Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: mipoikel on April 06, 2002, 02:07:08 AM
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(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/lntv/histor4.jpg)
??
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Hmmm... Do I see it right that there are Nazi Crosses on that plane?
Anyway, it looks like russian design, yet the cowling part and prop, kinda remind me of Fokke Wulf design.
It looks like a FW-190 and a Lavochka collided. :)
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VL Myrsky
Finnish fighter design.
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Originally posted by AlphaTwo
Hmmm... Do I see it right that there are Nazi Crosses on that plane?
No,they are not nazi crosses.
Myrsky it is!:D
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I think Grunherz is right. For a sec i thought it was a Fokker D21 but that looks like this:
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Not nazi Crosses.
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but that sign on the lower part of the wing is a nazi cross.
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Originally posted by FirstBorg
but that sign on the lower part of the wing is a nazi cross.
No, it is not.
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/aboutswa.html (http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/aboutswa.html)
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yes it is, if you mirror it.
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According to Grand Soviet Encyclopedia - it's a swastika, "a cross with bended ends". But our Finnish comrades will say that it's a Von Rosen Cross. Please, never say that it's a swastika if you don't want to offend Finns.
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That "nazi cross" was in use long befor AH came along and adapted it in his sick cause !:rolleyes: Do a net search for a Finn by the name of Mannerheim and the FAF(Finnish AF). Also notice the orientation of each cross.
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But our Finnish comrades will say that it's a Von Rosen Cross
There are no finnish comrades anymore.
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Finnish Swastika
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~avalpas/hakaristi.htm
====> Brewster B-239 to AH <=====
http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewster.html
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the finns kicked commie butt and i love them for that :)
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
the finns kicked commie butt and i love them for that :)
Did I miss something?
March, 1940, Soviet tanks on the ice of the Finnish Gulf, Mannerheim line broken and nothing to stop them on the way to Helsinki...
It was a heroic attempt - but Soviet victory was only a question of time :( Anyway - my hat off for Suomi people.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Did I miss something?
March, 1940, Soviet tanks on the ice of the Finnish Gulf, Mannerheim line broken and nothing to stop them on the way to Helsinki...
It was a heroic attempt - but Soviet victory was only a question of time :( Anyway - my hat off for Suomi people.
Compare the casualty figures comrade, they killed a whole bunch of russians, no matter who's tanks rolled where.
In the end they managed to stay an independent country, despite the Soviet efforts to occupy them.
I'd say the Finns won that war, no matter how much land the Soviets ended up grabbing.
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But hey, that's old news really..
Now we enjoy our Russian neighbours who bring dollars to our shops, bath spa's and motels. Every day our local markets get busloads of tourists buying diapers and ironing boards by truckloads.. I've seen people walk away with a load of 30 ironing boards and 40 packets of diapers. Per buyer I mean.. Someone must be making good profit with them back in russia :)
Only problem really is that if you go shopping during 11 am - 3 pm you'll have to queue for 20 minutes with all the tourists. Fortunately I don't shop at that time.
Oh, and the suicidal driving habits of the russians.. That I don't like.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Did I miss something?
March, 1940, Soviet tanks on the ice of the Finnish Gulf, Mannerheim line broken and nothing to stop them on the way to Helsinki...
It was a heroic attempt - but Soviet victory was only a question of time :( Anyway - my hat off for Suomi people.
LOL, well, there indeed were russian tanks and troops on the ice deck of Gulf of Viipuri (look at a map, that's a pretty long way from Helsinki) during the final days of winter war.
The situation was indeed critical there but the soviet assault suffered tremedous losses (even 2000 men per day). These losses were inflicted by Finnish infantry and by Flight Regiments 1 and 2 (Flight Regiment 2's fighters restriction to engage ground targets was removed sole purpose for this being the strafing of soviet troops on the ice deck).
So...
First:
There were no Red Army troops any where near Helsinki.
Second:
Soviets troops indeed had "something" to stop them on every section of the front. Otherwise there wouldn't have been 2000 men soviet losses per day.
Finnish losses were 21396 KIA and 1434 MIA.
Russian losses were about 200000 KIA and 600000 wounded.
Yep, I'd say finns kicked some commie butt.
"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."
J. Stalin 1948
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USSR NEVER intended to occupy Finland. If Stalin wanted it - there was no way to stop him.
Wmaker, Finnish defence was broken, and you know it. Finnish parliament was clever enough to surrender and agree with pre-war Soviet conditions.
Good quote from J.S. ;) It's exactly what I think.
Soviet losses were extremely big... My Father said that his high school in Rostov-on-Don was closed in winter, 1940, and turned into a military hospital. Rostov is more then 2000km South from Leningrad...
Mrsid - LOL!!! In late-80s we had exactly the same thing here, with Poles buying everything ;) And Russian driving habbits are really crazy. Especially here in Moscow. In Leningrad drivers are almost sane ;)
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Boroda lets keep in mind however that the intention of the russian army was to cut across the middle part of finland in 2 weeks, dividing the country in two.
After that there would probably have been occupation..
That 2 weeks stretched a little as we know. Our defence was on the virge of breaking at the end of war, but our diplomats turned the situation to our victory. We kept our independence.
There was only one front where the soviet military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, and that was the finnish front.
We lost men, we lost ground, but we stoped the soviet army from fulfilling its military objectives. I'd call that a defensive victory.
We = my grandfathers and their fathers. I had obviously nothing to do with the whole ordeal, luckily.
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There was only one front where the soviet military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, and that was the finnish front.
There was only one front in WWII where nazi military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, and that was the Karelian/Polar front.
;)
They were unable to cut the Musrmansk railway line. USSR had a "backup" railway, but the main line, built in 1916, was intact. Murmansk was a key non-freezing port, and it was working even after LW "knights" burned the whole city to ashes...
And again: if J.S. wanted to occupy Finland - he could easily do it. He was satisfied after the border line was moved away from Leningrad, and Finland got 2 times more land in Karelia, as Soviet government suggested in 1939.
Funny that Mannerheim was probably the most sane Finnish leader - he was against war with USSR. He was a Russian Engineering Corps general.
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"There was only one front in WWII where nazi military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, "
I take it you mean the English Channel?
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Originally posted by Boroda
USSR NEVER intended to occupy Finland. If Stalin wanted it - there was no way to stop him.
Wmaker, Finnish defence was broken, and you know it. Finnish parliament was clever enough to surrender and agree with pre-war Soviet conditions.
Boroda, all you have is your own opinion.
-Among historians all over the world it's a clear fact that USSR tried to occupy Finland in the Winter War.
-USSR allready lost 600000 soldiers in what you call "pushing the boarder farther from Leningrad. And you say Stalin could have easily invaded Finland???
-There is that secret agreement document between Hitler and Stalin. It has been proven and found to be true by historians all over the world. I remember you saying it's only a cold war relic. Boroda, where's your proof?? You have only your on opinion on this, nothing more. That agreement alone proves you wrong. If you have something revolutionary information which would change the history books then by all means share it with us. :rolleyes:
-There were parade instruments found by finns from the troops on the Raate-road at Suomussalmi. They were supposed to be in victory parade in Oulu. Also in general those troops were better equipped to have fun in Oulu than to fight in Finnish winter which was extremely harsh in 1939 (-40 degrees of Celsius). These troops came mostly from southern USSR and they weren't used nor equipped to handle finnish climate.
-Then there was a book published by the Red Army..."Marching guide to Finland". It describes in detail even the smallest roads and terrain in southern Finland.
Finnish defense was tired outnumbered and under stress, no doubt about it. And finally, Finland did NOT surrender if Finland would have surrendered we'd be talking russian and Lappeenranta for example would just as bad shape as Viipuri is right now. Damn that city would have been beautiful in finnish hands... :(
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I mean - stopped with armed force on the ground ;)
Nice one, thanks ;)
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Originally posted by Seeker
"There was only one front in WWII where nazi military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, "
I take it you mean the English Channel?
Hmm...where's the frontline??
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Originally posted by Wmaker
Boroda, all you have is your own opinion.
-Among historians all over the world it's a clear fact that USSR tried to occupy Finland in the Winter War.
I didn't read any books by that "historians".
Originally posted by Wmaker
-USSR allready lost 600000 soldiers in what you call "pushing the boarder farther from Leningrad. And you say Stalin could have easily invaded Finland???
HOW MUCH!? You still call them "historians"?! He DID invade Finland.
Originally posted by Wmaker
-There is that secret agreement document between Hitler and Stalin. It has been proven and found to be true by historians all over the world. I remember you saying it's only a cold war relic. Boroda, where's your proof?? You have only your on opinion on this, nothing more. That agreement alone proves you wrong. If you have something revolutionary information which would change the history books then by all means share it with us. :rolleyes:
No proof. "Secret protocols" to the "Molotov-Ribbentrp" treaty are a well-known fake. Fake. Once again - FAKE.
Originally posted by Wmaker
-There were parade instruments found by finns from the troops on the Raate-road at Suomussalmi. They were supposed to be in victory parade in Oulu. Also in general those troops were better equipped to have fun in Oulu than to fight in Finnish winter which was extremely harsh in 1939 (-40 degrees of Celsius). These troops came mostly from southern USSR and they weren't used nor equipped to handle finnish climate.
No comments, sorry. Thank you for the information. Would you be so kind to provide me any links in Russian or English?
Originally posted by Wmaker
-Then there was a book published by the Red Army..."Marching guide to Finland". It describes in detail even the smallest roads and terrain in southern Finland.
No surprise. I think that Finnish and German army had detailed descriptions of Soviet territory.
Originally posted by Wmaker
Finnish defense was tired outnumbered and under stress, no doubt about it. And finally, Finland did NOT surrender if Finland would have surrendered we'd be talking russian and Lappeenranta for example would just as bad shape as Viipuri is right now. Damn that city would have been beautiful in finnish hands... :(
Again: there was no intention to occupy the whole Finland. We got what we wanted, and it was cleraly stated before the white-Finn war.
I have greatest respect for Finnish people. You are a great example of what Russian Empire could be without bolsheviks....
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"Hmm...where's the frontline??"
France, of course.
What else is it there for?
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Originally posted by Boroda
I didn't read any books by that "historians".
Well, here's few opinions of the russians:
"The deeds of the Finns during the Winter War gave others an example of how a people must fight for its independence."
Colonel General Dimitrij Volkogonov, February 1989
"The truth was on the side of the Finns when they heroically defended their freedom and their independence."
Historian Boris Sokolov, December 1989
Another historians' opinion:
"In early March Stalin conceded defeat, abandoning his occupation plans and settling for a compromise agreement, leaving Finland independent. With the signing of the Peace Agreement on 13 March Finland had to cede 10 % of her territory to the USSR, but Finland herself remained free."
Dr. Tomas Ries, senior researcher,
National Defence College, Finland
Source for these quotes:
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/war1.html
Originally posted by Boroda
HOW MUCH!? You still call them "historians"?! He DID invade Finland.
Got my figures mixed up. I of course meant 200000 soldiers.
And no, he didn't invade Finland.
(That link I posted above gives 400000 figure btw.)
Originally posted by Boroda
No proof. "Secret protocols" to the "Molotov-Ribbentrp" treaty are a well-known fake. Fake. Once again - FAKE.
No proof? Well it just something your little mind has made up??
Well, you know, if it makes you sleep better at night... :)
Originally posted by Boroda
No comments, sorry. Thank you for the information. Would you be so kind to provide me any links in Russian or English?
This was all in a TV documentary about the Raate-road battle. There were quite a few russian veterans interviewed in it. It was made from the soviet viewpoint...how the soviet survivors remembered it.
Originally posted by Boroda
No surprise. I think that Finnish and German army had detailed descriptions of Soviet territory.
In the preface it said that it was meant for invasion forces.
EDIT/Here's a foreign view: http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/winter_war/ /EDIT
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Some links...
http://www.raatteenportti.fi/ (http://www.raatteenportti.fi/)
http://www.winterwar.com (http://www.winterwar.com)
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I'm quite inclined to agree with Boroda in the fact that if the USSR had really wanted to commit itself wholly to the occupation of Finland, there would have been no chance of stopping them at all. Finnish patriots may drivel and babble all they want, but I think that the outcome of such a turn of events is quite obvious.
So the net result was a Soviet offensive of a smaller scale, though quite big enough for Finland as it was. At some point the Soviet command apparently decided that they'd make do with what had been accomplished so far.
Obviously it all depended ultimately on the decisions of the Soviet command, so mrsid's opinion "-- our diplomats turned the situation to our victory" doesn't exactly make sense. Of course Finland would be looking for a diplomatical solution as the situation at the front got worse, but I'd say that J.S. was the one calling the shots. You can bet your bellybutton off that I'm glad of how the events played out, though, whatever the possibilites could have been.
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Boroda - drop it, it's hopeless. A year or so ago we had this discussion, I posted sources/links (Finnish) to show exactly where Finland stood at the end of Winter War - no joy. In the end I just gave up - why bother arguing with people who are too brainwashed to understand facts?
Sage - my hat off to you. I could never figure out how nationalistic bravado, stupid lies and "interpretation of events" can serve to show respect to incredible skill and bravery Finnish soldiers and pilots showed defending their country against hopeless odds.
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Lynx, I understand it. I'll say it isn't "brainwashing". It's self-hypnosis. It's much easier to believe that Finns could win and stop Red Army. And I understand it and will not blame any Finn for thinking this way. I only don't like that as usually they hang all dogs on evil Russians. USSR stated it's suggestions to Finland, and it could even be called a fair exchange. Border had to be moved from Leningrad, and in summer, 1941, it saved the city, when Finns suddenly became allies of the nazis. Unfortunately for both countries - reasonable people in Finnish government were in minority...
Finns showed extraordinary heroism, and noone doubts it here in Russia.
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In summer 41 our troops stopped attacking and Mannerheim denied to attack Leningrad. Germany wanted Finns to keep on attack but Mannerheim was smart enough to stop it.
So I think your opinion of Leningrads safety is not right. Moving borders didnt save it.
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Hmm, maybe I missed something again? When I was born the city still was in place, not "wiped away from the face of Earth" as it was planned.
Even if Finns stoped and didn't attack Leningad - there were nazis who did it from Finnish territory. Correct me if I'm wrong.
BTW, did Finns really stop? Maybe they stoped only on Karelian Isthmus, or you think that ethnic Russians living in Karelia simply invited Finns and asked to place them in concentration camps?
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Deleted?? Hope so..
Unfortunately I didnt find any GOOD english web sites about this.
German forces were in northern finland, Lappland.
Finnish forces never attack vs Leningrad. Finnish pilots had orders NOT to go over Leningrad.
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Maybe this helps: Finland in World War II (http://hkkk.fi/%7Eyrjola/war/finland/)
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LOL mipo, the world would have been better off without EVER seeing that sorry excuse for a historical website.
It must have been written by a 12-year old.
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BOOOO!!!
Now I agree with Lynx - it's propaganda, and a damn stupid propaganda.
Great Britain is in war against democratic Finland with dictatorship (The Soviet Union)!
It's definetly a joke of the month!
Then we read:
Hitler visits Finland and greets Mannerheim on his 75th birthday 4.6.1944
Great Britain should have joined this democratic leaders against the evil dictatorship! And poor Brits were on the wrong side all the way!
9.6.1944 Russians begin major attack on Karelian Isthmus. Vyborg is lost. Germans send weapon help to Finland. Finnish troops repel the Russian on Tali and Ihantala. Russians can`t occupy Finland. Finland and the Soviet Union make peace 19.9.1944.
No doubt that if Mannerheim decided not to stop at the old border - Russians should have run to the Pacific coast.
-Peace of Moskow (1940) border become valid, and Finland has to cede Petsamo
And all the land it occupied in 1941 too. What is a Finnish name for Petrozavodsk?
-Finland has to rent Porkkala to the Soviet Unions navalbase for 50 years.
How long did that 50 years last? Were you told at school that Nikita abandoned this base (BTW, a Russian Imperial Navy base, a part of a mine/artillery position protecting SPb from the sea) in the 50s?
Interesting... I never thought what happened to another rented base at Hanko (Gangut)... Will inquire, but looks like noone bothered to give it back.
-Finland has to sentence War culprit.
-Finland has to stop "fascists and Hitler-favouring" organisations.
This is definetly the sadest part. Evil, evil Russians!
JFYI: Finnish troops helped to close the ring around Leningrad. If you happen to come to SPb - please, go to the Piskarevskoye memorial cemetary before you'll get too drunk. When you'll see all that tombs - you'll need it.
Sorry, I am very impolite :( But that page is very, very stupid. Who made it?
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Dr Zhivago, good link, thanks!
Damn, that hallucination by Finnish Prime-Minister, and the answer from Pravda made me laugh :D
English translation doesn't sound nearly as funny as Russian original!
After this the clown stood on his head and threatened with his leg the Soviet Union, who he alleged is going to make an attempt on the independence of Finland. Such an imposing figure, indeed!
Ïîñëå ýòîãî øóò ãîðîõîâûé ñòàë íà ãîëîâó è ïîãðîçèë íîãîé Cîâåòñêîìó Ñîþçó, êîòîðûé áóäòî áû ïîêóøàåòñÿ íà íåçàâèñèìîñòü Ôèíëÿíäèè. Ïîçà ïîèñòèíå âåëè÷åñòâåííàÿ!
LOL!!! And I imagine THIS at the Pravda front page! ROFLMAO!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist it :) In the 70s-80s Pravda never afforded such brilliant humor.
Both the speech and the answer are so full of lies that it makes you think about all that crap that was poured into our brains :( And people believed it, and some people still do believe :(
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Sorry about that funny site, I didnt even read it before now. I just find it using google...:D Rip is right, it must be witten some 12 yrs old kid..:o
Ty zhivago, good site.
:D
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Originally posted by -lynx-
Boroda - drop it, it's hopeless. A year or so ago we had this discussion, I posted sources/links (Finnish) to show exactly where Finland stood at the end of Winter War - no joy. In the end I just gave up - why bother arguing with people who are too brainwashed to understand facts?
Sage - my hat off to you. I could never figure out how nationalistic bravado, stupid lies and "interpretation of events" can serve to show respect to incredible skill and bravery Finnish soldiers and pilots showed defending their country against hopeless odds.
lynx, you posted insults about finns comitting war crimes in Karelia. Just insults with no facts to back up your words. You still have nothing to prove your words.
I know exactly where Finland stood in the end of the Winter War.
I posted quotes from russian historian and a colonel. Both say Finland was fighting for its independence. It's obviously easier just to ingnore those words and resort to calling me brainwashed instead.
I have never said that if the Winter War would have prolonged that Soviet Union would not have been able to occupy Finland. What I said was that Stalin had a plan to occupy Finland quickly and when it didn't work he settled for Karelia and other regions.
Here's a quote of what I mean:
"Four months later, after the hardest fighting seen in Europe since the first World War and massive Soviet reinforcements, Finland's lines remained unbroken, while the Red Army had lost up to 400.000 soldiers in casualties. Finland's soldiers were now down to their last bullets, but Stalin did not know that, and he was running out of time. With the spring thaws approaching, his forces risked becoming bogged down in the extensive wetland forests along the front, while politically every week lost increased his humiliation and vulnerability vis a vis a vengeful Japan in the Far East, an ambitious Hitler in the west, and a Britain and France that were considering intervention on Finland's side.
In early March Stalin conceded defeat, abandoning his occupation plans and settling for a compromise agreement, leaving Finland independent. With the signing of the Peace Agreement on 13 March Finland had to cede 10 % of her territory to the USSR, but Finland herself remained free."
Written for Virtual Finland by Dr. Tomas Ries, senior researcher -
National Defence College - Finland
Source: http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/war1.html
What makes you any more qualified to call me brainwashed than me calling you??
Originally posted by Boroda
Lynx, I understand it. I'll say it isn't "brainwashing". It's self-hypnosis. It's much easier to believe that Finns could win and stop Red Army. And I understand it and will not blame any Finn for thinking this way. I only don't like that as usually they hang all dogs on evil Russians. USSR stated it's suggestions to Finland, and it could even be called a fair exchange. Border had to be moved from Leningrad, and in summer, 1941, it saved the city, when Finns suddenly became allies of the nazis. Unfortunately for both countries - reasonable people in Finnish government were in minority...
Finns showed extraordinary heroism, and noone doubts it here in Russia.
Boroda you too?? I was expecting more of you than this "self-hypnosis-thing". You too just ignore all the information that I posted and go personal?? If I didn't know better I'd say you are running out of ammo.
I never ever said that Finland won that war! Finland LOST that war. I have never said otherwise. What I said was that USSR couldn't occupy Finland the way Stalin had planned and because it didn't happen Stalin signed the peace treaty.
USSR started that war. If Finland would now start making regional demands at Russia would Russia just hand land over to Finland?!? Finland was the bad boy for not handing over its lands without a fight?!? There was nothing fair to that exchange and its sole purpose was occupation. If Finland would have agreed on it she would have ended up just like the Baltic countries!!
Well, considering who was running your country at the time I find this "unreasonable government-thing" very funny. Personally I think our war-time government was great and was a big factor in keeping my country independent.
Originally posted by Boroda
Maybe they stoped only on Karelian Isthmus, or you think that ethnic Russians living in Karelia simply invited Finns and asked to place them in concentration camps?
Hmm... this is interesting. Problem is that you don't have any proof this because what you say here never took place. Soviet propaganda all the way. As you asked me...any proof...web-sites, quotes...anything? Hmm....I thought so.
Originally posted by Boroda
Great Britain is in war against democratic Finland with dictatorship (The Soviet Union)!
It's definetly a joke of the month!
Great Britain did declare war (allthough a formal war...only on paper...if we don't count for few incidents in the northern Finland) against Finland, you really didn't know this Boroda?!? About the dictatorship AFAIK Stalin was more or less a dictator, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Originally posted by Boroda
Hitler visits Finland and greets Mannerheim on his 75th birthday 4.6.1944
Great Britain should have joined this democratic leaders against the evil dictatorship! And poor Brits were on the wrong side all the way!
Hitler did indeed visit Mannerheim on his birthday. I don't remember the exact date or was it 75th birthday or not but otherwise that's true. I don't quite understand what you mean here.
Originally posted by Boroda
9.6.1944 Russians begin major attack on Karelian Isthmus. Vyborg is lost. Germans send weapon help to Finland. Finnish troops repel the Russian on Tali and Ihantala. Russians can`t occupy Finland. Finland and the Soviet Union make peace 19.9.1944.
No doubt that if Mannerheim decided not to stop at the old border - Russians should have run to the Pacific coast.
Soviets, begun their major attack 9.6.1944 on Karelian Isthmus. Finns lost Vyborg. Germans did send weapon help to Finland. Finnsh troops did repel the Soviet attack on Tali and Ihantala. Russians couldn't occupy Finland in the pace they had planned and turn their intrest on Berlin. Finland and Soviet Union did sign a peace treaty on 19.9.1944.
That's all true.
I don't understand your reply at all here. It does not make sense aat all.
Originally posted by Boroda
-Finland has to rent Porkkala to the Soviet Unions navalbase for 50 years.
How long did that 50 years last? Were you told at school that Nikita abandoned this base (BTW, a Russian Imperial Navy base, a part of a mine/artillery position protecting SPb from the sea) in the 50s?
Interesting... I never thought what happened to another rented base at Hanko (Gangut)... Will inquire, but looks like noone bothered to give it back.
Where did it say that Porkkala remained under soviets the whole 50 years? It said in the peace treaty that Finland has to rent Porkkala for 50 years.
Originally posted by Boroda
-Finland has to sentence War culprit.
-Finland has to stop "fascists and Hitler-favouring" organisations.
This is definetly the sadest part. Evil, evil Russians!
It is true that we had to find war culprits. Risto Ryti for example went to prison just because he was the president during the war and helped Finland remain independent.
Finland had to stop organisations like Lotta-Svärd and Suojeluskunta-organisation because of the pressure by the soviets. Finnish Air Force also had to give up Von Rosen Cross because of this.
Didn't read the page, just replied to the quotes you picked...don't know what else is there.
Boroda, you still gonna ignore my information and call me self-hypnotized?
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And how about heroic soviet partizans who killed civilian women and children in northern finland. Whole villages were destroyed and population killed. Well unfortunately not english webpages about it...
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It's really funny to see someone who probably grew up in the marxian-socialist educational system call US brainwashed.. LOL.
When I visited Estonia 15 years ago (it was then still under soviet occupation) I saw the nordic map in the war education classroom. War education? Yes, there were kalashnikovs and handgrenades etc. material in the 6th grade schoolclass. Students had to obey orders and line up in formations etc. normal military training procedures.
Anyway, there was a map on the wall where finland had no border with Soviet union.. The teacher couldn't explain what was the idea behind that map. He only smiled and spread his hands when asked. Well, that kinda symbolizes the 'truth' people have been told in the ex soviet union countries.
During those times there was only one truth, the official one approved by the party :)
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"Four months later, after the hardest fighting seen in Europe since the first World War and massive Soviet reinforcements, Finland's lines remained unbroken, while the Red Army had lost up to 400.000 soldiers in casualties. Finland's soldiers were now down to their last bullets, but Stalin did not know that, and he was running out of time. With the spring thaws approaching, his forces risked becoming bogged down in the extensive wetland forests along the front, while politically every week lost increased his humiliation and vulnerability vis a vis a vengeful Japan in the Far East, an ambitious Hitler in the west, and a Britain and France that were considering intervention on Finland's side.
In early March Stalin conceded defeat, abandoning his occupation plans and settling for a compromise agreement, leaving Finland independent. With the signing of the Peace Agreement on 13 March Finland had to cede 10 % of her territory to the USSR, but Finland herself remained free."
It's all nothing more then fantasies of that "historian". Let's stick to the facts: USSR wanted to exchange Karelian Isthmus for the bigger territory in Karelia. When Finnish defence was broken - Finns agreed to that conitions, and Stalin stoped hostilities. He wasn't a stupid and didn't need the whole Finland.
Boroda you too?? I was expecting more of you than this "self-hypnosis-thing". You too just ignore all the information that I posted and go personal?? If I didn't know better I'd say you are running out of ammo.
Sorry, probable misunderstanding here. What I meant is that it's normal that you are proud of your country, and I'd be surprised if you will say different things.
But all that statements about "occupation of Finland" are as ridiculous as Soviet propaganda in 1939-40, saying that Finland was preparing an attack on Leningrad.
Your wartime government was stupid enough to kill thousands of it's citizens in a futile effort to stop inevitable. That speech by Cajander is a typical example of political hypocricy, chest-banging and obvious lies.
I think you missed my discussion with Staga about Finnish concentration camps in Karelia. I quoted Finnish sources translated to Russian. My biggest problem is that I can't even spell the names of Finnish researches in Latin :( And I hope that you will admit that Finns didn't stop at the old border. Again, what was the Finnish name for Petrozavodsk?
Soviet "partisans": why do you call them "partisans"? Did they operate on occupied territory? If not - were they regular army units? Many questions, no answers so far. The whole story looks strange for me, I want to know more about it.
Mrsid: "Elementary Military Education" started at the 9th grade and didn't suppose "following orders". Yes, basic formation marching, studying AKM and basic unit tactics was taught, but I don't think it's criminal.
Was the map you saw a map of Russian Empire in 1914? Was Helsinki called "Gelsingfors" there? Oh, sorry, it's in Cyrrilic :( Was there a border with Poland?
ALL school maps of USSR had a huge red line at the Soviet border. Any teacher who "couldn't explain what was the idea behind that map" had a good chance to lose his job.
What I don't like is that USSR is painted as an "evil empire" in the West. There is no one without a sin, but the things were not as bad as they are pictured now.
Another thought: Finnish government stated they don't understand "indirect agression". This term (kosvennaya agressiya) sounds incorrect in English, and I can't even imagine how it sounds in Finnish. In fact, it's exactly what happened in 1941 when Germans used Finland as a beachhead in the North.
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Heres some information about soviet "partisans"...
Actions of Soviet partisans against the civilian population in Finland during the Continuation War (http://www.uni-ulm.de/LiLL/3.0/E/3.3actofsovietpartisans.html)
The purpose of this study was to find out how the actions of Soviet partisans were depicted in Finnish literature, and what was the discussion like in the press in the end of 1990’s. The study focused on actions of the partisans against villages inhabited by civilians within the borders of Finland, and not on partisan activity in the Finnish-occupied eastern Karelia, nor on the clashes between the partisans and Finnish soldiers.
Soon after the outbreak of war in the summer of 1941, the partisans began operating systematically. The operations were part of a total war against Germany and her ally, Finland. Their purpose was the pressure Finland out of the war, to break the morale of the civilian population, and to tie Finnish troops in action in the rear areas.
Usually those soldiers and civilians, who are called partisans, are members of a resistance movement in a country that is occupied. In the Continuation War, Finns used the definition „partisans" of those Russians who conducted operations against Finnish villages in the border areas of Lapland and Kainuu. The Russians also called them partisans. However, the Finns called those troops of their own who conducted operations in the enemy rear areas, long range patrolmen. Soviet partisans were not soldiers, nor were they under military command. Instead they were men and women who were trained and lead by the communist party, and who belonged to an organization subordinated to the communist party.
Between 1941-1944 Soviet partisans attacked 23 civilian villages between Liperi and Sodankylä. They killed 147 civilians and captured all the elderly people, women and children they encountered.
The actions of partisans were occasionally mentioned in literature already in the 1960’s, and in nonfiction literature starting from the 1970’s. But only in the 80’s and 90’s did these kinds of publications begin to grow in number, especially after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the latter half of the 1990’s. After the war people kept silent about the partisans in the name of a new foreign policy, and neither were the victims themselves willing to talk about their experiences.
One of the initiators of the public debate was Veikko Erkkilä’s book „Vaiettu Sota" (1998), and a documentary that based on it in the autumn of 1998. Fierce debate took place in some newspapers and magazines about the activities of the partisans. Reparations were demanded for the victims of the partisans, and people were relieved that the official silence was over. Other people felt that wars always involve civilian casualties, and no belligerent had a clean record in treatment of civilians. It was also reminded that the winner is always right, only the loser is guilty of war crimes.
After some time has passed, it is possible to gain objective information on Soviet partisans. The Ministry of Education has granted a grant for the Finnish Historical Society for a study on the actions of the Soviet partisans in Finland 1941-1944. Russian scholars take also part in the research, and it is part of a wider study of the political history of the Continuation War.
And small excerpt from finnish newspaper...
HELSINGIN SANOMAT - International Edition (http://www.helsinki-hs.net/today/170100-03.html)
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Originally posted by Boroda
What I don't like is that USSR is painted as an "evil empire" in the West. There is no one without a sin, but the things were not as bad as they are pictured now.
Well, at least USSR were way ahead of any western nation in what comes to the relationship between religion and state. I could not help but chuckle at the irony after having read that at least one of the churches in the USSR had been put to use as a museum of religious history and freethought. Too bad that apparently the religions were replaced with cults of personal deitification.
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Dr Zhivago, now I'll tell you one thing, please, don't get angry...
Calling them partisans is very incorrect.
Diversionary units meeting local militia. How was it called? Shutskor? They were civilians, right?
147 "civilians" killed by Soviet saboteurs...
However, the Finns called those troops of their own who conducted operations in the enemy rear areas, long range patrolmen.
I doubt that anyone counted victims of Finnish terrorist groups (see the difference in definitions? I intentionaly make you look at it from Soviet side), while many thousands of ethnic Russians were in concentration camps in Karelia.
Soviet partisans were not soldiers, nor were they under military command. Instead they were men and women who were trained and lead by the communist party, and who belonged to an organization subordinated to the communist party.
How do you suppose me to answer this nonsence? Tell me one simple thing: were they military or civilian, and don't whistle into my ears. Any organisation was supposed to be subordinated to the communist party, it was written in Soviet constitution. Trained by communist party? Did they fight with folded issues of Pravda? Or they were trained in mysterious martial arts like lenin-do?
Standard "face the enemy" rhetoric: mix "communist party" into some nonsence and everybody believes it.
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Finnish concentration camps? We did have prison camps and people did die of starvation there, but not nearly as large percentage that never returned from russian prisons.
It's time to show up with some proof Boroda.
What about the russian concentration camps up in the siperia?
Only difference is that in those camps there were more russians than other nationalities. The politruks (party representators) could send any russian there with one letter. Just one careless word, critisising the party or life in russia. Conditions there guaranteed 80% casualty ratio if I recall correctly.
The soviet infiltrators were called desant's not partisans.
They were paramilitary infiltrators whose mission (if I understood correctly) was to spy behind enemy lines and sabotage. Sometimes they also did attack civillian villages, murdering the civillian population of the villages. Women, children, elderly people.
One civillian cottage counted a total of 50 bullet holes, all inside and naturally there were no survivors. Only a 4 year old child hidden outside witnessed the events.
Those warcrimes were too touchy issue to discuss untill recently. There are still men around with murdered families (while they were on the front themselves) that wouldn't hesitate a moment to kill any russian they met. I've seen them shake of hatred still, 60 years later when they talk about it.
But all this is in the past, both sides did bad things for sure.
Why should we continue the war on this BB?
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Mrsid, believe me or not, but now we have more people jailed then the whole USSR had in late-30s/early-40s, :( while the population of Russian Federadion is much smaller...
I am not going to persuade anyone here, and don't like to flame with people I respect. How did the flame start? Some provcator said something about commies? As usual... :(
Now, last question for me to help understanding some things.
There probably were Soviet saboteurs on Finnish territory in WWII, as well as Finnish groups at Soviet territory - it was war. They could kill "civilians", it could happen from both sides, but Soviet side never raised this question, it was satisfied by Finnish handling the war criminals.
Now, the question itself: were Finnish militia (please, can you spell it for me, in Russian transcribtion it's "øþöêîð", "shutskor") considered civilians or military? It can explain a lot.
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Well.. I am 99.9999% sure that finnish long range patrolmen or other military units did not kill any russian civilians during ww2.
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So am I about Soviet recon/diversionary units. So what?
As I told before - it's a question of faith, self-hypnosis, mental stability - call it whatever you want.
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None of them.
Soviet people seems to be totally brainwashed and history has been written wrong... sad... but it is not your fault.
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Originally posted by mipoikel
Soviet people seems to be totally brainwashed and history has been written wrong... sad... but it is not your fault.
Brainwashing can go both ways. At least the Soviet propaganda was easily identifiable and thus was more easily discounted.
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Originally posted by Boroda
It's all nothing more then fantasies of that "historian". Let's stick to the facts: USSR wanted to exchange Karelian Isthmus for the bigger territory in Karelia. When Finnish defence was broken - Finns agreed to that conitions, and Stalin stoped hostilities. He wasn't a stupid and didn't need the whole Finland.
Boroda it's just your words against a senior researcher, a doctor. You say "let's stick to the facts" and yet you don't provide any sources yourself to the discussion. Why do you expect anyone should believe you?? I've posted several quotes backing up my statements. Boroda, I challenge you to PROVE me wrong. I challenge you to find sourches that support your views. Obviously there isn't any since you do no effort to prove your points. Boroda, people don't believe this: "Of course it's true when I, Boroda, say it is. Everyone who thinks differently than me are wrong even if they have proof for their statements."
Some quotes:
"The deeds of the Finns during the Winter War gave others an example of how a people must fight for its independence."
Colonel General Dimitrij Volkogonov, February 1989
Why Soviet Colonel General says finns fought for their independence if what you say is true??
"The truth was on the side of the Finns when they heroically defended their freedom and their independence."
Historian Boris Sokolov, December 1989
See above.
"On November 30, 1939, it was Stalin's next move. 250,000 Russian troops under the cover of a coordinated air and artillery bombardment crossed into Finland to begin one of the least publicized and most costly campaigns in the annals of military history. It would be a "walk over;" General Meretskov estimated it would take only 10 to 12 days for his 26 well equipped 14,000 man divisions to reach Helsinki. Russian propaganda had been so convincing that it was felt that the Finns would be waving flags and welcoming the Red Army with open arms. Opposing him were nine poorly equipped 11,000-man Finnish divisions.
Meretskov never suspected that his army was about to plunge into a frozen hell, the second coldest winter since 1828, and oppose Mannerheim, probably one of the greatest defensive tacticians since Robert E. Lee. So confident were the Soviets of a quick victory march to Helsinki that they came with parade bands, but without winter uniforms, without supplies for a protracted campaign and without medical services. Even more sinister was the fact that Stalin had purged most of his regular army officers two years earlier and placed most of the responsibility for the army in the hands of political commissars."
Robert K. Maddock. jr
Source: http://www.kaiku.com/winterwar.html
Another site:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/FINNLIV.HTM
Originally posted by Boroda
Your wartime government was stupid enough to kill thousands of it's citizens in a futile effort to stop inevitable. That speech by Cajander is a typical example of political hypocricy, chest-banging and obvious lies.
Well, your wartime "government" was stupid enough to kill millions of its citizens just because they didn't fit the picture. I don't think I even need to go to the chest-banging and obvious lies... :rolleyes:
Finnish government did great job with the Finnsh Army in keeping Finland independent. Until you prove what you are saying you are just throwing insults at Finland.
Originally posted by Boroda
I think you missed my discussion with Staga about Finnish concentration camps in Karelia. I quoted Finnish sources translated to Russian. My biggest problem is that I can't even spell the names of Finnish researches in Latin :( And I hope that you will admit that Finns didn't stop at the old border. Again, what was the Finnish name for Petrozavodsk?
With a word "concetration camp" I understand something what was done in Germany during WWII. Concetration camp is a place where people are systematically exterminated. Sure there were prison camps in Finland just like in any country in a war during WWII but they had nothing to do with concetration camps.
Of course I admit that finns didn't stop at the old boarder because they didn't. I have no need to lie here. I'm here for the truth. Finland didn't have much choise but to cross the boarder because of the pressure from the germans. The fact that Finland didn't stop at the old boarder was one of the biggest reason why Finland managed to prolong the Soviet Great Attack enough in the end of The Continuation War.
Petrozavodsk probably means Petroskoi in finnish. Finns named Petroskoi as Äänislinna during the The Continuation War.
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The first use of Concentration camps as we understand them, was made by the Brits in South Africa during the Boer war at the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century.
The "Swastika" thing is starting to get up my nose. This symbol appears in many cultures, mostly as a symbol of some sort of positive energy or luck. It shows up reversed in many Amerindian societies too.
Some people go too far with some concepts and Nazi Germany (note Nazi - and not everybody in Germany followed Nazi ideology to it's fullest during the 1930s & '40s) was one of them.
No matter how you look at it some people are always going to suck at belonging to the "Human" species, most often due to ignorance and bigotry.
Me, I don't care, so long as I have coffee, and people don't poke me with sharp sticks on to regular a basis.
palef.
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Originally posted by SageFIN
Brainwashing can go both ways. At least the Soviet propaganda was easily identifiable and thus was more easily discounted.
And how do you think we have been brainwashed? Who did it? What WMaker writes is pure fact. You have all same resources available than others. Just read and learn. Ofcourse we have here in finland some people who believed what was told us from east. Are you one of them? :rolleyes: Wake up...
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Originally posted by mipoikel
And how do you think we have been brainwashed? Who did it? What WMaker writes is pure fact. You have all same resources available than others. Just read and learn.
I have done so already.
Originally posted by mipoikel Ofcourse we have here in finland some people who believed what was told us from east. Are you one of them? :rolleyes: Wake up...
You have it backwards. I don't believe what was told from the east, as I don't blindly believe anything regardless of the origin. I do agree that Finland's independence was obviously at stake.
Also, you might want to note, that I said "can go", by which I imply that there has not necessarily been brainwashing in Finland. However, I also meant that had there been, and had it been subtle enough, how would we know it.
The point I was trying to make was that adopting a "holier than thou" attitude when dealing with Finn-Soviet issues isn't going to help one bit.