Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: J_A_B on April 08, 2002, 12:13:23 PM
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About the long range shooting in AH (800-plus yard hits)
Is it realism or gameplay you guys want? It IS realistic for these weapons to be able to get hits at 1000 yards and even kills, particularly in the case of 20mm's. In a game like AH where it's of little concern if we waste our ammo or die, people will tend to take shots at longer ranges than they would in the real deal.
Realism is what AH currently has, at least in the technical sense. However, is that what people want?
I came here from AirWarrior. In AW, the bullets disappeared at 800 yards. In addition, there was no hit notification (no hitsprites) at ranges greater than 650 yards and at greater range than 650 bullet effectiveness was severely reduced--so at 650-800, you COULD hit the enemy, but you'd hardly damage him and wouldn't know whether you hit him or not. The result was people rarely bothered to fire at more than 650 yards and couldn't hit you at more than 800. This was hardly realistic from a technical standpoint (real bullets don't just magically disappear), but in terms of gameplay people seemed to be more content with it than with AH's full-realism gunnery. I certainly never saw anyone asking for gunnery range to be increased to 1K-plus :)
It can be argued that because there's (rightly) no fear of death/dying, the realistic aspects of the gunnery model are causing extremely UNrealistic side-effects in Aces High. It's possible that the artificial "gameplay" concessions can actually cause the game to become more realistic in practice, not less so.
So, what does the AH player base want? Consider this post to be an opinion poll, all opinions welcome :)
Count me as "undecided"--I see advantages to both systems and I can't really make up my mind as to which course is better.
J_A_B
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Think I'll join you in the "undecided" group, like you said, almost noone fired at 800 yards and above, most people fired bellow 300, most german aces prefered bellow 150 or so.
There ARE lots of 800-1000 yard kills in AH, just a few days ago, my brother took hits from the rear guns of a B17 at 2.0 icon range (2000 yards), I think net lag had ALOT to do with that one though but it is not unusual to get hits up to 1.5k with buff guns.
In form of getting the firing ranges more real life as it was and still is during air combat, it would be better to turn long range shots "off" however I don't know if I'd like this, I don't fire at more then 500 unless I just try to scare so wouldn't matter to my gunnery much.
Just don't know...
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Its not the guns, its the laser range finder icon.
IMO, there should be no rangefinder below 2k distance. It should be replaced by a "+" or "-" to signify you are gaining on it (+) or losing ground (-).
Try turning your enemy icons off when you are about to attack a buff. You will notice your aim will be waay off when you guess range. Also, when deflection shooting a con, even if he's inside d1.0, if you have no icons, chances are you will miss constantly. Why? Because people dont WATCH the plane, they watch the icon and glance at the plane to see where its manouvering towards. The major and only image used to decide how much lead to put is the rangefinder.
Without the laser range finder you have to get in CLOSE, inside d200 and at a good firing position or you will miss completely. I find THAT to be very realistic. I LOVE iconless fights, there's no sniping, very little HO's, ACM is intense as you lose sight of your opponent and he of you.. and you end up in a series of engage/disengage to reacquire visual... and of course, the BOUNCE is there!
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Bomber guns were harmonized at 1000 yards, or at least that's what my father's old flexable gunnery manual tells me.
As for the 2.0 buff kill, I routinly make tail gun kills at 1000 yards. How many pilots in WWII gave the tail gunner a straight, level, zero deflection shot from 3000 yards away. It's not like you don't have TIME to line up while they inch closer.
If you have an unloaded, non maneuvering target the 1000+ yard kill is reasonable. If people want to spray and pray, it's their hop, let 'em fly it however they want. I'd rather get pinged from 1000 yards out that have someone arbitrarily decide bullets only fly so far.
I flew AW once or twice; it was too much like an arcade game for my taste. Give me the realistic model used unrealistically every time.
JMHO. HTH. HAND.
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Agree to 100% with Tac.
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There are numerous pilot anecdotes regarding range both for short and long range gunnery in RL.
The fact that the guns are enabled out to the ranges they are is a simple acknowledgement of how they were in the real conflict. They WILL reach out that far. If a player wants to take advantage of it, that is and should be their option. It should not be the option of the targeted player to deny that to the shooting player.
I have seen the whine about the range icon. Frankly it doesn't hold water for long range gunnery without a lead computing gunsite. If the gunsight did the computations for lead THEN that would be a valid complaint vs having to depend on depth perception in the real world. A long range hit on a moving target (jinking and so on), is a matter of guessing the hold over and lead for directional transition. In other words a good deal of luck.
Using a 2 dimensional screen to depict a 3 dimensional world is not conducive to range estimation. Now if the sight were calibrated, like they had in the real world, where you could set the retical for a specific range and wingspan do determine ranges you might be able to judge the range without an icon. Given the variety of monitor screen size, image quality, dot pitch, vid card capability etc. that the player base has, a true calibrated gunsite is not a feasable option.
But then it's more fun to just complain about "spray and pray" tactics in a GAME than to just acknowlege someone was luckier or better at the GAME that the target was.
This expired horse has been thoroughly pounded below ground level several times.
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Iconless MA; now THAT could get interesting.
TAC, is it really nessisary to get in that close, or is it nessisary to be able to judge distance by size? It seems to me (and this could be way off base) that the only difference is the need to judge distance accuratly?
The other question comes in the form of enemy recognition. Since any country can fly any A/C how to you separate the good guys from the bad? It would be awfully easy, with no icons, to loose track in a furball and start pinging a friendly.
If you had icons sans range you would solve the ID problem, but you'd still eliminate the bounce with that huge neon sign over your aircraft. The alternative is to only have icons over friendly aircraft, however:
The last point I'll ask here is we're on computers, and aircraft are rendered in finite sized pixels. That could really mess up closure and range interpretation at long and medium range; there's no way to look at shape/dihedral/markings when your opponent is only three pixels in size.
It's a neat idea, but I don't think you'll ever see it in the main arena. I don't think it would be a sound business decision. Maybe set up an 'enhanced realism' area with friendly-only icons (still no range info)? Would such an area get many users?
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IIRC the longest range kill recorded with .50s was 1600yds, by an F-86 with an LCOS. So the .50s are lethal to that range (even though they seem to disappear ta 1500? or is that just where the tracers stop drawing?)
I like the idea of no hit sprites showing over a certain range.
Puck 'The Bounce' is alive and well in AH. I've gotten many perfect bounces. It's a matter of making your approach in the blind spots. If a person can't see your actualy aircraft that person can't see your icon either. Just last night I got 2 perfect bounces inside of 5minutes of each other. Dropped on an f4u from right above him (think he just wasn't paying attention). Came off the f4u grabbing alt, spotted a dot lower to the east and put my nose down. By the time I was in icon range I at his low 6 and closing fast. Came up and shredded the belly of his pony.
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Originally posted by Puck
Iconless MA; now THAT could get interesting.
Yeah..combined with killshooter it would be just about as fun as whacking yourself repeatedly in the groin with a hammer.
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Originally posted by Puck
Iconless MA; now THAT could get interesting.
TAC, is it really nessisary to get in that close, or is it nessisary to be able to judge distance by size? It seems to me (and this could be way off base) that the only difference is the need to judge distance accuratly?
Plane size in AH is almost the same fro d0 to d50, from d50 to d100 , from d100 to about d200, then from d200 to d400'ish. When I fly iconless and get on a con's 6 I just cant take the d500 shots im very used to taking with icons off.. because I miss. And I miss because I shoot thinking its at around d450 or so and in reality its d560 or d350! In short, I have to get a CLEAN 6 shot or be firing from a damn good angle to hit them. I find this to be far more immersive than simply relying on a perfect ranger to tell me exactly the lead I have to give to shoot something.
Originally posted by Puck
The other question comes in the form of enemy recognition. Since any country can fly any A/C how to you separate the good guys from the bad? It would be awfully easy, with no icons, to loose track in a furball and start pinging a friendly.
I said no laser ranger. the ID icon could stay. If it was up to me, id have it with friendly icons only, but i guess most people need the neon billboard.
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I like the no hit sprites after a certain distance idea. It has the capability of reducing spray-and-pray without neutering the guns. A realistic solution to the problem.
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Maybe not iconless but if there is just icon without distance?? Solution?? Would be fun to try..
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You know we have limited icons in the CT, right? Try it out and see what you think.
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Iconsless (friendly icons only) would be the best way IMO but would be pretty bad for newbies. Just get rid of the laser range icon range bellow 2000 yards and I'll be afairly happy man :)
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Originally posted by Kieran
You know we have limited icons in the CT, right? Try it out and see what you think.
Yes I know there is limited icons but they are not limited the way I suggested. In CT icons pop up in shorter distance right? I think it could show up like it does in MA (6.0) but it dont show distance at all.
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>>So, what does the AH player base want? Consider this post to be an opinion poll, all opinions welcome <<
Hiya JAB:
I've been flying AH for a while now, and was one of the original beta testers while I was still flying AW. FWIW, I know of no situation where a player can consistently get kills or score hits from 1k out. What I have noticed though, is the lag affected hits one can get on an nme. This is in no way consistent though. I was watching one of my films the other day and noticed a GV which scored hits on my a/c when I was over 2k away from him, I took 2 pings and was dead. I was extending away from the field after a jabo run, and know that he wouldn't normally be able to hit me.
The conns in the arena have been consistently atrocious for everyone, and I think that is what accounts for what you have written about.
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>>Why? Because people dont WATCH the plane, they watch the icon and glance at the plane to see where its manouvering towards. <<
Tac:
If as you say, people watch the icon, that is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard but, entirely possible from the newest of newbies. The icon is situated above an a/c, if a guy shot at the icon he would definitely miss. Wow! Are there really any guys like that? It is supposed to measure distance and that is all, once you get within guns range, the hard part begins; you gotta get the right guns solution or you miss.
I've seen guys get behind me as I bear down on an nme to steal my kill; hehe I'll be gaining within 550 yds and my countrymen will be 300 behind me and begin firing. So, I understand JAB's point but, that doesn't account for the 1k and beyond hits; thats lag IMO.
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Do .50 caliber AP or incendiary rounds make visible hit flashes at 800+ yards?
F.
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>>A realistic solution to the problem.<<
The most realistic solution would be to get those who sprya and pray and steal kills and conga line in their a/c is to re-train them to stop doing that :) Otherwise, its gonna continue to occur.
IMO, Realism is in direct proportion to those who are in that reality. Stick stirring, no icons, reduced icons, hit bubbles, killshooter pfft! All of that isn't real but, necessary mainly due to those who fly and fight.
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To reduce spray n pray, there needs to be a consequence.... other than running out of ammo.
And that consequence is gun jams.
-SW
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This Game AH is tooooo far away from Real, take IL-2 is the Best and Realistic Game on this Time offline and online also.
AH is a Game for Player there can´t good fly and need a Shooter. or like Star Wars :D
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Originally posted by Possi
This Game AH is tooooo far away from Real, take IL-2 is the Best and Realistic Game on this Time offline and online also.
AH is a Game for Player there can´t good fly and need a Shooter. or like Star Wars :D
Who is this guy?? ET or something??:confused: :rolleyes: :D
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He's just the Il-2 maroon that peruses our boards and posts just to say how good Il-2 is.
Hey, if Il-2 is so good and realistic.... why do they need a patch (1.04) to fix some of the more basic things... like elevator authority, flaps, and yet again- more FM revisions.
Answer this question and I'll be either amazed or completely stupified by your answer.
-SW
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I think the biggest influence on long range shooting we miss are windeffects.
AH has those ugly windlayers, but bullets are not influenced by wind in AH.
Even if the effects are small, they would have much impact on long range shooting, cause the longer the bullet travels, the stronger the effects will be.
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I totally agree with Tac: no RANGE (only ID icon) icons above 1K would be funny!
Bye
Lucchini
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hmm, you all need Icon´s , very realistic :rolleyes:
IL-2 need a patch becouse not all FM are ready so it fixed:D
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Originally posted by Possi
hmm, you all need Icon´s , very realistic :rolleyes:
IL-2 need a patch becouse not all FM are ready so it fixed:D
I love the no-icon realism Ayatollah of IL-2 ...
they find perfectly normal to lose visual on a contact at 500 meters ....
Sad very sad ...
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Most guys just forget that in RL you can track a moving target at 500 meters much easier, than a group of pixels on a flat computer screen that are "at the same distance".
Not to mention that the same object is much smaller on a 17" screen than in reality.
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You just lost him when he fly over the Terrain and this normal and real after the Patch 1.4 this black dots also go away so is one more real. But Probs with the Monitor is right...:(
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I don't think (but I could be wrong) that the camouflage was really efficient in flight .
It's far easy to spot a moving target than a non-moving one.
(From real life hunting experience ;))
The holy icon-debate come from people who say IRL there is no icon (that's true I agree) ,so there should be no icon at all (here ,I don't agree).
But in the meantime they forget that the EyeBall Mk I as far more definition than any High End monitor ...
So the icon are not realistic but their absence is not either...
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Exactly Straffo... I don't remember the exact quote, but the reason Richtofen painted his plane and his entire Flying Circus was in wild colors was because it didn't matter what color your plane is, it's still easy to see moving against the sky or ground.
It might not appear that way in black and white photos or clips, but the little footage of color air combat I've seen, it's not exactly hard to see planes moving against the terrain.
-SW
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Possi, if all of the FM aren't ready... then why are you still here spewing rediculous notions that it is more realistic? If the FMs aren't right, then it ain't exactly realistic... now is it?
You want to know what's unrealistic? The planes bob and weave on every axis in Il-2. Unless there are winds, or thermals, this will not happen. Since Il-2 does not model either, then that is simply another fudged effect.
As far as icons, Il-2 has 'em. Most of the servers I've played on had them on. But that's besides the point, I thought I told you a long time ago that games are scale replicas of the real thing. So you are playing on a very small scale, do you honestly believe you can't see things further and with more detail in the real world than you can on a computer game???
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Possi, if all of the FM aren't ready... then why are you still here spewing rediculous notions that it is more realistic? If the FMs aren't right, then it ain't exactly realistic... now is it?
You want to know what's unrealistic? The planes bob and weave on every axis in Il-2. Unless there are winds, or thermals, this will not happen. Since Il-2 does not model either, then that is simply another fudged effect.
As far as icons, Il-2 has 'em. Most of the servers I've played on had them on. But that's besides the point, I thought I told you a long time ago that games are scale replicas of the real thing. So you are playing on a very small scale, do you honestly believe you can't see things further and with more detail in the real world than you can on a computer game???
-SW
In AH the need Icons becouse there can all fly the same Plane, also the Graphik is not so good like in IL-2.
The FM in IL-2 on this Time is more Realistic that in AH and this is Fact, you can say what you want you cant change it, what real Pilots say :)
If you think AH got the Best FM, it´s on you, not my Prob, i can life with that. Nice Day :)
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If the real guns were able to score hits at 1000 yards, so be it. But real guns also get enormous dispersion due prolonged fire aswell as jams, hi-G shots also had that effect. The sprayers are sprayers for 1000 yards or for 200 yards ...
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Don, go ahead and turn off the icons when you're chasing a con and you get inside d1.0
And then tell me you still have the same accuracy you have when you got the icons on. And please, do try deflection shots, not straight 6 shots.
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In the Combat Theater people can fly for Germany or Britain, depending on the setup, Russia or Germany, Japan or America, or America & Britain & Germany... There the icons are short, not off, because no icons simply is not realistic. It may be harder, but it's not realistic. Nothings really realistic on a PC, the premise of a computer is simulation. Does AH simulate combat well? Of course, 400+ paying customers can't be wrong. Likewise for Il-2.
Did I ever say the AH FM was better than Il-2? No, you said the Il-2 FM is more realistic which is simply not true. Both have their strong points, and both have their weak points. The degredation of engines as they go higher isn't modelled well in Il-2, it is in AH. The engines overheat in 5 minutes at full throttle in Il-2, well the 190 engine could run at WEP for 10 minutes before it had to be shut off without risking engine melt down. The whole engine management is a facade in Il-2, the idea that an engine would overheat in 5 minutes at full throttle is beyond laughable since it's in many accounts of real world pilots that they would run full throttle for a good 20+ minutes in a dogfight.
So to say Il-2 is more realistic is simply not true. It may do some things better than AH, but AH does some things better than it.
As far as graphics, when Il-2 hits the MMP department and can display objects with more detail further like AH, then you'll see why AH has somewhat simplified graphics. Not to mention it's 1/20th the size of Il-2.
So believe what you want, the facts are there. You can believe real world pilots all you want, the data and figures are all over the place indicating the aircraft in AH are very close to hitting their real world counterparts... just like in Il-2. Very close and dead on, however, aren't the same thing. You'll never get dead on with a PC.
-SW
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Il-2! It is not only a sim, but the world savior! That's right folks! Il-2 will end world hunger, completely rid the world of terrorism in all its forms, and cure cancer! The best part though, is it can also be used as a dessert topping!
Just wanted to add that I think Il-2 is a great GAME just like AH is a great game. I have both and spend more time in AH than with Il-2. To each their own.
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Actually, even though planes are easier to spot when they are flying and moving fast, they are not easy to spot against the ground when they are camoflauged good. Those of you who fly in real life know that even the civilian planes, which are usually white and shiny, can be difficult to see, and you know they are there.
Spot a well camoflauged plane against the ground is difficult, take a look at Desert camoflauged 109's, they are one with the ground, they are of course easier to see in flight but still very hard. Icons should be there, I think it is funnier without but most people don't.
Remove laser range finder and it's a great step on the way of making it both more fun and more realistic. Estimating range is one of the most difficult things you can do in the air.
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Math,
You prefer to play AH only because you are an Üntermensch. If you were cultured and superior you would fly Il2.
Subhumans prefer sissy, watered down, pretend flying games.
phfft.
F.
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Remove laser range finder and it's a great step on the way of making it both more fun and more realistic. Estimating range is one of the most difficult things you can do in the air.
I wouldn't mind the "laser range finder" going away, I think that with the limitatons that trying to represent a 3D world on a 2D monitor require some kind of a range indicator, even if it a bar or circle thing like in WW2OL. Doesn't have to be gone, but it doesn't have to be a perfect readout either. Something in the middle would be good.
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Range should be done away with.... except when the bandit is in your gunsight.
I don't know of any airforce that at one time or another didn't have atleast a ring gunsight with set notches to indicate various distances for certain wing spans.
-SW
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Here we go again. This time I ran out to the garage, opened a few boxes and pulled out a few manuals from my instructor days, specifically: FM 23-65 Browning Machine Gun Caliber .50 HB, M2 -- since my memory of events 10 years in the past is obviously open to error.
I clearly remember engaging targets at 800m with a loose mounted, open iron-sighted single M2, usually mounted on the commander’s copula of an M-113. I don't recall any formal qualification (a la Tank Tables), however, I did find some good ole "Task, Conditions and Standards" for engaging popup targets on a formal machinegun range with the M2.
They include:
Task -- Engage multiple double E-type silhouettes at 400, 500 and 1,000 meters while wearing the protective mask (nice little handicap there!). Conditions -- blah blah 400, 500, 1000 protective mask bla blah... Standards -- gunner must impact one burst on each target within 45 seconds (while limited to 42 rounds)
or,
The same conditions using the AN/TVS- night sight (a handicap IMO)
or,
Gunner must impact one burst on the 1,000 meter target within 25 seconds (with only 14 rounds total to work with, leaving only two ranging bursts, perhaps three)
or,
As far as aerial engagements (with that handlebar deal I never saw in use) -- Superelevation (compensation made for the pull of gravity on the projectile) is another consideration for some weapons, but the caliber .50 MG projectile is basically flat out to 800 meters. Therefore, the gunner does not have to worry about it.
Now is a pintle mounted M2 different from 6 .50s hard mounted and zeroed in a fighter plane with an optical sight that helps in range estimation? Yes, and not in a positive way IMO in areas ranging from the sight picture to vibrations and limited ammo requirements for qualification. Were the targets moving? Well, no... but then they are providing about as much relative movement as most sky jousters or runners who fly the wings level, steady extension. Again, IMO the infrequent (and hardly game impacting) but noticeable hits at 1,000 plus meters are due to lazy extensions and experienced virtual gunners. Set convergence to a historical 400m max limit and these "issues" would evaporate entirely. Again, IMO.
Charon
BTW: on a personal note, the ATT broadband techs will be out to check the wiring setup in my new house tomorrow, so I may actually be able to fly more than 10 minutes without a "host connection lost" message popping up. :) First time since the New Year (please let it be solved!) Hope to see more of you all soon in the unfriendly skies.
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OK.guys .I read all the post but am I confused..you talking about the icons on the map ? Errr ya got to get vis on your enemy{duh} ..LOL only thing I find hard(AW pilot here be nice) after actually getting a somewhat feel for FR the actual plane size is different and I've been 300 and less away and miss alot. In aw we did have a "hit bubble " which helped. Seems with AH and in AW many things determine success but I found 2 that matter to me the most. Of coure is your connection which varies greatly from person to person and your Video. Thats one reason I liked the hit bubble it kind of evened things out a little. Like I said you could out manuever someone get on their 6 and miss like hell all the while there bud slams your six when 1st enmy shoulda died long time ago.. excuse my AW mentality. After 6 yrs playing it hard to adjust.. Many have different views on AH concerning correctness and trying to get asa much FR as possible. I respect that. But for not the die hard (i want to fight like a real plane) the rest kind of find this difficult..LIke HO's Suk.. in AW you needed to really rail a pilot HO to even slightly hurt them. in aH seems my 38 is a beacon for HO's..so I dont fly it...Ho's were considered dweebish in AW.. I know I know what your gonna say...well
anyway and watch out fer my mossie ! TY PAK
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Well I saw a interview with Galland about a month ago. HE said that he use to dive on the enermy plane and when the plane filled up his aimer, he use to pull the trigger.
CharlieB
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"I'm with you fellers"
Blutik
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Personally, i think the gunnery is about as good as it should be.
It still makes you work for that kill, its not exactly hitting a barn door with a banjo, but at the same time its not so unforgiving to make air combat in AH less rewarding.
I understand there are many hard core flyers out there that want a real chalange and want EVERYTHING to be %100 acurate.
But as with any bussness, you need to cater for the masses, not just the elite few. AH is a steap learning curve as it is, we loose alot of flyers in there first 2 week trial, but if you start making the whole ablility of getting kills harder than ever, we would have even more fresh blood leave after 2 weeks and maybe quite a few of the exsisting ones who are not so HOT with their aiming.
I concider myself to be fairly good, but if i found i wansent hitting anything it would really spoilt the game for me.(prob would never happen cos im an ACE :) )
As will all online games, the balance has to be between what is realistic and what works for the masses.
Some may well want a more REALISTING gunnary, but is it going to be practicle.?
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What happened in WW2 is academic. AH needs to be playable on a PC platform. We have different monitors with different resolutions. And as a recent poll has shown, the AH membership spans all ages. It’s OK for some young whipper-snappers to say that no icons is the only way to go. But old gits like me cannot see the planes without some sort of external guidance. One of the reasons I left WB3 alone was that planes didn’t begin to look like planes till 200 yards. Even in AH I still miss shots on a bogie who is flying against a grey background (rock, for example), simply because I can’t see the actual plane.
Colour differentiation is difficult for some of us. I really appreciate the way AH makes all enemy icons RED, and not some other colour. This makes the numbers easier to read. I have no trouble seeing red on green.
No icons may be more realistic to some, but unplayable to others. I am in the second group. So for me, I’m afraid that No Icons = Account Cancellation, regardless of perceived realism or any other ideals.
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>>.50 caliber AP or incendiary rounds make visible hit flashes at 800+ yards? <<
Not for me ...ever.
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If you wanna see what it is like to be fired at from d2.0, grab a 262. Guaranteed every dweeb and his brother will spray from those distances. Personal record was a P47 firing from d2.5 my 6 ;)
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Hi guys. I've been on FA1.5 and AH for some time now and I've had a complete blast with a lot of you folks. I usually spend my time (short now) in the CT because I prefer the historical matchups to the open planeset. I ran AH for the longest time with a PII233 at around 12-15 FPS under normal circumstances to 4 in a fight or smoke but it still been the most rewarding game out there. Anyhow...I upgraded recently to a PIII733 and can fly at 50+ FPS most times.....the gunnery got a whole lot easier and I could turn up the resolution a bit....I went ahead and bought IL2 recently and I have to admit...man the graphics are great...the FM im not sure about but I just run the game in Quickmission mode and film it just to re-run the film from all the planes.....its just plain awsome. Im not not supporting one or the other since they are 2 seperate program styles ect. but I can't really think of one bad thing about IL2 except its too damn hard to hit anything. Im not sure about actual gunnery in WWII in real life, but if it was as hard as IL2 I wouldn't have gotten any kills before I eventually augered at some point. Im taking a break from AH for a bit but its been a hell of a good time with you all. Cya another time.
Higgins_Mskt
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>>Don, go ahead and turn off the icons when you're chasing a con and you get inside d1.0 <<
Tac:
Once I'm within in guns range I focus on the nme a/c and not on the icon. If I'm doing things right, he will eventually fill my windscreen and I will blast him. A long range shot is desperation; kinda like marking him just in case he augers so I can get the kill or assist ; a waste IMO.
I use deflection a lot cuz, I know nme is there but under my nose somewhere. I use view keys til I acquire nme and can anticipate where he will move; then I take my shot. Like most deflection shots, it's a best guess kinda deal. In these cases, range icons don't mean anything, which is the point I was making.
Hehe, call me crazy but, that what I learned about acm a long time ago. ;)
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Baaaaaa, just perk ALL the planes w/ .50's and Hispanos...perking anything will fix it! :rolleyes:
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I will some of those great fights we had Higgins.
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My 2 Cents.
Well if you ask me you want realism first thing is when you take off In real life you had Air Traffic Controlers. You had to make sure you knew where you was going In a tail drager. Pilots had to keep an eye on Engine tempeture all the time. The P51D fuel management was a must. You had to make sure your rear seat fuel tank was run down before you even got into a fight. You want realism well take that stupid map off that shows where the enemy is coming and you got more realism. And yes 1,200 yard hits are possible but getting the pilot wounded at that range was 1,000,000,000 to 1.
Navagation <--- We have a stupid map!
Where is the enemy <--- We have a stupid map with icons!
Realism:
No stupid map with icons, No range counters, manual fuel managment, manual temp management. The sun in your eyes, rain more clouds.
9G's will knock you out for a period of time not just one second. I flew a P51D upsidedown for 15 minutes.
Is there more realism fetures that need to be look at?
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I flew a P51D upsidedown for 15 minutes.
In real life, I would have thought that there was a limit to how long a plane could be flown inverted before oil starvation entered the equation. Can you comment on this?
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Well I have seen in many articles that you could not fly a WWII fighter inverted for to long. Now I don’t know if this is true or not I have done it on AH I was just wondering if there is a fix for this in the future or any talk about it. It would be a good option for future upgrades to the game that is if it is true.
Also I have seen that when you flying a bomber and you are your own tail gunner and you get hit and go to pilot position you are wounded. Even in the pilot position.
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I have played IL2, AH and WB2.xx and WB3. IL2 I must say is ruined by some (smal) things.
*The mussel flash is like looking into the sun.. I am blinded when fireing my 109's cowl Mg.
*The 20mm tracer is Blue/or purpel looks like a klingon bird of prey when i push the trigger.
*There dont seem too be bullets except when the tracer is represented. I mean every bullet u fire is NOT a tracer. I have fired at planes seeing the first tracer going abowe the wing, and the second going under, and no damage. When pushing the trigger for 3 seconds it would be like a beam of bullets.
Eks fiering MG ----------------------------------------------------
Mg in IL2 --- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- -----
I have tested it online, and on Lan with some friends,,, and we all draw the same conclusion. IL2 seems too fire Laser balls not bullets.
AH is probably the closet thing too real u can get in a flight sim. Also the damage model in AH is extremly close too what pilots, and guncams in ww2 tells.
In WB and IL2 I have fired 5 seconds burst into figthers with 2 cowl 13mm in 109G6. And the target did not go down.
Reinmetall-Borsig Mg 131.. 13mm.
Prosjectile weight: 1.5 oz
Mussel Velocity: 2700 ft/sec
Rof: 850 RPM
That is 14 rounds per second x 2 mg = 28 rounds per second.
Information I have read, and seen. shows that a average figther is seriously dammaged on an average of 20-25 hits of 13mm. That mean a 1 second burst of dual 13mm should bring down a figther on an average.
Price. Alfred. Figther aircraft-combat development in ww2. London, arms and armoure press. 1985.
So what du u guys think abouth AH damgd system and gun range???
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It might be fun to try, this iconless MA. I have been thinking about this concept for almost 10 years.
But.....
Lets face the idea that this is a game to have fun, and that there is nothing real about simulated air combat on a PC.
IMO try what Tac says to do. Turn off icons for one game session (3-4 hours at least) and report on the results. The learning curve would be enormous and the CT as it is now would not even come close.
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Most people complain about the game not been realistic but how can you make it so that it seems realistic I think it will be a loop people will just complain about something else. Another thing I have seen that will never make a game as realistic as it can be is routing to game to other player.
Smaller arenas 250 Player can help on that 450 to 500 players online in one arena will always be a lag fest. I have seen NIKI pull a U turn on my six they say it was a merge but how did he do that if we went head on.
Me I rather turn off all visual help and maps and turn on ground collisions. Also the AAA on each airfield I know where they all are before I even get there. Real pilots did not have all this luxury that AH has.
The entire game would have to change so it can be as close as possible to real life. I have been looking for a game that would take it to the limits but I don’t think that will ever happen because most people will just not like the realism in a flight sim.
No visual help what so ever would be nice and a few other options that will bring the situation awareness to the game.