wrong to use it to illustrate your argument. Different places, different people.
Finally, you stated clearly what you support and what you do not. Again, that's sterile. Nobody cares what you support and what you don't. Nobody cares, similarily, what I support or not. Your point is "I'd like xyz attack abc and I get rid of the problem" and you have to support your point. What people expect (or should expect) to read are your arguments in supporting your points. And which are they? Israelis invaded Palestina? There ends everything? So I try to invade your country, try to kill you and your family, you hit me back to my borders, and then further, and I have to give you back the land you took from me? Where do you throw the line of the first invassion? Who is the aggressor?
The one and only clear cut line in all this problem is terrorism. It is the foremost and principal problem. The precondition to start talking as humans. And you can extrapolate this to "our" problem too. Something that the very sophisticated brains like yours seem to fail to see. And something that even more sophisticated brains use to their benefit. And I'm sure that your free from prejudices mind and your ellaborated proposals to solve the problem (as your thread title suggest) will know how to interprete the latter.
Sincerely,
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Spare us the disneyland politics, we are talking about the real stuff here.
You should read the whole newspaper, and a few more of them, not just the headlines of the CartoonyLand Gazette of your hometown, you look like a silly drone spewing simplistic nonsense.
While the baseline of "Terror is Wrong" is really a good start and I agree with you, you should really dig a bit deeper, define terror, define "terrorism-feeding" and decide who you really want to blow up for it.
Would you blow up Irish neighbourhoods in NY for sendin $$$ to the I.R.A. all those years?
As much as I think they were wrong for doing that, I don't expect the US to declare war on them any time soon.
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Caligula how can a Jew have this type of hateful racist superior Nazi attitude? WTF did you guys take notes and study in the camps?
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Originally posted by takeda
Would you blow up Irish neighbourhoods in NY for sendin $$$ to the I.R.A. all those years
No we had them arested and siezed their assets, had they shot back then yes the authorities would've responded in kind . There were even a few organization in the CFC that were dealt with. What I said above isn't opinion, it's objective data . But you can keep providing us with invalid forms of argument if you like .
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Takeda,
You want Disneyland Politics? Here is a fine example of that:
Originally posted by takeda
That is, killing people is BAD.
Killing teens in a disco or a mall is BAD.
Killing teens throwing stones at tank is BAD.
Killing people while they drive their car around is BAD.
Killing even supposed criminals on the spot with an AG missile or a handgun without judge o jury is BAD.
Or you can take the thread title too...
Oh, and you don't know where is my hometown. But this do not surprise me, you seem to talk very loud about a lot of things you seem to ignore either.
Sincerely
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Pepe, for now on, i'll mark irony with tags so you can get it right, you seem to misread my posts a lot. The title of the thread might be convoluted and a bit trollish, but I think that my point comes through across the thread...
The cartoon land stuff was directed at our friend samm, your arguments were more articulated and to the point than his were.
About the killing people is BAD line taken out of the thread and thrown at me as cartoony, if you can find a better idea to start with, please provide it.
I donīt claim to know everything, it is just that out of interest and curiosity for this problem I got to read a lot about it and even mostly using the Israeli side as a source, I have come to think of it in this way.
The fact is that if we shouldn't justify the suicide bombers using the occupation as a pretext, we shouldn't either justify the occupation because of the suicide bombers.
The problem of separating terrorism from justified freedom fighting is in a big part a moral problem, if you step down from the moral high ground, you have already lost. Keeping the moral high ground doesn't assure you get rid of all problems, but it is many times the only thing separating you from the terrorists.
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Stop arguing lol. When push comes to shove the Isreali's will hand whoever is shoving them yet another slap-down and things will calm down again for awhile. The Palestinians "may" get thier state but they won't do it at the expense of Isreal, and not the U.N. or NATO or the E.U. or the U.S.A. or any other entity is ever going to "tell" Isreal what they will or won't do. Thats just how it is.
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Letīs hope they get a real state and not the bantustan they righfully refused to accept from Barak.
That won't happen if Sharon gets his way.
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BTW, last post, those who really want to understand, should have by now, back to lurker mode.
For those who have time and want some eye opening reads go here: http://www.seruv.org.il/linksEng.asp
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Originally posted by takeda
Letīs hope they get a real state and not the bantustan they righfully refused to accept from Barak.
Yes, it's quite clear that taking Barak's deal would have been foolish. I mean, look at the great strides that have been made since that last peace process was terminated.
So stupid to take whatever you can get peacefully and then continue to work towards a better agreement both in the UN and the world press.
The "human bomb" approach is doing so much more for the Palestinian drive to statehood. Looks like Israel is offering them a MUCH better deal now, eh?
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Caligula how can a Jew have this type of hateful racist superior Nazi attitude? WTF did you guys take notes and study in the camps?
Please quote me on any racist comments I might have made.
I still state,I would not mind any arab,muslim,christian or whatever kind of people in Israel only if they mellowed out,accepted that Israel rightfully exist and worked together to make Israel a better place for everybody.
The palestinians failed to do that,and after 54 years they`re still being a bunch of punks,instead of just dealing with it,and making themselves better.