Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on April 08, 2002, 08:17:22 AM

Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 08, 2002, 08:17:22 AM
Interesting Gallup poll
One of the worst presidents yet? (http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr020408.asp)
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Eagler on April 08, 2002, 08:38:10 AM
take away the economic bubble slick rode the eight years in the oral office and he'd be one of the worst presidents we've had the pleasure of leading the country. Take away the same economic bubble, and he'd lost in 96.

given the economic bubble, donald duck could have been pres during the same period and would have been a better one without the scandal & disgrace slick gave the office and country
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Tronspir on April 08, 2002, 08:44:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
take away the economic bubble slick rode the eight years in the oral office and he'd be one of the worst presidents we've had the pleasure of leading the country. Take away the same economic bubble, and he'd lost in 96.

given the economic bubble, donald duck could have been pres during the same period and would have been a better one without the scandal & disgrace slick gave the office and country


Yeah, the Technological boom, and the subsequent stock market rise because of over-inflated stock values certainly gave him about 1/2 that approval rating, from those who think it was he that helped the economy...little do thy knowst of economics. ;)
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: OZkansas on April 08, 2002, 09:03:03 AM
Could someone please list the accomplishments of the Clinton administration?

As time passes these 8 years will be viewed as wasted.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 08, 2002, 09:37:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by OZkansas
Could someone please list the accomplishments of the Clinton administration?

As time passes these 8 years will be viewed as wasted.


One stands out in my mind, within the first week of office, he passed the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy of gays in the US forces. :eek:
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Wingnut_0 on April 08, 2002, 09:47:21 AM
If any president makes the economy better by actions or inactions, therefore raising my standard of living I'm all for it.

Just curious...why in the world do ppl still feel Kennedy was some sort of "god" when it comes to his presidency?
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 08, 2002, 09:51:50 AM
Because he stared down the bear over Cuba. Heck, I'm not even American, but I respect him for that.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 08, 2002, 09:54:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
"Don't ask, don't tell" policy of gays in the US forces...


Please say that there is some kind of "...just fire/dishonorably discharge." ending to that policy?
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 08, 2002, 09:55:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wingnut_0
If any president makes the economy better by actions or inactions, therefore raising my standard of living I'm all for it.

 


Thats the thing, wing, no president has ever affected the ecomony, stimulation wise, since Roosevelt and the New Deal. Clinton was just a passenger in a bus already destined to economic growth.  Yet some blind-faith followers believe he was the reason we prospered.:eek: :cool:
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 08, 2002, 09:58:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Because he stared down the bear over Cuba. Heck, I'm not even American, but I respect him for that.


A few political blunders early in his talks with "The Bear" put us/him into a very precarious situation. Some history critics say that most of this could have been avoided (the brink of destruction) months in advance.

Incidently, Reagan stared down the Bear as well, thru attrition, but will never be allowed credit for it.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 08, 2002, 10:15:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort


A few political blunders early in his talks with "The Bear" put us/him into a very precarious situation. Some history critics say that most of this could have been avoided (the brink of destruction) months in advance.

Incidently, Reagan stared down the Bear as well, thru attrition, but will never be allowed credit for it.


Who said that? IMO Reagan is one of the best presidents the US has ever had. I thought it was widely recognized that he is the one who killed the bear by forcing it to blow its own economy trying to keep in the arms race.

As for Kennedy, perhaps he managed to blunder his way into the standoff over Cuba, but once he was there he did manage to stare the bear down. Put Clinton in a similar position...what do you think the results would be?

As for Clinton, that sad f¤ck could not even stare 'ol Fidel down over a small kid...remember that one? Julian or whatever his name was?

A true F¤cking disgrace.
Title: Lol
Post by: weazel on April 08, 2002, 10:26:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by OZkansas
Could someone please list the accomplishments of the Clinton administration?


Shrub has accomplished something....he's setting the record for using the most vacation days of ANY president?

In only 2 years....WOO-HOO!  :D

I guess when you only have a brain stem instead of the full package it gets tired quicker?  :p
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 08, 2002, 10:32:45 AM
"Shrubs" first year accomplishments were some of the best of any president in first year term in recent history, not to mention that since 9/11, he's done the following, and will probably go down in history as a great president (to Weazels dismay) with not only the highest ever approval rating, but cast a dark shadow of fear within the terrorists' community:

Quote
Fact Sheet: White House Outlines U.S. Accomplishments at APEC

                         Bush advances global cooperation on counterterrorism

                         Following is a White House fact sheet outlining U.S. accomplishments at the Asia-Pacific
                         Economic Cooperation (APEC) leaders' meeting held October 20-21 in Shanghai:

                         The White House
                         Office of the Press Secretary
                         (Shanghai, People's Republic of China)
                         For Immediate Release
                         October 21, 2001
                         Fact Sheet
                         U.S. Accomplishments Apec Leaders' Meeting

                         President Bush challenged the other APEC Leaders to seize the opportunity in the wake of the
                         terrible events of September 11 to unite in our common fight against terrorism and to reinvigorate
                         efforts to realize APEC's vision of free, open, and prosperous economies.

                         To achieve these ends, President Bush and the other APEC Leaders agreed to action in three key
                         areas: pledging cooperation on counterterrorism, responding to the global economic slowdown by
                         reinvigorating trade, and building capacity to support sustained growth.

                         Advancing Cooperation on Counterterrorism

                              Counterterrorism: President Bush has called for all states to join a sustained worldwide
                              coalition to defeat global terrorism. APEC Leaders responded with a statement
                              condemning in the strongest terms the terrorist attacks in the United States as a "profound
                              threat to the peace, prosperity, and security of all people, of all faiths, of all nations." The
                              statement -- a significant show of unity by economies representing 60 percent of world
                              GDP and one quarter of the world's Muslim population -- commits APEC members to
                              implement relevant UN conventions and resolutions, including those aimed at cutting off
                              financing for terrorist groups, such as al-Qaida. The APEC Leaders also committed to
                              specific steps to stop the flow of funds to terrorists, ensure aviation and maritime security,
                              strengthen energy security, and enhance border security and customs enforcement.

                         Responding to the Global Slowdown though Increased Trade

                              New Trade Round: President Bush believes that one of the most important things we can
                              do to reignite global growth is to expand world trade. Thus he and the other APEC
                              Leaders pledged to strongly support the launch of a new round of global trade negotiations
                              in November.

                              Shanghai Accord: The U.S. proposed the Shanghai Accord to focus APEC's work in its
                              second decade on implementing APEC's vision of free trade and investment. The Shanghai
                              Accord calls for a cut in trade transaction costs by 5 percent over five years, more rigorous
                              reviews of APEC members' trade liberalization plans, greater government transparency,
                              trade policies to encourage development of the New Economy, and creation of "Pathfinder"
                              initiatives allowing subgroups of APEC members to move ahead of others.

                              E-APEC Strategy: Under the joint leadership of the U.S., China and Australia, APEC has
                              issued the e-APEC Strategy, a roadmap for achieving a digital society. It identifies concrete
                              actions in three key areas for ensuring the growth of the New Economy: sound
                              macroeconomic and structural policies, legal and regulatory regimes to spur innovation and
                              investment, and education and training.

                         Building Capacity for Sustained Growth

                              Economic and Technical Cooperation: President Bush joined APEC Leaders in pledging to
                              enhance economic and technical assistance (Ecotech) to support members' efforts to
                              liberalize trade. The U.S. Ecotech Action Plan of "best practice' projects includes more
                              than 65 ongoing and proposed projects from the public and private sectors, ranging from
                              training customs officials through the Shanghai Model Port Project to supporting programs
                              to improve teacher training. The U.S. also funds the APEC Ecotech Clearinghouse, a
                              web-based compendium of Ecotech activities in APEC.

                              E-Learning: One of President Bush's priorities is using information and communications
                              technology (ICT) to support teacher training and promote higher educational standards. In
                              APEC, the U.S. is spearheading a number of such programs, including the APEC Cyber
                              Education Cooperation project, which has developed a knowledge bank of best education
                              practices, and the e-Language Learning Project to teach foreign languages over the
                              Internet.

                              Promotion of Biotechnology: President Bush believes the world must utilize the enormous
                              potential of biotechnology to end hunger. Biotechnology can help developing economies
                              increase crop yields, while using fewer pesticides and less water than conventional methods.
                              APEC Leaders agreed to endorse a U.S.-proposed high-level policy dialogue on
                              biotechnology.

                              Infectious Diseases: President Bush has led the effort to raise the profile and urgency of
                              cooperation on infectious diseases by being the first to pledge support for the global fund to
                              fight HIV/AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis that the G-8 launched at the Genoa Summit in
                              July. APEC Leaders agreed to link existing disease surveillance networks to better track
                              outbreaks and make prevention efforts more effective. The U.S. contributes nearly $1
                              billion annually to international efforts to combat HIV/AIDS and other infectious diseases.
Title: Lol, big shrub used.....
Post by: weazel on April 08, 2002, 10:36:59 AM
The song "Don't Worry Be Happy" as his administrations theme song.

Shrubbie should use the "Barney" song as his theme.

While he sits in Texas on vacation all Barneypublicans can sing along....I love you, you love me.......:D
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Eagler on April 08, 2002, 10:58:17 AM
just glad my "vacation" do not involve the workload his trips to Texas do .....

Ya think you have to be in D.C. to conduct biz? :rolleyes:

Out of an 8 hour day, how many of those hours did clinton waste thinkin about his "legacy", his next bj or how to get out of his latest jam?

How many hours do you think GWB spends considering the same?

Bush could work a 20 hour week and still be more productive for the country than willies 40 ...
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Kieran on April 08, 2002, 11:12:02 AM
Interestingly enough, one of Clinton's greatest weaknesses may have also been a virtue when it came to world politics. True or not, it was generally accepted the Clinton adminstration could be bought. Given a choice between outright conflict or backroom bribery, most countries will opt for bribery to achieve their goals.

This is not me saying Clinton accepted bribes, so don't ask for proof (Chinese campaign contributions?)- this is simply meant to state it put another option on the table for world leaders.
Title: Hehe or this one...
Post by: weazel on April 08, 2002, 11:14:21 AM
"If I only had a brain" from the Wizard of Oz.  :D
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Ripsnort on April 08, 2002, 11:29:29 AM
Quote
George W. Bush grew up in Midland and Houston. Bush is a former F-102 pilot in the Texas Air National Guard. He received a bachelor's degree from Yale University and a MBA from Harvard Business School.


With all due respect Weazel, many thought of Chuck Yeager as a "local yocal" southern boy without a clue of aeronautical engineering...ones own projection of ones self can be misleading to their successfulness.   As you can see, I highly doubt that Mr.Bush if indeed a true idiot as in your interpretion, would have succeeded him thru Military Pilot training, a Bachelors degree, and an MBA from Harvard.  Now, I'm not sure if you yourself have ever been past Community College, but University College is a different animal.
Title: Quit taking it so seriously and....
Post by: weazel on April 08, 2002, 11:33:58 AM
Follow the bouncing ball.

I Love You, You Love me.......:p
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Dowding on April 08, 2002, 12:03:16 PM
I'm sorry, but it would have taken a complete idiot NOT to capitalise on Sept 11. It's a fact that external crisis ultimately leads to greater approval from the electorate.

So Bush can't be that bad. :D He's only done what any leader has done in the past.

Surely it's 'No Alarms and No Surprises'? ;)
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Thrawn on April 08, 2002, 03:20:50 PM
Bush is an "at best" middling President.  Who happens to be President during chaotic times.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Raubvogel on April 08, 2002, 03:32:52 PM
I love it when folks from other countries grade our presidents.  What's the frame of reference?

FWIW, Bush has done more for me economically than Clinton ever did. It's about time military pay was brought a little closer to comparable civilian sector pay.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: lord dolf vader on April 08, 2002, 03:37:59 PM
and how many of you are anything other than registered republicans?

remember the majority of the people in the country didnt want him as pres.

during no election have the majority of americans ever wanted anyone named bush in the presidency its a undeniable fact ( not that ya wont deny it :)) holding hands and reciteing the party lind is cool just dont forget the truth. and the next election is comming and wars dont stay popular for long.

you read the quote about him smiling happy he got the trifecta. war national emergency and terrorist atack  and alot of other good ones.

http://www.lipsio.com/gainesvillehumanists/dubya.htm

``Lucky me. I hit the trifecta,'' Bush told [Mitch] Daniels shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to the budget director.
--Miami Herald, Nov. 29, 2001

just cant wait for the election to get a popularly elected pres. you may carry on backslaping till then. dont forget your clinton jokes.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Dowding on April 08, 2002, 03:42:57 PM
Quote
I love it when folks from other countries grade our presidents. What's the frame of reference?


History.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Mighty1 on April 08, 2002, 03:55:17 PM
lord dolf vader that should be the majority of the people who voted.

When 1/2 the people in the country didn't vote(and probably never have or will)  then there is no way you can say 1/2 the country didn't want him.

Besides I'm betting that only 25% of The Republicans in the U.S. voted and the rest of the votes came from the dumb bellybutton Dumocrats who couldn't figure out how the machine worked.:p
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 08, 2002, 04:15:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Raubvogel
I love it when folks from other countries grade our presidents.  What's the frame of reference?


Do you grade baseball players? Or hockey players?
Title: kneejerk
Post by: midnight Target on April 08, 2002, 04:26:48 PM
Another Clinton Joke:
Title: Democrat..Republican..there all
Post by: Wingnut_0 on April 08, 2002, 05:36:52 PM
the freaking same.

I read these boards and see the lines drawn but i gotta laugh, sry.  You folks argue back and forth over when their all scum sucking son's of squeak's.  

I could care less who Clinton scrogged or didn't scrogg while in office.  Regardless of how many numbers ppl wanna pull out, During the 8 years Clinton was in office the economy grew. Standards of living did raise.  

Bush....like was said earlier..he's popular cause of his stance after 9/11.   I'll measure him for his domestic policies and how that affects my living.  Cause in the end that's what most ppl care about.  

I just :rolleyes: folks cause most of ur politicians are doing the same thing that other sides politicians are doing.

And Hortlund, that reference to the Cuban boy....that was the right move.  A country (more like the cuban mass in FL) have NO right to a child that has a willing parent regardless where he lives.  If that was my child and he was kept I would of killed anybody in my way to get my son back.....
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Elfenwolf on April 08, 2002, 11:36:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Raubvogel
I love it when folks from other countries grade our presidents.  What's the frame of reference?


As a frequent reader of these Boards I'm thankful for the imput of Aussies, Euros or any other region's peoples. I feel having a global perspective adds a different dimension to our discussions.
Title: Re: Democrat..Republican..there all
Post by: Hortlund on April 09, 2002, 12:43:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wingnut_0
And Hortlund, that reference to the Cuban boy....that was the right move.  A country (more like the cuban mass in FL) have NO right to a child that has a willing parent regardless where he lives.  If that was my child and he was kept I would of killed anybody in my way to get my son back.....


Yeah... "the right move".

Look, I dont want to start a flame war over this, but humor me wingnut, answer the following questions:

1) How did that boy end up in the US? Did his mother give her life in the attempt to escape from a communist dictatorship with her son?

2) Do you think there might be a reason why the dad was not on the raft to the US?

3) What is your opinion about the reports saying that the dad was an abusive father (in the meaning that he used to beat the mother and the son)? Is that something you just discard as rumors or lies?

4) If yes to the discard as rumors or lies question above, do you think the same principle should be applied to all custody cases?

5) If a kid managed to climb over the Berlin wall in 1985, would it be right to just toss him back over because his mom or dad still was on the other side?

6) Did the boy have family in FL? (yes) What did he have left on Cuba? (a dad who used to beat him up and a grandmother) Where do you think the boy would have gotten the best life?

7) Do you think it is ok to send in SWAT teams to grab a kid from his relatives in the middle of the night? Do you really think that it is a good idea?

8) Do you have kids yourself?

If I was one of the relatives in FL who had that kid, and lost him that way...man...
Lets just say that I suspect that they discovered new degrees of hatred towards the Govt. You'll probably see them in the news again someday.
Title: Re: Re: Democrat..Republican..there all
Post by: Wingnut_0 on April 09, 2002, 01:22:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


[1) How did that boy end up in the US? Did his mother give her life in the attempt to escape from a communist dictatorship with her son?]

Answered ur own ?

[2) Do you think there might be a reason why the dad was not on the raft to the US?]

Cause like a ton of ppl they were no longer married/together for whatever reasons.  My ex-wife moved to PA, should I of gone too?


[3) What is your opinion about the reports saying that the dad was an abusive father (in the meaning that he used to beat the mother and the son)? Is that something you just discard as rumors or lies?]

There just that...reports....were they proven?  Dunno about ur judge status over there but here your innocent till PROVEN guilty.


[4) If yes to the discard as rumors or lies question above, do you think the same principle should be applied to all custody cases?]

See above

[5) If a kid managed to climb over the Berlin wall in 1985, would it be right to just toss him back over because his mom or dad still was on the other side?]

If 1 parent took the child, died along the way and the other parent was on the east side and wanted him back....yep...

[6) Did the boy have family in FL? (yes) What did he have left on Cuba? (a dad who used to beat him up and a grandmother) Where do you think the boy would have gotten the best life?]

As stated everything I've seen about his "reported abuse" came from her side of the family in FL.  So to answer your last part...best life has nothing to do with parental rights.  ie..ur child could receive better education in the USA should I have the right to keep him here instead of u his father?  What country or area you live in should have no bearing on whether the parent has the right to keep the child.

[7) Do you think it is ok to send in SWAT teams to grab a kid from his relatives in the middle of the night? Do you really think that it is a good idea?]

The family had already made threats to hide the child..etc  so yes..again..if ur son was being held by ppl that refused to give him up wouldn't u expect the authorities to get him back?  If you answer no then you'd be a sad excuse of a parent.

[8) Do you have kids yourself?]

I have an 8yoa son


 
Title: Re: Re: Re: Democrat..Republican..there all
Post by: Hortlund on April 09, 2002, 02:19:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wingnut_0
3) What is your opinion about the reports saying that the dad was an abusive father (in the meaning that he used to beat the mother and the son)? Is that something you just discard as rumors or lies?

There just that...reports....were they proven? Dunno about ur judge status over there but here your innocent till PROVEN guilty.
[/b]
Well, I'm not 100% sure how it works in the US, but here in Sweden there is a difference between CUSTODY cases and CRIMINAL cases. The "innocent till proven guilty"-part only applies to the criminal cases. In a custody case, if there are accusations about abuse, the court orders the social services to examine these accusations and, based on the findings in that examination, give a recommendation to the court, as to what is best for the child. This investigation is motivated solely by concern for the well being of the child, and it is not a criminal investigation. If suspicions arise that the child indeed has been abused, the police takes over the investigation against the suspect, while the social services tries to establish what has happened to the child, and how to take care of him best.    

If for example a mother and a father are slugging it out in the courtrooms over their kid, and the mother accuses the father of abusing the kid, you can be DAMN sure that those accusations are thoroughly investigated before the custody case is decided.

Now, I'm pretty sure that this is pretty much exactly the way it works in the US too. But I'm sure that one of the US lawyers would correct me if I'm wrong.

SO, if there were accusations against the father, these should have been thoroughly investigated BEFORE the kid was shipped back to Cuba. In these cases, you cannot risk being wrong. The consequences of that are unacceptable.  
Quote

5) If a kid managed to climb over the Berlin wall in 1985, would it be right to just toss him back over because his mom or dad still was on the other side?

If 1 parent took the child, died along the way and the other parent was on the east side and wanted him back....yep...
[/b]
I guess we see things differently. Anyway, this leads to a related question, where then would you draw the line? Suppose the kid says he wants to stay (like Julian did) …would you toss him back if he was 7 yrs old? 10? 12? 14? 16?
Quote

As stated everything I've seen about his "reported abuse" came from her side of the family in FL. So to answer your last part...best life has nothing to do with parental rights. ie..ur child could receive better education in the USA should I have the right to keep him here instead of u his father? What country or area you live in should have no bearing on whether the parent has the right to keep the child.
[/b]
As I said, the accusations should have been examined before any decision was taken to ship him back to Cuba.
Quote
The family had already made threats to hide the child..etc so yes..again..if ur son was being held by ppl that refused to give him up wouldn't u expect the authorities to get him back? If you answer no then you'd be a sad excuse of a parent.
[/b]
Didnt you say something about "innocent until proven guilty" up there?
Quote
I have an 8yoa son
[/b]
Ok, I was just wondering if the reason we didnt see this the same way was because you didnt have kids yourself.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Wingnut_0 on April 09, 2002, 05:00:24 AM
#3:  Hortlund..I was a police officer for 8 years before going into a different line of work.  In that 8 years I feel quite safe to say I've dealt with so many custody cases I couldn't even give an accurate guess as to how many.  But your long paragraph just goes into length about what I said.   Whether the case is civil custody or turns into a criminal investigation, allegations are just that...allegations unless proof exist to back it up.  And I have no doubt that the Justice department looked at the "facts" and concluded the allegations were baseless to act upon.

#5:  After 2 years of investigations involving crimes against children, I hold what children say as high suspect.  Their easily swayed into the parrot syndrome of repeating what someone else tells them to.  I could show you kids in my local area that when with 1 parent they say they wanna stay there then go tell the other parent the same thing.  Where to draw the line?  A child is a child until emancipated as an adult by the laws of whatever state/country their in.  Older "teens" and their thought have more bearing than a 5 or 10 year old's statement but it still doesn't resolve the fact their a minor and under their parents/guardians control.

As to your next to last statement..the court ordered the child turned over and the family refused and tried delay tactics....therefore I fail to see where that statement has actual bearing upon that particular action.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Mighty1 on April 09, 2002, 08:09:32 AM
Hortlund Did his Dad want him back? YES!

Was he an American citizen? NO!

Send him back!

Hell they should have sent the whole lot of them back. Most of them were illegals.

This was probably the one right thing Clinton did.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: fd ski on April 09, 2002, 08:14:19 AM
1) How did that boy end up in the US? Did his mother give her life in the attempt to escape from a communist dictatorship with her son?


Being an immigrant to USA myself, I'd hate to disappoint you, but 99% of people don't come here for democracy/freedom or any of those other lofty goals. They don't come here to "get away from the communist dictatorships". They come here for one thing:
- Oppurtunity to lead a decent life.

That lady took a 4 year old on a raft trip across the atlantic not so that he could be free. She took him there so that he could have ham on his sandwich, instead of just butter.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 09, 2002, 08:31:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
1) How did that boy end up in the US? Did his mother give her life in the attempt to escape from a communist dictatorship with her son?


Being an immigrant to USA myself, I'd hate to disappoint you, but 99% of people don't come here for democracy/freedom or any of those other lofty goals. They don't come here to "get away from the communist dictatorships". They come here for one thing:
- Oppurtunity to lead a decent life.

That lady took a 4 year old on a raft trip across the atlantic not so that he could be free. She took him there so that he could have ham on his sandwich, instead of just butter.


That is awfully presumptious of you ski. I mean...how the F&%# would you know what motivated that kids mother?
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 09, 2002, 08:34:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Mighty1
Hortlund Did his Dad want him back? YES!

Was he an American citizen? NO!

Send him back!

Hell they should have sent the whole lot of them back. Most of them were illegals.

This was probably the one right thing Clinton did.


Did his dad want him back? ..yes
So what? Just because some abusive father wants his kid back (or "is used as a tool in Cuban propaganda" rather), that doesnt mean squat to me.

Was he an american citizen? ..no
Again..so what? For a country that has been built by immigrants that is a really weird attitude.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 09, 2002, 09:03:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wingnut_0

#3: Hortlund..I was a police officer for 8 years before going into a different line of work. In that 8 years I feel quite safe to say I've dealt with so many custody cases I couldn't even give an accurate guess as to how many. But your long paragraph just goes into length about what I said. Whether the case is civil custody or turns into a criminal investigation, allegations are just that...allegations unless proof exist to back it up. And I have no doubt that the Justice department looked at the "facts" and concluded the allegations were baseless to act upon.
[/b]
There was no investigation as to whether Julian was abused by his father performed by any US authority. That is a fact, I thought everyone knew that. The US authorities simply had no way to conduct an investigation of that Cuban dad in Cuba. If they did it when he was in the US the investigation is a joke. Investigations like that take months to complete. There are two possibilities here. Either we misunderstand eachother, or the law in this aspect is very different in the US and in Sweden.

Sweden:
As soon as there is even a suspicion that a child is being abused, the court, the police, social services, hospitals doctors etc are REQUIRED by law to report that suspicion to the social services and/or the police. The social services are then required to fully investigate the accusations. This investigation continues until it is PROVEN that the child is not faring ill/in danger. I meet these social service-"investigators" regularly in my work, and let me assure you that they take their work very seriously, and they dont close an investigation until they are 100% certain that the kid is alright.  

US:
If the dad says he's a nice guy, ship the kid to Cuba?
Quote

After 2 years of investigations involving crimes against children, I hold what children say as high suspect. Their easily swayed into the parrot syndrome of repeating what someone else tells them to.
[/b]
Thats why you never ASK the children what they want. There are other ways to find out what the kid wants/thinks/feels. The most widely accepted method right now (and I believe this to be true all around the world) is where the psychologist asks the kid to draw "friendship circles" or, if the kid is smaller than that, to use dolls who represent various persons in the childs surroundings. I see this every week in the custody cases, and trust me, it works. What happens is that the child is given a set of dolls, "this is mom", "this is you", "this is dad", "this is your best friend" etc etc. Then the psychologist sits and plays with the kid for an hour or two. This is done at every session, approx 1-2 times a week for a number of weeks. After a while, a pattern appears in the way the kid is playing with the various dolls. Dont ask me for the exact psychological explanation for this, after all, Im no psychologist. BUT it becomes very obvious who the kid likes best, who he trusts, who he fears etc etc.
Quote

I could show you kids in my local area that when with 1 parent they say they wanna stay there then go tell the other parent the same thing. Where to draw the line? A child is a child until emancipated as an adult by the laws of whatever state/country their in. Older "teens" and their thought have more bearing than a 5 or 10 year old's statement but it still doesn't resolve the fact their a minor and under their parents/guardians control.
[/b]
First, Id like to note that you did not answer my question. Howcome?
Second, it is impossible to draw a line saying for ex that kids over 13 are allowed to testify in a custody case. Every child is different. You have to make an individual judgement based on that particular childs maturity level. To understand what maturity level a child has, and to decide whether the child should be allowed to "have its will", you HAVE to have some kind of investigation.
Quote

As to your next to last statement..the court ordered the child turned over and the family refused and tried delay tactics....therefore I fail to see where that statement has actual bearing upon that particular action.
[/b]
...you were a police officer for 8 years??
Last time I checked, delay tactics were still legal. You dont send in swat teams in a custody battle just because one side is trying to delay the verdict.
Title: lol Hortlund...
Post by: midnight Target on April 09, 2002, 09:26:17 AM
Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.
Title: Re: lol Hortlund...
Post by: Hortlund on April 09, 2002, 09:28:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.


Ok, so now Im puzzled. What is the lie?
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: midnight Target on April 09, 2002, 09:49:30 AM
Quote
What is your opinion about the reports saying that the dad was an abusive father (in the meaning that he used to beat the mother and the son)? Is that something you just discard as rumors or lies?


Quote
What did he have left on Cuba? (a dad who used to beat him up and a grandmother) Where do you think the boy would have gotten the best life?



Quote
So what? Just because some abusive father wants his kid back


Quote
There was no investigation as to whether Julian was abused by his father performed by any US authority. .......If they did it when he was in the US the investigation is a joke.


Kinda conflicted on that last one there...

Now Hortlund, Elian was the only survivor of his boat. Who exactly reported abuse by his Father? Do you not look into the credibility of witnesses in Sweden? He was placed with relatives who were his second cousins, who had to be found by authorities because they had no knowledge of him until that time. Where did they hear about the abuse?

This was a slam dunk in legal terms and the media circus was created by the Cuban community of Florida, GWB (Oh yea...he got political capital out of this one), and the media.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Eagler on April 09, 2002, 10:32:45 AM
I was glad when they nabbed Elian

Got tired of seeing his mug & his relatives on the boob tube

Yes, GWB benefited from the Reno circus as will Jeb :)
Title: Re: Re: lol Hortlund...
Post by: Elfenwolf on April 09, 2002, 10:41:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


Ok, so now Im puzzled.What is the lie?


One lie was that Elian was abused. His Cuban-American relatives claimed that in order to bolster their claim for custody. Now if you look at double standards, they are obvious.

If Elian and his mother were Swedes, for instance, and she illegally removed him from Sweden and fled to America, dying en route, do you believe the American Courts would allow shirt-tail relatives custody of Elian over the rightful custody order of his father? What would your opinion be if YOUR wife stole your child and fled to a foreign country?

Elian Gonzalez was used as a political football by the Cuban-American Community. When they failed, after being given every opportunity to comply with a Court Order demanding the surrender of Elian Gonzalez to authorities or face the forceful seizure of Elian, they chose to make a media circus of the event.

What amazed me about this case was that it took so long for justice to be served. These people had no legal right to Elian and were only concerned with publicity for their anti-Castro campaign.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Mighty1 on April 09, 2002, 10:58:56 AM
WOW I believe I'm saying this but well said Elfenwolf.

It is not the responsibility of the US government to investigate a citizen of another country who is not IN the US.

Nor do I really give a rats bellybutton if his father was abusive or not.

He came over here illegally and he had no legal guardian here so he was sent back were he belonged.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Wingnut_0 on April 09, 2002, 03:44:46 PM
Hortlund,

I answered every ? you put forth, but you just glossed over and wrote a long paragraph again just detailing out what was already said.

Investigations work the same, every state here as a DFS (Div of family sevices office) which received "abuse" calls...etc.  Just cause some anonymous neighbor says Man X is abusing his son next door, doesn't give them the right to take the child out of the home unless specific Evidence warrants.

I said I hold what kids say as suspsect, then you go into why you should have a physch doctor talk to them.  All your doing is bolstering what I said with a long drawn out explanation.  But you know where I saw elian say he wanted to stay there?  CNN in front of his relatives house surrounded by all the toys he was flooded with by them.  

I really can't see any arguement going further on your side because your whole belief is laid upon "allegations" from US relatives of events that if they did happen were years old.  There's no proof that they are anything but story's to the effect that it might lean against the father in this case.

I lean heavily upon parent's rights and proof because I have seen TOO many cases started, ppl dragged thru the mud, kids hurt (not by their parents) but by so called do gooders and see it end in what it started...nothing.  Here we took your child away on allegations and kept him and told him your bad then gave him back to you....

I could go on all night talking about related subjects but I'll stop here.  The heart of the matter Hortlund is that there were nothing but allegations, no evidence to support it, and therefore the parent received custody without further delay.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Udie on April 09, 2002, 04:21:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
1) How did that boy end up in the US? Did his mother give her life in the attempt to escape from a communist dictatorship with her son?


Being an immigrant to USA myself, I'd hate to disappoint you, but 99% of people don't come here for democracy/freedom or any of those other lofty goals. They don't come here to "get away from the communist dictatorships". They come here for one thing:
- Oppurtunity to lead a decent life.

That lady took a 4 year old on a raft trip across the atlantic not so that he could be free. She took him there so that he could have ham on his sandwich, instead of just butter.




 So what is freedom to you?   How much opportunity did she/he have in communist cuba?  There's a Vietnamese store owner up the street from my office.  He knows why he came here in the early 70's.  To get away from murderous communist thugs and to come to the land of freedom and choice.   The things you discribe in your 2nd paragraph are freedoms, especially if they can't have it in communist cuba.  

 That whole incedent was (to me) one of the worst things the Clinton administration did in his petty 8 years in oriface.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Elfenwolf on April 09, 2002, 04:50:47 PM
Hail Udie, I disagree. The Elian Gonzalez fiasco was never about the opportunity offered here as opposed to the lack of opportunities he'll have in his native Cuba- it was about the boy's mother basically stealing him from his father, risking both their lives to come here and rather or not we had the right to circumvent the rights of Elian's father in the name of "having a better life."

If you're REALLY concerned about Elian Gonzalez or the millions of other Cuban children just like him having better opportunities for success then write to your elected officials and urge the abolition of our trade embargo against Cuba. After all, we're doing more to harm the average Cuban's economic potential than Castro is.

Now concerning the Vietnamese who escaped the Communists in 1973-1975- Good for them, I'm glad we got them out because most of those rescued were part of the South Vietnamese government and would have faced harsh reprisals for their "collaboration" with American forces during the War. That being said, we didn't do a damn thing for the average Vietnamese citizens but instead took the wealthier ones and relocated them here.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Karnak on April 09, 2002, 10:06:47 PM
Govenor Gray Davis has done more for me economically that President George Bush, and I still voted against him.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 10, 2002, 12:59:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
it was about the boy's mother basically stealing him from his father, risking both their lives to come here and rather or not we had the right to circumvent the rights of Elian's father in the name of "having a better life."


Cmone Elf...how can you post crap like that with a straight face?

What do you know about what happened on Cuba before the escape?

And I cannot understand how people defend the desicion to send the kid back to one of the last communist dictatorships in the world. I really cant. It is just plain wrong.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Elfenwolf on April 10, 2002, 02:24:00 AM
Heya Hort, It's not about the system of government, it's about the rules of law. Sometimes things that are lawful can be morally wrong, and sometimes things that are morally correct can be unlawful.

Look at this objectively- What would you rule in this case? Remember, the Castro regime is NOT on trial here. You are asked to judge this case on rather the biological father of Elian Gonzalez has custodial rights in spite of being a citizen of (shudder) Cuba, or if distant relatives Elian has never seen before have superior custodial rights based upon their residency in the USA.

It's presumptious to assume we can offer him a life so much better than what he could possibly have in Cuba to the point of negating the family bond and the rights of his father to be with Elian, and Elian to be with his father. Are we THAT much better? We can seperate children from their surviving parent in the name  of "A Better Life?"

Hortlund, you are a judge. How could you possibly make a ruling denying parental rights based upon the residency of the father... and keep a straight face?
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Wingnut_0 on April 10, 2002, 04:30:49 AM
Let's not stop there Hortlund....let's remove inner city kids cause they statistically are found wanting....hell let's get farmer's kids cause they may have to work long hours on the farm and that's not right!  

Once you open Pandora's box.............
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: midnight Target on April 10, 2002, 10:54:25 AM
Additionally, if we stopped this idiotic embargo against Cuba Elian would be a millionaire today. Check it Out (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45158,00.html)

Quote
The Freedom Forum, a nonpartisan foundation dedicated to free press and free speech, presents the award annually along with $1 million. In Elian's case, the money could not be awarded because of the 40-year-old U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. Instead, it will go to help help needy refugee children living in the United States, Neuharth said.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Hortlund on April 10, 2002, 11:09:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wingnut_0
Let's not stop there Hortlund....let's remove inner city kids cause they statistically are found wanting....hell let's get farmer's kids cause they may have to work long hours on the farm and that's not right!  

Once you open Pandora's box.............


Hmm..yes... so if I have understood your little "analogy" correctly here, it should be interpreted as "if you investigate accusations of abuse, you might as well remove inner city kids, and "get" farmers kids".

As I said..I guess we just see things differently.

In my country, the rights of the child supersedes the right for an abusive father/mother to be a parent.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: midnight Target on April 10, 2002, 11:48:47 AM
1. A father's rights are not limited by his country of origin or residence.
2. Who exactly was doing the REAL abusing? A psychiatrist reported that it was the Miami relatives who were causing harm to the boy. Do you remember the videotape they made with little Elian stating that he wanted to stay, and obviously looking off camera for more cues on what to say.

Quote
Miami - April 18, 2000 - `This child ... continues to be horrendously exploited in this bizarre and destructive ambiance", this is what Dr. Irwin Redlener wrote to Attorney General Janet Reno and to Doris Meissner, who is the commissioner of INS.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Elfenwolf on April 10, 2002, 12:41:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


In my country, the rights of the child supersedes the right for an abusive father/mother to be a parent.


We also are concerned with the welfare and safety of children. Getting away from Elian Gonzalez, however, (as there was no evidence of abuse, only an allegation from those Miami relatives who had a vested interest in keeping Elian) child abuse is at epidemic proportions here. I have a friend who is a social worker and she says they're forsed to allow many "marginally" neglected and abused children to remain in an unhealthy enviroment due to a lack of foster care.

Now how many consevatives would be willing to increase our social spending to help take care of these neglected and abused children? Not many I bet.
Title: You can't see the forest for the trees..
Post by: weazel on April 10, 2002, 12:49:25 PM
Your argument has a flaw Hortland, there has to be proof of abuse.

As a father who was accused of child abuse, molestation, and a number of vile things by a vindictive ex-wife I have to say.......hogwash.

Child protective services are staffed by some of the most inept people I've ever dealt with, unless proof of abuse is absolute a child belongs with his parents.

I had my life destroyed by baseless allegations and was looking at a prison sentence until I spent a boat load of money proving my innocence.
Title: Interesting Gallup poll
Post by: Wingnut_0 on April 10, 2002, 01:05:24 PM
I re-read your statement several times and I have yet to figure out how u came up with the below text.  You apparently just made up some kind of answer cause you'd have to be .{deleted} to not get it.

Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


Hmm..yes... so if I have understood your little "analogy" correctly here, it should be interpreted as "if you investigate accusations of abuse, you might as well remove inner city kids, and "get" farmers kids".

In my country, the rights of the child supersedes the right for an abusive father/mother to be a parent.


I again don't know how more plain I can make the language.......My analogy was in reference to YOUR apparent belief that a parents living space (country/city/ whatever u decide next) affects whether they should regain custody (minus abuse).

Oh we shouldn't send him back cause Cuba's a communist country....what would be the next precedence after that? inner city's...etc.

And you should be a US attorney cause your apparently good at talking in circles and never listening nor responding correctly to rebuttels....    Your 2nd statement refers to "abusive father/mother"  which to be "abusive" there has to be again some sort of evidence to back up any claims of abuse.  Who's the witnesses in that case making the claims?  People that live 90 miles away and haven't been around the party's involved in quite some time.  

Let me stress Hortlund that regardless of what your country holds as admissable...in the US no matter what state it's in allegations mean nothing and do not hold up in court without evidence (circumstantial or direct).  Your argueing a case based on rumor and speculation that does not hold up in court.