Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hornet on August 01, 2001, 02:05:00 PM
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I pay $30 monthly to HTC for air combat. I do not expect to walk into the European Air War. Nor on a weeknight, would I want to. I like being able to log into AH knowing I only have 40mins of flight time and be confident that I can get into a few scraps and put a little work into my acm.
Let me preface this a bit before going further; my background is in Air Warrior, and I think that game had both the respect for the MA and the respect for historical accuracy that this game seems to be in danger of being torn apart over.
In AW, scenarios were king. I know in my squad we jokingly referred to it as The Show, and I think it was widely acknowledged throughout the community that a pilot proved his worth in scenarios.
The MA was nothing more than a practice arena. There was no pretense of historical accuracy. The MA was there to get your reps in working on whatever part of your game needed work, deflection shooting, e-management, lead-turns etc. I'm not a diehard furballer or a pure K/D warrior either. I see them both as complimentary aspects in a fighter pilots skill set. I chase proficiency in both from month to month.
I'm also not saying I do not respect the skill set of "scenario flying", I respect it very much. But I've always felt that flying under scenario rules all the time actually hurts you as a pilot. Some skills are easier to maintain than others (take a year off and come back if you don't believe me). First thing that struck me after the time off was how I could stay alive quite well, but my ability to kill was suspect, then I'd start to press...and that's when I die. Your timing, gunnery, ability to track multiple enemies through a furball etc., these types of skills are so tough to keep current, so much so that you may feel like you've lost half a step in the MA even after a long scenario.
It must be the Warbirds influence, but there seems to be a large push in AH to turn the MA into an ongoing scenario. In my opinion, that's a pipe dream. Unless you have 1 life to live and are flying under orders with a flight of guys depending on you to do your job, we're all just dweebs running on the hamster wheel.
This recent talk of killing dar and icons in the MA really concerns me. It seems like an effort to turn the MA into something its not. If there is enough people that want this, I think its best that HTC open up a HA, put the no dar, no icons, RPS etc. in that arena.
But in my mind, the MA will always be just practice. In a scenario setting, go ahead kill the dar, kill the icons. I'm confident that I can manage in that environment. I'm confident because my goal is to complete a defined objective, stay alive and win.
The realism settings are not an annoyance in a scenario because I'm not concerned about fitting the most practice into a short time period like I would be on an average weeknight in the MA. The MA currently has an AWACS lookdown gps display. So what? I'm not on the hamster wheel to prove I'm the second coming of Galland, I'm there work on my game.
I agree, forcing more "realistic" gameplay aspects into the MA will push people into flying with more of a scenario mindset. Where I disagree is the assumption that more of that type of flying is a healthy thing.
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Great post Hornet...I agree totally. If you want historical match-ups, show up for scenarios. I dont attend very many of them but I know the attendance isnt all that great. There seems to be a lot of guys yelling for an HA but then they dont support the historical events when we have them, so what kind of message does that send to HTC? I think Dale and Doug and the rest of the gang know what they are doing regarding the presence of a HA in the game....the numbers simply arent there yet.
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hornet.. i think your points are good and I agree with them. I know if I take a couple of weeks off I will get murdered in the furballs for a while.
I agree that the MA should be a fun place to get in a couple of action filled sorties in your 40 min or so. I wouldn't listen to much to the flabby vets on this board. I really doubt that HTC will do much to hurt getting into the action in the MA.
recently, when field closure became too easy and thus action was slowed noticibly... it was fixed.
lazs
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Amen brother. Had me laughing about the "hamster wheel". Thanks for a respectful, thought out post.
Interesting that I also come from an AW background (of old- back in 93-94).
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My first online air combat sim/game was Confirmed Kill v.91 (late '93).. been flying ever since.
I agree with everything you said Hornet.
-SW
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Good post Hornet! I like the Hamster wheel analogy also. :D
Zippatuh
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There are very good points within your post Hornet.
My opinion is that some guys are getting bored and want to try something new and different from what we have now. As a result we get IDEAS posted all over the Board here.
These IDEAS help HTC and Aces High evolve. Some of the ideas are great and are implemented...others are WAY OUT THERE! HTC knows their stuff and will implement a good idea when the time is right.
Until then....more snap shots and check 6's will appease the historic crowd and make AH more challenging.
More snap shots and check 6's will enable busy virtual pilots like myself to take part in them.
We have a large scenario coprs and at any giving time I'm sure there is at least one available and flying in the MA every night of the week. Lets put up a snap shot nightly for 1 week.....I'll bet the numbers steadily improve night to night.
If they don't then it's obvious we are not ready to make drastic changes in the MA nor should we implement a HA!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: skernsk ]
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I agree as well. I've been flying combat flight sims since 1993. Keep both separate but available. Then you offer more to a broader audience who like different things. I would enjoy some scenarios but not all the time. Scenarios add more realism and teamwork to the mix with specific goals. The MA has more a furball mentality but that's ok.
Sometimes I get a bit frustrated in the MA because you will encounter many airplane types when engaging the nme. Case in point, say I'm flying a Spitfire and engage a Zero and a FW190 (from 2 different axis countries). You are now required to carefully balance your fighting tactics between BnZ with the Zero and TnB with the FW190. Difficult to do. Now throw in a P51 and a Yak and NOW what do you do??? I'd venture to say most historical pilots usually encountered only 1-2 nme aircraft types so their tactics were pretty stable since they were flying in an operational theatre against a single country. Even with this situation, the MA as it stands now is a good place to fight. Period.
This brings me to my next topic on icons in the MA. There's been a lot of talk about eliminating them. Face it, in the MA, because of the situation I've described, you need them. P47s escorting B17s over Europe were pretty sure they'd intercept FW190s or ME109s. Not Yaks, Zero's, Spits, P51, Hellcats, N1Ks, La7s etc. Airplane icon types are necessary to equalize this situation of encountering many aircraft types. Also, if for no other reason, because squad mates are also flying a mix of Allied and Axis airplane types, there is nothing that defines a con as friendly or not. You're flying a P51 and your wingman is flying a N1K but other nme planes are ALSO N1Ks. How do you tell them apart without some kind of icon? Enough said.
SpitLead out!
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Perfect posting, Hornet.
Thanks.
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Hornet:
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In AW, scenarios were king.
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The MA was nothing more than a practice arena.
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Exactly the way I've always seen it.
It's been pretty frustrating, though, to find out that in AH scenarios are not king, not queen, not even rook, knight, or bishop. Hell, I think it'd even be a stretch to call them 'pawn'. :(
anRky
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Really good post, Hornet. I still don't agree 100% with you, but you're the first one (since a long time) who really explain his point calmly and exhaustively without trying to brute-force his ideas in other's minds....
Agreed: MA is the place to go when you want to fight (= have fun). MA can be considered as a general purpose training arena.
Scenarios are for historical setups/settings, where you have to prepare carefully your flight and never forget you only have one life.
Not so agreed: MA isn't an exclusively ACM training arena. Everybody should have the right to train and have fun there: furballers, lone-hunters, kamikazes, bomber-boys, drivers, sailors, chuters.... If you want to nurse a particular ACM at ease, it's always possible to grab a sparring partner and go to TA.
My only concern is some kind of tone-down of the difficulty (I don't use the world realism) in the MA with the time. I just don't want that too much concessions intended to make the game easier to newbies/lazy customers, turn this superb sim into some kind of Fighter Ace where 90% fly in the relaxed realism arena (= 3D Quake) while you can roam the Historical arena for hours without meeting someone. I still have shivers when I remember the horrid mixed-FM arena in Warbirds: nobody was flying 'easy' but the newbies, or so they said....but when they finally decided to turn back the arena on realistic FM, what a racket!!! Most people take the easy way when given the choice (I'm not different, i.e. I still let the fuel selection on Auto...)
Leave the MA as it is?...okay. Reduce a bit BAR/DOT settings? I'm all for it (cfr the last posts of
<A HREF="http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010800 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010800))
But please don't tweak down DAR/icons/FM/gunnery settings anymore.
Too hard: the sim gets boring
Too easy: the game gets quickly boring as well
de Selys
Airman
332nd Flying Mongrels
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]
Godamn URL looks ugly but finally works!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]
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Heyas Hornet :)
As one who flew with you back in those old days, I couldn't agree with you more.
Thanks for your opinion and more importantly the manner in which you presented it.
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Well said Hornet!!!
Gunner <CAF>
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heyas Rude, we'll have to wing up sometime :)
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Good points de Selys.
My focus has always been fighters, and my original post used acm as a primary example. But you are right, the MA is for everyone. I've never begrudged the buff guys, after all they often are the ones that win events for you ;).
I'm in favor of the best flight models possible, the best ballistics and damage models possible. That's the meat and bones of the sim. I believe the goal for the MA should always be realistic combat, not a realistic air war. Leave the arena as the open, free-flowing, chaotic place that it is.
I hope that coming out as an advocate for keeping the MA as it is doesn't label me as an "air quaker". A push to see the MA for what it is, while in turn seeking to give scenarios their proper place in the AH community benefits the realism side of AH far more of a service than simply advocating a new HA ever could (something that I am in favor of). I haven't flown an AH scenario yet, but if real-life is cooperative I aim too this fall.
I realize that different interests compel us to play this game. For some its a fascination with the machines of the time, for me it was a fascination with the men who flew them.
I wonder what Hartman, Sakai, Blakeslee, and the rest of that unique fraternity would say about our MA. Sometimes I think a place like that must exist somewhere for them. It's a fighter pilot's Nirvana. Almost as if there is a magical 30 minutes of time between when the last North American players logs for the night and the first Asian player logs on when those aces have a chance to fly. Their youths restored shiny new just like their famous mounts, they get to dance again, only this time free from their idiot commanders, the politics, the bitterness, the loss of war.
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Wow! Who's going to be the first to flame Hornet? lol Hornet you cant go wrong with a post like that, Nice job :)
oct
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Hornet, <S>.
Now I agree completely with you.
It will be a pleasure to be shot down by you this tour!
de Selys
Airman
332nd Flying Mongrels
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I think the Norse had it best when they described Valhalla. The Valkries would swoop down over the battlefield, pick up a true warrior and wisk him away. There his days would be spent in combat, and his nights in feasting & storytelling.
Looked at in that way the Main certainly is a fighter pilots heaven. No death, no fear of the flames as your plane augers down.
Good post Hornet!
The cool thing about it all is that HT does keep his thumb firmly planted on the pulse of this community. While maintaining a very clear vision of what is & what isn't good for gameplay.
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second post in the threae is a winner too hornet...
Oddly.... it sounds a little different when I say it. something I can't quite out my finger on.. probluy the spelling.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
second post in the threae is a winner too hornet...
Oddly.... it sounds a little different when I say it. something I can't quite out my finger on.. probluy the spelling.
lazs
I'ts not your spelling...You were just pushing forward completely different ideas. Remember when you wanted bombers removed or field capture made impossible in the MA??
de Selys
[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]
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Originally posted by deSelys:
I'ts not your spelling...You were just pushing forward completely different ideas. Remember when you wanted bombers removed or field capture made impossible in the MA??
de Selys
ah the vaunted Lazs arena where everything remains the same
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bombers don't have to be removed just take away their bombs and guns. Failing that... give em realistic targets and gunnery (including bomb accuracy and effect).
field capture... I have said make it easier with a lot of fields so that it is worthwhile and adds to the action or make it harder to simpley close the fighter operations. HTC has done the latter so things are pretty decent right now. I still think fighters should be able to come up till the field is completely closed but we are in pretty good shape right now.
If you prefer "realism" then we could have revetments for a hundred ( planes scattered around and when there were no more planes in the revetments then none could take off. regardless...
The MA needs to be a place where a person with 30-40 min can get into a fite or 3 that isn't too lopsided. I look at the kills per time stat to see how the arena is doing personally.
lazs
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Originally posted by Hornet:
It must be the Warbirds influence, but there seems to be a large push in AH to turn the MA into an ongoing scenario. In my opinion, that's a pipe dream. Unless you have 1 life to live and are flying under orders with a flight of guys depending on you to do your job, we're all just dweebs running on the hamster wheel.
This recent talk of killing dar and icons in the MA really concerns me. It seems like an effort to turn the MA into something its not. If there is enough people that want this, I think its best that HTC open up a HA, put the no dar, no icons, RPS etc. in that arena.
Nice post.
I don't want to turn the Main Arena into an Historical Arena, but I do want to see some kind of concessions made to reduce the information you get on your radar screen.
Point #1:
Here's a hypothetical situation (happens all the time in the main arena) I'm flying along in friendly territory at 15,000 ft. I look to my level 2 o'clock, I see 2 cons, I tap ESC, I look at my clipboard radar, it's showing one baddie, one friendly. hmmm, I hit ESC again to lose my map, I point the nose of my plane at one of the cons, tap ESC again to pull up my clipboard, I use my brackets to zoom all the way in, my lil plane on the clipboard is pointed at the red dot, tap ESC to lose the clipboard again. Now I know the dot in the sky that my nose is pointing to is a bad guy, and I haven't even gotten an icon yet!
Point #2:
One of your countrymen get the wonderful idea to run a mission to bomb the enemy HQ. You are 100 miles from it. You have 6-8 B17's hit the runway to roll on their bombing mission. The second they hit the runway, they are on enemy radar (they haven't even left the fargin ground). The enemy sees the huge sector bars, puts 2 and 2 together and know they have an HQ raid to intercept. So as the B17's are lumbering along at 5,000 ft, enemy fighters are coming in hot. And you know what? They aint got a snowballs chance of making it to their target. This happens a lot. I've seen it many times.
Hornet, how many missions have you led in the main arena? That is a well written post you've got there, but how well rounded is your experience here? I don't mean that in a scathing way, but there's a lot of things to consider. I love to furball, I run a lot of missions, I do some bombing, and I think we need something done to the radar.
I'm for no in-flight radar. I don't think we'll get that, so I'll have to settle for some concessions, if that's what we get.
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WTFG Hornet, Proud of ya bro!
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Originally posted by lazs1:
I agree that the MA should be a fun place to get in a couple of action filled sorties in your 40 min or so. I wouldn't listen to much to the flabby vets on this board. I really doubt that HTC will do much to hurt getting into the action in the MA.
Ok MA should be a fun place for fighters but...
Originally posted by lazs1:
bombers don't have to be removed just take away their bombs and guns. Failing that... give em realistic targets and gunnery (including bomb accuracy and effect).
...the MA has to be realistic for bombers??
:rolleyes:
All this is in the same short thread? WTG, Lazs...
Go get a cold shower and some sleep.
de Selys
Airman
332nd Flying Mongrels
[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]
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HB, no inflight radar is a 9-5 American time possibility, yet still not a MA good idea.
If you had to look at the map offpeak without cons, it would be the "King vs. King" boring chess match WWIIOL in all it's realism is, BORING.
Things change fast in the MA, and if it was a primetime scenario of sorts, which it isn't, it would still be not what you want. The fog of war is the bore of war.
Sorry.
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hblair.. point one. so what if you know which plane is the enemy at 15k i mean how realistic is it for 3 individuals to be at 16k hunting each other anyway? You still have to kill him... dar doesn't do it for you. Ohh... I get it... you guys can't "sneak up" on each other.. sheesh.
point two.. who cares about missions. they waste a lot of resources that could be better used to make big furballs and kill fields that could be used for getting into the action. The only "good" mission is one to take an enemy field that then puts you closer to the fite otherwise.... why bother?
deselys... get a grip.. I don't advocate the bombs as used on fighters either. fix the bombs and sights. I don't advocate that pilots should be able to switch to gunner posititon on single engine planes either. gunnery should be the same for all planes caliber for caliber.
What I see is a huge map with a bunch of guys happily fiting between 2 very unimportant close fields out of many and... A LONE bomber comes over at 10-20k and bombs the fighter hangers and either dies or wanders off.. Why should one no skill attention starved dweeb be able to spoil it for so many? Airfields are not realistic targets for bombers in any case.
lazs
[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Originally posted by lazs1:
point two.. who cares about missions. they waste a lot of resources that could be better used to make big furballs and kill fields that could be used for getting into the action. The only "good" mission is one to take an enemy field that then puts you closer to the fite otherwise.... why bother?
This is why your opinion doesn't mean much, you are a one dimensional pilot. You have never used the mission planner lazs, sorry, but you don't know squat about half of what's being discussed here. Being a furballer is just fine. But being a furballer and pretending you know about how bombers, jabos, etc. should be used in the game is a joke.
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Hblair, thanks. You're right on the spot.
From now on, I'll stop reacting to Lazs1 posts (although it will be darn hard...). It just ain't worth the energy. The guy is exclusively focused on his field of interest, egocentric to the extreme, and won't ever make the effort to understand others points of view.
Lazs1, I hope you'll find your furballer paradise someday...outside AH if possible.
de Selys
Airman
332nd Flying Mongrels
[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]
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Hblair,
Thanks for your post, it was one of the few instances amongst the multiple threads on this topic where I've seen someone make an argument against radar from a Gameplay perspective and not under the banner of historical accuracy or realism.
It may sound like semantics, but that was, and remains the critical point I was trying to make. Making changes to the radar - or any facet of the MA - in the name of historical accuracy will always be an exercise in frustration because the character and foundation of the arena is not built (flight models and ballistics aside) with historical accuracy in mind.
Regarding the two points you brought up on how the current radar setup affects gameplay:
The dot dar...The majority of my time is spent in the P51B. I believe the dot dar hurts e-fighters more than the strict furballers, pulling up the kneeboard can spoil a nice bounce.
But I do not see the e-fighters of AH really suffering. I get a fair share of bounces for kills. The 'heads up' warning the dot dar offers to the Spit5 and 202 guys may be a slight annoyance to the Doras and 51D's of the arena. But considering the fact that a lot of people feel the MA is already too fast, its an annoyance that at least attempts to offer some parity for the early war guys.
The second issue is a tricky one. I spend my time in fighters, but the buff guys gotta be able to compete as well. But they should still have to compete. AH is meant to be difficult wouldn't you agree? Now a feat like killing HQ in fighter terms would be at least a large handful of kills. The success rate of HQ runs should be low, just like the fighter guys do not expect a 5+ K/S. I think introducing a new avenue for the buff guys to display their talent, like no bardar under 500ft is a good compromise that will make gameplay more exciting for both buffs and their interceptors.
But I am glad the debate has turned towards weighing the merits of gameplay adjustments. I think it will yield much better results than a blind crusade to bring realism to the MA will. Just knocking out radar is not the answer, if for no other reason than the simple fact that the non-North America prime-time players will have a very difficult time finding a fight within a given window of time.
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well hblair u have a point... I don't use the mission planner. I don't do missions and I don't fly bombers. I don't drop bombs either. i don't think you have to do these things to comment on the fact that bombs are wrong. blast radius, bomb sights, bomb accuracy and the targets are all beyond silly. if i am wrong so be it but i di see the effect of bombs in AH.
Gameplay? Missions? all missions are gamey, unrealistic and childish in AH. Only quakers would participate. That's fine but ya gotta leave the word "sim" out of the missions and the bombers. Until the bombers, bombs and targets are made more realistic... there is no point in even trying them out. The most cursory glance (the only kind I have done) at the "missions", and "bombers", bombs, bomb sights and targets will be sufficient for most people.
Go ahead, do the quake strat thing but don't try to pass it off as "historical" or realistic or even good gameplay. capture the flag and shutting down fighter operations without capturing a field is not realistic or good gameplay. A lone high alt bomber destroying fighter operations at a feild is not good gameplay. You don't have to drop many virtual bombs to figure that one out.
lazs