Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Naudet on April 06, 2002, 06:49:55 AM
-
I flew the 109 G10 a bit lately and noticed that the MK108 is totaly underpowered. Especially against buffs and light GV.
i.e. i was unable to kill M3s from behind, no matter if i hit em 3, 5 or 8 times, the thing won't even get damaged.
And against buffs. In WW2 3-5 hits would ensure the kill of an B17. And what did i have to find out in AH, you need much more.
Tried to kill Ki67, hit it alltogether 6 times before it when down. § hits alone against the tail section.
Same against a B26. about 8-10 hits total. 2 to left elevator, 3 to right outter wing, 3 to tailplane.
Seems like i need much to many hits.
-
If Mk 108 is unpowered , you should try BK-5 cannon.. :D
This cannon was installed in some Me 410 and Me262 :p
BK-5 50mm cannon
SPECIFICATIONS
Weight: 135 lbs.
Muzzle velocity: 1,600 ft./sec.
Gun length overall: 45 in.
Barrel length: 23 in.
Maximum rate of fire: 45 rounds/min
-
Yeak but that 50mm was even harder to hit with (although higher velocity).
The mk108 needs alot of hits to down Bombers, even fighters such as LA7, P38 and F6F can take a hit and keep flying without trouble.
-
Only fighter I've seen take a hit and survive was the P38. I've hit P38s two or three times with one round of 30mm and had them live. Never seen any other fighter live.
-
I've seen two occasions.
Once I hit a La-7 at an unlikely distance with a lucky shot, hit his left wing and it began to leak fuel. But seeing that the La-7 flew for a long long time, I asked the pilot what's going on and he said he had flap damage. The fuel leak was the well-known 'fuel leak bug' that seems to bother La-5FNs and La-7s.
The other time was against a P-38. Hit his left fuselage, and the plane showed signs of radiator damage, but apparently no structural damage.
-
Hit a F-6F with a round in the wingroot, it flew on with a fuel leak and nothing more - f6f seems tougher than p-47.
-
Yup, done it against F6f and LA7's a few times, P38 however has often taken 30mm hits and ran away.
-
wish I could say thats happened to me wilbuz :)
-
The MK 108 was pretty useless against anything with armour. It was devastating when it exploded within aircraft structures. This from my next book:
"The 30 mm HEI M-Geschoss, fired from an MK 108, was also tested. Unsurprisingly, ten rounds fired at a Spitfire fuselage resulted in a score of three immediately lethal, seven probably lethal. Eleven rounds fired at a Blenheim achieved the same results, plus one doubtful. It was noted that the ammunition did not have much effect on heavy bomber fuselages (presumably because of the large volume for the explosion to dissipate into), but inflicted serious aerodynamic damage to the wings by blowing off the surfaces, and that the incendiary content was very effective in starting fires. German tests reflected these results, and also revealed significant differences in the effectiveness of the mine shells depending on the construction of the aircraft. Stressed-skin alloy monococque structures were most vulnerable to being blown apart. Steel structures clad with thin aluminium were less affected as the cladding quickly split, releasing the pressure before it had much time to damage the structure, and fabric-covered structures were damaged least of all. It was not only the blast which inflicted damage; after the war, the Americans test-fired an MK 108 HEI shell into the tail of a B-24 at a typical angle, characteristic of a tail interception by an Me 262. The "spray" pattern of very high velocity, very small fragments cut most if not all of the control cables and many of the longerons. It was assessed that the tail would have separated if the plane had been in flight; a performance which made a great impression on the observers."
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
-
hey tony, tell me what this (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=449757#post449757) is.
-
Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon (http://visi.net/~djohnson/armament/mk108.html)
-
I spoke once with Oblt. Franz Stigler who shot down many bombers with MK108. He said you needed 6 to 8 hits, closely spaced, on a wing. That would cause the wing to fail and send the bomber right down.
-
every time i fly a 109 with tater gun, I'm amazed at how easy it is to kill with very few rounds expended. Me262 with 4 Mk108s slices up buffs "like buttah". 109s take a few more rounds to kill buffs, but fighters go down without too much fuss. It's tough to get used to the severe drop of the round and low velocity, but for a skilled marksman it is an awesome weapon, IMHO.
-
i think is more that they used to be one hit kills ( there was a time when 1 or 2 30mm would do in a buff and somtimes a lank but now its rare. but they seem to be more accurate i liked it the old way but sho knows) they change stuff in this game and dont always tell us .
-
Seems concensus here is that the 108 is still very deadly as it should be.
Next whine please..
move along...nothing to see here.
-
It's deadly yes, as deadly as it should be? No
-
The tail surfaces of bombers especially the lanc and B26 seem especially resistant to AH MK108 fire. They are no bigger than the wings of fighters and should fail with only one or two hits.
If AH gets a B24 it better fail with one or two hits to the tail. USA tests proved this was true!
Also please look at that Blenheim photo and that 5 foot crater in the aft fuselage caused by a single MK108 hit in British testing.
IMHO as one who flew the single MK108 armed 109s in AH as much or more than anyone the MK108 is somewhat underpowered vs bombers, especially tail surfaces. Or those tail surfaces are are modeled specifically to resist 30mm fire.
-
Or the bleinhem is much smaller then a lanc or a B17 and there for there is more area to disipate the explosion in a larger airframe cavity.
-
pongo look at the goshdamn picture. one 30mm 108 rnd exploding on the tail of any buff we have and 98% chance its goin down or at least 80% loss of manuverablity. imagine this where could you glue a morter round to the surface of a b 17 tail and detonate it then fly the plane ? none i think.
-
b 36 excepted
-
So you're saying 30mm shells have the explosive capacity of mortar shells?
Can anyone else get any further from the truth?
-
Originally posted by lord dolf vader
pongo look at the goshdamn picture. one 30mm 108 rnd exploding on the tail of any buff we have and 98% chance its goin down or at least 80% loss of manuverablity. imagine this where could you glue a morter round to the surface of a b 17 tail and detonate it then fly the plane ? none i think.
What picture.
You think that 98% of bombers hit by a single 108 round were destroyed?
What possible statement by either side in WW2 supports that?
Do you know how much bigger even a 50mm mortar round is then a 30mm round? Hint. The smallest western morter the 60mm has a round that is like 8-12 30mm rounds strapped together.
-
I never any problem with the ah 30mm round. I had a lanc eat about 10 once and a temp take 5. They still died though.
Most of my buff kills take about 3-5 depending where I hit him. I have numerous times killed buffs with 1 30mm.
Something i learned from flying il2 though. I never shoot from dead 6. I always go for a deflection shot where I have a greater probrability of hitting something big.
Lancs die , atleast for me, 1 ping to the wing root. I go up and under and fire at d200 or so. b26s are toughest. I head shot b17s mostly.
1 thing I have noticed though that theres sometimes a delay. I'll make a pass get a couple of hits then I pull out and extend then the buff blows up. I wonder if what your seeing is this same delay where 3-5 will kill it but you keep firing ......I dunno.
Ever fly wbs lol how about there 30mm fer ah :eek:
-
Don't shoot at the fuselage with 30mm+. I've landed hits with the 37mm on the yak to the fuselage of fighters and not had them go down. I've never seen the same if I land a hit to a wing though, it just breaks off instantly. Even on bombers, 1-2 hits to a point on the wing is enough to break it off.
-Soda
The Assassins
-
I've just being doing some more research into original documents, and discovered that towards the end of the war the Luftwaffe was fielding a new kind of ammunition for use against bombers.
It was called the M.44 and consisted of an M-Geschoss with a thicker and stronger shell body (which put up the weight somewhat) intended to penetrate deep within the wings of heavy bombers in order to reach the fuel tanks. Once there, it detonated instantly because it was fitted with a hydrostatic fuze which was triggered by entering a liquid. The shell was mostly filled with incendiary material, but there was enough HE to blow a big hole in the fuel tank lining and distribute the incendiary material.
It was certainly used in 20mm calibre and fighter pilots reported great success. I have put together enough information to suggest that it was developed in 30mm as well, but I don't know if it saw action.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
-
I always find it amusing when I see players looking at the Aces High world through a straw.
like when p38 dweebs say the p38 is porked, the luftwimps complain that the 30mm tater gun is broken, or when someone who knows nothing about aerodynamics says the flight model is porked because a plane with full fuel, ammo and bombs is slower than when its lite.
1. the p38 isnt porked
2. 30mm kicks bellybutton (ask nath and leviathn they tested it)
3. the flight model of AH is awsome
the only thing that somtimes makes hits wierd that ive seen is the internet loosing the packets. then no matter what gun you use it takes way more hits to kill someone under those circumstances. and with HTC's current ISP for the MA it happens quite a bit.
no sniveling, shut up and fly
-
lord dolf vader said:
...imagine this where could you glue a morter round to the surface of a b 17 tail and detonate it then fly the plane ? none i think.
End Quote.
Well, in the sky over South Viet Nam a Goony (well an AC-47) had a mortar round hit and detonate on the wing.
It landed back at the field :D
-
pongo you were right sorry it was a bad example. 108 slug .73lbs
M49A2 HE (60mm mortar) 3.07 lbs ( i guess the propelent is included in the mortar weight) (but more like 4.5 times more even if the propelent is not included) ;)
this is the story i had read about mk108 power/accuracy
"The material is from "Messerschmitt Bf109" by Heinz Nowarra. The test was at theroretical one by ballistics experts at Rheinmetall-Borsig assuming a range of 500m in a rear quarter attack against a stable 4 engine bomber NOT taking evasive action. It was estimated 48 rounds fired would give a 50% chance of the 4 hits required to shoot down the bomber."
found this in a thread" Accuracy test of 30mm" on this board .i thought i remembered it stated 2 hits and didnt realize it was a theoretical gestimate. in retrospect i think the 30 mm have been changed. befor they were way to inacurate but perhaps to powerfull. now they are weaker but more accurate. i.e. closer to real life. i was so wrong i will now go to the doghouse.
-
oops just re read the original , i dont jabo so i dont know about it aginast land vehicals.
-
Originally posted by Citabria
porked because a plane with full fuel, ammo and bombs is slower than when its lite.
Hey tard, no one said anything about loading bombs.