Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: hazed- on April 07, 2002, 10:09:08 AM
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Im becoming a little discouraged by the MA type attitude to fighting im seeing more and more of in the CT of late.
A lack of interest in any organisation or missions etc.
Same kill no matter what attitude
Not allowing players the chance to launch even when no capture is in progress
Even kill stealing on occation
Players with warpy connects continueing to fly without relogging.
MILKRUNNING!
etc etc
People! why are we building this CT?
Wasnt this supposed to be the place where we see more realistic stuff? but with concessions to the low numbers we see in there?
Squadron flying and tactics? Large bomber formations making the attack clear rather than solo milkrun behaviour in order to allow the few enemy on to have a chance of attack?
allowing a severly damaged aircraft to ditch rather than totally destroy them as they scrape to a stop? do we want to piss off the few people we have in the CT?
NO vulching just for kills!!!but for a capture only?
no gangbanging?
I really thought i was going to see more cooperation or at least small groups flying together.Some people in the CT try to consider it a one life event like a scenario and to be vutched or shot whilst ditching is a real spoiler for their chosen style of play.
Honestly if you want to kill everything no matter what, what the hells wrong with the MA?
I think last night in particular made me feel the CT is never going to be the 'different' type of arena it promised to be.there were whole squads doing milkruns where there were no players!.Its drifting quickly away from the historic arena into another mindless base swapping checkers game and i think my interest will soon go at this rate.
I can only hope that new maps like the tunisia map make for so much fun as to make the behaviour irrelevant.
I'll continue to try to play with a little bit of consideration for others and attempt to organise missions but im a lot less enthusiastic after what i saw in the CT yesterday.
I must say i also feel sabre that your setup is encouraging this gangbang mentality due to the fact that IJN forward bases have 1 or two aircraft of limited ability facing a CV fleet (or two ) with a wide choice of aircraft flying off them.
If this is indeed trying to be closer to an historical setup I have a suggestion i think might ease this.
Make an idividual Fleet use an individual plane type.One CV for bombers like the TBM and another for F6F's and another for F4us.
And if you are going to put in aircraft like the F6f and F4uds and P38s then you are going to HAVE to allow the IJN NIKjs from many ore bases.Make them high perk costs to control overuse rather than limiting them to fields far from most of the action.
Another problem is the fact that the IJN have no way to destroy the Carrier other than masses of seperate attacks or a mission filled with pilots which as i have said above just isnt happening in the CT. The ki67 has to fly below 200mph and below 200 feet to fire its torpedo but unlike the ju88 this is almost impossible to acheive with the same level of effort.Its damned hard and if the ships gunners fire in their general direction they are garenteed death.
So what you ask? well in order for the torpedo to reach a ship it MUST be dropped inside the light ack range at a slow and steady 200 mph.Who couldnt hit an aircraft flying this way?
So level bomb it you say? thats level bomb it with a minimum of 8 ki67s???
theres barely 8 people who would fly the ki67 let alone together.
dive bomb it? well this is probably the only way it can be done but again requires the player to basically suicide into the carrier. Encouraging that same MA behaviour i came into the CT to avoid!!
I dont really know what the answer is but after playing as the allies and trying to have some good tangles in dogfights and realising its best to BnZ only (unless in F6f) and then finding it rather easy to kill or run I changed back to IJN (even though frustration almost caused me to quit the CT altogether last time i flew as them) to see it fro the other side again.
two words sums it up for me and thats 'frustration' and 'unfair'.
I know the real US armies and navies had a huge advantage towards the end of the real war but you cant expect players to suffer the same lack of machines as the real japanese did and actually enjoy themselves.
We need to make it a little more 'what if' on the tactical side whilst trying to maintain a realistic layout of tools to use.
If there was only 200 nikjs made 1000's of zeros and a good number of Ki61s but ALSO many other types we dont have in AH like ki84's /44's/43's/27's J2M's/45's/10's/Aichi D3a's/B7A's and all manner of different types they could have used for the situations like attacking fleets or defending bases THEN WE MUST allow the IJN to have competative aurcraft even if it means seeing a lot of N1K2's flying in the CT until we get a decent choice of the other types.Hell even if the ones we have 'represent' other models like you have done with the P38 or F4us in the past! wasnt there many more N1K1's around? (1000 i think) and over 400 N1K2J's from 1943 onwards.
If the home island in this map is supposed to represent the mainland of japan dont you think they would have formidable capabilities?
I really feel it needs considering here.Personally I will try to soldier on but i really cant promise ill use the CT in such a one sided battle.Ive seen it from both sides and i am being honest here.I am not whineing for the axis, Im calling for a parity in the peices of this game.
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I agree hazed 100%
I have fun flying a Zeke and get a kill now and again.
Brady and I vrs Kieran and eddiek and a couple of other allieds had a good bit off fun. We lunched a few zekes at a base to get the guys up and after a bit we had some really fun fights win or lose it was S! all round. Ofcourse there was the joking and what not.
Then someone on the allied side decided to aim there fleet at ours and before you knew it there was a f4 hoin and runnin to ack.
They began shelling our fleet which I wouldn't have cared about but it was a sector and a half to the next closest field. There were only 3 axis that I saw.
After getting nailed by 5 inch at 2 k in a turn fight with the f4 ho ack runner I logged. I dont wanna fly 35 miles in a zeke to find a fight and then to have the guy ack hug. I guess I coulda been a dweeb and did the same or got in the cruisers guns and sunk their fleet but that crap is no fun to me. I just wanna up fight till I die and start over.
I would love it if kill messages were turned off and if there was no base capture and no score. But I am the by far minority. This is the very reason pac set ups suk. Theres always much more bs going on in these set ups compared to any other.
Its a matter of parity. By that I mean ijn/a has no jabo and no way to counter milkrunning cv parking or land grabs in general with out 10 plus folks working together.
I really did have a fun time yesterday S! to the folks who were there. When the early pac war planes come I can see the potential for some awesome setups. I never cared for pac stuff at all. But my interest is growing and I am eagerly waiting till the day when I up an early Zeke or val off midway. :)
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Hazed and Wotan.
I feel the same as both of you do, even tho for My Squad, we live and dream of the PTO set ups. As a Naval Unit, any time we can get Cv's, that is what we do. All of Us in the VF-27 comment and send suggestions concerning the IJ Naval and Army birds, Because We want Decent fights and fun times when We come into the CT for our Squad times. Milkrunning is something We avoid, as a unit. As far as parking our CV's off an enemy base, Most of us will do our best to move them back to the Open Sea where they Belong. As far as hugging the Ack, I admit it happens, by both sides. Last night (saturday) I had just upped off a CV, and had a NiK above in the Ack, so I climbed and did my best to engage. It turned out to be Hazed in the niki, and I aplogize now if you think I was huggin the ack. The truth is, I was concentratin so Hard on keeping your position in My SA that I didn't pay any attention to the fact that we were fighting inside the ack envelope.
One solution that is feasable to me is to make the ack deadly to ALL. That should be a simple thing for the CM's to set, although as I am not a CM, I can be totally wrong on that thought. I did like a previous set up, the Sicily I beleive, where the CV Groups were separate from the Cruiser Battle Groups. So far as I could tell, that stopped the CV parking off an airfield. That and having a LONG respawn time for CV's that got sunk.
As a Squadron doing Strat Missions on our Squad Nights, we always fly High, so Bar-Dar can paint us. We want the Enemy to find us. We want our Missions to be Contested, so that if successful, we have a sense of accomplishment as a group. And if the Enemy is better than we are, then to them. If they beat us, they at least know they had a fight.:)
I totally agree with the point that some parity needs to be reached, for an Allies vs Axis set up. An Early war plane set is a much desired and requested thing, by all players, as seen on this BB. Maybe we will get some birds eventually that will even things up. I'm personally waiting for an F4F vs A6M2, and a Bunch of our Squad want to see the P-40 brought in. Flying Tigers over Burma, lol. I really do hope to see the CT Thrive and Grow, as I don't like or fly the MA.:( I get absolutely no enjoyment from an endless furball gangbang. I want My Game time to have a purpose, else I see no need to pursue it. I get that here in the Ct, win or lose, because I know that I will find a target that is being contested. :)
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Hazed in response:
" A lack of interest in any organisation or missions etc."
Well i realy think it depends on the time, I have joined mishion with you on several ocations where quiet a few people were involved, I think that if we have a dozen or so people on and they are defending a base and you post a mishion they may be ocupied you know what I mean:) In general people like your mishions I know I do, I also know I am not always available to join them, nontheless your effort is appricated.
"Same kill no matter what attitude"
I am not shure what this means...
"Not allowing players the chance to launch even when no capture is in progress"
I think that to expect people to allow players to up when they can prevent this is unrealistic, Granted their are exceptions, their should be. The game should be more than kill or be killed, I think the generaly friendly chat on the message buffer is evedence of that, people have time in the CT to say more often than not compared to the MA.Personaly I expect no quarter to be given me never, howeaver I will on ocation extend it, you don't give a gift with intention of expecting one back.
"Even kill stealing on occation"
This could be as much a fault of lag as anything else or a SA problem, Personaly I figure that unless I finish my kill sombody else will, but to say that they intenionaly stole it is difucult to prove.
"Players with warpy connects continueing to fly without relogging"
Well....that suck's huh:)
MILKRUNNING!
It hapens, Personaly I play AH to take bases and like to fight my way to and from them, The primary catalist for fighting in AH is the base capture aspect, it brings us together:) Howeaver when atacking a base somtimes nobody contests it, I realy dont see anymore how we can say somone is milkruning if their is an enemy in country, the enemy, if they are present, are alowing their foe to atack a base uncontested.
The map we are curentaly using has a very wide front for CT use in fact it is almost to big, but we (CT stafers) have a limited number of maps at hand. The situation is improving howeaver, we have some very nice maps coming, Tunisia is taylor made for CT use.Also NUTTZ is working on the Kuriels wich should give us a very nice map indead.
The lack of SB's on the curent map (except on the main islands) does impact game play for both sides, howeaver the alies can sink a CV in 4 sorties as aposed to the eight that the Japanese have to launch.
Personaly I realy enjoy flying the Japanese planes we have they are almost without exception a pure joy to fly as apposed to those alied planes that well...
Wotan and I didhave a blast in those fights off 28 yesterday, I dare say we faired beter than they did:)
I do hope we see more Japanese planes added in the future (Italian,and Russian to:),) I suspect we will:)
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brady just to clear things ..i dont consider an openly visible attack on a base a milk run.Milkrun is when players sneak in with no dar contact or like i saw yesterday southern end of the map around a35 shelling the town from a cv without upping any planes until it was open for an LVT.
I happened quite by accident to up in a Ki67 and was testing speeds to drop torpedos. I saw the fleet and thought it was a stray rook fleet and when it fired at me i thought ahh rooks still fire so it would make a perfect practice target.but no, i was annihilated as i approached by fleet auto-simple-to-fire-flak and called it out on radio that they were bishops!
as i took off for my second attampt pow A35 was lost.they were obviously mid capture when i arrived.
This sort of thing i detest. Why dont they play offline? its the same thing.
as for vulching, like i said i wont vulch players if they are just upping to fight and im not part of a capture attempt.If it is capture ill kill anything that walks crawls or breathes :D
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Hazed,
My squad, The Buccaneers, and I were part of the attacks and captures of A-45 and A-28.
We died.
We Furballed,
We gangbanged,
We worked together.
We fought high and low,
We jaboed ack and strat stuff down,
We beat the fight down and we vulched,
We closed bunches of hangers.
We sunk your CV and fleet.
We captured your bases.
We were organized.
We had a mission.
We had fun.
Sorry.
(Now get over it.)
eskimo
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BTW,
When the Buccaneers logged on we spent at least an hour doing formation and element practice as well as carrier quals. We did this for fun and as a warm-up 100 miles away from the nearest enemy or enemy base.
I looked at the roster as we lined up for our first take off.
17 to 17, but 10 of us allies were not a factor. So the Japanese enjoyed a 17 to 7 superiority for awhile. I didn't hear any complaining then.
eskimo
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LOL Hazed:)
Well what i ment is that with the new flashing base icon and the audio warning it is generaly hard to do a milkrun, except on this map it is so large that an atack aganst a sector miles away may go unnoticed.
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Easy answer: perk the n1k in CT, remove the spitIX, perk the spit V/seafire (seafire cheaper), leave the spit 1 unperked.
That takes care of the quake crowd.
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I'd love to see the Ki-44-IIb and Ki-84-Ia.
Ki-44-IIb Shoki:
Maximum Speed: 376mph.
Initial Climb: 3,940ft.
Armament: Four 12.7mm Type I, two in fuselage and two in wings, with provision for 2 100kg bombs.
Total Built: 1,233, all versions.
4 12.7mm machine guns is a light but usable level of firepower.
The climb and speed would make this a viable fighter against the USN and USAAF fighters that are available for the CT environment.
Ki-84-Ia Hayate:
Maximum Speed: 392mph
Initial Climb: 3,600ft.
Armament: Two 20mm Ho-5 cannon in the wings with 150 rounds each and two 12.7mm Type 103 in the fuselage with 350 rounds each, with provision for two 250kg bombs under the wings.
Total Built: 3,514, all versions.
This aircraft was the best Japanese fighter to see combat in WWII. It was built in quantity and saw combat from the Philipines on to the end of the war. Its speed, armament, handling and durability make it a threat to every USN and USAAF fighter that saw combat in WWII.
In the attack role the Japanese are really at a disadvantage. The IJN and IJA simply did not see the need for heavy bomb loads and never specified them in design requirements. The Ki-67 that we have is probably the best bomber the Japanese used and could easily have carried a much heavier load, but the IJA only asked for 800kgs and that's what Mitsubishi delivered.
Carrier strike aircraft such as the B6N2 or B7A2 would be a good thing to have though.
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OK, I was thinking about the Japanese lack of attack capability. I looked over my list of bombers and seeing that even their biggest bombloads are only 1000kg I was thinking that it was pretty hopeless.
Then I remembered the H8K2 "Emily". That can carry 4,400lbs. While that's not particularly good, it is at least enough to do something with. Add to that the fact that it has 5 20mm cannon as defensive fire and is one of the most durable aircraft (possibly the most) of WWII.
So, adding the Ki-44-IIb, Ki-84-Ia, B6N2 and H8K2 would give the Japanese a far, far better shot at being a playable side in AH.
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My only issue with the CT now is the AI ack, the milkrunning BS and the uneven sides.
Logged in this afternoon, there were 15 people in CT. I said "WOOT! people in CT!"...
and I get in and see 3 axis and 12 allies.
Switched to axis.. and for the next hour nobody switched sides. Worse of all , there were 3 allies constantly milkrunning bases all over.
And THEN, when 3 more people logged in to the CT and came in as axis, it only took 20 minutes for those 12 allieds to drop to 10... then to 6... then to 4.
No more milkrunning it seems.
:rolleyes:
Then the AI ack thing. Theres nothing worse than being in a zero fighting an f6f that has 10k alt adv for about 12 minutes and then have the f6f run STRAIGHT to his ack. The funniest thing is that while I stayed with 6k alt above him and lost a lot of ground, I followed him to his field.. and this f6f circled his own ack at 7k for 3 or 4 circles, on one of them he strayed a bit away from the ack cover, I dove on him, the second he saw me coming he dove straight for his ack. I pulled up again and circled him.
Then he saw his fleet just off the field.. and guess what. He ran for the fleet. Again, I follow the loser to the fleet, he does his little circle dance twice then drops his alt to near 3k behind his fleet.. I drop mine to just above the ack fire umbrella.. and he headed straight for his carrier to land.
As he touched the deck I came in from above and blew him up.
To stop the ack-running:
I would ask CT team to disable the ack guns or change them to 30 cals. The population in CT is small enough already to have this pathetic breed of pilots run to the AI to save their asses.
To stop the milkrunning and uneven sides
Hopefully HTC can put an automatic side balancer. When one side has 1/4th more pilots than the other side, switch some people or put the newcomers to the lowest # team.
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exactly tac
Thats what I and a few others have been saying......
Its starts off comical then its just gets to be pure bs........
Dunno know what ya can do except just stay out of these ones......
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Originally posted by Tac
Logged in this afternoon, there were 15 people in CT. I said "WOOT! people in CT!"...
and I get in and see 3 axis and 12 allies.
Switched to axis.. and for the next hour nobody switched sides. Worse of all , there were 3 allies constantly milkrunning bases all over.
And THEN, when 3 more people logged in to the CT and came in as axis, it only took 20 minutes for those 12 allieds to drop to 10... then to 6... then to 4.
No more milkrunning it seems.
:rolleyes:
no Tac this obviously is a figment of our imagination.According to eskimo and his 'buccaneers' this sort of thing just doesnt happen ;)
we apparently need to 'get over it'.
funny, dont see too many buccaneers on the ijn side do you? :D
joking aside if people choose not to admit or accept the ijn are at a disadvantage then, well , what can anyone do.
Like i said i flew on both sides and found the allies enjoyable if a little dull because you cant really dogfight in them too welland it means bnz all the time(apart from in f6fs) and the ijn side frustrating. If you dont agree eskimo id appreciate it if you actually tried flying on their side first.I checked your stats and you have flown mostly f6f and no IJN at all.No wonder you dont agree.
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When the TOD's are not going on the Mongrels fly squad nights (Friday nights) in the CT.
Last Friday 11 of us flew Ki-61's and Ki-67's. First a high level bombing mission. 2nd a low level bombing run. When we logged on it was about 15 IJN to about 4 American.
Not the norm, but it does happen. By the time we left it was more like 10 to 10.
The numbers on both sides is like a roller coaster. Generally the numbers are higher for Allies. No surprise there.
When we have a Frank or a Jack that might change some. ;) In anycase the CT is far from perfect, but beats what we had 8 months ago.
Nothing
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This set up started with the ack leathality turned down 25% below normal. It seemed about right while playing for several hours last night. As for making the N1K2 available at more bases, it is already available at all but the most outlying island bases. It's currently perked, but is not supposed to be. I had put a message up on our forum asking for the perk values to be reset (zero for N1K2), but Pyro must not have seen it. I've posted another request. In the mean time, I could probably enable them at all original IJ bases, since the perk costs will control the numbers for now.
My only other thought on the lack of IJ firepower is to add the Ju88 back in as a Betty substitute. I had also thought about adding the Bf110C-4 in as a sub for the Ki45 Nick; however, the feedback I was getting was that the immersion factor would suffer. I can and will adjust the CV's to allow either F4Us or F6Fs, but not both. I'll make two of the Allied CV's F5F boats, and one an F4U boat. All will have TBMs.
Sabre
CT Staff
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thats really cool sabre.
I mean the idea of 1 cv for one type may not work but hey you never know.
for trying it out.
im also not too into replacement bombers or substitutes and i agree the immersion is lost.However it might be the only way until we have some way to attack a CV with 1-3 people and be effective in some way.
The ANSWER may well lie elsewhere sabre.After being suprised that the japanese torpedo happened to have exactly the same drop parimeters as the LW one I asked if anyone knew why, or if they used the same torpedos.I was told that the Japanese torpedo was an extremely rugged design and could be dropped at much higher speeds than the LW one.
If this is the case things could be RADICALLY different. If i was able to weave into the CV at a higher speed and not have to drop at 200ft sub 200mph(meaning @20-25 manifold on ki67!) then the Ki67 would be more dangerous than it is now.On the ju88 it can be slowed at the last minute easily but the Ki67 takes a lot more time.
Could you ask HTC about the torpdoes? this could well save the need for immersion killing replacement planes.
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excellent
Reduce ack lethality to 50%
Add bf110C4 (Excellent idea! its almost in par with the nip twin!). I would also add the C202 to the nip arsenal, it'd be like the Ki-43/Ki44! Also, give them the 40mm Hurricane, to give the IJN some jabo ability (consider it the Yokosuka D4Y Suisei
"Judy" equivalent)
I dont know why the ju88 would be a good addition.. since the ki67 is avaliable. Ju88 is a target. As far as unperking the n1k.. I totally disagree. Do that and the zeke and tony wont get used. period.
My ideal planeset:
Allied :
Name // Perk Cost // carrier capable
F4U-1 // 0 // yes (so that at least one hog is cv capable and free)
F4U-D // 1 // yes
F6F // 2 // yes
P-38L // 1 // no (only from home bases and 1 field behind starting front lines)
Seafire // 0 // yes
Hurricane 1 // 0 // no
TBM // 0 // yes
B-26 // 1 // no
IJN
A6M5 // 0 // yes
Ki-61 // 0 // no
C202 // 0 // no
Bf110C4 // 0 // no
N1K-2J // 2 // no
Ki-67 // 1 // no
TBM // 0 // yes
40mm Hurricane // 0 // no
This would make the allies launch zeke equivalent craft from a CV and have a fair fight vs IJN rides unless using the perk costing rides (which they would have a counter in the n1k), would make the allied jabo-rides that are CV capable have a perk cost (and face it, it IS unfair when IJN can barely carry ord and yet the allies can carry mongo jabo ordenance from their CV and kamikaze on a field without any penalty). 38L would have to travel a sector or 2 to get to the action, while the n1k is avaliable at all fields, but at a higher perk cost.
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the 'we can't sink the allied cv's' gripe is BS. I've watched betty's do it 6 times now... even saw a betty divebomb a boat into oblivion... something i've never been able to do with a b26. The betty's high speed and murderous defensive guns make it a very handy improvement over the b26's they had to use last time this setup was flown.
the ijn has a competent aircraft complement.
when they ORGANIZE and fly as a TEAM, they do quite nicely.
i think having one or the other USnavy fighters avail (f6f5, f4u-1)from the US cv's is fine.. as long as the f4u1d becomes avail from forward and captured airfields, UNPERKED.
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Originally posted by hazed-
no Tac this obviously is a figment of our imagination.According to eskimo and his 'buccaneers' this sort of thing just doesnt happen ;)
we apparently need to 'get over it'.
funny, dont see too many buccaneers on the ijn side do you? :D
joking aside if people choose not to admit or accept the ijn are at a disadvantage then, well , what can anyone do.
Like i said i flew on both sides and found the allies enjoyable if a little dull because you cant really dogfight in them too welland it means bnz all the time(apart from in f6fs) and the ijn side frustrating. If you dont agree eskimo id appreciate it if you actually tried flying on their side first.I checked your stats and you have flown mostly f6f and no IJN at all.No wonder you dont agree.
I think that I made it clear that I was refering to last night.
You were refering to last night in your original post.
I have logged in to this weeks set up once, and I flew with my squad. We flew the mission that we planned earlier in the week.
I can't really tell you much about the ballance in this week's set-up because I only have flown last night.
Personally, some set ups I fly one side all week.
Others I always log onto the side with lesser numbers each time I log on.
And often, I log onto the side that my squad mates are on.
But overall, I certainly have spent plenty of time as the underdog.
Much of it axis.
The big difference is,
I've learned not to whine about it.
I just take it or leave it, as it is.
eskimo
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er.. hang.. why take a b26 when a f4U-D and F6F can carry 2k bombs and a few rockets? Why fly across entire sector to get to 12k when F4U and F6F get there in 1/3rd the time? IJN is majorly lacking in jabo capability.
If I was IJN and had a CV launching hogs and hellokittys armed with 2k bombs and rockets and I could only retaliate with stuff barely worth 500lbs.. and I had to not only FLY through the allied fighters (which can outrun me even when they loaded) but also CLIMB past the CV acks (which will take even MORE time than an allied plane would) and then dive bomb against 4X the AI ack firepower found on the field im defending... and THEN have to repeat the process until the CV takes the 8k to sink... well.. i'd say its pretty unbalanced right there.
The planeset i'd like would make both IJN and USN have almost equal capabilities for their unperked planes. JABO, which is an area which the allies can and do seriously abuse has taken the role of the B26. IJN simply cant compete at all if it was on the offensive, it'd have to bring their bombers to do the job. And then fighters to CAP it.
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Tac, the same gripe comes up in the axis vs USAAF setups. Fact is, the axis invented it, the allies perfected it.
what the IJN can do is USE their very competent buffs. And they do. In addition, the zeke totes 1 500lb, the Ki 2 500's, so does the n1k. They ain't freakin helpless when it comes to JABO. As one CM so likes to remind me.. "it's historical".
I use our b26 to kill IJN CV's because it can do it a better in fewer sorties. takes 8k to down a cv in this setup.. i can down the CV in 2 sorties and live thru it... rather than dying 4 times delivering eggs via f6f. The Betty can and does do the same.
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Betty? Err not to come off as being anel or anything but the Betty bomber which we do not have can cary aprox. 800kg. The Peggy which we do have can cary aprox. 800kg. The adation of the JU 88 to the plane set was a game play concesition and is no way historical, the Betty had 20mm type 99 defensive guns a smaller bomb load and was very fragile and not a dive bomber, much unlike the JU in a fair number of ways.
Hangtime has a point on the JABO issue, howeaver with the adation of the Bf 110 series this factor has largley been adresed for the Axis in general. Their are a couple of planes that could be added to the Japanese plane set that would help in the JABO area, A Ki 102 with it's monster 57mm cannon and typical Japanses bombload of 2 500pounders would be nice, and a Grace for CV strike capabality. Other than that the Geeorge has a good atack capabality with it's ton of 20mm ammo and 2 500pounders.
One thing that apears to be overlooked is the presence of the TBM, it packs 2k of bombs, thats 4 trips to sink a CV.
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you are correct brady. i'm mis-identifying the ki67 with the 'betty'.. in the game, i've been mentally associating the games new japanese twin engine med buff (the peggy) in my mind as a 'betty'.
whoops.
i still think of and refer to the george in the sim as a 'nikki' too..
my bad. i think i heard somewhere this ticks pyro off, too.
double whoops. ;)
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well there we have it. from fun to misery in one change of a map.
eskimo you seem to be trying the holier than thou approach and to be honest i dont know where you get off doing it.I felt the setup was wrong and i either question it or leave.
This was the whole point of the post.I felt it was the most frustrating time ive had since...well since the last time i played as IJN/A.If like you say you want me to either like it or lump it then fine im lumping it.Great for the CT to have players leaving the arena isnt it?
Im not alone in thinking that the ballance wasnt right but apparently according to you we should all take it or leave it.Well thats the whole problem with the CT.Too many leaving it.
Well i asked for change somewhere to help re-address the ballance and get nothing but flak and abuse for it.I know im not alone in thinking it.I wasnt sure of course but thanks to others posting here i realise im not completely wrong.what did you do ignore them too?
What really amazes me is the fact that someone like tac who is a fan of allied planes like the p38 is trying to tell you just how frustrating it gets and you all ignore him like hes trying to get some sort of axis advantage.Its always the same.No matter who says it they are immediately labeled a whiner.The fact that the IJN, with EXACTLY the same players who had fantastic fights with you in other setups are basically down to 1 base inside 2 days and ask for something to even it out has been completely ignored.why? well maybe because its so easy as allies and you like it that way?.We are whiners, yeah thats it, we all want a free ride and to ruin the allies day.Hell i sit up at night trying to think of ways i can do that.We arent asking for a fair game at all.we want advantage right?
yeah spot on.
Im here for enjoyment not petty squabbles and frustration.I dont desire anything other than a fair 2 sided battle of wits with other players.We each choose our ride and away we go.I dont need advantage, in fact i generally choose to fly the harder aircraft for the challenge.But there comes a point where the challenge is no fun at all.this is the time to step back and try to find out why.The answer is simple.The setup needs adjustment.
You want it left as it is fine, i hope you enjoy shooting your teammates because they will be the only ones in there come the end of the week.
to sabre for trying to help but its just not going to work with people like this.Ill be back in CT saturday for the new map i guess.Until then I guess im stuck with the MA.
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Originally post:
Originally posted by hazed-
Im becoming a little discouraged by the MA type attitude to fighting im seeing more and more of in the CT of late.
A lack of interest in any organisation or missions etc.
Same kill no matter what attitude
Not allowing players the chance to launch even when no capture is in progress
NO vulching just for kills!!!but for a capture only?
no gangbanging?
I really thought i was going to see more cooperation or at least small groups flying together.Some people in the CT try to consider it a one life event like a scenario and to be vutched or shot whilst ditching is a real spoiler for their chosen style of play.
Originally posted by hazed- [
eskimo you seem to be trying the holier than thou approach and to be honest i dont know where you get off doing it.I felt the setup was wrong and i either question it or leave.
You want it left as it is fine, i hope you enjoy shooting your teammates because they will be the only ones in there come the end of the week.
[/B]
Hazed,
Please read YOUR words that I have quoted before reading what I have to say...
In your ORIGINAL post you laid into both the aircraft set-up and the player mentality, particularly vulching.
I have NO problem with making complaints against this or any plane set-up. Plane type complaints and discussions are valid if not necessary. In fact, I agree that you bring up some good points, about the plane-set. But I haven't challenged that, have I?
As far as player mentality goes, your clearly whining bud.
Why the heck do you assume that there's some kind of "Gentleman's Agreement" that myself or anyone, should let you gain an equal E-state before engaging? If players go through the trouble of de-acking a base, and beating the fight down at the same time, they deserve to take a shot at anyone who tries to take off. Anyone who tries to take off from a de-acked and capped base had better expect, and clearly deserves, to get shot on take-off. If they don't like it, too bad. That's how the game is played. They can start or find another fight elsewhere, or come to the rescue, with alt from a rear base.
When the enemy gains this status, however, either surrender the base or continue to fight at a severe disadvantage, but don't whine about it.
The A6M becomes very dangerous about 10 seconds after spawning. Because so many axis players were flying the Zero, it made getting true air superiority (including vulching) over an axis base very difficult. I haven't had such a hard time holding a vulch as I did Saturday night. ( To the IJN fliers and their little twisty Zekes!) If anyone thinks they have free passage to roll and get airborne over a capped-n-vulched base they are mistaken. Everyone has a choice. But that's how this game is played in both the MA and the CT.
Hazed, you have been playing this game a long time and I am surprised to see you complaining about vulching.
Call my attitude "holier than thou" if you wish, I'll call it "not whinin about something that's completely ingrained into the game."
The next time I log in, I very well may fly IJN if they are at a disadvantage. I love the zero. It is one of my main rides in both the MA and CT. If I don't like the numbers, I may log out as well... That's the "leave it part". If I do get a Zeke to an Allied base, and manage to de-ack it, I will shoot anyone who rolls... That is my mentality... take it or leave it.
BTW,
I have killed 6 of my squad-mates in the CT.
:)
eskimo
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er you missed a point eskimo.I did say vulvhing during a capture is completely valid and i agree anyone who deacks a base deserves some kills.This isnt a complaint on vulching per se it was refering to an 'incident' the other day when there was maybe 8 or 9 people on (some 3 axis vs 6 allied).A fight was ensueing over a base and i was on the allied side.We had completely trounced the jap base but wasnt in the process of capture because we were all above the base in F6fs and F4us. the 3 guys taking off said on the open channel 'could we at least let them take off' as they didnt want to fly from the next nearest base some 50 miles away.I thought it was fair enough seeing as how if they did that the fights would basically end.It was as much for our fun as theirs.
so i continued myattack but hit the structures.
But when they started rolling, which i would imagine they wouldnt have had a few of us not said 'ok', in went all but 2 or 3 of the allies on at the time and straffed them, pissing them off in the process and makeing one of them log off.I knew a have flown with all those players and they dont complain without reason.Great though eh? 2 axis left to fight, what fun eh?
so as you cant see this was a complaint 'on behalf' of those players not because i was vultched.I personally would have flown from the next base but not if someone had asked to get up at least and got an ok from several players.we can all read the text buffer, it was obvious what was asked.
After this and a few other incidents, like calling for help and seeing friendlies fly on by i decided i prefered to fly axis and changed to help them out.
Now i knew full well we had a rediculous advantage in these situations but it didnt seem to bother others.This is the MA attitude im speaking of.
You obviously havent had those fights where you and your foe fight a great fight and youre hit and try to ditch and that same enemy your skill and lets you ditch? I really appreciate this sort of thing.I know its kinda silly but its a form os sportsmanship.
You havent GOT to follow this 'code' and im certainly not DEMANDING anyone do it but IT IS a good thing and people do appreciate it whether you beleive it or not.I know because ive heard the thankyous and 's when i do it.
Like i said 'where has it gone?'. eskimo you were in AH for a long time right? well if you was you must remember the differnce in behaviour when we had the huge influx from AW? the kill stealling/ignoring friendlies in trouble type of behaviour?(it increased, wasnt new of course) for me it had ruined the MA.The gangbanging in there is at an extreme at the moment.tell me it doesnt piss you off?
combat theatre WAS a refuge from it to a certain extent and i loved it because of it.This is no whine eskimo its a statement of my dissapointment that people seem to be slipping into this sort of thing in the CT too.Seems it is never going to be the norm.
you capped a base for capture? i have no problem with it.HOWEVER, if it was just your squad on with 9 players and you was up on a sweep of a base and you kill the 3 defenders (total enemy online)then they say 'let us up' for another fight knowing they are well outnumbered would you mercilessly vulch them or would you think 'hey, its cool that they still want to give us a fight' and let them up? I know what I'd do, I'd just like to know what you would do?(btw not a dig at you just a question)
It may be that the only thing in AH that will get haf decent behaviour is TOD or scenarios.I really hope not because i want to have a 24/7 'different' arena which it certainly has been up until lately (well most of the time :))
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I logged out of the CT 4 times this weekend in total disgust. Very much not like me at all.
In my opinion you CT managers really fell down when you set up this plane set in the first place.
There is NO balance between the Axis and allied sides.
Zeke vs Hellcat is fine but from there it went to hell.
Allies have 4 ac that can carry 2k of bombs or better and fight themselves out of a hole if jumped.
Allies have TBM, & KI-67 either of which are easy meat to an allied fighter.
Frankly I think the CT lost more people this last weekend than in gained in the BOB. I know I won't bother trying it again till we have a new setup.
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Hazed,
You harped on vulching 3+ times at the BEGINNING of your original post.
It sure sounds to me like there's more to it than mentioning it "on behalf" of some other players. Especially when your major gripe was the plane-set.
Spin it however you like.
Originally posted by hazed- [
HOWEVER, if it was just your squad on with 9 players and you was up on a sweep of a base and you kill the 3 defenders (total enemy online)then they say 'let us up' for another fight knowing they are well outnumbered would you mercilessly vulch them or would you think 'hey, its cool that they still want to give us a fight' and let them up? I know what I'd do, I'd just like to know what you would do?(btw not a dig at you just a question)
) [/B]
About the only normal situations that I won't shoot at an enemy are:
* When he is airborne and missing a essential part to maintain controlled flight. I.E. an entire wing, tail or horizontal stab.
* When he is in a chute. The longer he is in a chute, the longer it takes him to become an effective threat again.
Other than that, I ruthlessly and mercilessly kill everything I see.
Chivalry is BS and only for those who are either trying to make others happy or trying to portray themselves as some kind of noble-gentleman-hero-wannabe, when in-fact they're just another dork playing on a computer (as am I).
In the exact situation that you described above, it would depend.
If a squadmate or countryman was approaching in a goon, no way would I let them up.
Otherwise, probably.
eskimo
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Ghost: I have to say that this plane set is much more balanced than the first two times we ran a PTO set up. I completely took out Spits and Hurris, and have as historic a planeset as possible while still giving the IJ a fighting chance. I also gave each side three CV's this time, while before the Allies had 3 and the IJN only 2. Is it perfect? Nope. I can't help feeling that if I allowed N1K2's at every field for the IJ to try to give them a more even playing field, I'd get howls about uber-nikkies ruining the CT. I've played both IJ and US in this set up, and enjoyed both. Had a great fight against Hazed, me in a Tony and him trying to B&Z me in a P-47. It ended with a draw (and me dead-sticking on rtb when he ran me out of fuel...glad he didn't know, too;)).
To win this scenario, the US must capture all the IJ fields. The Japanese only have to prevent this to win. Their outlying fields don't have N1K2's, so stripping these is easier for the US. The inner Japanes islands have the N1K2's enabled, making them harder to take. I'm not apologizing for the set up, just trying to put it into perspective. Hope to see you back in here. This is why we only run set ups for a week, btw. Not everyone likes every set up.
Sabre
CT Staff
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simple solution to this. send the map back to HTC and have them place shore batteries at EVERY base on the ndisles map. Then try to park the TWO fleets in visible range of the field.
I have no problem with vulching in general. I do have a problem with a CV being parked super close to shore to do the vulching. In most every other setup we have, to vulch, you have to fly 20-30 miles to do it. You can knock down a vulture and it'll take him some time to get back on station to do it again. When the CV is right off shore, he can get back in a matter of minutes. Plus, given the difference in plane performances, he can climb to a near untouchable advantage in his fleet ack umbrella (which is far more deadly than the ack at a field, especially if the 5 in guns are being manned by human players) AND get back over the defending field much faster than he would have if the fleet wasn't parked right off shore.
The nearest vulch free bases were 40+ miles away. Given the speed that the Japanese planes travel and the fact that the Hellcats and Corsairs were less than 10 miles from the base, what was the point in even trying to come from a rear field. Sure you might get there in time to knock down a few Hellcats, but they come right back up safe in their ack umbrella. Without shore batteries, there's no way the Japanese can deal with CV fleets that park right off shore.
But wait, the Allieds could sink the Japanese carrier! So how come the Japs can't do it back? Well because it takes 4 suicide Hellcats vs 16 suicide Zekes. Fully loaded Hellcats can outrun Zekes in level flight and can dive from Tonys. From this it's easy to see why the Hellcats (or Corsairs) can get their 2000lbs over the CV then dive through the ack, drop and die 4 times before a Zeke could do it 16 times. The Zekes on the other hand can't get away from the Hellcats to make a run on the CV, IMO. TBMs and Ju88s are fodder for the Hellcats if they try torp runs.
But hey, far be it from me to tell anyone how to play the game. If the majority of the players want to concentrate on capturing bases, then they should. The best way to do it in this setup is to park a CV super close to the shore and just ack run until you get the defense down low over the field then commence to vulching while the LVTs run to the town.
It was so bad at one point that my strategy was just to spawn and sit there hoping they'd either run out of ammo or run into the ground (one actually did auger). Of course it didn't matter as the CV was so close, the guy was probably back in under 2 minutes. ;)
BTW, the N1K2-J being unperked and available at all fields wouldn't change this one bit, IMO. They can't kill CVs any easier than the other Japanese planes.
Am I ranting? yeah, it was frustrating at times because the choices for flying on the Japanese side were
1) get vulched
2) fly 20-30 minutes to have a chance in the fight at which point the Allieds would already have taken the base
3) milkrun bases since all the Allieds were busy taking one Jap base
4) watch from the tower
5) log off or switch to the Allied side.
None of those choices is much fun, so I picked 1, as it's the lesser of the evils, IMO.
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FWIW, Tac, both Ammo and I did immediately switch to the Japanese side- in my case, this occured right after I de-acked a field. I saw the numbers, augered, and re-upped at the very field I de-acked. I of course was vultched mercilessly, but no worries. ;)
I flew the rest of my time as a Japanese pilot, as did Ammo.
Wotan-
Yeah, that was a good time until the Gilligans moved the fleets together. FWIW, our CV was sunk before yours was. Our cruiser went down first, too. I knew then you guys wouldn't be back, because I wouldn't have bothered either under the circumstances.
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To the point of what the CT is about, and why I fly it...
I like the fact it is lesser populated. I like how you can go in and face opponents that are more-or-less balanced in terms of aircraft, or at the very least, contemporaries. I like the atmosphere; it's a friendlier place and much more like AH used to be back in the day. I don't have much time to play usually, so there can't be much strat for me. It's take a few hops, fight for a while, leave when the time is up.
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japanese dive bombers carried AP bombs (actually modified artillery shells) weighing over 1800lbs at pearl harbour...
The IJN gonna need something like the above, and real torps before any quazi-historical action can take place in the PAC..
SKurj
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Hazed,
You harped on vulching 3+ times at the BEGINNING of your original post.
It sure sounds to me like there's more to it than mentioning it "on behalf" of some other players. Especially when your major gripe was the plane-set.
Spin it however you like.
About the only normal situations that I won't shoot at an enemy are:
* When he is airborne and missing a essential part to maintain controlled flight. I.E. an entire wing, tail or horizontal stab.
* When he is in a chute. The longer he is in a chute, the longer it takes him to become an effective threat again.
Other than that, I ruthlessly and mercilessly kill everything I see.
Chivalry is BS and only for those who are either trying to make others happy or trying to portray themselves as some kind of noble-gentleman-hero-wannabe, when in-fact they're just another dork playing on a computer (as am I).
In the exact situation that you described above, it would depend.
If a squadmate or countryman was approaching in a goon, no way would I let them up.
Otherwise, probably.
eskimo
eskimo read it how YOU like.YOU are totally wrong.its your misinterpretation more than its my poor explanation.The vulch comments i made originally:
'Not allowing players the chance to launch even when no capture is in progress'
'NO vulching just for kills!!!but for a capture only'
couldnt have been any clearer and was just one comment amonst many i considered more important. call it whatever you like YOU ARE WRONG.It doesnt matter how many times i explain things to you you interpret it totally different to anyone else in this post.Do me a favour and stick to your own posts.I dont post in yours because i dont agree.If i agree i post an agreement.I dont post 5 bloody times telling YOU what YOU meant by what you said.
if you actually realised the original post is FIRST A LIST and then an explanation or comment on what each meant.ALL of them were mentioned TWICE minumum! YOU CHOSE to latch onto the vulch aspect alone not me.i also said
'A lack of interest in any organisation or missions etc.' AND
Squadron flying and tactics? Large bomber formations making the attack clear rather than solo milkrun behaviour in order to allow the few enemy on to have a chance of attack?'
also:
'Same kill no matter what attitude' AND
'allowing a severly damaged aircraft to ditch rather than totally destroy them as they scrape to a stop? do we want to piss off the few people we have in the CT?'
It couldnt be any clearer what my veiw was.I dont vulch people unless im on a capture.YOU just said the SAME BLOODY THING.stop pissing me off with your inane interpretations.spin? you dont know the meaning of it.I couldnt give a toejam what you THINK i meant.Im fed up with trying to drum it into your thick skull.
Ill make sure if youre online that i dont tell anyone to up safe. youre obviously one of these types who jump in and kill them regardless.Just the sort of MA mentality i despise.
When numbers are low in CT i tend to relax the kill or be killed attitude in order to get decent fights.I will allow people to get alt.I have had several fights in the ct with people where ive left 2 to fight alone until im requested to help.
You've never had this in CT?
Why dont we ask the others if they have done this?
Im 100% sure im not alone in doing this because ive talked to them on radio whilst its happening.1 on 1's allowing players to get off the ground even allowing an advantage when axis have 8 on and allies 4 in the BOB i organised a pure bomber mission with no escort and we TOLD the allies where we were going to attack, the 8 to 4 odds seemed fair bombers vs fighters and it worked really well,Everyone enjoyed it.Sure they died getting us one by one but they could climb back to us without fighter attacks.WE even kept the manifold at 40 so we didnt leave them behind!.when numbers are so low as they were theres not much point in capture as its uncontested.Uncontested capture is milkrunning.I dont do it unless im in there totally alone and theres nothing else to do, which i think has happened once!.
call this spin do you? i call it an explanation of how i like to play the game with a fairer ballance.
do you now understand the MEANING of the original post now? finally? Its not any one indiviadual thing or comment i want to be dragged up over and over, its the general lack of enthusiasm for any realistic behaviour or re-enactment.There seems to be no interest in it and yet on you come teling me youre doing exactly this with your squadron!!and at the same time berating me for wishing for it.WELL what do you know...you enjoy it too???? well this is what i want to see MORE of in the CT.Squadron flying etc but if we havent got the numbers its damn wrong to bring huge squads in and POUND the few guys trying to have fun who DONT have a squadron to fly with. I think you have just played the typical BB part of picking a single quote, taking it out of context and winding up the person who posted it by bringing it up over and over and adding your own interpretation.Well way to go.really productive and positively fun for me explaining myself over and over.:rolleyes: sheesh. what a waste of my time.
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yeah the fleets came together and boom 5 inch flack nailed me I logged right after. I dont know what was killed 1st. I do know I wasnt in a mood to fly 35-40 miles to find a fight.
I have lots of fun when I am on. I upped a niki yeterday got 7 kills before i was killed.
Had some ok fights till it became a race to fleet ack after every reverse. At that point I logged.
This is a much better set up then previous pac set ups. I really hope to see the early war pac stuff. The ct will only get better as we get more planes and more parity within the setups
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Originally posted by hazed-
"YOU CHOSE to latch onto the vulch aspect alone not me."
Oh gee, I forget...
Who started this thread?
LOL dude, YOU brought it up!
Originally posted by hazed-
"couldnt have been any clearer and was just one comment amonst many i considered more important. call it whatever you like YOU ARE WRONG.It doesnt matter how many times i explain things to you you interpret it totally different to anyone else in this post."
I'm not interpreting anything differently Hazed, I CHOSE to comment on vulching and player mentality.
Others chose to comment on plane-set.
There are different themes running throughout your thread because you brought up many topics.
Look at my second post:
It was a response to your comment on my first post. Here you harp on me and my squad for not flying IJN after we only flew ONE DANG NIGHT!
Not only are you TELLING ME WHAT TO FLY AND WHO TO FLY FOR, but you expect me and my squad to switch sides in the middle of our squad night?
That's total B.S.
_____________________________ __
quote:
Originally posted by hazed-
no Tac this obviously is a figment of our imagination.According to eskimo and his 'buccaneers' this sort of thing just doesnt happen
we apparently need to 'get over it'.
funny, dont see too many buccaneers on the ijn side do you?
joking aside if people choose not to admit or accept the ijn are at a disadvantage then, well , what can anyone do.
Like i said i flew on both sides and found the allies enjoyable if a little dull because you cant really dogfight in them too welland it means bnz all the time(apart from in f6fs) and the ijn side frustrating. If you dont agree eskimo id appreciate it if you actually tried flying on their side first.I checked your stats and you have flown mostly f6f and no IJN at all.No wonder you dont agree.
I think that I made it clear that I was refering to last night.
You were refering to last night in your original post.
I have logged in to this weeks set up once, and I flew with my squad. We flew the mission that we planned earlier in the week.
I can't really tell you much about the ballance in this week's set-up because I only have flown last night.
Personally, some set ups I fly one side all week.
Others I always log onto the side with lesser numbers each time I log on.
And often, I log onto the side that my squad mates are on.
But overall, I certainly have spent plenty of time as the underdog.
Much of it axis.
The big difference is,
I've learned not to whine about it.
I just take it or leave it, as it is.
eskimo
_____________________________ ___
Originally posted by hazed-
"Do me a favour and stick to your own posts.I dont post in yours because i dont agree.If i agree i post an agreement.I dont post 5 bloody times telling YOU what YOU meant by what you said. "
Oh great, let's all agree to only agree.
That'll make the BB really worthwhile!
Drop the Sunday school attitude Hazed.
Originally posted by hazed-
"youre obviously one of these types who jump in and kill them regardless.Just the sort of MA mentality i despise.
When numbers are low in CT i tend to relax the kill or be killed attitude in order to get decent fights.I will allow people to get alt.I have had several fights in the ct with people where ive left 2 to fight alone until im requested to help. "
If anyone is playing the "Holier than thou" card it's you.
You apparently "despise" anyone who does not fly to your oh-so-honorable standards.
This attitude is what I've really got a problem with. The "play my way or not at all" thing is really getting old and annoying.
Hazed,
When you tell other players: how, what, when, where, and why they should fly, you can't expect not to get nailed for it.
You may think that people hate the "kill or be killed attitude" more than anything.
I believe that most people are even more annoyed by the "Fly my way only" attitude.
Whether you realize it or not, this is a theme of yours throughout your thread.
eskimo
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ahhhhhh diddly off.
lets both agree not to ever diddlying talk again eh? you've just got the honour of being the first ever on my ignore list.
Hell, if it gets me banned from AH so be it.Im fed up with talking to you.
total diddlyin' waste of my time and effort.
p.s. go find one of your posts eskimo where ive done to you what youve done here, or disagreed and ripped into your opinions.
sunday school? I think you've barely graduated from it.
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Originally posted by hazed-
ahhhhhh diddly off.
lets both agree not to ever diddlying talk again eh? you've just got the honour of being the first ever on my ignore list.
Hell, if it gets me banned from AH so be it.Im fed up with talking to you.
total diddlyin' waste of my time and effort.
Hazed shows his true colors and mentality.
It sounds to me like you can't deal with the truth bud.
No attempt to either say "I was wrong" or to try to provide an intelligent response to my above post, which clearly shows how you are not making sense. You've tried to spin this into, "I was speaking for someone else" and "eskimo doesn't know Jack because he didn't fly IJN his first night in the CT."
You let this snowball, I just didn't let you get away with it.
eskimo
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Ahhh hehe my creedo:
RELAX, ITS JUST A GAME
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Cut back on the Valium, or Ativan, or whatever it is you're taking! :p