Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fd ski on April 03, 2002, 11:25:37 AM
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Analisys of the Env'y and perk point system from the USAGE point.
Thesis:
Perk point and ENV point systems are designed to even out the playing field for all planes in the arena.
Planes which do not have high usage are encouraged by making then high ENY value, which allows pilots to accumulate perk points faster.
Method:
The only official sources from HTC are on the scores pages.
Info was drawn from IE Expanded format scores for tour 26 ( march ).
All planes were matched up with their env values ( NOTE: Those are NEW AND UPDATED ENV values as posted by Eskimo2 at http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49877
This is to refect the aim in which Pyro would like us to go towads. Also, I did not have the old ENV values for analisys, if anyone has them, please send them my way. )
Total number of earned PERK points per each plane type was calculated. Example:
Zeke killed 100 C205s, hince 27/40 * 100 = 67.5 points
( there is an assumption here that ALL those kills were landed, which offcourse they were not. I have no access to sortie/death data hince I have to assume a liniar relation for all the planes. Good offshoot of this is that it eliminates all the discussion on the defensive abilities of the planes involved - good speed, good climb, ability to dive away )
Total number of perk points for each plane was totaled, and divided by the total number of kills.
Example:
Zeke had total of 11978.54 perk points earned and total of 8156 kills. 11978.54/8156 = 1.468679 perk points per kill.
Same was done for all the planes.
Also, all the kills were totalled up and mean of kills was found by dividing total number of kills/total number of planes. If all the planes got equal number of kills, they would get 2.27% of the total number of kills, which is 6144.77 kills.
Both data sources were put in the columns attached with this post.
Results were sorted by the AVERAGE PERK POINTS/KILL column.
Means were:
Average plane will get 1.13 perk points for a kill.
Average plane will score 6144 kills in the tour.
P/K column
Planes marked in red for Perks/Kills columns are those which earn LESS THEN HALF of the average P/K points. Flying those planes, you need to score twice the number of kills to get your average.
Planes marked in green in P/K column, are those which earn DOUBLE number of perk points per kill. Flying those planes will earn you twice the number of perk points per kill.
% Kills column
RED: planes which on average score more then DOUBLE average number of kills for the arena. ( Planes that scored more then 6144*2 = 12288 kills ) This indicates OVERUSAGE.
GREEN: Planes which scored less then half the average kills in the arena ( 6144/2 = 3072 kills ). This indicates UNDERUSAGE.
Conclusions:
First perk points per kill:
All perk planes and N1K2 and Spitfire 9 fall in the category of planes which earn least points for flying them.
Usage ( % kills ) of Perk planes is very small, which Spitfire IX is a king of the hill.
Interesting fact is that second most used planes - P51D doesn't fall in the Low P/K category.
Another heavly overused planes - LA7 on average earns 1.5 times more points per kill then spitfire 9 or N1K2.
Of interest is %kills of F4U1-C - low perk in the arena. It has reasonable 2.02 usage, well within 2.27% mean. This seems to lend creditibility to those calling for overall lowering level of perks to single digits and teens.
As far as %kill numbers are conserned ( usage )
Planes in the bottom of the list - 202, Ki61, 109E/F, Spit 1, Hurries are bargin perk hunters, and very much UNDERUSED.
Suggestion here would be to raise their ENV point value even higher, which may in turn raise the usage levels.
Low usage of P51B is of interest here, seeing how it's younger brother 51D is the second most used plane in the plane set.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions.
Disclaimer:
I realise that %kills isn't the best indicator of usage, but I have no other reliable indicator that I could use.
Pyro, would sortie number be avaiable on request ?
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Making the ENY value of the very seldom used aircraft high to encourage more people to fly them has no more of an effect on people flying them than saying, "Hey guy, I'll give ya a shiney nickle if you fly a SpitI instead of a SpitIX."
Getting perk aircraft isn't their goal, being the most 3l33t f1g|-|t3r p10l3t is their goal... but they have no quarrels with squeaking about how they can't afford to fly a perk plane.
Learn the rules of the game and you'll get that perty perk plane, keep flying them other low ENY planes you'll never get a perk plane.
-SW
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Yep SW. You could drop the La7 ENY to 0 and I bet you would still see them in hordes.
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Solution: More low level perks!! Perk the La7 and they will care about ENY value! Along with it, perk the P51D, the G10, the D9, the Yak etc. ... !
Mid- war planes should be free - force em to fly early war to get the late war monsters... :)
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That makes sense to me Kirin.
For every late war plane that could be perked, there is an earlier variant readily available.
-SW
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Perking the P-51 would be a bad idea. Pure and simple.
Besides... everyone seems to be completely ignoring the most comonly used aircraft... the spit IX.
Its strange to me... this whole discussion.
You can argue based on performance, but several planes outperform the Spitfire Mk IX is many categories.
You can argue based on usage, but the Spitfire Mk IX is used more than other much faster aircraft.
The truth of the matter is that people will fly the most generic plane available. The jack of all trades will always be the most popular for those that don't wish to have to think about what plane to fly.
The only thing that perking current MA planes does is limit the number of available choices. Limitting is a bad thing. Especially if it means taking away.
I fail to see the need to limit the Spitfire Mk IX usage, the La-7 usage, the P-51 usage or really... any other non-perked aircraft in the MA. Can anyone actually show that they have more/less trouble fighting these aircraft than any others? What happens when the next aircraft becomes more popular?
It just suprises me that so much time and energy is spent trying to dictate what others should or should not fly.
The perk system should remain a method to allow the introduction of aircraft that would impact the MA too greatly. I fail to see how a plane with a 1:1 k/d is falling into that category.
There is no need to "even out" the types of aircraft you are flying against.
AKDejaVu
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Makes no sense at all. HTC wants to make money--they're not going to make money by pissing off their customers and causing them to quit the game (I'd be the first out the door). You can't make a game popular by taking away all the popular equipment.
If you people want a place for the earlier planes to compete, that'a fine, but don't argue for changing the MA--argue for them to open a second arena (or permanently change the CT to early-war, all the time).
J_A_B
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DJ, parity.
There is absolutely NO parity with a SpitI in the same arena as a P51D.... At some point a lot of planes will either a) have to be limited or b) be perked or even c) RPS with perks.
One way or the other, we are moving into the early years.... a place we were with before only by 1 plane (the 202). With the introduction of the 110C-4, SpitI, HurriI, and 109E-4/B, we are seeing the parity of performance drastically dissipate.
The parity is gone, in order for this game to be enjoyable and cater to everyone... the parity must be present.
I'll say it again, a P51D and a SpitI in the same arena does not equate to parity.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
For every late war plane that could be perked, there is an earlier variant readily available.
-SW
I will agree with this when the F6F-3 and the F4F-4/FM-1/FM-2 is added for us USN fans, when the P-40, P-39, early model P-38 are added for the USAAF fans, when the early model Zekes are added (A6M2, both A6M3's, or even the sraight A6M5) for the IJN fans, when the Ki-43 and Ki-44 are added for the IJAAF fans. This doesn't even get into all the various dive bombers and tordonuts that were around back then.
Until this happens, those of us who prefer PTO planes are left flying the F4U-1 - and that is it. I won't even get into the whole early war Eastern Front for the VVS fans.
When these sets are fleshed out, I will support perking late war planes at a low cost. Then again, I am never vocal about it and would most likely keep flying the F6F even if it is perked (meaning I can really care less about what is perked and isn't).
-math
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people beetch about not being able to fly a perk rides then you check their stats and they fly spit ixs la7 p51s and n1k2's.....
There is only 7 perk planes
262
Arado
152
Temp
F4u4
Spit14
Chog
The way folks are carrying on about how unfair it is you would think someone is stealing from them.
My ex squaddie had 6000+ perks and can give a fek about perk planes. Even if free he wouldn't fly umm.
If they desire them so much get in a plane with a lo eny value and kill ones with a high eny value. It aint that hard. Personally I dunno what they think they are missing out on. As soon as they get killed and realize that there are no magic planes they will be right back in the la7s spits n1k2s and la7s.
The fact is eny value only efects folks who want to fly perk planes. Instead of adjusting to the rules of the game they whine and cry how the game should be re-adjusted to suit them.
Then theres the other camp that says the highest perk ought to be no more then 20.
Now I am not as good as most of the guys in ah I am at best average. I flew a 205 once and got 70 perks. Yeah thats way above the average. But flying a 205 and g2 I have had pretty regular runs of 20 perks and probrably average 12-14 a sortie.
I had at one time 4200 fighter perks I lost most of umm in 262s when it was new. I got down to around 1200 now I am back to 2300. I average maybe 30-40 hours a tour.
the only reason the average perk sortie in AH is so low is because of the planes most of the rest fly. They know the eny value going in.
Eny values only matter when you want that shiney spit 14 or temp or 262. and if you cant earn 10 perks a day get out of the la7 and earn your ride like anyone else who wants to fly a perk plane.
No free perk days
No free perk points handed out
No jet day
No reducing perk planes to the point where they are so cheap might as be free
The main inst suffering from the rarity of perk planes
People are beetchin about the over dosage of spits la7s p51s in the main now. If everyone spent 500 perks a tour imagine the beetchin. Fly what ever plane you want for what ever reason you want. No one oughta catch crap because of the planes they ride. But when it comes to perks earn like everyone else.
USN fly the f4u-1
Raf fly hurris
Usaaf fly d11 or p51b
Lw e4 f4 g2
VVs la5 or yak9t
Ijn/a
Zeke and tonies
Whatever your plane type preference is you can earn your precious perk bird.
We dont need a welfare perk system. My brother's wife's brother manages a a gas station in the rough part of town here. On the 1st and 15th the lottery line is jam packed. I can imagine a free perk day in ah being near the same.
No Free Lunch......
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J A B are right, but to stimule a chalange , some separate qlasifications , mostly every 1 is it in squad , all squad historic or fictive have to select 2 or 3 planes what will give character of the squad , then you can clas squads in to category Historical or Fictive , and the last category for people who dont like anithing a free choice without limit , just like now, but then not get reward on perks or ENY values like sqad ranked or historicl squad ranked
?
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what is a perk?
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ive said that all along kirin.
I believe that perking all planes with an earlier variant modelled in-game as cheap perks would solve this fantastic powerplane horde we're so used to seeing.
Say, make them cost 1 perk point per model avaliable. For example:
109E=0
F4= .5
G2=1
G6=1.5
G10=2
P-51b=0
p-51D=2
spit1+seafire=0
spitv=.5
spitIX=1
jug11=0
d25=1
d30=1.5
La5=0
la7=2
Yak9t=0
Yak9U=1
38F=0
38J=.5
38L=1 (pass the bong, im dreaming its fixed and earlier versions modelled again!) ;)
n1k1=0 (augh.. hangoverss)
n1k2-J=1
a6m2=0
a6m3=.5
a6m5=1
110C4=0
110G2=1
hurri1/40mm Hurri=0
20mm Hurri=1
f4u-1=0
f4u-C=4
f4u-D=1
c202=0
c205=1
etc etc
With this in place, anyone can up an early plane and gain the 2 perks in 1 or 2 sorties and be able to fly his late war plane of choice. We would see more use of the early planes, thus HTC efforts in modelling them would not go to waste (202s and spit1's? ive yet to see more than 1 a month in the air!).
Adjusting the ENY and OBJ values so that the early planes can gain 1 point for shooting any other early war plane and like 2 or 3 perks for shooting a late war ride, and so that the late war rides get like .2 points for shooting an early war plane and 1 point for shooting a late war plane.
I loved how a system like this worked in the CT, it was great.
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Argue extremes all you want (P-51 vs Spit I)... it won't change the fact that people will still prefer the Spit V over the Spit I. The only way to get the "parity" you are looking for is to fly the CT. Either that or limit the MA to one aircraft choice.
AKDejaVu
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Ah, what a pleasure it is to read a thread that doesn't simply consist of the settling of old scores, old positions rehashed, and the belaboring of the obvious, but contains new and insightful observations about pressing concerns of the day.
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Wow FD Ski, that's very cool. I thought I wonder how many of us have actually broken out Excel to work with AH stats lol.
to some badass work!
-Sikboy
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thats a dumb idea tac. a p51b free while 109 f4 costs perks lol
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DJ, but there is parity between the SpitV and the SpitI.
There isn't any parity between a '44 aircraft and a '40 aircraft... which is my point. Why do we have some '44 aircraft perked while others aren't?
But fine, lets do it based on usage. Or a combination of usage + introduction....
And on top of all that, I'll bet you a box of donuts that if the current overly used rides get perked... that you'll just see some new planes take over as more popular....
But with this in mind, remember parity, we can safely assume these new "more popular rides" won't severly outclass the '40 planes as they do now.
It might not be very fair to you to not be able to fly the fastest plane in the set with the biggest guns, but it's not exactly fair to subject the guys that want to fly the slower planes with the smallest guns to your aforementioned ride without penalties.
Personally, I think what you fly should be reflected in your score and in the perks you earn.
Someone that can maintain a 2.0k/d, 2.0 k/s and .22 k/t in a SpitI deserves a much better score than some easy-mode 3l33t f1g|-|t3r p10l3t in a P51D 10K above the furball.
-SW
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Guys, you're missing the point.
It's not about partity or fairness.
it's about the very simple question
How do we have the arena in which ALL the planes are avaiable ( within reason - aka - some perks ) yet at this same time, give pilots incentive to fly the lesser aircraft ?
Solve this and you get 100 brownie points.
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Answer: Pay for their online subscription.
90% of the people who fly AH are flying it because they wanna be hotshots ala Top Gun... most of 'em don't even know where the fuel tank is in the plane their flying.
"Big guns, fast... what else could I possibly need?!?"
No matter how much of an incentive you throw around, they just won't care.
-SW
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Wulfie.. your implication as to what parity means is not possible.
Not even remotely.
You can always argue that "parity" does not exist in the MA. And you will always be able to argue it unless there is just one aircraft available.
A Spit I stands just as much chance against a P-51D as it does against virtually every other aircraft in the MA.... except for maybe 3 other planes. It can't catch it.. but what can it catch? Don't go picking the slowest damn plane to prove a point... its overkill and counter productive.
As far as what to perk? Hmmmm... I think the planes currently perked deserve it... I don't think the planes currently unperked deserve it. You can throw a model year in there if you want to... but when I look at the perk planes I see distinct advantages in some category and often in multiple categories. Wether its cannons or top speed or some combination of both... there is an advantage there. Even the Ta-152 has a distinct advantage via altitude (whether LW likes to admit it or not) and merrits the perking.
The P-51 is faster than many aircraft in the MA, but it rarely enjoys much more than a 1:1 k/d ratio. The La-7 is fast and turns decent, but it has one of the more anemic gun packages available. The Dora only goes fast... it doesn't do much else well. The G-10 climbs and runs well... not much else.
I just don't see these aircraft in the MA and think "OH CRAP!".... and I fly the F6F-5 exclusively. Hell.. the SpitV is perhaps the toughest plane in the MA to engage... but that isn't what is being considered here.
If running away from fights is the main consideration in the MA, then the fast planes deserve to be perked. But it isn't... not even remotely. The low turn-fights are where everything is happening. Most of this thread seems dedicated to eliminating a neusance (those damn planes the turnfighters can't catch) more than creating parity.
AKDejaVu
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I had to call Ronni and ask her how all of this perk stuff worked. I myself, and everyone in our squad, never gives a thought to perks....at least it is never mentioned.
I would like to see the theatre of operations(terrains) and a rps control the usage...in addition, I would like to see the scoring system reflect the usage as well. If ya drive a pony and kill spit1's then you should not score as high point wise as you would flying a spit1 and shootin down Mustangs.
Ahhh crap! I got drawn into this discussion when it has no impact on me enjoying myself...how did that happen???
Shame on all of you:)
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Guys, I hate to say this, but I don't think it will ever work. I'm all with the guys that want to see the early war planes, I really am. I flew the 109E4 a lot this past tour. The 109E4 is about as uncompetitive a plane as we have in AH. That said, I still had a good time flying it (for the most part). Now THAT said, I don't think many people would. I also don't think many people would enjoy flying the C202, Spit I, Hurri I, P40 (if it ever gets introduced), or ANY plane that isn't 1944 or up. The Spit IX is an exception, because it is very well suited to 'mixing it up' with great guns, turning, and acceleration. The SpitV is also an exception, but just because the most popular plane in the game is the Spit IX and the Spit V outturns it while retaining marginally worse acceleration and the same guns.
The 109E4 almost turns with the Spit IX, it is slower, rolls much worse, accelerates worse, climbs worse, and has about half the firepower.
The Spit I is slower than the Spit IX, turns better, rolls worse, accelerates worse, climbs worse, and has maybe 1/10th the firepower.
The Hurri I stacks up the same as the Spit I.
The P40 would stack up the same as the 109E4.
It isn't the 1944 'speed demons' that make it hard for the early war planes to compete, guys. It is the 'jack of all trades' 1942 Spit IX. That said, the guys flying the 1944-45 planes fly them so they can GET AWAY from the Spit IXs, not fight them. We've got a reasonable 'balance of power' in the MA now between the late war planes and the early/mid-war planes (Spit IX and V). The other early war planes don't have a place in the arena as it is, and trying to force people to fly them will just make them mad and cause them to leave, not 'diversify' the arena.
If you want the arena to be 'diverse', you have to do it yourself. Fly one of the 'hangar queens' once in a while, instead of complaining that nobody flies them.
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you should realise then, that if majority people are indeed like that, then they are the ones paying for the game.
If that's so, it would be extreemly stupid of HTC to do things to make them like the game less.
Let's talk realisic, not utopia, eh ?
My suggestoin would be as follows:
Per points right now, as the numbers show ( with exception of F4U-1C ) are almost none existant in the arena. It's a shame that HTC uses up the time to make planes that noone can fly.
So, lower all perk points across the board to below 10 level.
Lower the ENV values of perk planes and all hot rod rides which get more then 5% arena usage to ENV value of 1 to 5.
Raise the ENV values of planes which are underused to 70+
If one mission in C202 with 1 kill earns you a flight in 262, while same will take you 60 missions in La7, which will you do ?
If those people indeed want the latest and greatest, they will jump at the chance of flying 262/spit14/tempest/Ta152.
But right now there are two problems with that:
-perks are too expensive,
- perk planes are so rare in the arena, that you are automatically targeted by everyone around you.
Lowering perk values in this case cause the following:
- more perk plane usage ( why have those planes modeled when noone uses them ? I can't remember last time I saw Ta152 )
- more people flying lesser planes to earn them - to counter the perk planes already up and about.
This is a very delicate equation. Overdoing it will cause the arena full of 262s and tempests. HTC should post the stats to the community group which could review the bare math behind them, and make recommendations on the usage in previous tour, not plane's performance/preferance.
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90% of the people who fly AH are flying it because they wanna be hotshots ala Top Gun... most of 'em don't even know where the fuel tank is in the plane their flying.
Good one wulfie... its always a wise idea to start using "them" in your argument. And "90% do something" too... especially when its so obvious you are pulling that number out of your ass.
Because... what you are really saying is "10% of use should decide the fate for the other 90%".
AKDejaVu
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So using k/d is presumably a way to argue that a plane should or should not be perked?
If we are going to do that, wouldn't it make more sense to actually disect the statistics for that particular plane to find out the k/d among every player who has at one time or another flown the plane? The to find out the average lowest k/d, mid range k/d and average high k/d?
In this case, I'll bet you another box of donuts that the P51D, while maintaining only a 1:1k/d at the moment, could and would hold a much higher k/d if it weren't for the abundant of newbies flying them. There are less newbies that fly other planes, the 190A8 for example, has close to a 2.0k/d... so does this mean it's twice as capable as the P51D? of course not, it means less newbies fly it because it's harder. It's got 4 cannons and is fast, but it's a bear to handle.
The P51D, when in doubt, can drop a notch or two of flaps and scurry out of a lot of planes gunsights. Then proceed to point it's nose down and haul bellybutton back to the safety of his ack.
Also, I didn't pick the slowest plane... The HurriI and 109E are slower than the SpitI.
You are on the deck turn fighting with a SpitV in a SpitI... you got that fight pretty much won. Even if he does try to run away, he can't out accelerate you like the '44 planes can. This means you have more hope of damaging him before he gets out of range of your guns.
What will do you do vs a P51D? Not a damn thing except turn in tight circles until he shoots you down.
-SW
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wulfe,
I'm using % of total kills now because that's the only number avaiable to reflect the actual usage.
If Pyro allowed an access to the total sorties in each plane, that would be determining factor as far as i'm conserned.
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So now we're up to perking planes based not on how they actually do in the arena, but how they could do if only good pilots flew 'em?
The "perk mafia" is getting funnier all the time.
J_A_B
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The planes highlighted in red comprise 53% of kills in the game. That's only 7 planes. The 190D9, 110G-2, Typhoon IB, and F4U-1D comprise another 17.78%.
The A6M5b comprises 3.02% and Seafire comprise 3.49%, but I bet this is from base defense.
Does that 53% even care what plane they are flying? So long as it's got a huge edge over the ones currently in game, does it really matter to them? Something tells me no.
If the SpitXIV, a 1944 plane, is perked, why is a La7, another 1944 plane, not? Anemic cannons? Nope sorry, 3xB20s is a very good package. The 2xShVAKs aren't. Give it just the 2xShVAKs for free and the 3xB20 package as a cheap perk, bet it's usage drops like a rock.
Pulling that number out of my bellybutton or not, it's obvious for all to see that the type of plane doesn't matter... it's speed and guns and ability to turn when it needs to do matter.
-SW
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I think the LA-7 offers a large enough performance advantage that people would just adjust to using the 2 cannons instead of 3, to be honest.
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I think low cost perk values would work in the MA as far as getting the over-used planes less used and the less used planes used more. Then comes the question 'Is that what we want?' IMO, yes, I'd like to see the perk/ENY values encourage the use of all planes.
In the setup I ran in the CT several weeks ago, I used cheap perks to get the plane sets evened out. (of course I also had in mind evening up the axis vs. allied sides) Here's (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/stats.jpg) a chart of the kill/die ratio after 3 days of the first running of the perdonia setup. Notice the ratio of kills per plane. The 190A5 and especially the spit5 have a disproportionately high number of kills. The next time I ran that setup I lowered the ENY on the 190A5 to 20 and the Spit 5 to 13. Here's (http://events.hitechcreations.com/CT_Setups/setup2.htm) a chart of the values the last time we ran this. The spit5's usage was cut by 1/3. I can't find my screenie of the chart after the adjustment, but taking the ENY way down really had an affect.
This was last run a few weeks before 1.09 was released and doesn't have the new planes in it. They would have to be given a high ENY of course.
IMHO the cheap perk method encourages the use of all planes yet discourages the hording of perk points, and the mid war rides are easily obtainable in a couple of sorties. I'd like to see the perk's go this route rather than only having the high-priced late war super planes affected.
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A social engineering nightmare; I pity Pyro.
IMHO there is nothing terribly wrong with the setup we have now or the previous one. You will never get folks to flock to the 202, spit 1 or 109e4 in the MA. Just won't happen. These fine craft will get most of their use in the CT and scenarios.
Besides its fun to feel arrogantly superior to the hordes in their spits as I run away in my d9.:D
F.
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zigrat, the difference is the P-51b is not a 109. Simple. How many b-ponies you see up? How many 109E's or F4's you see up (when you can tell them apart. But normally, if the 109 is outclimbing you or smaking you with 1 ping its a g6 or g10..and thats almost all the 109s I meet).
I put those numbers basing them on 2 factors. Their "place" in the modelled planeset (aka early to late war) and their potential. A 51B is still a damn fast plane, but its the earliest pony, has worse visibility and only 4 .50 cals. What would you rather meet against your 109E or F? a 51D or a B? I cant say to perk the 51B even at .5 perks because it is the only early model of that plane.
All im saying is I would like to have a system where the planes above the "base" (aka earliest) modelled plane cost some perks. from .5 to 2 perks for most of them, some would have higher cost due to their unbalancing potential (aka, chog). This will encourage the use of the entire planeset, not just the 1944/spitIX - like rides.
I believe we would see much more la5's than la7's if the la5 was free and would enable people to get much more perks per hour than flying an la7, which would cost them perks, albeit an insignificant amount of perks. same with the dpony and the spits and the 109s/190's.
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Why do you want perk values lowered? For what purpose?
Because they are rare?
Thats a good thing aint t ? 10 perks...... shoot I could fly a temp forever.
Cheaper perks will not equal more parity. You are not cheated out of anything by being forced to fly a plane with a lo eny value and killing planes with a high eny value. Thats how it should be.
If folks choose to fly la7s till the cows come home let umm. But if they want to fly a perk plane then let them rethink their strategy a bit.
We just dont have enough planes yet to start perking things like the la7 p51 dora n1k2 and g10. At one time I was all for doing that but there is simply not enough different planes to accomodate this.
You perk all those then the yak and la5 jump in right where they left off. Theres always "the next best thing". We all know that a good chunk of the folks flying those planes do so because it offers them a greater chance to get kills in. Most of them plain suk no matter what they fly.
You cant make anyone fly a plane they dont like and dont have the skills to fly. And why worry about it.
The biggest 3 problems I personally am having with the main is
1. connections
2. the over crowded arena
3. en mass gangbanging (all sides do it you see those mass raids of 50 or so raping 10 guys trying to defend a base)
I just simply can not maintain enough SA to keep track of everyone in furball that have 30 plus folks.
All of these are being addressed.
I dont see why the sudden uproar over eny values and perk planes. Its been what a year or so they have been if effect?
I must be blind because but I think the last thing we need is an arena full of cheap temp f4u4 spit14s and 262s. You might as well get ride of the early birds now and recall AH "Wonder Birds High".
I would hope as the planset fills out with more early and early-mid planes that planes like a dora and g10 and p51d get pushed up into the perk ranks.
I sure wouldn't want an rps. Then yuo will end up with just 1 day a tour to fly your temp F4u4 Spit 14 etc. Thats about 12 days a year.
I will offer this radical statement "Everything is ok as it is" :eek:
No Free lunch
No free or reduced perks
You wanna be a perk farmer do it like everyone else.
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no matter what, the technology gap betwin very early war planes (spit I, hurri I, 109E,202...) is too big to compansate for.
consider a "history of aviation" sim game. how much would you perk the F-16D in an areana with an "eindecker" or a "camel"? what ENY values?
it's impossible to cover such a gap. so is the gap in an entire WWII planeset (not such THAT ridiculous though).
I liked what the CT team did with light perkings and ENY values. this will never even out planes usage, but it will shift it slightly and give some greater reward for flying a terribly inferior plane (beside the great laugh of shooting down an La7 with hurri I).
the ENY differences should be substansial, where Dora, p51D and such, will earn you almost no perks, p47D11, 205, 109G2, La5 and their generation having some perk-gathering ability and BoB erra planeset having extream ENY value.
the "hotshots" will fly their 1945 monsters for they couldn't care less about perks, and those who are interested in some perks for a 262 or tempest or whatever will get it fairly fast, shooting the "hotshots" down, even with a low K/D ratio.
but still you'll have hords of La7/p51/spitIX and a rare 202.
Bozon
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"Why do you want perk values lowered? For what purpose?"
The eny/obj would be adjusted so that you would basically have to shoot down 3 or 4 early war rides IN an early war ride to get the 2pnt to fly a late war ride. Or killing a late war in an early war. Killing a late war in a late war plane wouldnt get you many perks either, thats the way to control their population, since it would be hard for anyone to maintain a constant supply of perks to buy late war planes while flying a late war plane. kinda like you can get 10 kills in a 262 now and only gain 3 perks ;)
You could fly your tempest, but hey, the tempest IS a perked plane now, it wont cost 2 perks. It'd cost 20 or more. Its the late war versions of the currently unperked planes that would cost up to 2 perks.
Of course, think of this as if you started tour with 0 perkies. Take off in your 202 or 109E and in about 3 or 4 sorties, shooting down 6 or so people you may gain about 5-10 perks. Take your 51D up or la7 or 109g10... shoot down 12 people and gain 3 perks. And not even fester can get 12 victories each and every sortie. the arena would gradually be a truly "melting pot" of rides, not the current spitIX/N1k/la7/51D/latewar waffle rides dominating the air.
And that is how I see it :)
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is why the La7=20 earns you more points than Pony D=12
La7 seems like it is and will be becoming the most popular ride.
I think it should be lowered to at least 12-14.
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ENY value has a second function besides determining perk points.
ENY value is used to crunch score points. It works under the same principle as the perk system, except you only get 25% of your earned score points if you die, 75% for a ditch, etc.
eskimo
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yeah thats right ....if we perk an aircraft the arena doesnt get more diversified! and if you perk the most popular ride, AH will fall apart because all those people will leave AH!
what a crock.....the F4uc held a firm 'most popular' plane position for tour after tour until we finally got sick of it. It was perked at a REASONABLE level and its use diminished to a normal level, on par with the average.Did people leave AH? of course they didnt. They went on to another plane and learned to use it to earn perks so they could fly the F4uc again.And guess what? some never did go back to it because they fell in love with a new ride.They could employ the same tactics in some, but maybe had to learn better shooting skills.Some chose other cannon rides and learned new flying tactics.
Now i seem to remember back then certain members, even ones posting their warnings now said that this was a terrible move and people wouldnt put up with their favourite rides being perked etc etc. But when the fuss died down those that really loved the aircraft realised it wasnt so out of reach as they feared.They could still fly it, only not all the damn time.Who benefited? we ALL did. those that flew it all the time switched to other aircraft and that huge 20-25%? lump of players were split between the other rides.
what did we see? A more DIVERSIFIED choice of enemies to fight.Like it or not, NO OTHER AIRCRAFT has since even approached that level of over use. but instead we are begining to see a new, similar pattern only this time with a core of 3 or 4 types.
if these were perked, but at a REASONABLE cost, the true fans of them will still be able to fly them and earn enough to KEEP flying them.BUT those that use them because they are easy or more suited to th MA will move onto a NEW type.
All this talk of perking being the end of the AH world? you all know full well its roadkill. People love this game because of its superb enjoyment and accuracy as much as they like one particular ride.
Even when the results of the f4uc perking are quite obviously good ones, we still see a core of players saying it was a huge mistake and again deciding that perking anything more would end AH altogether!. 'perking doesnt work, I know i played WB'...remember them?
you guys deny diversity yet, at 10%,the nearest plane in that list(p51d) is at half the usage of the f4uc.
where did the other 10% go? they went to other aicraft didnt they.THE pilots were divercified!
its time to consider reevaluating the perk awards/costs in AH if you ask me.we don see too many tempests or spit 14s or ta152s or f4u4s so why such huge perk values? people worried their favourite ride might have some competition? (jab:)?)
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what eskimo? who told you this?
Air points = PlaneDamageScore + KillScore /
KillScore =
((AirKillsThisSortie * 1.0) + (AirAssistsThisSortie * 0.25) +
(GroundKillsThisSortie * 1.0) + (GroundAssistsThisSortie * 0.25) * DeathMult) +
TotalTourKillScore
TotalDamage =
(DamagePointsScoredOnObjectsTh isSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourDamagePointsScoredOn Objects +
(DestroyedPointsScoredOnObject sThisSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourDestroyedPointsScore dOnObjects
Death Multipliers
Landed 1.0
Discoed 0.25
Bailed .5
Ditched .4
Captured
Killed 0.25
Crashed 0.25
Eny values to my knowledge have nothing at all to do with air points?
You have a source?
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Urchin, it's not the # of cannons though. As far as my experiences in the game, the B20 has better ballistics than the ShVAK... atleast it seemed that way to me. At longer ranges I was able to pelt guys easier than I was with the ShVAKs. Admittedly, I'm used to the ShVAKs on the La5FN, but I do believe they are located and fire from the same location in the La7.
Or maybe it's just the type of warhead the cannons fire. Maybe the ShVAK fires more HE rounds while the B20 fires more AP rounds (which for some reason seem to do more damage).
Heck, I dunno.
Anyway, my point is not to perk all of the 1944/late war monsters....
My point is that no matter what incentive you place on the lesser used aircraft in AH, you will never be able to fully intice people to fly them unless the net return is greater than the effort they put into it. Then it would be worth something to them, but since the net return is essentially zero until they kill another plane, then that isn't enough incentive to get people to fly them. And on top of all that, when the arena is over-run with 7 types of planes... all fast, turn pretty well and have monster armaments, then any incentive placed on the lesser used aircraft goes right out the window. "What? I can't even compete in this thing and I only got 3 perk points my last flight... screw this"
Believe it or not, that's the way it works for the majority of people.
If that weren't true, then the F4U-1C never would of peaked at 20+% usage.
-SW
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"What? I can't even compete in this thing"
Exactly why most of the arena are spitIXs, la7s and n1ks and p51d's and 190d9's and 109g10's (though the pony and d9's and 109g10s do require ACM to get kills in). Since those planes are extremely forgiving, very fast, very well armed and are free, everyone flies them. To "compete" you need to fly them too.. or have enough ego to face them in an inferior, slower, poorly armed, far less forgiving plane.
"and I only got 3 perk points my last flight... screw this""
and precisely why the early war planes arent used regardless of how many points they give you per kill.
Chances are, you'll get 6 kills in a n1k in an hour while it will take you 1 hour to get a kill in a 202. check your ENY out and you'll realize that a n1k is a far better choice to get perkies in that a 202, just because the sheer number of kills you can get in it and with minimum effort when compared to a 202. Especially in the furballs of AH. I got 4 kills defending a field in a hurricane 1 in about 30 minutes time. just HO'ing every damn la7 and n1k that came my way.Dying a lot too. Perkie gain? around 7 perks total. Compared to a spitIX sortie in a furball, get about 14 kills in 30 minutes.. and dying a lot too. Perkies gained: 16 total. The spitIX eny is far lower than the hurri1, and yet see which one gets more perks in the same time? ENY is not capable of population control.
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Be careful what you ask for... think about it a bit. What is the reason to ask for this, is it to make some of the earlier rides more competitive, to remove an unbalancing ability (see C-Hog for reference) or is it to increase the variety of planes (again refer to C-Hog) you see in the MA? I don't know that you can force any issue by perking more planes.
If you are perking the planes based on competitive issues then the only fair way to do it is to work from the least capable plane (which might be something like the Hurri I). That is going to set the bar awefully low for perking, things that are only average now, like the 190A5, are going to be uber to a Hurri I. If you pick another level then you are not making it any more fair in the MA, you are just re-setting the point at which you think "fair" should start. People still won't fly things that are sub-competitive if there is something that is "better" that they can fly for free. If you set the bar at the 190A5, no more people will likely fly the Hurr I even though it could be considered "more competitive" as compared to the standard. It'll still be completely out-classed.
If you are trying to remove an unbalacing ability of a specific plane, then that ability should be fairly unique and unfair. Name what that is in the group of P-51, La7, and 190D9.. I just don't get it. They can all run fast or catch you if you are slow? 2K of alt pretty much negates that advantage, I had a Hurri C catch my La7 the other day because he dove on me and caught me. None of them is overpowering in any way, the P-51 is the most capable of the lot, on average, but isn't the best down low. The La7 is the best down low but sucks even at mid alts. The 190 is a fine ride, good in both, but not the best in either. Sounds like they are all similar in ability, just tuned differently for different altitudes. You can't claim any one of them has a clear ability that is unbalancing since they all have a similar ability.
If you perk the planes based on "popularity" then you risk taking the following planes immediately out of circulation for newbie pilots (since they won't have many/any perks). The P-51D, 190D9, La7, SpitIX, SpitV and N1K. I honestly doubt it would seriously hinder their use by veterans since they tend to have perks built up and land their planes more often. The average newbie probably lands 1 sortie in 10, the veteran can probably land 8 in 10 if they wanted to. So, you end up with veterans almost un-effected while they get to club newbies in lesser planes. Honestly, the newbies need the powerful planes more than the veterans to make up for a lack of ACM skills.
Secondly, how would it affect the usage patterns in the MA to take these planes out of "free-ride" use. Well, you'd see alternate rides pop up that were just as popular (or more so) and you would have to ensure that these new rides didn't encounter the same problems. Look at the P-51B, for example, anyone who was a P-51D pilot would switch to the B, a lot of 190 and La7 drivers would also. The P51B offers EVERYTHING that the D model does except it comes with only 4 guns, not 6. Same speed, range, etc. It would HAVE to be perked at the same time or it would just become the "new D". Thus, there would be no free P-51's anymore. And how about the Spits... well, the XIV is a perk for sure, the IX is a perk then, the V is super popular (1% less than the La7) so it'd have to go and the Seafire is just a SpitV... that leaves only a Spit I. That would surely piss a lot of people off since the Spit I is not really a competitor. So, for two of the most famous and popular planes in the MA you don't have the P51 in any model and the Spit is what would generally be considered a target (imagine what even a Zeke would do to a Spit I... ouch). that's not to mention other planes, like the TYphoon and 109G10 that would now be even more popular because they pack a HUGE speed advantage over the test of the field, do you take them out too? I suspect you would be forced to since you removed all their contemporaries which had abilities to deal with them. A G10 would appear like an Me262 to a SpitI. Others, like the new hardended P-38 would pick up huge followings too and probably be destined for the same treatment. Did this increase variety, no, probably not, it most likely decreased it as more and more planes got the similar treatment.
I just don't see how it could work. In the CT the circumstances were different and light perking worked. Nobody had time to build up a tonne of perks because they were reset each week (which was a terrible idea for the casual player) and few newbie pilots even bothered to come in there because of the increased difficulty (short icons, no dar, etc). It also led to a lot of strato-dweeb'ism because people always wanted to protect their perk ride (if only 1-2 points even) by ensuring they were the highest thing around. It also required that heavy bombers be perked too... I bet lots of people wouldn't like their B-17's, Lancs, Ki's and B26's perked, leaving only the TBM and Ju88 (which have about a 2 second survival time against opposition).
I appreciate the frustration of some people about the hordes of only 7 types of planes in the MA (or whatever that number may happen to be) but it's pretty hard to force it to a larger group by knocking out those 7 and trying to even out 8 new ones (or more). You are far more likely to knock out these 7 and and end up with fewer. While the C-Hog perking worked wonders, it also made it a relatively rare plane in the MA so how would perking these others make that any different. It also meant that very few newbies ever fly the C-Hog, they save their points for Tempests, SpitXIV's, and Me262's.
-Soda
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AKSWulfe, Urchin,
The two different cannon options in the La7 are basically exactly the same in terms of ballistics ( I could summarize it by saying pathetic, but that's not the question that was asked :) ). I've flown both quite a bit, along with the La5 (which has the same 2 gun ShVAK package). Switching between 2 and 3 guns makes no aiming difference (same aim point, convergence, drop, etc). Their muzzle velocity is effecitvely the same, the big difference was in the weight savings on the Bo gun so they could fit 3 in the nose rather than 2. The 2 gun ShVAK has more ammo (200/gun) than the Bo (150/gun) so you have more firing time with the 2 gun version. The style of shooting is also very similar, you have to get close, very close, in order to has a reasonable chance of hitting with them unless you have a lot of experience. Then again, the same could be said for the 30mm tater gun on the G10.
The largest difference is in the snapshot ability of the 3 gun version. The 2 gun version has a limited snapshot (it can kill in 1 pass, but often things can slip through with little or no damage) while the 3 gun version tends to be more lethal on snapshots. That's the big difference. If you get cut in half on a high deflection, crossing shot by an La7 then chances are he has 3 guns.. if you hear some pings, take some damage but can fly out the other side, then he is flying 2 guns. That's not exactly a unique ability though, 4 hispanos on a Typhoon will rip you up in a crossing shot, as will only 2 hispanos on a Spit... or 8 50's on a P47, etc etc etc...
-Soda
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Ah, maybe that was it Soda. They seemed more lethal to me, and somewhat easier to aim... of course this could of been because of all the shells flying out of the nose.
I thought I read somewhere the B-20s had slightly better ballistics than the ShVAKs which is why they were "standardized" (only on the ones built at Yaroslavl- ones built at Moscow had the 2 ShVAK loadout) on La7s... could be mistaken though. I don't know much about Russian weapon's ballistics.
-SW
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what if you earned no perks for killing a 1940 plane in a 1944-45 plane? but that aircraft cost you 1 or 2 perks to fly every flight?
wouldnt this encourage the use of early aircraft in order to supliment those costly late war rides? you would still have to face 1944-45 planes in oyur late war ride and you would lose perks.where as the guy flying spit1s has nothing to lose engaging the late war planes.
the point is incentive and challenge.
any game that loses challenge or becomes repetative becomes dull.
Flying the BOB setup in the CT only served to remind me theres so many other 'types' of flying than this endless high speed bnz stuff.
I really think that if each tour the most over used aircraft got penalised by then coting 1 or 2 perks for the next tour would at least see less use of that particular aircraft for a while.even if you did this for the top 3 each tour it would make a difference.
The only guys i see complaining here are veterans that even a 1-10 perk penalty wouldnt affect anyhow!
Im willing to pay a cost for the dora that i like to fly.I have no problem with it.What i have got a problem with is being almost forced to fly it in order to compete with all the other late war planes.
If any of you guys flew the BOB setup you must surely have realised the fights were damn fun if not ONLY because they lasted longer!
Tac you are against this but you even posted the other day that you enjoyed the longer fights you encountered in the TA did you not?(think it was you or maybe yeager)
All these objections make no sense to me. Its not like they are asking you to pay 60 perks all of a sudden for a plane you have had free for years.we are talking low costs (less than 5 or 10 perks). prices that make the free and uncareing use of them have a penalty.
if we perked the la7or nik,spit9(overuse not performance) dora or p51 etc etc for 2 or 3 (maybe 4 perks in some cases) you wouldnt see people HO'ing in them like morons.
NO they would take a free plane for that.AND THEN for a few weeks or a tour or two we would see less of them.
As soon as their USE dropped to average the perk cost drops to zero again and away you go.
this isnt stopping anyone from flying them.(well apart from 2 weekers) It is however encouraging the use of other planes that cost nothing to fly.Plus its making an arena that is hopefully populated with more of the other types we dont see much use of at the moment.
You guys talk like everything has to be set in stone! I thought the damn perk system was going to be dynamic and fluctuate according to use.Not just put the most desireable planes up on a shelf where even picking them up to play with means severe loss if you drop em.
It sucks if you ask me.Its why evrytime i go in MA i go for one reason.A quick blast in the late war planes because nothing else stands a chance.I soon miss the more drawn out fights from CT or Scenarios or snap shots or TODs'. But then im the only one who does right?
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If the "perk mafia" liked the way it was in the CT so much, why aren't they spamming the CT board with this thread instead of trying to force their ideas upon all the rest of us? The CT is there people, and the CT staff DOES listen. You can have what you want WITHOUT destroying the game for people such as myself.
Cheap perks, all late-war planes perked, all that junk you "perk mafia" people want....the CT staff is willing to do it all.
J_A_B
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JAB your 'perk mafia' line is as dumb as all the other nicknames people seem to take great pleasure in spouting.
however yours just isnt catchy or funny enough :D nice try though ;)
doesnt matter how many times you repeat it its not getting any funnier.
oh and btw jab according to your stats a cost of 2 or 3 perks wouldnt stop YOU flying it.you earn enough in it to fly it forever at that price.Others who use the p51 for suicide runs or just fly it because its quick and have little skill in it wouldnt though.
In the case of the spit and nik and LA7 though , who EVEN YOU must agree are getting so common as to be making the variety of 'differnt types' of encounters almost obsolete.
Have YOU noticed how many spit drivers use them to constantly HO you? even when you've flown well to actually get around on their 6?
well if they cost those guys a few perks how long before they chose something else? or even ran out of perks and were forced to fly something else for a WHILE.
then as the 'overall' use of the model decreased they could return to the old free price point.(spit fans and vets wont be bothered by the measily cost)
IN THE MEAN TIME for a tour or two we would all fight some different opponents.
this isnt about taking away your favourite ride at all.You seem to be locked in a fantasy world of perceived persecution.get over it.or do you want your cake and eat it forever?
rmember i am willing to have my favoured late war ride(dora) perked also even though you dont see half as many of them as the p51s.whats the big sacrifice here?????
why dont me and you fight in 190a5s and p51b's for a tour? would it be so bad?
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From Tac:
Exactly why most of the arena are spitIXs, la7s and n1ks and p51d's and d9's and 109g10's although the pony and d9's and 109g10s do require ACM to get kills in).
Others as well mention these two planes as being ranked up there as the most used planes. I myself rarely see them (although I do fly the d9 about 50% of the time), so I checked the tour 25 FvF stats to find out the true ranks.
Most kills to least:
1. Spitfire Mk IX
2. N1K2
3. P-51D
4. La-7
5. SpitV
6. P-38L
7. F6F-5
8. Typhoon IB
9. Fw 190D-9
10. F4U-1D
11. Bf 109G-10
Why do these planes get mentioned when the p38 and f6f and typhoon don't?
Might be the LW pilots are sooo good, it feels like you are surrounded by them. :D
F.
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furious its because there are less fans of those aircraft but they are on par in performance. So I personally wouldnt object to them recieving similar perking to allied types of the same performance (P51D being the doras closest match imo)
lets be fair to the poor ol allied silver sleeves eh? :D
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Thanks for checking my stats Hazed.....I don't think I've ever looked at 'em. At least then if you guys DO get your way hopefully I won't be affected too badly (although I'll still resist yas). :)
As for variety.....That's a matter of opinion. Personally I feel there is a LOT of variety in AH. Every time I fly, I can count on seeing plenty of Spits, LA7's, N1K2's, P-51's, P-38's, 190's, 109's, Typhoons, B-17's/LANC's, and a fair number of F6F's and F4U's if there's a carrier around. Even in my flight earlier today, I encountered several P-47's, Me-110's, a couple of 205's and even several AR-234 jets. Add Hurricanes and Zeros to that list if I'm attacking a base somewhere. I see a perkplane or two on virtually every flight I make; sure they're not common as dirt but they ARE being used. Granted some planes are more numerous than others, but I fail to see where any individual plane is overrunning the MA.
In other words, I'm fairly satisfied with the current planeset/perkset. I've got nothing against those who would like change, but really, wouldn't it be best for everyone if those who want something different asked for these changes to be placed in the CT or some other completely new arena? Why is there a need to exclude people?
J_A_B
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hazed said:
oh and btw jab according to your stats a cost of 2 or 3 perks wouldnt stop YOU flying it.you earn enough in it to fly it forever at that price.Others who use the p51 for suicide runs or just fly it because its quick and have little skill in it wouldnt though.
LOL! I find it hard to believe you are worried about what a suicide runner is flying.
I also find it hard to believe that you think its OK to keep it so only the better pilots can fly a certain plan continuously. That's elitist to say the least.
AKDejaVu
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Hazed also said:
Have YOU noticed how many spit drivers use them to constantly HO you? even when you've flown well to actually get around on their 6?
ROTFLMAO! Stop it hazed! you're killing me here!
AKDejaVu
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I can see your point here JAB and i have indeed been using the CT more and more. But its not always set up to my taste and i dont think i should have to fight there all the time and leave the MA to furballers etc.
Some days i like a furball, sometimes i feel like an axis allies set up.Other times i feel like flying doras and again other times i like the huge numbers for large missions in the MA.I try to get as much variety as i can to stop from becoming burned out as i did before in AH and I left.
you are right that variety is sometimes found in the MA. I too find somedays i fly into totally new encounters, especially after a new planeset release but all too often its another spit or nik fight.
the point is here is that anyone who is a real fan of any plane that gets the 'perk surcharge' will be able to fly it all the time if they are capable of getting roughly 2 kills per flight or not constantly dieing.
If in all these months and months of flying them they have accumilated huge stocks of perks they will certainly help pay for them for quite a while.If they continue to use them unsparingly they will continue to cost and gradually they will lose perks as the price slowly creeps up.
Those that dive into fights just to get the odd kill before they die or think nothing of HO'ing will soon find them too costly to use for this purpose.They will either switch to another model (spit9 to spit 5 say) or they may try something new.Who knows maybe they will like the new choice? what we will see is less spit9 more spit5.then the spit5 gets over used they switch to say f6f or la5s or 190? by this time the spit9 goes down in price and many will return to it(including any newbies that couldnt afford them for a tour or two). What we 'all' will get from this is a fluctuating 'popular' aircraft.(varied fights, at least from tour to tour).
with this system we could even lower the cost of the super planes(helping newbies that want to try them out). If they start to become a problem they will get expensive again and so will go back to a price that keeps them at an acceptable level.
certain models that are obviously too good to ever be free or cheap like the me262 wont receive this treatment of course but at least we should be allowed to see just how many would really fly them.I dont ever fly tempests or f4u-4s because i dont want to lose 60 perks (out of the 300 or so i seem to average in my fighter perks) whilst i learn their good and bad points.
I feel this is a huge waste of the aircrafts we have.I mean do we really want to only see them once in a blue moon?
ah well i guess ive made my veiws clear enough.Let me just say fd ski for doing these sums and opening the debate with a bit of evidence for others to look at.
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Originally posted by Wotan
what eskimo? who told you this?
Air points = PlaneDamageScore + KillScore /
KillScore =
((AirKillsThisSortie * 1.0) + (AirAssistsThisSortie * 0.25) +
(GroundKillsThisSortie * 1.0) + (GroundAssistsThisSortie * 0.25) * DeathMult) +
TotalTourKillScore
TotalDamage =
(DamagePointsScoredOnObjectsTh isSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourDamagePointsScoredOn Objects +
(DestroyedPointsScoredOnObject sThisSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourDestroyedPointsScore dOnObjects
Death Multipliers
Landed 1.0
Discoed 0.25
Bailed .5
Ditched .4
Captured
Killed 0.25
Crashed 0.25
Eny values to my knowledge have nothing at all to do with air points?
You have a source?
Wotan,
I thought that's how it works...?
I am about to log on for the first time this tour so my scores are all 0. I'll write down what happens and check the score, then post what I find.
eskimo
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The ENY values do not currently do anything to score.
You can fly any plane you want and you'll get the same score. Wotan got those figures from the Scoring pages in the help area. The ENY values and OBJ values were invented with the perk system and are used exclusively for the perk system.
-SW
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Great Discussion!
Nice job on crunching those numbers....I promised I would never do math in public so thats Way above my level.
Although I have been flying AH for only 3 months now Ill tell you my 2 cents and since this is the BBS you Have to read it....lol....
Keep it the way it is.....a good rule of leadership is that you divide things into thirds....on the one hand 1/3 of the people will love your decisions....1/3 will hate your decisions....and 1/3 will be in the middle......Dont change things that only matter to the pissed off 1/3.....
I am in the middle third to top third....
Like perks....dont get a whole lot so when I get a bunch I may take up that 262 for kicks.
Like the hurricane.....Plane is a blast to fly and you know what it can hold its own with other planes....im not the best and my score certainly reflects that but thats the first plane I was getting 3kill runs in consistently....now flying P38 but thats a whole diff story.
HTC....keep the perks the way they are......for us guys that dont get tons o perks each flight it makes us earn our keep to try one of them out. You know something to shoot for....
my 2.5 cents worth....
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
The ENY values do not currently do anything to score.
You can fly any plane you want and you'll get the same score. Wotan got those figures from the Scoring pages in the help area. The ENY values and OBJ values were invented with the perk system and are used exclusively for the perk system.
-SW
True.
I was totaly off.
0osik and I just did some testing in the dueling arena.
We could find no trend in how kill points are scored, but we did find out that ENY value has nothing to do with it.
eskimo
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
So using k/d is presumably a way to argue that a plane should or should not be perked?
In this case, I'll bet you another box of donuts that the P51D, while maintaining only a 1:1k/d at the moment, could and would hold a much higher k/d if it weren't for the abundant of newbies flying them. There are less newbies that fly other planes, the 190A8 for example, has close to a 2.0k/d... so does this mean it's twice as capable as the P51D? of course not, it means less newbies fly it because it's harder. It's got 4 cannons and is fast, but it's a bear to handle.
-SW
The 190A8 is much easier to handle than the mustang, lots of mustang deaths are from spins. Even a good mustang pilot will probably not get as many kills as a good 190A8 pilot because of the cannons. The A8 normally has a good K/D because it is a killer, even if it can't run away quite as good as the mustang.
Over the long run, most plane's K/Ds average out the skill factor. I agree the P-51D is an exception, because it attracts so many newbies and is difficult for them.
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hazed et all... my point is simply this. I believe that everyone should have as much choice as the planeset allows. I believe that you should be able to fly a dora or a pee 51 or a 262 any time you like. I do not believe however that you should be able to fly it aginst spit ones, 109e's and p40's. I don't even belive you should fly it against spit 5's or -1A's or lag5's or a6m5's unless they want to.
The perk system can never make this happen. An RPS can't let everyone fly every plane. Seperate arenas don't work. The "area" arena is the only solution that I can see.
Perhaps for now... an early war area with the rest of the planes using the idiotic perk system till we have enough for say three areas?
lazs
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Quote by Montezuma;
The 190A8 is much easier to handle than the mustang
Wow, what are you smoking because I should get some. The 190A8 is an armed dumptruck as compared to the P-51. The P-51 handles FAR better in all respects other than roll-rate. You can snaproll a 190A8 into the ground just as easy, if not more so, than a P-51. The 190A8 also is terribly heavy when packing the big gun packages, it tends to want to pancake out when you try and pull up at higher speeds near the ground. It's no contest though, the P-51 is superior in almost every important way. Equal pilots in both the 190A8 can't dictate the fight in any way and it's only a matter of time before the P-51 eats it alive.
I've flown a lot of 190A8 and some P-51. I use the 190A8 as a ground attack plane because I like strafing stuff on the ground with the bug guns. To say it is better than a P-51 though is incorrect. It's only hope against a P-51 is to force an HO (which the P-51 can typically avoid). The P-51 does get a lot of rookie pilots though, that's why it's K/D ratio suffers.
-Soda
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Originally posted by Soda
Quote by Montezuma;
Wow, what are you smoking because I should get some. The 190A8 is an armed dumptruck as compared to the P-51. The P-51 handles FAR better in all respects other than roll-rate. You can snaproll a 190A8 into the ground just as easy, if not more so, than a P-51. The 190A8 also is terribly heavy when packing the big gun packages, it tends to want to pancake out when you try and pull up at higher speeds near the ground. It's no contest though, the P-51 is superior in almost every important way. Equal pilots in both the 190A8 can't dictate the fight in any way and it's only a matter of time before the P-51 eats it alive
-Soda
Relative to other planes, they are both dumptrucks. But the 190A8 has a very easy stall and spin compared to the mustang. Have you ever gotten into a spin at altitude that you couldn't get out of in a 190A8?
In a duel between the two I would expect the mustang to win, but in the MA the 190A8 should be able to get more kills than the mustang on each sortie.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
In other words, I'm fairly satisfied with the current planeset/perkset. I've got nothing against those who would like change, but really, wouldn't it be best for everyone if those who want something different asked for these changes to be placed in the CT or some other completely new arena? Why is there a need to exclude people?
J_A_B
I'm also quite happy with the way HTC runs things at the moment. It works quite well. I'm not going to get into the rest of the pointless arguing. :)
But, thanks for the great info FD Ski! It is very interesting to know how the planes stack up based on ENY vs. kills and such. Very nice.
Oh, and one more thing I'd like to point out. Any plane that can fullfil a Jabo type roll effectively will have much higher usage simply for that multi-role capability. Due to the Ami planes being reallly good at attack roles generally, it does tend to skew the usage numbers for those fighters, especially for planes like the Jug.
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That's simply not true Montezuma.
If an AI pilot was flying them, then yes, a 190A8 could get more kills.... vulching. While it may have a superior gun package, that's all it's got except for roll rate.
I have yet to be able to drop a notch or two of flaps in a turn to get an extra boost to bring my guns in targets in the A8... but I can do that at will with the P51D and B.
You never get into an unrecoverable spin in the A8 because the entire flight you are pretty much in an uncontrollable trash truck with wings. Your only hope is to fly straight and pray you don't have to turn, because when you do, you won't turn very fast.. if you try to force it to, you'll be upside down with tracers flying around you before you know it.
I can get the same # of kills in a P51B as in a 190A8, that's only 4x .50s. How in the world can someone not get more kills in the P51D than the 190A8 if they fly it smart?
If we throw pilots into the situation, then there's no contest the P51D can return home with more kills so long as a really good pilot is behind the stick. Same with the 190A8.
But if you stick a newbie in a 190A8, and then stick him in a P51D... he'll stay with the P51D because it's much easier to handle and dropping a notch of flaps will remedy any wing snap stalls.
-SW
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Relative to other planes, they are both dumptrucks
Bull.
The P-51 is a very good turner, especially at high speeds, but even at lower speeds it is good. That's not even taking into account the maneuvering flaps that it has that make the 200-350mph range even that much better. Sustained turn in a stall fight at 150mph though it isn't that great. Still, it's FAR better than a 190A8 at any speed. The 190A8 is far easier to snap stall too, I've never done that in a P-51.
If you are comparing the P-51 to the Spit or N1K in a stall speed fight, then yes, it isn't a great turner. Then again, if you are fighting Spits and N1Ks in a P-51 at stall speeds then you've fallen into the trap and you'd P-51 will soon be shot out from under your butt.
Enough on this topic though, the thread was about perks/OBJ values...... if we wanna discuss 190A8 vs P-51 then start a new thread.
-Soda
The Assassins