Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Ripsnort on April 03, 2002, 11:09:38 AM
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Posted in the HTH forum :
vorticon
Junior Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 24
"superpug your remark about good american planes winning you the war HA HA HA HA HA a good pilot in a a6m could whoop your american planes bellybutton with a good pilot in it. your little american planes spin out and die when they start turning faster than 1 degree per minnute meanwhile the hurri 2c (my plane) can turn very quickly and is very whell armed (not a single mg on it all cannons) you guys only won your war because you decided to take a superfortress (why dont they have those in this game) and vapourised hiroshima. and whoever was complaining about getting on someones tale and they just dive and get away isnt that the point there not going to sit there and let you line up and blast em. you gotta learn how to aproach them and when they dive and then continue going in the same direction you just keep on flying instead of following them and when the straiten yout you dive on there bellybutton and blast them. actually i think the hurri 2c is becoming a more "dweebish" plane than the spits because it can turn and then you just hit em twice and down they go. thanks to the hurri 2c ive been getting over 5 kills a day most of wich are all one after another (i love it when people gat all lined up and i can get behind em aand blast them one after another with ease as they have weakend each other in there fighting)
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vort4 proud member of the flying ducks now disbanded due to lack of funds (hasnt registered cant register
due to the fact im just a kid so i cant pay cause i cant have a credit card)
IP: Logged
04-02-2002 11:13 AM
sorry for babbling on and on and on i get a bit carried away. anyway all the posts after the second page are completly off topic and hitler could have won the war if he had destroyed england first (send all his bombers and bomb out london then send his fleet of ships to invade) but no he has to be a typical evil geneus and do something totally stupid. whoops there i go again.
So, I hope that most youths don't think this way..:eek:
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
So, I hope that most youths don't think this way..:eek:
They need constant reminding. I'm still amazed to hear that "Hitler could have won if he'd invaded England" line, though. Betcha he also thinks that Hitler would have won the war if he'd produced the Me-262 as a fighter and not a bomber!
Now that I think of it, though....
...a lot of Southerners talk the same way about the Civil War.....
- oldman
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the worlds full of idiots.Best you can do is try not to BE one :D
this guy sounds real young and i doubt hes had proper history lessons yet.Hell it took me years to discover the truth about the war and im STILL learning new stuff all the time.Cant blamea wet behind the ears youngster for getting the wrong impression.When we are young we pick up our info mostly from movies!! This is why its SO wrong to portray total nonsense on them.Its a poerfull medium and should be recognised as such.
typical recent examples?
braveheart
U571
Pearl harbour
William wallace the peacefull man embittered by the death of this love fighting the english oppressors.Finally dieing the true hero with a cry of Freedom!!. Well im half english half scottish and unfortunately this film although a great movie is absolutely full of roadkill.Ask a 10 year old about that part of history? he'll almost recount the script word for word instead of reading the actual history.He he the real william wallace was a warrior and as much a murderer and killer as the English he fought.
U571. The depiction of the brave american crew who capture the enigma allowing the allies to crack the codes and win the war!.
Again the real story is fantastic and makes for a great movie.But its total BS again.A British destroyer captured it, the codes were broken at bletchly park in the UK and shared with the US.You guys broke the Japanese codes and should have made a damn film about that.Can you imagine if the English made a movie saying we cracked that and saved your tulips from them? again ask a kid who found the enigma machine and he recounts it as the film did.Only later as he learns the real event will he change his veiws.
Pearl harbour? well if ever there was a film that diminished the real bravery of those men and turned what was one of the most important events of the twentieth century into a farce of nonsense ive never seen it! Those fights in the aircrafts! Still again Fantastic effects but ruined by the drivel and crap in the story told.This was history and any change to it is like spitting on the graves of those brave men who died in it.
As you can see i get really worke up on this sort of thing and the reason? well just read what that kid said.It takes years of education and an open mind(hopefully) to really undo what this sort of thing portrays.
Hey its not the end of the world and yes this is meant to be oure entertainment but why use the real events at all? why? because the REAL events fascinate people and draws in the BUCKS.
I say make the movie truthfull however painfull.The drama of the real events are far more 'entertaining' and facinating than some fairy tale.
now saving private ryan, although 'based' on a true event I think handled the events really well.We saw the horror of the landings.We felt the emotion of the soldiers.Saw weaknesses, bitterness.Although not 'realistic' in many places it at least attempted and i think to a good extent succeeded to impart some real feelings and emotions.It never tried to put tom hanks into anyhing approaching the rediculous hero type we saw in pearl harbour.
Das boot again, a fantastic film because it showed how desperate the situation really was.Showed that luck played its role and showed again the waste of war.another great movie.
compare this to U571 lol.
its a shame we have such nonsense in movies.I can understand weaving a fairy tale love affair into a film based around real events.but not a fairy tale based around lies and well, almost propaganda and sometimes biggotted propaganda in bravehearts case.
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What I find disheartning is the way most european countries and japan teach ww2 history in their schools.
its pitiful. we get no respect at all for what we did during and after.. our motives are smeared, our efforts after the war ignored. truly pitiful. no wonder lil kids grow up over there thinking we're all toejamheads.
*sigh*
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Originally posted by Hangtime
What I find disheartning is the way most european countries and japan teach ww2 history in their schools.
its pitiful. we get no respect at all for what we did during and after.. our motives are smeared, our efforts after the war ignored. truly pitiful. no wonder lil kids grow up over there thinking we're all toejamheads.
*sigh*
We do the same thing to the Russians. I think the real trick is to try not to buy into our own Jingoism... that goes for ALL nations, not just a select few.
-Sikboy
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Oh and about the whole Hitler thing wanting the 262 to be a bomber instead of a fighter was not the primary reason for it to be delayed it's because of the unreliable engine caught fire ussually thus delaying it's introduction at say June of '44.
Even then when they worked out the bugs you couldn't really ram the throttle like piston engines fighters because they either seized or caught fire thus the really slow spool up in AH.
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Hangtime i took history in senior school and the Americans are given their dues mate!
Its a very accepted point that without America the Germans would have beaten us eventually even after the battle of britain.
It was just that, a battle not the war.
Then again America is an ally wheresas countries nearer the russians were taughtit was them that stopped the Germans, and for them its absolutely true.
Im curious as to the smeared motives bit. what are you refering to?
I think you guys are overly sensitive to the european type of criticism.We tend to talk about what you guys(and ours) did wrong rather than right.BUT dont be distracted by it.We remember what was done FOR us.And we remember the sacrifice and appreciate it even up to the newest generations.You only have to see the memorials and museums to see that.
America seems to need everyone to be their friend and to keep on telling them how good they are.well yes you are good on the whole but like every country you have your faults
p.s.(If I may say one thing you guys are well known for this trigger happy behaviour.Many incidents in WW2. It crops up quite frequently.even in desert strom your guys killed more of my countrymen than the enmey did.This is no small matter to a nation as a whole.We all realise its war and things happen, and we dont blame.but it does grate the teeth thinking about it.They were the best of our nations people and were killed by a failure in communication and tendancy to fire first ask questions later.When i saw the film of the incident with the actual voice recording during the attack the commanders 'take em out' statement spoken like john wayne is not a good thing.)
But look,we still like ya'all :D dont dispair mate.(just flick the safety on a bit more :))
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"U571. The depiction of the brave american crew who capture the enigma allowing the allies to crack the codes and win the war!.
Again the real story is fantastic and makes for a great movie.But its total BS again.A British destroyer captured it, the codes were broken at bletchly park in the UK and shared with the US.You guys broke the Japanese codes and should have made a damn film"
I agree but,
Atleast they put the disclamer at the end of the film that said the Brits did it first and more often then the Americans. The Americans did capture their own enigma machine btw, just not the first one.
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If I recall.... didn't U571 also list all the missions which captured enigma machines at the end of the movie? Anyhow, if you get your history from the movies, be prepared to be wrong a lot.
(not anyone in particular, just in general)
-Sikboy
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Whos gonna make a movie about the codes the Germans broke that enabled them to intercept the Ploesti raid?
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Originally posted by fdiron
Whos gonna make a movie about the codes the Germans broke that enabled them to intercept the Ploesti raid?
I don't know, who's going to make a movie about the brave crew of a German submarine during the war in the Atlantic?
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0767802470.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by hazed-
the worlds full of idiots.Best you can do is try not to BE one :D
this guy sounds real young and i doubt hes had proper history lessons yet.Hell it took me years to discover the truth about the war and im STILL learning new stuff all the time.Cant blamea wet behind the ears youngster for getting the wrong impression.When we are young we pick up our info mostly from movies!! This is why its SO wrong to portray total nonsense on them.Its a poerfull medium and should be recognised as such.
typical recent examples?
braveheart
U571
Pearl harbour
William wallace the peacefull man embittered by the death of this love fighting the english oppressors.Finally dieing the true hero with a cry of Freedom!!. Well im half english half scottish and unfortunately this film although a great movie is absolutely full of roadkill.Ask a 10 year old about that part of history? he'll almost recount the script word for word instead of reading the actual history.He he the real william wallace was a warrior and as much a murderer and killer as the English he fought.
U571. The depiction of the brave american crew who capture the enigma allowing the allies to crack the codes and win the war!.
Again the real story is fantastic and makes for a great movie.But its total BS again.A British destroyer captured it, the codes were broken at bletchly park in the UK and shared with the US.You guys broke the Japanese codes and should have made a damn film about that.Can you imagine if the English made a movie saying we cracked that and saved your tulips from them? again ask a kid who found the enigma machine and he recounts it as the film did.Only later as he learns the real event will he change his veiws.
Pearl harbour? well if ever there was a film that diminished the real bravery of those men and turned what was one of the most important events of the twentieth century into a farce of nonsense ive never seen it! Those fights in the aircrafts! Still again Fantastic effects but ruined by the drivel and crap in the story told.This was history and any change to it is like spitting on the graves of those brave men who died in it.
As you can see i get really worke up on this sort of thing and the reason? well just read what that kid said.It takes years of education and an open mind(hopefully) to really undo what this sort of thing portrays.
Hey its not the end of the world and yes this is meant to be oure entertainment but why use the real events at all? why? because the REAL events fascinate people and draws in the BUCKS.
I say make the movie truthfull however painfull.The drama of the real events are far more 'entertaining' and facinating than some fairy tale.
now saving private ryan, although 'based' on a true event I think handled the events really well.We saw the horror of the landings.We felt the emotion of the soldiers.Saw weaknesses, bitterness.Although not 'realistic' in many places it at least attempted and i think to a good extent succeeded to impart some real feelings and emotions.It never tried to put tom hanks into anyhing approaching the rediculous hero type we saw in pearl harbour.
Das boot again, a fantastic film because it showed how desperate the situation really was.Showed that luck played its role and showed again the waste of war.another great movie.
compare this to U571 lol.
its a shame we have such nonsense in movies.I can understand weaving a fairy tale love affair into a film based around real events.but not a fairy tale based around lies and well, almost propaganda and sometimes biggotted propaganda in bravehearts case.
Right on, Hazed.
Even in such a great film like "Saving Private Ryan", they had to have that line that Ryan says at the end "Look, P-51's..tank busters, sir". Ugh! ;)
I think the best war movie of all time based soley on historical accuracy is probably "Tora, Tora, Tora!"
But my vote for best all-around war film for realism still goes to "Das Boot".
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If the P51 was carrying 500 or 1000 pound bombs I would call it a tank-buster too! In fact, I know of several missions flown in support of the D-day landings by P51s where German tanks were attacked and destroyed.
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you know what pisses me off is when people start complaining about me and my veiws i have a right to feel whatever i want about the war. i havent seen braveheart or pearl harbour or anything like that my entire veiws on this have come completly from books i form my own opinions and if they dont agree with the opinions and ideas that some adults have ground into there minds that thats just tough hitler made alot of mistakes in the war and america would never have entered the war if the japs hadnt been so stupid as to attack pearl harbour. so just stop it. anyway i get carried away in the heat of the moment sometime especially when someone makes a comment that is really really biased to america you americans g oaround like the kings of the world half the time they forget that they wernet the only ones to suffer in ww2 and ww1. how many of you know about the indian corps huh not that many i can tell. trust me i know about them they were also know as "the forgotten army" mostly because they are completly ignored half the time. they did push the japs out of india most american kids and a few adults thimk they were the only ones who fought the japs HA. what about the australians they fought them to. and just what is the truth about the war huh that the americans won the war single handedly no that seems to be the ideas of the americans but us canadians know better. and i never saw saving private ryan either my dad was born 4 years after the war and he doesn want me watching CRAP about hte war like that.
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"you americans"??
So based on the ignorant jibberish you're posting, I could say "all canadians don't know a lick of history?"
Who were the red tails?
-SW
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Originally posted by vorticon
you know what pisses me off is when people start complaining about me and my veiws i have a right to feel whatever i want about the war.
And we have a right to make fun of you for it.
-Sikboy
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Good day RIPSNORt..i dint read the rest o fthis stuff...BUT a ZERO was way out classed by the p-38's (note first models)....Only thing a zero could do was out turn at lo speeds..(Thomas McQuire..Dick Bong would argue that tho) ,,using combat flaps and adjusting prop angles and engine speed was known to turn slow with zero....Just got done reading "FORK TAILED DEVIL"..excellent book.....so we not only had numbers ,,but we did have a FEW SUPERIOR planes,,,,,,,,,
BiGB>>>>>>>>>>BGBMAW<<<<1st Marine Air WIng>>>>:)
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
Good day RIPSNORt..i dint read the rest o fthis stuff...BUT a ZERO was way out classed by the p-38's (note first models)....Only thing a zero could do was out turn at lo speeds..(Thomas McQuire..Dick Bong would argue that tho) ,,using combat flaps and adjusting prop angles and engine speed was known to turn slow with zero....Just got done reading "FORK TAILED DEVIL"..excellent book.....so we not only had numbers ,,but we did have a FEW SUPERIOR planes,,,,,,,,,
BiGB>>>>>>>>>>BGBMAW<<<<1st Marine Air WIng>>>>:)
Be careful with Caidin's work. He tended not to verify his facts. Arthur W. Heiden, who wrote the letter that motivated Caidin to write FTD, and who actually wrote most of the last chapter, is a friend of mine. The best stuff in FTD is gleaned from the pilots. That story about the P-38 returning to base with a dead pilot, and breaking up over the field, is a highly fictionalized version of the truth. Bob Johnson told me that he found Caidin was constantly trying to sensationalize Johnson's story and he (Johnson) had several heated arguments with Caidin when he found several blatant exaggerations in the first drafts of the manuscript. Caidin was a book factory, like Ambrose is today. In that respect, Caidin did not take time to confirm dubious facts in order to meet deadlines. Read his stuff with care.
My regards,
Widewing
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Yes very strange about the ghost 38..HO w could that happen???He got shot in melay..then he was so trimmed well that he grabbed to 30k,,and drifted back to base????Being the last paragragh in the book..it spooked me as i wen tto sleep..lolol
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Interesting bit about the "Ghost 38"
I've never read "Forked Tail Devi", but I read a legend very similar in a book called "Wings of Mystery." It was a pretty sensational book about things like the Avengers in the Bermuda Triangle, the Lady Be Good, Amelia Earhart ect. There is one story about a P-40 that flew into China. Allied planes went up to check it out, and were unable to force the plane to change course, so they opened fire on it. Shot it up good, but it still managed to ditch. When ground pounders got to the wreak it was piloted by a freakin skelleton
Pretty cool story, but I just filed it under "S" for scary but doubtfull. :)
-Sikboy
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i may be young...but i respect what history i know...i dont try to exxagerate and make up 'what ifs' about wars......some ppl dont know what they are talking about and then make us angry or mess with the reputation or honor of past and fallen comrades....my jist of this...speak of what you know....
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I'm glad that "Operation Olympic" did not take place. I was able to spend 25 years with my grandfather who fought on Guam, Okinawa and the Occupation of China (he hated this worse than Oki)[he passed in 1998], in the U.S.M.C.. His divisions orders were to land at Yokohama Bay. I never would have known him and this world would be DRASTICALLY different from the way it is today if "Operation Olympic" would have happened. Japan would have suffered even more than it did, and the casualties on all sides would have been horrific. I think a million total (like most historians say) is not even close to the number of lives lost.
I know that first sentence sounds harsh but it shouldn't be taken that way. When people like Vorticon bring up the A-Bomb incidents, they forget an even WORSE tragedy brought about on Japan. The Tokyo Fire Raids that killed more (around 1 million) civilians due to high winds carrying flames from building to building. I'm always amazed at the dumbfounded faces of the "Anti-A-Bomb" people. They shut up after they hear that. They only want to look at one side of the story. The total number of radioactive related deaths is not close to One million.
Americans didn't shove hoses down Japanese throats, fill the captured stomachs with water and stomp on them like the japanese did. Americans didn't force POW's to work in and help build Japanese aircraft, the japanese did. American's didn't perform six Vivisection's (live autopsy, without anesthesia) in 1945, after a B-29 crashed and the prisoners were full coherent as whole lungs were removed, pieces of liver were removed, one doctor even stopped a heart with his hand, but the Japanese did.
I miss you grandpa, Semper Fi, Do or Die!
Jay
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Hazed,
I'm with you 100% on the joke of U-571. Das Boot is one of the best WWII movies out there. Good call, man.
Jay
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Don't ya just hate it when film makers from another country play fast and loose with history?
Title: Breaking the Sound Barrier (1952 - British)
Directed by: David Lean
Starring: Nigel Patrick, Ralph Richardson, Ann Todd
Reviewed by: "Rambo"
A fictionalized account of the race to break the sound barrier in a manned aircraft. The sexism of an earlier age stands out as unintentionally funny in this quintessential 'right-stuff' film where devil-may-care, ex-RAF test pilots do what they must while their wives and sweethearts struggle to understand the meaning of it all. Nevertheless, the romance of aviation is as well represented here as in any other work. In a nice touch, Director Lean (best known for his epics 'the Bridge over the River Kwai' and 'Lawrence of Arabia') gives the vintage jet aircraft used in the production credits as if they had been part of the crew.
For an interesting and humorous aside, see 'The Right Stuff' by Tom Wolfe for the story of how 'Chuck' Yeager, the pilot who actually broke the sound barrier, had to contend with the legends established by this film.
;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
For an interesting and humorous aside, see 'The Right Stuff' by Tom Wolfe for the story of how 'Chuck' Yeager, the pilot who actually broke the sound barrier, had to contend with the legends established by this film.
Except Chuck Yeager was the 2nd person to break sound barrier :)
And if some claims about German pilot/s breaking sound barrier, maybe 3rd. Those claims are unproven and pretty impossible to prove anymore though.
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If you are refering to the claims of the test pilots in the F-86, you may be correct.
But my point was that historical movies have been around for a long time, have come from many countries, and have usually been wrong.
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It isn't just recent films that are historically incorrect. One film that jumps to mind is the film 'Cromwell'. It appears to tell the story of Oliver Cromwell and his New Model Army and the English Civil War against the Royalists.
For starters Oliver Cromwell never had no New Model Army. It was Fairfax, and it also showed Cromwell attending battles he never even attended! Fairfax was more so the real leader of the Roundheads but because he didn't want to sign the death warrant for King Charles, Cromwell nipped in and signed the warrant and somehow took all the glory from all the senior Roundheads.
Anyway, yes, Das Boot is a fantastic film! Brilliant!
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Vorticon, al any of us can do is read as much as we can about the events that took place, check for consistency/reality, and draw our own conclusions. Even for those amid the fighting at the time this is true, as no one person would be privy to all the facts about any given situation of much conseqience.
There's a lot of dross about, both in books and in films; EVERY source caries with it the baggage of its creator, their biases, their understanding, their commitment to truth, their intent in producing their work... even having read a great many books about the second World War over more than two decades, I am still uncovering facets new to me.
With regard to a possible invasion of England by Germany, the problems were fourfold:
1. Lack of adequate transport shipping
2. Lack of an adequate strategic bomber
3. Lack of an adequate long-range fighter
4. A disorganised economy and confused leadership that wasted resources left right and centre.
The German fleet could not have withstood the Royal Navy in a large scale encounter without air supremacy. The Luftwaffe did not have that air supremacy for a number of reasons. The one most ofte quoted was the fatal mistake of callng off the attacks on forward fighter airfields in England to attack London instead, but there were other factors.
If the German economy had been properly mobilised for war under a leadership that was more unified an coherent inpurpose, the LW would have had more planes and crew to man them, and the English may have lost the BoB anyway.
If Hitler and others in the hierarchy hadnt been so sure that all they needed was a TACTICAL air force to support the German army, then perhaps the 109 would have been equipped with drop tanks earlier, and other long-range fighter types than the Bf110 would have been developed. Had the Ju89 and Do19 been developed rather than cancelled, Germany would have had a first class 4-engined bomber force well before the UK and USA (an experimental derivative of the Ju89, the Ju390, did in fact fly with a few KM of New York from France during the course of the war).
The Japanese were already suffering from trade sanctions that were crippling their ability to fight when they attacked Pearl Harbour. They had ben fighting a war in China for several years already, don't forget. From their viewpoint, WW2 didnt start at Pearl Harbour, it started much earlier. Japan needed to obtan fresh resources in order to keep its economy going, and militarily it saw the way to do that was by grabbing off large chunks of SE Asia and Indonesia.
That would necessarily involve attacking the overseas possesions of several Eurpean countries, however, and almost inevitably the USA would get drawn into the conflct. So Pearl Harbour was, militarily, a sensible attempt to strike such a devastating blow against the US fleet that the USA might be persuaded to stay out of any further fighting. The Japanese were unlucky in that the US carrier fleet wasnt there when they attacked, and in that they misjudged the charatcer of America as a state, expecting them to be much more wary of going to war than they were.
Had the Japanese not attacked Pearl Harbour, the Amercans might have been slower to get nvolved in the war, but almost inevitaly WOULD have been involved anyway. Thus Pearl harbour was a calculated risk that went astray, not stupidity, m'dear.
An interesting point is to consider whether, if Germany had succeeded in invading mainand Birtain, Russia would have still been able to fight off the Germans anyway. Given the size of the country and its natural resources, I rather think they would have. They might have take a year or two longer to do it, but I think 1946 would have seen the Red Army in Berlin anyway.
Mind you, to some extent that depends on what would have happened in North Africa and the Middle and Far East. Would the US have stepped in to help Britis/Empire forces defend Egypt and use Egypt as a base to conduct raids against Axis-held Europe? Would the Western Alies have been invading Italy as the Russians started pushing the Germans back into Poland and the Balkan States, leaving Britain the last Axis-held country to be liberated?
Anyway, that you're keen on history is good, Vorticon, just try to be a little more thoughtful in your postings and you ont get laughed at. With regard to your comments about aircraft, the thing to bear in mind is that the MA in AH bears very little resemblance to actual WW2 conditions. WW2 pilots couldnt grab whatever plane they liked whe they liked, and their utility was governed by hard physics, not the limitations of tryong to program a virtual reality. WW2 pilots flew as if their lives depended on it - because they DID depend on it. Not many people fly like that in the MA!
Good luck with both your flying in AH and your studies of history!
!
Esme
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Vorticon,
<>
You are correct that you have every right to feel whatever it is you feel about the war. However, facts are facts and when you wish to believe in something based in ignorance sans research, then you don't do yourself any favors (and you look like a complete fool at least in my eyes.) Also be aware that we judge you based on those things we know about you which basically consists entirely of your postings on this BBS. It's your right to go around thinking like an imbecile, but don't fault us for judging you when you make your imbecility public.
Your spelling is atrocious and so I'm guessing you are still in the elementary grades. Fourth of fifth? One thing you have going for you is that you are active on these boards which is a great place to learn opinions to make your own conclusions as well as just plain facts. Take care.
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finally got the chance to see Das Boot last weekend... (pc was broke lol)
Great flick! everything I had been told was true...
They did step away from realism briefly in places, but hey, not yer typical Hollywood trash +)
SKurj
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ok, some of our non-American friends please explain why you generalize us? " kings of the world" comments and such. why do you feel that its fine to assume how we "all" are but in turn would be offended if i was to do the same? no, i am not aiming this at all of you guys who are not American, i just am curious. maybe i just pay attention to the morons too much and just answered my own question. i personally enjoy the interaction with our friends from around the globe and appreciate your views even though i may not like them always.
:D
p.s. i dont disagree with the reviews of the recent WW II flicks, but maybe it will draw some intrest of some the younger generations to take a closer look at this incredible point in our not too distant past. maybe these films will make them want learn the truth behind these events and pass them along. just a thought.
p.s.s. i need some pilots, anyone intrested in flying with a disorganized mediocre squad? :D
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Originally posted by SKurj
finally got the chance to see Das Boot last weekend... (pc was broke lol)
Great flick! everything I had been told was true...
They did step away from realism briefly in places, but hey, not yer typical Hollywood trash +)
SKurj
Yes, but did you watch it in German with English subtitles? That's the only way to watch it!!! :) Fantastic film indeed, one of my all time favourite war movies.
Regards
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Originally posted by Replicant
Yes, but did you watch it in German with English subtitles? That's the only way to watch it!!! :) Fantastic film indeed, one of my all time favourite war movies.
Regards
...no, unfortunately I did not. I'm gonna though. The overdubbed english is "ok" but that redheaded guys voice is COMPLETELY off, really detracted from the film.
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Yeah the movie loses 80% of its entertainment when dubbed. See it with the original soundtrack..
Be careful with Caidin's work. He tended not to verify his facts. Arthur W. Heiden, who wrote the letter that motivated Caidin to write FTD, and who actually wrote most of the last chapter, is a friend of mine. The best stuff in FTD is gleaned from the pilots. That story about the P-38 returning to base with a dead pilot, and breaking up over the field, is a highly fictionalized version of the truth. Bob Johnson told me that he found Caidin was constantly trying to sensationalize Johnson's story and he (Johnson) had several heated arguments with Caidin when he found several blatant exaggerations in the first drafts of the manuscript. Caidin was a book factory, like Ambrose is today. In that respect, Caidin did not take time to confirm dubious facts in order to meet deadlines. Read his stuff with care.
Why don't you just say it straight: The guy writes science fiction, don't take him seriously.
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Originally posted by Esme
An interesting point is to consider whether, if Germany had succeeded in invading mainand Birtain, Russia would have still been able to fight off the Germans anyway. Given the size of the country and its natural resources, I rather think they would have. They might have take a year or two longer to do it, but I think 1946 would have seen the Red Army in Berlin anyway.
Mind you, to some extent that depends on what would have happened in North Africa and the Middle and Far East. Would the US have stepped in to help Britis/Empire forces defend Egypt and use Egypt as a base to conduct raids against Axis-held Europe? Would the Western Alies have been invading Italy as the Russians started pushing the Germans back into Poland and the Balkan States, leaving Britain the last Axis-held country to be liberated?
I have long held this view.............. (re an eventual Russian dominance of Europe had Hitler invaded the UK successfully)
whether the US and UK/Commonwealth remnants could have still staged an invasion of Italy is interesting.......... I think it would come down to how much of the British Navy and its merchant fleet was lost to the Allies and how the expeditionary forces in North Africa would have survived the period from early 41 to early 43 with no UK based logistical source. (Given the US did not give direct military support until after Pearl)
You have to remember that US political,media and general public opinion was 50/50 if not against assisting the Brits at the end of 1940. In fact at the beginning of BoB the US political and media thought that the UK would loose. The US media had been captured by the wonder of the almost magical German military machine. In fact it was only after Sea lion had been cancelled that by co incidence US media reporters based in London began to report the amazingly high moral of the British people and their conviction to defeat Hitler and his allies. These stories (of a nation determined to fight on alone) began slowly to change the ground swell of US public opinion allowing Roosevelt to to commit military forces to Europe after Pearl.
My View any way
Tilt
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ermm Yes i did watch the subtitled version
SKurj
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Aye, Tilt, that's another fascinating aspect of the war, sure enough, and one which I don't a yet know that much about - the state of US public opinion, and what the feeling in the upper political and military circles was like. Although know very generally that the US was rather isolationist in views prior to Pearl Harbour, I don't know details, and would welcome being pointed at a good souce of info on the subject. What was the US feeling about the long-term possibility of a Europe dominated by Nazi Germany? Aprehensive? Couldn't care less? Something else? I have no idea - I'd very much appreciate being pointed at some good sources on the subject.
Ditto what our Commonwealth Allies might have done had Britain fell. Would "the British Empire" have continued to fight as such, or would it have fallen apart, and the desire for self-determination in some parts have fought with the desire to fight the Axis to an extent that would have hindered the war effort?
Esme
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Originally posted by Esme
Aye, Tilt,
Well here are a few but there are many more….. firstly this link will take you to some pages that refer to US public opinion re war in Europe
http://www.gwu.edu/~pad/202/readings/foreign.html
Quote
Opposition to foreign combat. Contrary to the cliché, wars are not "popular" -- at least not in the U.S. The most popular politicians have been those who promised to do everything possible to keep American boys out of war.
Americans overwhelmingly wanted to stay out of World War II. Gallup polls in 1939 showed that 96% opposed "joining the European war" and declaring war on Germany. When asked if they wanted the United States to keep out of the war even if it would mean Germany would conquer England and France, 77% still said "stay out." To help ensure this, 69% favored "stricter neutrality laws" and 73% liked the idea of requiring the government to call a "national referendum" before a war could be declared. In 1940, on the general question of entry into the war, 86% were in opposition. And, as late as July 1941, an overwhelming 79% still opposed American involvement.
Unquote
In fact FDR was in favour of some intervention and various US government bodies were both with and against him in this respect…………….. you will see his attempts to change public opinion in the Charlottesville address linked to below………
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/52.htm
Further reflections on the US isolationist policy is given here…… you can see that government was broadly leading public opinion…… so propaganda was pro intervention…….
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs/m33/m33c4.html
There were non governmental anti interventionist groups one headed by Lindbergh who was a national hero of the time and very pro German……..
http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/index.asp
Of interest would be to look up stuff about Joseph Patrick Kennedy US ambassador to London until his resignation in 1940…..here you see another view from FDR’s own ambassador that Britain would loose against Germany and that isolationism was the only way forward.
An example is here
http://www.ytedk.com/politics.htm
Quote.
Kennedy's ambassadorship coincided with the beginning of World War II in Europe; and throughout his three year tenure, Kennedy argued against American and British involvement in the war. Even as the Nazis rolled into France, Joe expressed his support for Hitler and maintained a position of appeasement toward Germany.
- In May 1940, Winston Churchill was elected British Prime Minister. The rise of Churchill brought an end to appeasement, and hastened Joe's decline. When Kennedy publicly proclaimed that "Democracy is finished in England," Roosevelt called for his resignation.
Unquote
I advise that you research more alone to find and form a view……..these snippets are very “scanty” compared to the wealth of history that can be found when looking. However be ready to find some closed doors………
My View is that the US would not have provided any direct Military aid to Europe in the event of a German invasion of the UK. One major reason for not doing so already was the fear of it being unsuccessful.
In fact it could be argued that subsequent to german invasion of Britain (and after pearl) materiel support to Russia would have been stepped up even further than history shows due to a prospect of linking of the east and west axis powers being one of ulitimate disaster for US interests in general.
Tilt
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Why do all the British people call it Pearl Harbour? I mean we Americans don't spell your British provinces different from how you spell them, so I'm just wondering why British people don't spell our States by how we spell them, when us Americans spell your provinces how you spell them?
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Why do all the British people call it Pearl Harbour? I mean we Americans don't spell your British provinces different from how you spell them, so I'm just wondering why British people don't spell our States by how we spell them, when us Americans spell your provinces how you spell them?
Just a guess, but it's because Harbo(u)r is a noun, and the language is common. I've never imagined there was any dissrespect intended. I don't imagine that most Americans would spell it with a "U" if the shoe were on the other foot.
Also, Pearl Harbor isn't a state.
-Sikboy
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Many thanks, Tilt! I Will be happily poring over that little lot as tim permits.. :-)
Sikboy is essentially correct. I didn't even THINK about the spelling, to be honest, and I've never seen it spelt any other way that I can recall. Whilst I sporadically make attempts to spell Continental place names as per the local language (so Rhein, Koln, Maas, etc rather than Rhine, Cologne, Meuse), first of all clarity can be an issue - so much has been written using English bastardisations of foreign place names that using anything else on the quick can sometimes confuse, although I tend to feel that folk OUGHT to try to learn the proper names.
With American places there is a further problem. As is the case with any language that is similar, but not identical, to its mother language, the younger language often makes users of the older one wince. If I moved to America, I would stick with UK words and spellings, no matter what, whereas if I went to live on the Continent, I'd happily learn and speak the local language.
And, aye, I've encountered a few examples of Americans sticking with American spellings even when talking of places in the UK, or even actually livng here. "Boro" instead of "Borough" is a common one. (shrugs...) Human nature - and an ENTIRELY different topic involved there!
Esme
(wondering if many Americans even know what we consider to be provinces within the UK! (smile...) )
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wow, there are some very interesting ideas here. i only wish this forum was a real time conversation and not a posting. hehe i had lots to say but then either someone said it or i have forgotten. I totally agree with Esme on the problems that Germany faced on invading Britain. Vorticon said that the luftwaffe should level London and then the war would be over. Firstly I dont think we should make fun of Vorticon for his "uninformed" oppinions. The fact is that we all have them, especially with history. Unless you have read from many different sources will you get a complete and correct oppinion. No one is an idiot because history is often based on scattered facts, rarely is all the info completely known. And we definatly shouldnt generalize about the historical knowledge of someone just because of their age. back to what i was saying. Attacking london was one of the reasons why the Germans were unable to defeat the British. They deverted bomber attacks from strategic British defences (fighter bases, radar posts etc.) and tried to defeat the british by destroying their moral-a tactic that worked well on Madrid durring the spanish civil war. Esme's right on about the many setbacks that the Germans would have faced.
Hangtime
"its pitiful. we get no respect at all for what we did during and after.. our motives are smeared, our efforts after the war ignored. truly pitiful. no wonder lil kids grow up over there thinking we're all toejamheads."
in response to Hangtimes, "uninformed" comment i am wondering what you are looking for in terms of respect? as if the US doesnt get enough respect as it is. people talk of getting their historica knowledge from movies..what about in pearl harbor when that american guy goes to england, shoots down a bunch of Germans and the british...commander (i dont actually know his rank) says something along the lines of "if all americans are like you i pitty anyone who goes to war with them" DO NOT quote me on that cuz i havnt seen if since it was in theatres but it was stupid. that opitimizes that american pride. like one american pilot turns the tide of the war. 1 question though, if we are trying to be logical, why would the british commander be impressed with this american guy, even if he did shoot down a bunch of planes? its not like there werent british aces, and for that matter combat vets who actually have experience, instead of a guy who has never even flown a spitfire. maybe he could play chicken and scare the pants off some German's though!
the second part of your statement says that your "motives are smeared." now you are american right? i am wondering how much you actually know about the US entering the war. there were many more factors than just pearl harbor. did you know that the US had isolationist laws. they prevented the US from entering the war despite Roosevelts desires to do so. the main reason that your reputaion was smeared was because America became the world power it is today by prifiting or WW1 and mainly WW2. anyone is going to be mad when they are fighting their tulips off and the US is sitting back raking in the money. The US profited greatly from the war.
also, no one ignores the american effort after the war. at the end of the war there were no other countries capable of lending aid to the war torn nations. many of the former world powers were bankrupt and undoubtedly it would have taken many more years for the recovery process to begin. on the other hand, greed was the force behind the aid. giving money to countries if they spent it on american goods...
you say that little kids think americans are toejam heads. the fact is that people hate americans for many reasons. it is definatly biased and unacceptable for us to have them but nevertheless we do.
SLASH27, you said that you would like to talk more about this topic..i would also, i like to hear both sides of the topic, despite the fact that americans are trying to screw us canadians economically, and many other countries for that matter. its practically neo-imperialism.
AKSWulfe
"So based on the ignorant jibberish you're posting, I could say "all canadians don't know a lick of history?
Who were the red tails? "
who was the commanding officer of fliegercorps X, who frickin cares. just because you know who the red tails are doesnt mean you know anything about history. in the whole scheme of things how important is knowing who the red tails are. I AM CANADIAN and no i dont know who the red tails are.
ahh, well i didnt expect to write that much, i guess i got caught up. if anyone has anything to say about this, and i bet they do, i bet i would if i read it again,-frankly i cant remember what i was talking about at the beginning- you can e-mail me if you have something inteligent to say, otherwise dont. i would be happy to discus it with someone/ppl
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>>So, I hope that most youths don't think this way..<<
Rip:
I hope that most youths....think
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>>So, I hope that most youths don't think this way..<<
Rip:
I hope that most youths....think
and....
Learn the names of the capitals of each state
become able to know what the continents are
be able to name the oceans, and say where they are
know the difference between north and south, east and west, and know what direction they are in
And until they can do so they need to:
Keep their eyes and ears open and their mouths shut
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In response to HANGTIME, learn about what we get taught over here before you start mouthing off about it, no one is disrespected in any way when kids over here are taught about the war, we get straight up facts,as far as im aware,:mad:
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Originally posted by midnight Target
For an interesting and humorous aside, see 'The Right Stuff' by Tom Wolfe for the story of how 'Chuck' Yeager, the pilot who actually broke the sound barrier, had to contend with the legends established by this film.
;)
hey, guess where most, if not all, the research to allow a controlled 'faster than sound' flight came from, well its not american, its british!
sometime near the end of the war, our 2 governments made an agreement to share research of jet technology, we Brits went through with it, we gave you all our research, but in return, you gave F**K ALL! saying it was a security risk.
Basicly you stole our research.
and the magical elevator(a small wing that went up and down) that Chuc himself says no one else knew about, and that Americans invented it is complete BS, it was invented by the British and first used on a spit in 1943, big time gap between 1943 and 1946 (I think thats right)
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Originally posted by BenDover
hey, guess where most, if not all, the research to allow a controlled 'faster than sound' flight came from, well its not american, its british!
sometime near the end of the war, our 2 governments made an agreement to share research of jet technology, we Brits went through with it, we gave you all our research, but in return, you gave F**K ALL! saying it was a security risk.
Basicly you stole our research.
and the magical elevator(a small wing that went up and down) that Chuc himself says no one else knew about, and that Americans invented it is complete BS, it was invented by the British and first used on a spit in 1943, big time gap between 1943 and 1946 (I think thats right)
Tah-Gut was nice enough to supply us with a source. Any chance you guys have citation in the UK?
-Sikboy
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what kind of citation?
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Originally posted by BenDover
what kind of citation?
Well a citation is a reference to a source (usually an expert in the field) who provides you with information. I'm assuming that you weren't part of both the British Supersonic Program, and the American one that stole all that information. Just curious.
-Sikboy
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"Oh, the horror of the younger generation and its understanding of history "
Had a classic example of this in the CT a few nights ago. Very little history knowledge, preaching "facts" backed up by the ever popular "I'm a history major!" (love that line).
At the very least, I admired his passion for history. Maybe that passion will one day lead to reading books and actually studying the subject. :)
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got any quotes or better yet, screen shots of what he was saying?
oh yeah sikboy, some old guy who worked on it, can't remember his name
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Originally posted by Oldman731
...a lot of Southerners talk the same way about the Civil War.....
- oldman
We would have won the war had one or two things goen differently at Gettysburg. Not taken the north but secured our on freedom. Or if Early had hadnt run out of steam and had marched in the back door to D.C.(He was only 7 miles away.). Of course wouldve helped to have jmust half as many men.
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Originally posted by Hobodog
We would have won the war had one or two things goen differently at Gettysburg. Not taken the north but secured our on freedom. Or if Early had hadnt run out of steam and had marched in the back door to D.C.(He was only 7 miles away.). Of course wouldve helped to have jmust half as many men.
Heh heh. Would have taken more than one or two things to win at Gettysburg. And even then, I'm not certain that the union would have simply gasped and said "OK, OK, you win, you win, just please leave us alone!"
- oldman
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Not trying to take anything away from English engineers Ben, just pointing out inaccuracies in a movie.
In the movie the guy playing Dehaviland (sp?) finally figures out the secret to supersonic flight is to "Reverse the stick". Chuck Yeager while on a press tour of England was actually asked whether he "reversed the stick". He said no, and explained how this was more like suicide than anything else. People were incredulous and many seemed to feel he was lying.
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it wasn't a movie, never a heard "Reverse the stick",
and as i said it was to do with the the moving horizontal stab (the whole rear wing as he called it, moved), which stopped the controls jamming up
btw, i never believe ANYTHING in movies, movies are primarly roadkill to entertain those not interested in facts (those that are based on facts)
back to the point, this wasn't a movie, it was an interview, i wish i could remember the name of the guy or the plane even (which was scrapped after the US didn't give us any research)
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I have that - "Entered a whole different dimension" - feeling.
Weren't we talking about inaccurate movies?
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but its ok, cos we do it in style:D
(http://www.avweb.com/oshkosh/osh2000/oshwire/concord.jpg)
(http://www.ess.uci.edu/tour/big/concord.jpg)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I have that - "Entered a whole different dimension" - feeling.
Weren't we talking about inaccurate movies?
no, we were talking about youths not knowing the correct bits of history
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WOW this post is STILL around...that is a quote from my junior member days...man thats old...but ill show you ill show you all
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Originally posted by BenDover
no, we were talking about youths not knowing the correct bits of history
:rolleyes:
Target was talking about a movie, as an aside. You were saying something nationalistic about something. Coulda Shoulda Woulda I think is how it went.
-Sikboy
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Of course they have less WW2 knowledge then you guys. You guys are a bunch of WW2 geeks.
I hope you enjoy your little ego trips though.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Of course they have less WW2 knowledge then you guys. You guys are a bunch of WW2 geeks.
Indeed. Much better to be Ignorant but cool :rolleyes:
-Sikboy