Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs1 on August 01, 2001, 10:42:00 AM
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taken from another thread, I said..
what i have seen called "furballs" in AH are... any fite
that has more than 2 or so planes in it. certainly a fite with eight planes is considered a
furball and any with 10 or more is considered a HUGE furball. ac tactics asside (they came
into play very seldom or in the most rudimentary ways in WWII)... fites in WWII were of
the 4 to 200 plane variety. The WWII pilots were mindless furballers by dint of simply
flying in finger fours against other squads... The "fog of war" and the "i never even seen
him" were because of the melees (furballs) not.... in spite of em.
Now of course, if you guys can show me where flying lone wolf hunter was a common WWII
tactic...or that even 1 vs 1 fites were more common than "furballs"...
ironicly... the furballers in AH, who care not at all (in general) about "recreating" WWII air
combat, are the ones who are most doing so. The "fog of war" they create is exactly the
same as the real "fog of war" (and just as exciting in a virtual way). The lone wolf and
"realism" crowd would rather recreate a "fog of war" that never existed or did so in
microcosm with maybe a plane now and then being seperated from the melee for whatever
reason.
if you make claim to flying realisticly or "historicly" in AH then.... Unless you are a furballer
you are a pretentious, devious blowhard who is..... wrong.
I would add that ther MA is about having fun. No matter how you cut it... people in the ma vote with their feet.. they head for the nearest and bigest furball and stay there till someone gets pissy and makes it impossible for one side or the other to take off. Conversly, "strat" and "realism" buffs have to us a combination of force and whining to get people to fly their way...
I would be happy to let em have another arena to "fix" but believe that it would be deserted. Not only that but the strat/realism crowd is not only small but fragmented.... unlike noble furballers they have a lot of spare time and use that to envision more and more anal, complex and contradictory elements that they are sure will highlight their particular "talent", mostly, at the expense of fellow "realism/strat" aficianado's.
any change that makes it harder to find a fite or for a large fite to exist... is anti fun and anti realism... one might even say... anti American...
lazs
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Preach on, Brother Laz!
(un-American? WTF does that mean? Texan?)
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I agree with some of what you say lazs.. especially the part about lone-wolfing.
What I don't agree with is your assertion that furballing was more historical.
You want to use the term historical? You throw in long tedious flights just waiting for something to encroach your airfield. You throw in some 1000lb bombs and start looking for trains or ground units. You have someone in charge of you telling you exactly what to do. That's historical.
Last I checked, the AH version of furballing didn't even remotely fit into this. I don't believe instant respawning and fights that were completely below 5k are anything near historical.
But they sure are fun. And that should be the main concern in the MA. I'd promote a furball over lone-wolsquealing any day.
AKDejaVu
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For
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deja... we agree. I too realize that the vast majority of WWII combat was.... no combat at all.
All of us realize that AH is compressed to eliminate much of this useless and boring part. My contention is that WHEN THERE IS COMBAT.. that furballing best recreates what WWII air combat was like. The possible exception being that the alt is low and there aren't enough planes involved... still, it is at least twice as "realistic" and "historical" as whatever is in second place.
lazs
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I agree with you fellas that we some kinda tower only radar.
<g,d,r!>
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OK.. if your only talking about combat situations... then nothing is really more "historical" than anything else.
The fog of war aspect is there... but this is found in any aspect of the game. Will there be a fighter to meet your bomber over a base? Will you spot him in time? That is realistic too.
What is totally unrealistic about furballs is that they go on and on forever without really surving any purpose. Historically.. that did not happen. Even the mass engagements were over relatively quick. And I wonder how many of those big engagements involved fighting until the last plane is down.
They were also made up of squads going against other squads. That's groups of pilots that have trained together. It is completely possible to be a lone-wolf pilot inside of a furball.
I dunno... I think furballs are fun. I just don't see very much about them to call historical.
AKDejaVu
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You have the cart before the horse lazs.
Furballing was the result of a STRATEGIC mission. A bunch of bombers and escorts flew deep into Germany and a flight of 190's intercepted them resulting in a furball.
A group of heavy P47's went on a jabo mission into northern France and resulted in a low level furball.
Furballs in AH are fun and strat goal oriented missions are jsut as much fun. BTW what was your point?
:confused: :confused:
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deja.. i believe that furballs serve the same purpose in AH that they did in the war... you get to shoot down enemy planes. Most guys lost their wingman in those melees, forget about squad! at the heart of it a fighter pilot was more of an individual than any other guy who fought in WWII and especially in the melee.. The actual melee or furball is very historical. it does last a long time but some did. some in AH are over in less than a minute. what we see is new furballs happening right as the old one is over. nothing wrong with that tho... just more fun than WWII.
skernsk... there are no "historical" or strategic missions in AH that have any semblance of history. Not in the flights nor in the targets. My point is that furballs or melees are not only fun but contrary to a lot of the bull being tossed around, they are a lot more "historical" so far as air combat goes, than whatever is in second place. I understand that you feel missions are fun (don't understand why, however).... I would not try to stop you but... any change in the MA that hurts furballs is hurting "realism" so far as air combat is concerned. "fun" is a matter of opinion but looking at the MA it is easy to see what most people find to be fun. Put two fields close together and don't make it impossible for fighters to come up at either one of em and you will see what most guys think is fun in the MA...
So tell me... what's in second place?
Yes hblair we need more and better dar, in order to preserve the realism that is furball. without it we would be adrift... spread out and blind... the holy furball lost in a miasma of lone wolf streak pansies and "capture the flag" mission types who would wander off to other sims once they realized that they were getting what they wanted and more bored than ever. livestock would cease to be fertile.. people would fly LW planes and p51's and any of a number of horrible things would happen. laughter would end. crops would die. it's just not worth taking the chance hblair.
lazs
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deja said.. "What is totally unrealistic about furballs is that they go on and on forever without really
surving any purpose. Historically.. that did not happen. Even the mass engagements were
over relatively quick. And I wonder how many of those big engagements involved fighting
until the last plane is down."
of course you are correct but are these not very small sins on reality when compared to the whopper, mortal go to hell, go directly to hell do not pass go, sin(s) that is field capture in AH??? I mean... how many fields were captured in WWII in anything like this manner or, to compare apples to apples.... the time frame that we have in AH. not to mention respawn etc. if field capture is in second place realism wise it is a very distant second.
thing is... far as realism goes.. I only care about FM's, damage models and gunnery. I just find it ironic is all.
lazs
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lazs, is your original post/point just about the semantics of "historical", "realistic", and/or "correct"??
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Furballing sucks and is boring requireing no skill or prethought just dumb caveman with club behavior very boring to be in but I like zipping through but even that gets boring in fact the whole damned thing gets pretty boring almost as much as reading these damned fester and lazs posts but hey what the hell have fun.
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actualy nifty, it's about irony and hypocricy.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
actualy nifty, it's about irony and hypocricy.
lazs
then your post made perfect sense, to me at least. I just wanted to make sure that's where you were coming from. :)
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You know Lazs, the more they push for the persistant war environment (no doubt spawned by reading about WWIIOl), the more I am realising how much I am in agreeance with you in regards to many issues that you bring up.
This certainly can not be a good thing. ;)
-SW
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for either of us sw... but.. i think we both realize the the main issue... having the ma be a fun place where people can find a fite quickly vs some sort of phony history reenactment, is very important.
Hornet has very eloquently stated what I believe are ours and the majority of players opinions about the MA in his thread.
when he says it is is less... uh... "abrasive" than when either of us do tho.
lazs
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Agreed Lazs. I'll see you in the more entertaing MA. :)
-SW
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of course you are correct but are these not very small sins on reality when compared to the whopper, mortal go to hell, go directly to hell do not pass go, sin(s) that is field capture in AH???
Not really lazs. You set your priorities different.
The idea behind field captures is considerably more historical than the idea behind mindless respawning to hop back into a furball. The capture method is considerably gamey.. but we aren't playing with entire armies, navies and air forces at our command. Things have to be done within the constraints of the game.
Fighter Vs Fighter is a side effect of the air war lazs.... not the purpose.<edit>this is refering to history.. not the MA</edit>
AKDejaVu
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]
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Originally posted by lazs1:
having the ma be a fun place where people can find a fite quickly vs some sort of phony history reenactment, is very important
I agree minus the word "phony." :p Personally, I enjoy the historical re-enactments, phony or not. However, I realize that not everyone does, so the elements of those scenarios (limited icon and dar settings for example) have little to no place in the MA. If I want to roll from the hangar, fly without inflight dar, fight with my survival in mind first and foremost, I can do that right now in the MA without hurting another person's playstyle. At that point, I'm having fun and you're having fun. When the game mechanics force you into that style, neither of us have fun, because you don't pay to play, and I don't have you to shoot at (missing of course, then having you kill me 30 seconds later!)
btw, I don't roll from the hangar in the MA. ;)
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FWIW, AH has definately become the place of very large and mundane furballs and mindless, pointless pure comic dweebery. Most casual gamers today would call it fun. HTC has striven to attract these causual gamers (aka AW cliental, no disrespect intended) and appears to have succeeded quite nicely.
Like I told one of my squaddies last night, until something more honest comes along, this is probably all we are going to get.
Perhaps soon HTC can finally feel confident enough to provide the more demanding simulation consumer something else besides the game boy MA that lazs1 and his brothers seem to insist is somehow better for the rest of us.
You know, sometimes I wonder if A.I. was really all that bad. Just depends on the crowd you run with I guess.....
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Yeah Yeager but it should be pretty obvious by now that the MA is never going to be all things to all people. But that's not too bad... because there is a good and growing series of historical events that sound like the perfect thing fer ya.
I notice however that you and the 13th haven't even signed up for the Tour of Duty series. Mmmm? It really is about time for certain "historical realism" proponents to start putting their money where their mouth is and demonstrate that there really *is* a desire for an HA or anything else, rather than continue to idly wail about how they'd like to see the MA conform to their particular standards. It means nothing.
Put up or shaddup. :D
We'll see you boys next Friday?
[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]
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Nash,
It is true that events are the spice of this game. Only sad thing about them is that they occur only at certain times. For many pilots it is not possible to make that kind of dedication in rearranging RL schedules. E.g. for Europeans the ToD happen very late at night. I'd love to be there, but 5 am and sleeping kid in the next room just make it impossible.
Scenarios can never be a sufficient replacement for a HA where one could log on anytime :(
Why could we not get a separate furball arena without buffs, gvs, field captures etc. Only fighters and maybe just 2 sides and shorter distances to fly between bases and indestructable ack on fields. That arena could have separate fighter stats and scores.
Then MA could be developed further towards HA with RPS etc. There could still be some furballs happening in such setting as well :)
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I appreciate that circumstances may prevent certain people from participating. But Yeag and crew are a 13 member North American squad. Zero presence.
The TOD *will* be expanded shortly to allow for Eurpoeans to fly in it. And currently there are Snapshots and Check 6's that run every weekend that are time zone friendly to both sides of the pond. If the banter on this BBS is an indication of anything, then it's a mystery to me why these aren't better attended.
Until they are, it's a clearer indication to me of the status of things than any random MA poll.
[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]
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Originally posted by BlauK:
Then MA could be developed further towards HA with RPS etc. There could still be some furballs happening in such setting as well :)
You don't fully understand the consequences surrounding a permanent HA arena with an RPS system that replaced the MA.
Read AGW. Right now people whine about the N1K2, La7, P51D, 190D9, F4U-1C and Spits..
The only thing that will change is what people are whining about.
Uneven sides. One side has better planes for a week or two, and further disrupts the team balances. We already have percieved conspiracy to dumb down LuftWaffe planes while beefing up Allied planes. Although it strikes me as strange that the Japanese and Italian, both axis, aircraft are not dumbed down like the LuftWaffe planes are claimed to be.
Anyways, a permanent arena like they got over at WB... well you can see the problems that accompany it. Why not leave well enough alone?
Nash is right about one thing though, of all the people that are up in arms about an HA and an arena based around historical connotations without a lick of historical representation other than the aircraft dogfighting each other are from air forces that historically fought one another during the historical World War II in which many things are now historic and in museums... I have yet to see a lot of these guy's faces in ANY event.
Actions speak louder than words, and so far HT sees no need for an HA when we have a 3 hour event on Sundays that is essentially setup as an HA and only 20 to 30 people show up for it....
-SW
[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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"Perhaps soon HTC can finally feel confident enough to provide the more demanding simulation consumer something else besides the game boy MA that lazs1 and his brothers seem to insist is somehow better for the rest of us"
Pretentios, moi?
Offense taken, Yeager.
Fact is that you guys whine and whine and whine, yet don't turn up for events.
Of course, the event organisers also have their heads stuck in the sand....because they don't seem to realise there *is* a yearning for some thing they seem unwilling or unable to deliver.
Perhaps it's the elitist attitude that say "only we know what's good for the players".
Perhaps some _player led_ events would satisfy more people, of all types.
I know I've got a list of things *I'd* like to promote, and I realy don't understand why the CM's have such an exclusive attitude. Afterall, it's the events arena I want to use for *my* version of AH, I've no wishes to enforce it on MA customers, who in the main want to log on for an action fix.
Perhaps we need to start there.
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Seeker, CMs are people that HTC can trust to run the server. They need to give people priveledges to run it. They can't very well let every person have priveledges to run the server. That would be like giving every user at a business Domain Admin rights on the server network.
It's stupid.
If you have event ideas, send them to the CMs. They are open to ideas and have stated this repeatedly.
-SW
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I understand what you're saying, SW, but I just don't think the current system is proving satisfactory.
Seeing as you guys love to turn AH into WB, I'd like to inject a little AW too (with Yeager's permission, of course).
We had the same problem in AW. Our answer was to have our verion of a CM (they were called AWAR, and I was one once, sniff) standing by in the arena to pull the levers and switches, and the event organiser (whom we called, confusingly enough, a CM) called the shots.
The result is that only those with the correct 'nanas ever got to so much look at a server script, and the players got the events they wanted (and at times, deserved!).
Still, that's only one way of doing it.
As far as the CM staff having an open mind, I'm afraid I don't agree; they've thier own agenda, same as everyone else, and it's my beleif that this is begining to be a problem
I've been contacted by two CM's independantly of each other in the last month offering to put on some events I've thought up (or stolen the idea for), but each time the effort just fades away. It's the same each time: "That sounds good, I'll get back to you"..and they don't.
I've even been told that the idea's been passed round the CM comitee (or what ever it's called) and was met with a "lukewarm" reception. You know what? I don't care about *their* judgement, it's not them the event's for!
I honestly can't see why there is such resistance to players planning their events (note, I said planning, not execute). It's not as if the SEA is in overwhelming demand on a nightly basis. I want it for *one* night a month, from around 21:00 to 23:59 CET. How does that conflict with what they've currently scheduled?
Oh well, time for my meds.....(lights a big one)
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Seeker, I hear you. They are limited in their abilities and how many events they can run at once.
Perhaps a better way to get your events jump started would be to place your idea here in the AH Gen Discussion and get as many player's feedback as possible. Try to get as many player's to agree upon and like your idea/event.
There is no way the CM team can deny that without risking losing their priveledges. There's no way a group of paying customers will stand idly by when they all agree on something and a group of people given comp accounts decide that the player's really don't want that, they want something else that the CMs will offer.
Just get a lot of player's interested, maybe that's what you need.
-SW
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yeager take the stick outta your ass... You are proving my whole point. How can you look down on furballers in this ... game?
I would really like for you to explain how what you do or even think you want to do, takes any more "skill" than furballing. I believe that I have shown that furballing is at least as realistic and "historic" as any other aspect of AH so... You are just coming off as a pretentious, elitiest, phony blowhard.
You don't have to participate in the furballs in AH... No, what you want tis to make it impossible for them to happen in the (of all things) MA so that people are forced to fly in a manner you deem more fun and better suited to your skills... Not, more "realistic" or "skilled". furballers don't "force' anyone. build a furball and they will come.
You must be getting old and slow and crabby... I remmember when you were more fun and less...
lazs
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My observation here is that furballs, while occuring historically, always were spiced by interests other than destroying fighters. Escorts wanted to keep interceptors tied up and away from the escortees, interceptors wanted to escape the escorts to attack the escortees. Fighter sweeps wanted to exhaust the fighters, forcing them to be resupplying on the ground rather than being up in the air causing trouble rather on. Usually one side had a fuel/position advantage while the other side was looking to get out and go home as fast as possible. Rarely would fighters just continue turning and burning, trying to rack up kills for the purpose of racking up kills alone. This of course changed the way they were flown... and shortened them. No neverending furballs fuelled by A/C respawning mere miles away. As for fun... I think all, furball fans and strat fans alike, would be thrilled if a method could be found to provide more than individual victories in the furballs. No, I don't have the hows. But to throw the whole idea out the window as "not wanted", well, that's daft IMO.
Challenges? "Four Spit XIV will be flying a sweep shortly. Get together an opposiong force and get in touch and we will tell you our route! Try to stop us!" Arranged duels WWI-style. :)
I say, keep looking for a compromise. If you want to give up, go all out and demand the arena with a 10x10 mile map with two uncapturable fields 5 nm apart.
Cheers,
/ft, thinking aloud
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Actualy, although it seems common sense that furballs had to have a primary cause (such as interdiction or CAS etc), I'm fairly sure that wasn't always the case.
There's a strong historical argument that states the 8th. airforce buffs were used explicitly to draw up the LW into furballs so the Little friends could dispatch them; the primary target of the raid being in fact of secondary importance to clearing the skies of the luftwaffe prior to D day.
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if you make claim to flying realisticly or "historicly" in AH then.... Unless you are a furballer
you are a pretentious, devious blowhard who is..... wrong.
There is something called "abstraction". We put some of the facts and truths constituting a certain phenomenon and abstract it into simple form best suited to explaination of how that phenomenon came to pass.
This is natural with all cases of perhaps most everything we try to analyze. To put it in the way you have quoted is like saying:
"AH is nowhere near realistic since the non-linear aspects of chaotic phenomena of air turbulence is not modeled within"
We take whatever we can into our perception of reality. For some, the "funness" of reality needs to be more accurate and historically coordinated. For others, just plain ol' "fly and fight", just using a certain amount of reality itself is fun enough to suit them.
Personally, I am a Strato, and I radically disagree with lazs' idea of what the MA should be, but I don't think I proclaim his idea as something "WRONG".. just different. And I wholeheartedly expect the same kind of respect of diversity to those who disagree with me.
Personally, I still believe (naively and idealistically I admit.. :) ) the differences between the two factors of reality and fun is not at all destined to mutually clash. I hope to believe we are just going through painstaking process of mixing up our mutual tastes and ideas, and from that I believe something even better would emerge from MA.
As a "Strato", I believe there is someway we can make the strategic and 'historic', 'realistic' aspect of this game fun for every "Quaker" there is. So let's not lose our open-mindedness.
Cheers. :D
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I like donuts.
Cobra
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Originally posted by BlauK:
Why could we not get a separate furball arena without buffs, gvs, field captures etc. Only fighters and maybe just 2 sides and shorter distances to fly between bases and indestructable ack on fields. That arena could have separate fighter stats and scores.
:)
There is a place for this in the dueling arena. It has almost everything you ask for. It has three sides, a short trip, but no scores.
Oh hey... it's empty.
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I play for fun
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V
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Thats the bottom line
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S!
Historical 'Furballs' were much more structured than is being suggested here. Especially in the European Theater during the Battle of Britain and the Battle of Germany.
Aircraft operated in Squadrons and Flights, and attacked as those formations. The science of airfighting circa 1940-45 was in the bringing to bear of maximum firepower against an opponent. You didn't dive with one aircraft on an opponent, a flight, or a whole Squadron dived. Which meant that the intended targets had to evade not one or two sets of guns but 4, 12 or 18. The smallest normal formation was a pair.
The Germans originated the technique of the Rotte and Schwarm, as well as the formation attack, and they practiced it throughout the war, albeit with less efficiency in '44 and '45.
If you read the accounts of the British pilots who faced them in '41 and '42 when they were at the peak of their efficiency you can see how they fought:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(From 38 victory Ace Johnnie Johnson's "Wing Leader" The 'Dogsbody' referred to is Douglas Bader's code name)
"Dogsbody from Smith. 109's above. Six o'clock. About twenty five or thirty."
"Well done. Watch em and tell me when to break."
I can see them. High in the sun, and their prescence only betrayed by the reflected sparkle from highly polished windscreens and cockpit covers.
"They're coming down, Dogsbody. Break Left." And round to port we go, with Smith sliding out below Bader and Cocky and me above so that we cover each other in this steep turn. We curve around and catch a glimpse of four baffled 109's climbing back to join their companions, for they can't stay with us in a turn. The keen eyes of Smith saved us from a nasty smack that time.
"Keep turning Dogsbody, more coming down." from Cocky.
"O.K. We might get a squirt this time," rejoins Bader. What a man I think, what a man!
The turn tightens and in my extreme position on the starboard side I'm driving my Spitfire through a greater radius of curve than the others and falling behind. I kick on hard bottom rudder and skid inwards, down and behind the leader. More 109's hurtle down from above and section of four angle in from the starboard flank. I look round for other Spitfires but there are none in sight. The four of us are alone over Lille.
"Keep turning. Keep turning." (From Bader) "They can't stay with us." And we keep turning, hot and frightened and a long way from home. We can't keep turning all bloody day, I think bitterly.
Cocky has not reformed after one of our violent breaks. I take his place next to Bader and the three of us watch the Messerschmidts, time their dives and call the break into their attacks. The odds are heavily against us.
We turn across the sun and I am on the inside. The blinding light seems only two feet above Bader's cockpit and if I drop further below or he gains a little more height, I shall lose him. Already his Spitfire has lost its colour and is only a sharp black silhouette, and now it has disappeared, swallowed up by the sun's fierce light. I come out of the turn and am stunned to find myself alone in the Lille sky.
The Messerschmidts come in close for the kill. At this range their camoflauge looks dirty and oil stained, and one brute has a startling black and white spinner. In a hot sweat of fear I keep turning and turning, and the fear is mingled with an abject humiliation that these bastards should single me out and chop me at their leisure.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Johnson was lucky enough to survive this episode, and in fact shot down one opponent. But from the vividness of his memories, it is obvious he never forgot the terror of being the target of a structured attack.
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Buzzbait <S>. A man with a heart for historical accuracy. Great post. You could feel the Johnson's fear there. Good info RE:fighter section attacks.
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buzz.. I agree. The melees were as you describe. one side or the other most often started with an alt advantage but they didn't just B&Z... they ended up mixing it up in... a furball of 10, 20 or hundred planes.
I care little for the motive of a melee... I am not here to recreate the motive. I have plenty of books on air combat and they do indeed dissagree on motive for ac. some sorties were indeed to simply find other fighters and shoot em down.... The vast weight of evidence seems to point to the fact that the bombers had very little effect on the war effort other than to force the LW to fite and hence, be destroyed. but motive is not important to me... results are.
Nothing I have done in AH comes even close to recreating the flavor, and confusion of WWII ac than a big furball with 2 or three squaddies all on RW together. The radio (RW) sounds like the radios of harried pilots in meeles of WWII..
I don't see how you can get that by jumping from one gun positin to the other to the oilots seat to the roadkill norden and bombing the targets we have... i don't see how you can get that by lone wolfing B&Z from one base to the other... I don't see how you can get that with a ballet troupe of 3-4 mustangs.
so name me something that you "historical" types do that captures the flavor of WWII air combat.
lazs
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lazs1:
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so name me something that you "historical" types do that captures the flavor of WWII air combat.
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I remember one of my first historical sorties, flying a P51 over northern Germany. I got separated from my squad in a quick furball, then found myself alone in the sky with a low 109. Figuring myself a hot-shot pilot I engaged, sure of the quick kill, but almost as quickly found myself going to the defensive and unable to get away. This was one good pilot! As I was about to make my peace with the world, another P-51 shows up, and blows away the 109 on my 6.
I remember flying an F4F on patrol at Guadalcanal. My flight leader called out a group of low zeros and took the flight diving in to attack. I was a little slow to start the dive, and ended up behind the rest of the squad. As the Wildcats made their passes, the Zeros were alert and turned and dodged well. One Zero, frustrated by the slashing attack tried to fire at one of my squaddies, leaving himself a perfect target for my Wildcat as I pulled the trigger and blew him away.
I remember being out hunting over Northern Africa in a 109 with my flight leader during '42. We saw a low Hurricane who I found out later had just been damaged in a big fight, and was trying to find his way home. My flight leader let me make the attack, and although the Hurricane made a hard break turn, I was able to hold with him just enough to get a few hits, and down he went.
I remember flying a La5 at the battle of Kursk. After a long hard battle in which I had claimed two more kills (my 6th and 7th without being shot down), I found a squadmate and we made our way home. While landing, I came in too fast and killed myself through pure stupidity.
I remember flying a Stuka during the Battle of Britain. Our flight approached its target at 10k feet from the east, and went screaming down in our dives on an enemy airfield. We were attacked by a flight of Spitfires on egress, and most of the flight was destroyed. I was the only one to bring my plane home that day.
I remember flying a B17 on a massive, unescorted daylight raid deep into Germany. Not only my squad of B-17s, but (I think) 5 squads of B-17s. We were attacked by several different waves of 190s on the way to the target, but luckily I wasn't hit. As we were leaving the target area, I watch our flight leader fall away down behind us. We kept on, with 190s attacking constantly. Slowly, my flight started to become unglued as more B-17s were damaged, then started to fall behind, then were swarmed by 190s when they fell too far behind the protection of the other B-17s guns. Finally, in our flight, there was just me at the front, Cowboy, who was trailing smoke was with me, and many 190s behind. Cowboy couldn't keep up and I was faced with the dilemma of throttling back to stay with him, or to just keep going. I knew my death wouldn't help Cowboy any, so I kept going. Soon he fell victim to the FWs, and I was to be next! But before the 190s could close, I made it to the coast, and many flights of Spitfires to escort me home.
Damn, this is turning into a wall of text, and I have many more to go! Oh well.
Of course, this is all just a small taste of what has happened to me during AW Scenarios. And I would love for it to happen all again in AH scenarios. Maybe the TODs are going to be as much or more fun.
And also, of course, this has nothing to do with the MA. I just wanted to try to make the point that 'historical' air combat is why I'm here. The MA can be a lot of fun, but if it weren't for at least the hope of a good scenario in the future, I would have left months ago.
However, when I'm in the MA, I just wanna furball!
anRky
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Ok, here's my beef with furballs. Or my overall view.
I like good fights. I like good fights where ya meet the enemy, engange the enemy and either win or lose, and that's it.
In 9./JG 54 the standard procedure was to find a fight away from the main friendlies and *in between airbases*. That way, there would be no running to acks, and reinforcement would be a few minutes away for both sides.
Even that didn't work out too well. You'd fight, kill the enemy, have a couple of high ones pop in, kill them, have another two or more come in, shoot down the guy you shot down first again, and eventually, you'd be overcome by the continuously spawning pilots.
The closer you get to an airfield, the more prevealent it is.
In Ah, you just don't get many of the 4v4 alost co alt meetings. You meet some planes, then behind them some very hi, below them some very low. All with distance in time and position.
I LOVE when I meet squads when flying - cooperation and lots of *thinking* needed - actually outsmarting several guys. In a furball, the tactics for a wingie is simply: if you have an opportunity, shoot the guy who is trying to shoot your wingie - simply because there's continuously streaming in fighters.
I love the "limited number of planes, no ack running" fights - whether I lose or win.
Spawning all the time from two adjacent fields and shooting down in the same mission the same guy three times in three minutes is fun, but not as rewarding as the other kind of fight.
My opinions only. I realize that I'm in a minority.
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an.. i didn't know we had f4f's.. look, some of the descriptions are about.... furballs. One, the 51 is about the rare event when 1 plane each (from each side) got seperated from the furball and ended up fighting each other... some of your other examples are about lone wolf hunting or finding a lone wolf that was extremely rare if not completely wrong so far as history goes..
What is apparent is that you got a lot out of those encounters. They had an immersive "feel" that you enjoyed. that is fine but... it still doesn't make them any more realistic or "historic" than what I described less in most, if not every case.
If "historical" planesets are the most important thing to you then you have a slight point but... so far as the actual combat... the fur is still more like the majority of the actual combat of WWII.
Fact is... nobody flies around in a historic manner. it doesn't matter how historic you make the plane sets all you are doing is trading the slight "history" of axis vs allied for the huge problem of lack of variety or parity. In a 24 hr arena this would (and does) get old real quick.
lazs
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santa.. i think most of the furballs we have are not much more than 4 v 4. my squad usually leaves when they die or run out of fuel or ammo. We seem to run into a lot of groups of cons that happen to be.... another squad. sure.. the fites are low and not really condusive to LW planes but a lot of fun and very immersive none the less.
I also see nothing wrong with running to the ack. In reality you would run to a cloud but that hasn't worked out perfectly in AH. Ack is fine. Most would not chase a lone fighter into his own ack umbrella. WWII fites did not allway end with a victor. many times escape became the end result.
In furs i try to help squaddies first and foremost then drag for squaddies then do what i can for the green guys. Seems realistic enough for me. I don't care about respawn... if it get's too heavy or I get low on fuel or ammo it is simply time to bug out... seems "historic" enough to me.
I like killing a spit or a nik or a lag or a 109 equally and get no more or less immersed whichever I fite and or kill. I do dread the mind numbing sameness of axis vs allied.
lazs
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lazs1:
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[QB]an.. i didn't know we had f4f's..
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Um, lazs, all those descriptions were events that happened in *AW* Scenarios.
I really miss Scenarios.
anRky
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S! Lazs
Sorry to disappoint you again.
The types of furballs which happen in the MA do not resemble historical furballs at all.
Pilots in the MA do not fly team tactics in the furballs. There is no wingman behind you, holding position and watching your six.
In Real Life a solo pilot was extraordinarily vulnerable in air combat. There was no way he could watch his own tail and focus in on killing a target at the same time. You HAD to have the second pair of eyes watching for you.
In addition, well trained pilots avoided 'furball' enviroments. There were too many variables, too many aircraft to watch, too many possible ways to die.
You made your attack pass, perhaps followed through a few turns and if you didn't get your kill quickly, you broke from the action and reformed with your wingman or your flight.
There is a reason that the single most successful pilot of WWII survived all the combats he took part in. Luck, but also his technique. Hartmann used four little words to sum up his method:
SEE
DECIDE
ATTACK
BREAK
See: Know what is going around you. Know where all your opponents are. See them before they see you.
Decide: Plan your attack so it is on the best target and set it up in such a way you have an escape route.
Attack: Obvious what is going on here.
Break: Most important to his longterm survivability, he didn't hang around. Whether or not he was successful on the first pass, he got out of Dodge. Got separation and himself and his wingman, (he never lost a wingman) to a secure spot where he could begin the process again.
Furballs are populated by soon to be dead people. Either in this furball or the next.
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buzz... not disapointed but you seem to be looking at air combat in WWII from the unique perspective of german forces only. hartman was in a target rich environment with low flying ground support oriented and low (for the most part) skilled pilots for enemies. He allmost allways started with an alt advantage.
In large melees you often lost your wingman just like in AH. You did not just leave the melee and your friends because it was too confusing or not the fite of your choice. Once you are engaged in a melee or fur in AH it very much resembles the furs in WWII.
Soo.. my point remains... the furball dynamics once you are in combat are far more realistic than every other type of air combat that I have seen in AH. If everyone fought like hartman... then we would all go to whatever max alt is in whatever is the max alt plane (ta152?) and..... hide from each other. I don't believe this is very fun nor do I think it takes very much skill..The reason hartman was able to do what he did (besides enormous skill) was because the enemy had "missions", things they had to do. they were, as I said ground support oriented and that was far more important than loosing planes to a few germans. hartman fought in exactly the right way for his situation...
That situation does not exist in AH and shouldn't. the only type of air combat worth duplicating is the melee. Lone wolf dueling or lone wolf festabriaing is fine... got nothing against it... for other people... but it is not in the least "realistic"..
so... what are/should we be doing that is more "realistic" or "historical" than the fur/melee?
lazs
[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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S! Lazs
If you are saying don't desert your buddies in melee, no a pilot didn't. As long as he could see his wingman or members of his Squadron and they were engaged, then he tried to fight with them, using the team tactics he had been taught.
However, as soon as he lost sight of friendlies...
Most airforces, (I know the British , U.S. and German) told their pilots if they were separated from their wingman or Squadron to immediately exit the combat area and either try to rendezvous at a previously agreed location, or return to their home base. They were absolutely not to stay and fight alone unless they were compelled to.
This combat doctrine was based on the simple fact that survivability of an individual aircraft in the air to air enviroment was low. The odds just didn't payoff to fight alone.
Of course it is a lot easier to spot your buddies in AH than in RL. Those nice green nametags over their head help.
As far as improving tactics in the MA:
I don't know. Haven't been there for a while. I do my flying in HTH, and usually in a Team server. Based on my observations of that enviroment and the enviroment I saw in AH's MA when I was there, I'd say more team flying would payoff for the side which employed it. Of course you probably couldn't get together Squadron strength units, but it seems to me that a 4 ship Flight, using Wingman tactics and coordinated attacks would be quite successful. It sounds like that is practiced by certain Squads on a fairly regular basis. A larger number of pilots, say 8 or 12, using those tactics would be devastating.
All sides used formation attacks, even when they were Japanese flying Zeros or Brits flying Spits. The only difference was that the Brits might follow an opponent through a few more turns than a German might.
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buzz... we agree... when you are outnumbered and alone or hurt you should make it to the rendevous point.
I have noticed tho lately in AH a much greater tendency for squads to enter the melees together and protect their squaddies more fiercly. The remndevous point is not needed with the shorter distances to fields but many guys exit furs (telling squaddies they are doing so), gain alt or position, and then return.
I find these dynamics very "historical" and the chatter on RW is amazingly familiar sounding to history buffs.
I think a lot of people get german tactics anbd their situation confused with the rest of the WWII participants. The LW was allways weak in one respect or another. They had to conserve pilots and planes and their pilots had enormous hours or evidence of how to survive. Many of the other countries were filled with glory seekers and headhunters. They had the numbers to back em up too or, like russia.. they didn't much care how many they lost so long as they got their ground support role taken care of.
Again.... someone tell me about something they do in AH that is more "historical" than the furball.
If strat means destroying the enemies fighters like the B17 raids did or fighter sweeps then the furballers in AH are the "strat" guys. so far as I can see, every other type of fighting in AH is just..... quake.
lazs
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Quote: unlike noble furballers they have a lot of spare time and use that to envision more and more anal, complex and contradictory elements that they are sure will highlight
their particular "talent"
Can no one make a point without insulting the holder of a differing view? :(
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S! Lazs
Actually the USAAF Fighter boys flew in exactly the same fashion as the Luftwaffe right up until May '44. By that time the German fighter force was so weakened that the Americans were able to start flying lower level missions and emphasize ground attack more.
The British too used the same basic formation tactics as the Luftwaffe.
Only the Russians developed a different set of techniques. That was largely because they focused on low level ground support missions almost exclusively. Their fighter aircraft rarely went over 15,000 ft, and more often operated at 10,000 or lower.
This was because they were primarily escorting formations of IL-2's and PE-2's. And those aircraft needed to be at around 5-7000ft in order to see their ground targets.
The Russians developed a somewhat disorderly style of formation. A British pilot who saw them described it as being similar to a flock of starlings, with the a pack of planes wheeling and turning in a big cloud. He thought they were just poor flyers who had no formation sense, but there was actually logic behind what they were doing.
Because they were operating at lower alt. levels, and they had to deal with higher altitude German fighters bouncing them on a regular basis, the idea of flying the usual orderly formations that the Allies and Germans did would just make them easy targets. On the other hand if their planes were constantly changing positions and moving around, it would make it more difficult for a unseen German aircraft in a diving attack to get a good shot.
A couple other comments:
Seeing another aircraft against ground clutter was quite difficult. In many instances, especially when there was a cloud layer, it was easier to spot an opponent silhouetted against the cloud layer than one which was lost in the mass of objects on the ground. The fact there was snow on the ground in the Soviet Union was a significant advantage in spotting for a higher altitude aircraft. This was because the aircraft would be once again silhouetted against the white mass of snow. This was particularly the case in the Steppe areas of the Ukraine and the Donbass. In Western Europe, with the milder climate, snow on the ground was far less common.
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weave... who said that? The guy is a genius... insightful, consise and too the point.
buzz... we are agreeing but... I think the germans allways flew in larger numbers and were more cautious. even at the end they would go up in very large numbers hitting the miles long B17 formations at one point in a concentrated bunch with local superior numbers. The fresher U.S. pilots could be said to be more agressive. The russians allso flew at full throttle most of the time because they knew they would be bounced and it made it harder on the germs.
Look... I don't care if u quake guys can't or won't furball I just want you to admit that the only realistic flying or "strat" in AH is the melee or furball and that everything else is ..... quake.
lazs