Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on April 03, 2002, 09:57:49 AM
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Was Sweden "neutral" in WW2? Are they without sin to the point that they can throw stones? :) What about the Swiss and other "neutrals"?
Co-Opting Nazi Germany: Neutrality in Europe During World War II (http://www.adl.org/Braun/dim_14_1_neutrality_europe.html)
Read it all for objectivity, then make your comments. If there's errors, point them out.
Here's a slice to whet your appetite though. Remember this isn't the whole story.. it's just to get ya interested. :)
However, when it came to trade with the Nazi regime, the Swedes, for a period of time, accommodated themselves to the Reich to an even greater extent than the Swiss did.
The Swedish economy was, for a number of years, almost fully integrated into the Nazis' New Order; the country supplied Germany with high-grade iron ore (30 percent of that used by the German armaments industry), as well as ball bearings, foodstuffs, wood, and many other raw materials. In matters of finance, the Swedes cooperated with Germany by providing credit, which allowed the delivery of vast quantities of military equipment to the Wehrmacht.
Moreover, after the war, the Swedish central bank, the Riksbank, "examined gold it had received from the Nazis in payment for exports and returned about 13 tons that presumably had been stolen [from] Belgium and the Netherlands."24
The Swedes believed, at least for the first years of the war, that cooperation with Germany was necessary to preserve a precarious neutrality. But after 1943 the Swedish government, heeding Allied warnings about neutrals doing business with Germany, detached the country from the German "political and commercial web," and gradually established closer ties with the Allies.25
There is no doubt that for several years Sweden put its considerable economic resources at the disposal of the Reich; but its behavior in the latter stages of the war removed much of the stigma of collaboration.
Now where did I put that nomex flight suit? :)
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I posted about this a few weeks ago when some swede was posting holier then thow about Dresden...
When they are selling Iron for panther tanks for the gold from Jewish teeth they should take a good long look at them selves and how "neutral" they were.
All they were was a source of munitions material that could not be bombed by the allies. They were apperently more affraid of Adolf or more in line with his political agenda then they where with the allies.
Some counties are not as adept at looking at thier pasts as other though.
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And the main reason Germans conquered Norway was to ensure the deliveries of ore from Sweden to Germany via railroads during winter times. In summer times waterways were used.
Allied knew that Sweden was most important ore supplier to Germany and planned to capture main mines in Sweden. They only needed an excuse to land their feet on Swedish ground. Finland was the answer (or so they thought); allied offered material help to Finland who was fighting against Russians. All they needed was the official request from Mannerheim and they thought they would have permission to use Swedish ground to deliver equipments to Finland (and capture mines in Sweden). But their plan was scrapped due the Mannerheim who refused to ask help from allies. Churchill was amazed.
Regardless of numerous allies request to Sweden to pass their troops via their ground, Sweden refused every time. However, at the very same time Germans were allowed to use Swedish ground to supply their troops in northern norway, Germans had permanent authorization from Sweden.
Neutral Sweden? Yeah right! :rolleyes:
No offence swedish ppl :)
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Wonder how long 'swiss neutrality' woulda lasted in a europe controlled by the soviets after WWII?
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If Allied blood hadn't been shed for 6 years then I really doubt the veneer of neutrality (because that's all it was) would have been in tact.
I was under the impression Switzerland sold arms to both sides during the war.
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Originally posted by Pongo
When they are selling Iron for panther tanks for the gold from Jewish teeth they should take a good long look at them selves and how "neutral" they were.
All they were was a source of munitions material that could not be bombed by the allies.
*sigh* And they have such pretty girls....
- oldman
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I dunno Dowding, but the Swiss definitely shot down a couple of American B-17s.
-SW
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What, no Swedes for the rebuttal?
Never really thought about 1/3 of the armor in the Blitzkreig being made of fine Swedish iron ore....
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No idea on validity of the information, but I found it on the internet, so it MUST be true :)
Trading With The Enemy
This article reveals the trade between U.S. corporations and the Nazi regime during World War 2: how U.S. companies made big bucks by arming both the Allies and the Nazis.
They say that the winners write the history books.
New information on the business activities of certain banks and multinational companies during World War II makes one wonder who was fighting whom - and why?
Studying government documents obtained through the FOIA, Charles Higham entered a most alarming world. He discovered to his utter dismay and growing contempt the secret negotiations, trades, sales, and financial dealings that had gone on before, during and after the war between corporate leaders of the United States and the firms of Nazi Germany.
His book, "Trading With The Enemy", is filled with stories of secret trading and funding for anti-war sentiment, among other traitorous activities. In his preface, the author asks some extremely poignant questions which we should be asking ourselves in relation to the US-Soviet Union connection.
... if the average American knew about this?
What would have happened if millions of American and British people, struggling with coupons and lines at the gas stations, had learned that in 1942 Standard Oil of New Jersey managers shipped the enemy's fuel through neutral Switzerland and that the enemy was shipping Allied fuel? Suppose the public had discovered that the Chase Bank in Nazi-occupied Paris after Pearl Harbour was doing millions of dollars worth of business with the enemy with the full knowledge of the head office in Manhattan? Or that Ford trucks were being built for the German occupation troops in France? Or that Col. Sosthenes Behn, the head of the international American telephone conglomerate ITT, flew from New York to Madrid to Berne during the war to help improve Hitler's communications Systems and the robot bombs that devastated London? Or that ITT built the Focke-Wulfs that dropped bombs on British and American troops? Or that crucial ball-bearings were shipped to Nazi-associated customers in Latin America with the collusion of the vice chairman of the US War Production Board, in partnership with (high Nazi official) Goering's cousin in Philadelphia when American forces were desperately short of them? Or that such arrangements were known about in Washington and either sanctioned or deliberately ignored?
Some of it was `business as usual' and some transactions' purposes were traitorous, i.e., favouring Hitler and Nazism. An organisation that combined these motives was the BIS (Bank for International Settlements, created in 1930 of the world's central banks and inspired by Hjalmar Schacht, Nazi Minister of Economics who had powerful Wall Street connections.
BIS was created to retain channels of communication and collusion between the world's financial leaders during international conflicts. Its ostensible purpose was to provide the Allies with reparations to be paid by Germany for World War 1. However, it soon became an instrument to funnel money from America and Britain to Hitler's war machine. In May of 1944 during BIS's annual meeting, while young Americans were dying on the Italian beach-heads, the financial fraternity was deciding what to do with the $378 million in gold that the Nazi government had looted from the national banks of Austria, Holland, and Belgium.
Some other examples of traitorous activity by U.S. companies:
1) While General Motors (GM) was equipping the USAF in 1943, the German GM group was developing and assembling motors for the Messerschmidt 262, the first jet fighter in the world (GM went unpunished after the war; in fact, they were awarded a $33 million tax exemption on profits for its destroyed factories in Germany and Austria by the US government).
2) SKF (Swedish Enskilda Bank) was the colossal ball-bearings trust. Goering's cousin, Hugo von Rosen, and William Batt, Vice Chairman of the War Production Board, were directors of SKF in America throughout the war. Ball-bearings were essential -- tanks, trucks, planes, armored cars, U-boats, railroads, ITT's communication devices, guns, and bombsights would have been powerless without them. Therefore, ball-bearings were among the most powerful weapons of "the fraternity"`s (the name Higham continually uses to refer to the men who were overseeing the game of banking on war) sophisticated form of wartime neutrality. SKF not only controlled ball-bearings but, since its inception in 1907, it controlled iron ore mines, steel and blast furnaces, foundries, factories and plants in US, Germany, France, and Britain. The largest share of its production was allocated to Germany: 60 per cent.
The all-important Curtiss-Wright Aviation Corporation was unable for 15 months after Pearl Harbour to secure sufficient ball-bearings from SKF, and came close to closing down. Worn ball-bearings caused crashes that cost American lives. Large numbers of planes were grounded because of the lag in supply. Batt would do nothing; the inventories at the plant in Philadelphia were doctored to appear that only a few million bearings were ground out, when in fact much more had been produced. And sometimes Goering's cousin, von Rosen, would manufacture incomplete bearings for Americans that were useless. Investigations were being implemented, accountancy files and correspondence were burned, Watergates upon Watergates trying to ascertain who were the traitors in the War Production Board. In the end, Batt and von Rosen went without punishment. The secret promises with other members of the fraternity were kept. The SKF plants in Sweden and Germany would not be broken down or removed.
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Yer looking at it with different eyes.
If I was small, my military a pack of holiday excursionists in comparison to that of my neighbors, if I was SMACK in the middle of them and all the sudden the toejam hits the fan...
would you take sides? I wouldnt. I would do my darn best to stay out of it because that means staying alive. If I were to support the axis, that makes me a target to the allies. supporting the allies is unthinkable since im already surrounded by the axis.
If the axis told me they needed weapons or food and were willing to pay for it... welp, I cant say no, to do otherwise might have their army rolling over me, they really dont need an excuse to do so.
IMO, the Swiss were very smart in doing what they did.
Then the Swedes (gawd them namings become confusing!). Hostile russia bashing the fins and quite probably would roll over the swedish lands after they conquered the fins... the only powerful military capable of withstanding russia was germany, which also happens to be damn close to sweden. The allies were too far and were being soundly routed off the european mainland. The economy of europe is gone bonkers because of the war. Sweden is sitting on vital war material raw resources, its either sell them or be conquered by them. Tough choice.
What would you have done? Lemme ask you this, did sweden keep selling them the ore after the allied forces were liberating france?
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Meticulous research, including U.S. government records from the era, along with contemporaneous news stories from the New York Times and other papers is presented in the 1992 book entitled, “George Bush, The Unauthorized Biography” by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin, Published by The Executive Intelligence Review and located at http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm. The following is sourced entirely from Chapter II of this essential work. [Note: Although FTW does not always agree with conclusions reached by the Executive Intelligence Review, or its founder Lyndon La Rouche, we have never found a single flaw in any of their factual research. History is history, no matter who presents it. And this history is essential to understanding our era.]
George W. Bush’s grandfather, Prescott Bush, was the Managing Director of the investment bank Brown Brothers, Harriman from the 1920s through the 1940s. It was Brown Brothers, in conjunction with Averell Harriman, the Rockefeller family, Standard Oil, the DuPonts, the Morgans and the Fords who served as the principal funding arm in helping to finance Adolph Hitler’s rise to power starting in 1923. This included direct funding for the SS and SA channeled through a variety of German firms. Prescott Bush, through associations with the Hamburg-Amerika Steamship line, Nazi banker Fritz Thyssen (pronounced Tee-sen), Standard Oil of Germany, The German Steel Trust (founded by Dillon Read founder, Clarence Dillon), and I.G. Farben, used the Union Bank Corporation to funnel vast quantities of money to the Nazis and to manage their American interests. The profits from those investments came back to Bush allies on Wall Street. Thyssen is universally regarded as having been Hitler’s private banker and ultimate owner of the Union Bank Corporation.
Early support for Hitler came from Prescott Bush through the Hamburg-Amerika Steamship line -- also funded by Brown Bothers -- that funneled large sums of money and weapons to Hitler’s storm troopers in the 1920s.
According to Tarpley and Chaitkin, “In May 1933, just after the Hitler regime was consolidated, an agreement was reached in Berlin for the coordination of all Nazi commerce with the U.S.A. The Harriman International Company… was to head a syndicate of 150 firms and individuals, to conduct all exports from Hitler Germany to the United States.”
Furthermore, a 1942 U.S. government investigative report that surfaced during 1945 Senate hearings found that the Union Bank, with Prescott Bush on the board, was an “interlocking concern” with the German Steel Trust that had produced:
- 50.8% of Nazi Germany’s pig iron
- 41.4% of Nazi Germany’s universal plate
- 36% of Nazi Germany’s heavy plate
- 38.5% of Nazi Germany’s galvanized sheet
- 45.5% of Nazi Germany’s pipes and tubes
- 22.1% of Nazi Germany’s wire
- 35% of Nazi Germany’s explosives
The business relationships established by Bush in 1923 continued even after the war started until they became so offensive and overt as to warrant seizure by the U.S. government under the Trading with the Enemy Act in 1942.
In 1942, “Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the government took over Union Banking Corporation, in which Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.’s stock shares…
“… all of which shares are held for the benefit of… members of the Thyssen family, [and] is property of nationals… of a designated enemy country.”
“On October 28, the government issued orders seizing two Nazi front organizations run by the Bush-Harriman bank: the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation.”
“Nazi interests in the Silesian-American Corporation, long managed by Prescott Bush and his father in law George Herbert Walker, were seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act on Nov. 17, 1942…” These seizures of Bush businesses were reported in a number of American papers including The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.
Prescott Bush went on to become an influential Republican Senator from Connecticut who went on to be a regular golfing partner of President Dwight Eisenhower. His attorneys were the lawyers John Foster and Allen Dulles, the later became the CIA Director under Eisenhower.
Shell we continue this dick measuring contest ?
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i read it in a book , so it must be true
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Quote:
" [Note: Although FTW does not always agree with conclusions reached by the Executive Intelligence Review, or its founder Lyndon La Rouche, ......."
LOL!!! Fd-Ski, does the phrase "hook, line, and sinker" mean anything to you.??? Please, no more "facts". My sides are hurting........
Cabby
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How does it feel to know that your *heroic* Bush family was partially responsible for the deaths of millions of jews by Nazi Germany cabby?
You make me sick.
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yes ..in 1923 we ALL knew hitler was a bad man
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Originally posted by john9001
yes ..in 1923 we ALL knew hitler was a bad man
I did...the bastard still owes me five bucks! And do you think I'll ever see it??:mad:
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How does the US ship Oil to germany via the swiss in 1942??
By dirgible? How credible is such a statement? Look at a map.
Did Standard Oil have huge reserves of oil in Switzerland that it sold off?
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What would you have done? Lemme ask you this, did sweden keep selling them the ore after the allied forces were liberating france?
Nope.. but tell me this.. knowing what they did, (turned a blind eye to ideologies, showed no spine, and just sold out) when they did it and why, how is it the Swedes get to play this tune:
Target: Hiroshima Nagasaki
Dead/Missing: 70000-80000 35000-40000
Wounded: 70000 40000
Population Density: 35000 per sq mile 65000 per sq mile
Total Casualties: 140000-150000 75000-80000
Area Destroyed: 4.7 sq mile 1.8 sq mile
Attacking Platform: 1 B-29 1 B-29
And all so the stupid morons could test their new toy...
Sure, one small reason was to save US soldiers lives but main reason was testing purpose
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
Location: SWEDEN
III/JG5 Eismeer
Livestock Liberation Front
Various others from Finland, Germany, France have chimed in with similar noises.
Yah know, in 1940, England, alone; was faced with the same choice the Swedes had. Seems they came to a different conclusion; and fought. The Swedes could have.. but they didn't.
So, Tac; I'd say BY your reasoning, England should have caved, too. But they didn't. I think the entire planet owes Winston and England a big vote of thanks. Don't you?
And Sweden, with its smug sanctimonius nazi cheerleader citizenry gets no 'attaboy' points from me for 'doing the right thing'. 'Neutrality' whilst sitting in the middle of a World War is a close cousin to 'social cowardice' in my book.
YOU CANNOT ENSLAVE A FREE MAN. THE MOST YOU CAN DO IS KILL HIM.[/I]
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...and that's the point... start throwing stones around glass houses, everyone's windows get broken, eh?
Even Swedish windows.
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well, their problem was that they didn't have a nice big body of water to hid behind... :)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yah know, in 1940, England, alone; was faced with the same choice the Swedes had.
Nit picking here, but I'm getting tired of seeing this. England was not alone.
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Originally posted by fd ski
well, their problem was that they didn't have a nice big body of water to hid behind... :)
whatever. as long as they dont forget that they prostituted themselves to the nazi war effort and keep thier mouths shut about how the Allies fought the war that ended thier prostitution for them.
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I guess those guys on Omaha beach were just confused. And hidding on the wrong side of the pond.
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Ski, Neither did the Poles or the French, even the fediddlein Finns... but at least they fought.
Thrawn, England stood alone till Dec 8th 1941.
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Commonwealth, Hang.. ya know, Canada, Australia, NZ and the others? South Africa? Ya know?
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(i know.. and all of 'em Englanders by allegieance and temperment.. the 'United Kingdom', yah know?? ;))
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Originally posted by Hangtime
(i know.. and all of 'em Englanders by allegieance and temperment.. the 'United Kingdom', yah know?? ;))
and for those who don't know;) Canada received control over her own foreign relations at the signing of the Treaty of Westminister in (I believe) 1936. And the commonwealth isn't a mutual defence pact.:cool:
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Yup it's like that other guy in that other thread who thanked France and Japan and whoever else for support after 9/11... continuing to overlook that as he writes that the Canadian military is on the ground in Afghanistan shootin' into caves alongside the US (don't see any French or Japanese and whoever else there with them). Shrug....
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And for yet further hijacking of the thread. So far this century: WW1 (right from the start.), WW2 (one day after Britain), Korea, every UN Peace Keeping operation...ever, NATO duties, NATO operations in Bosnia, Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm, Current Operations in Afghanistan.
:cool:
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Originally posted by Nash
Yup it's like that other guy in that other thread who thanked France and Japan and whoever else for support after 9/11... continuing to overlook that as he writes that the Canadian military is on the ground in Afghanistan shootin' into caves alongside the US (don't see any French or Japanese and whoever else there with them). Shrug....
That's cause media here doesn't tell you any of this stuff.
Polish troops are on the ground in Afganistan. Bet you didn't know that :)
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Ugh... no I didn't. Just found this "Polish contingent consists of 275 soldiers - chemists, biologists, logistists, sappers and rangers of special unit GROM."
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Yep, Thrawn.. it's why we let you guys spend the winter in Florida. ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
Yep, Thrawn.. it's why we let you guys spend the winter in Florida. ;)
LMAO!!:D
Had a caller at my tech support job the other day, from Florida.
"Where is the help desk located anyway", he asked.
"We're located in Ottawa, Canada."
"Heheh, what's the weather like?"
"Well, we just got a whole bunch more snow."
Starts laughing, "It's 85 degrees here!"
"Wow, that must be tough" :mad:
;)
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Forgot to say "thanks".
Some of the stuff you've written makes me wish I was that eloquent and to the point.
If I ever meet ya at a con, drinks are on me, your favorite flavor.
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"Yah know, in 1940, England, alone; was faced with the same choice the Swedes had. Seems they came to a different conclusion; and fought. The Swedes could have.. but they didn't.
So, Tac; I'd say BY your reasoning, England should have caved, too. But they didn't. I think the entire planet owes Winston and England a big vote of thanks. Don't you? "
Apples and Oranges.
Sweden had nowhere near the military power, navy and air force that the british had at that time. Nor were they one of the victors of WW1 that imposed the harsh surrender terms on Germany (which hitler seemed to have a personal vendetta against). Nor were they threatened by 2 wars going on around them (finland vs russia, germany vs eastern europe).
That the brits deserve thanks for fighting on? SURE. big for that. Surrender was never an option for the british isles in the first place anyway. It was hitler's incompetence that saved the british in almost all the aspects that wouldve allowed the germans to invade britain. Switching bombers from plastering the RAF to plastering cities (saving the RAF!), losing a great deal of ships in the baltic (and he had to cancel Op. Sea Lion because he didnt have any ships left after that!), starting the Russian Front, etc.
Sweden had the option of "caving in" instead of fighting a battle they were sure to lose. And by doing so they survived. Morality goes out the window when thats at stake. Not that Sweden was aware of all the crap the nazi's were up to though.
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I don't know. I've read that Operation Sealion was never really ment to happen. That they wanted to use the threat of it for leverage, in getting the UK to surrender.
"only as a means of exerting political and military pressure on England" - General Wilhelm Keitel - Chief of Staff of the Oberkommando der Wehrmarcht.
Apparently, Hilter might have had Sealion as more of a planning option, then as an actual operation he wanted to go ahead with. The Wehrmarcht itself was no where near ready for a campaign of that sort, let alone the having the ships to do it.
Anyway, apparently it's up for debate.
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"Anyway, apparently it's up for debate."
Aye it is. From what I know, the loss of so many destroyers and transports in the baltic seriously screwed any kind of seaborne invasion of england. The kriegsmarine was woefully underpowered and by losing all those ships it just couldnt mount any kind of invasion. Thats why sea lion was called off completely its believed. Some say it was the weather or the increased RAF resistance.. maybe it was all 3 combined.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I dunno Dowding, but the Swiss definitely shot down a couple of American B-17s.
-SW
yep and some bf110 109 190 He111 etc :)
Originally posted by Nash
Yup it's like that other guy in that other thread who thanked France and Japan and whoever else for support after 9/11... continuing to overlook that as he writes that the Canadian military is on the ground in Afghanistan shootin' into caves alongside the US (don't see any French or Japanese and whoever else there with them). Shrug....
Ya need better glasses.
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Sweden Rulez!
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,,,,,yup just ask 7000 jewes,who got ferried to Sweden in
ONE NIGHT ,in danish fishingboats.
Dawvgrid at home
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Almost 80000 Finnish childrens were transported to Sweden to be safe from the war.
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Dawvgrid: Ever wonder how many Jews rolled out of Germany and into death camps on railroad car wheels and rails made from fine Swedish iron ore?
Staga: Presumably those children were transported in a means that did not interfere with the free flow of German troops and war materials to and from Germany.
See... anyone can do what you guys do to the US. It's not too tough to be critical.
As I said, the point is NOBODY, NO NATION IS PERFECT.
I have nothing at all against the Swedes; they've done pretty good things, all things considered. But they have their "dark moments" like any other country. Certainly enough that they should be wise enough not to throw stones. ;)
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Well Toad,, I wasn`t throwing stones at the US,at least not in this thread ;)
Anyone said JEHOVA? >John cleese voice<;)
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Hindsight is 20-20 but it can also be perverted like a circus mirror. It's tiresome always hearing from people who come from nations which really do squat in terms of making the world a better place. It's always easy to criticize, but keep in mind the actual intentions of what you critique. It's never so easy as step A leads to result B. I'm certain the USA leads the world in terms of contributions to foreign aid. Heck, I certainly could use some of those taxes for personal goods (like a Cougar joystick) instead of those taxes going to some starving person who will later only lash out against the USA as his scapegoat for his country's poor economic situation while he supports some numnutt military dictator who runs the country into the ground. It seems if we can't solve other people's problems, we are at fault. However, on the world arena, we try more than anyone! But as everyone knows, you can never please everyone. We do carry a big stick (and I personally think we do not use it enough), but we also carry a HUGE medical bag to try to assist those more unfortunate than us. Just name any other "non-Western" country you'd prefer to be in our place and I guarantee you the world would be an oozing cist.
Yeah, Finland and Sweden sure are making the world a better place. Right!
Interesting about this ore-trade topic. They might not have had a choice in the matter; though, they might have too. It's easy to critique when looking back (as Toad said...I think it was him.) But it made me think of how the USA stopped important trade with Japan when Japan would not cease in its conquest of China. It supposedly forced an attack upon our nation too. I guess our supporting Israel from annihilation (not running their lives for them, supporting them) warranted an attack on the WTC and possibly dirty-bombs in our cities in the near future. Step off! We let you live out of our own goodness... again, name another country you'd want with our military and economic might.
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Puke!
Give 'em whut fer, son. My fingers are tired. ;)
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name another country you'd want with our military and economic might.
Sweden!
GOD BLESS SWEDEN!