Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Karnak on April 08, 2002, 09:32:44 PM
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Ki-44-IIb Shoki "Tojo":
(http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/japan/nakajima_ki-44.jpg)
Engine: one Nakajima Ha-109 at 1,520hp.
Speed: 378 mph
Ceiling: 36,745 ft
Initial Climb: 3,828 fpm
Range: 1,050 miles.
Armament: two 12.7mm Ho-103 machine guns above the engine and two more in the wings.
Ordanance: two 100kg bombs.
Number Built: 1,233 of all versions. The Ki-44-IIb was the major version.
The Ki-44-IIb would give the Japanese a fast climbing interceptor with good speed and acceptable armament. This fighter could be used in the CT with no restrictions other than launching from land bases.
Ki-84-Ia Hayate "Frank"
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/ki84-i.jpg)
Engine: one Nakajima Ha-45 at 1,900hp.
Speed: 392 mph
Ceiling: 36,090 ft
Initail Climb: 3,600 fpm
Range: 1,347 miles.
Armament: two 12.7mm Ho-103 machine guns above engine and two 20mm Ho-5 cannon in wings.
Ordanance: two 250kg bombs.
Number Built: 3,514 of all versions. The Ki-84-Ia was the major version.
The Ki-84-Ia would give the Japanese a fighter that, unlike the N1K2-J, saw widespread use and can challenge the best American and British fighters. Due to its production total it would be justified in enabling it at all Japanese held land bases. This fighter alone would make a huge difference in the effectiveness of the Japanese defenses.
H8K2 "Emily"
(http://www.j-aircraft.com/walk/hiroyuki%20_takeuchi/h8k21.jpg)
Engines: four Mitsubishi MK4Q Kasei 22 at 1,850hp.
Speed: 290mph
Ceiling: 29,000ft
Climb: 10 minutes, 12 seconds to 16,400ft. Average climb of 1,600ft per minute.
Range: 4,450 miles.
Armament: five 20mm Type 99 Model 1 cannon, one each in bow, dorsal, tail turrets and two beam hatches, and four 7.7mm Type 92 machine-guns, one each in ventral, port and starboard fuselage sides and cockpit hatches.
Ordanance: eight 250kg bombs or two 800kg torpedoes.
Number Built: 167 of all versions. The H8K2 was the major version with 112 built.
This is quite probably the most capable bomber the Japanese used in WWII. Quite frankly, compared to the Allies, the Japanese are screwed when it comes to attacking things. The H8K2 can at least carry 8 550lb bombs, that is enough to inflict some damage and is twice as much as any other Japanese bomber that I have seen. The H8K2 also has the destinction of being extremely durable, quite possibly the most durable aircraft feilded by any nation in WWII. Because the H8K2 is a flying boat it would have to be enabled only at ports and coastal bases (where it would spawn in the water like a PT Boat).
B6N2 Tenzan "Jill"
(http://www.qt.org/worldwar/weapons/japan/jaf/b6n2.jpg)
Engine: One Mitsubishi MK4T Kasei at 1,850hp.
Speed: 301mph
Ceiling: 29,670ft
Climb: 10 minutes, 24 seconds to 16,400ft. Average climb of 1,575ft per minute.
Range: 1,085 miles.
Armament: one flexible rear-firing 7.7mm Type 97 machine-gun and one flexible 7.7mm Type 97 machine-gun firing through a ventral tunnel.
Ordanance: one 800kg torpedoe or similar weight of bombs.
Number Built: 1,268 of all versions. The B6N2 was the major version with 1,133 built.
The B6N2 would be a semi usable Japanese carrier based stirke plane. While its defensive armament, like the B5N that it replaced, remains effectively useless the B6N is armored and has self sealing fuel tanks. It saw wide use fron 1943 on and unlke the much more powerful B7A2, there can be no argument about using it from carriers.
Here is an image of the H8K 2 in version .31 of "Target: Rabaul":
(http://www.targetrabaul.com/images_snaps/emily_121301.jpg)
Let's get this bird in AH before Target: Rabaul is released.
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Personally I think 8 Japanese aircraft are needed to fix the imbalance - your four, plus the Ki.100, the J2M3 Raiden, the D4Y
Susei, and the Ki.45 Toryu.
Stick those 8 in, and raise all Japanese ENY values until the US pilots cry "Uncle!".
What a spectacle a PTO CT would be then!
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I wonder if one of the reasons we see so few japanese AC is that each one is a different model offering limited variants...
SUPER and NATE might actually have to work! +)
each one requires its own 3d model
SKurj
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Or maybe the IJN and IJA didn't have all that great an air force to begin with and most planesets between them and the US forces in the pacific would be unbalanced.
just a thought
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What does balance have to do with HTC's production of the AC?
By your argument Preon we would only have allied AC to choose from in both the PTO and ETO...
SKurj
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Oh, I thought the idea of the new aircraft was to "fix the CT imbalance". I was just saying that that's not too entirely possible without detracting from realism. The US won for a reason.
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The US won for a number of reasons. US had:
Numerical superiority, better pilot training, better communication between pilots during combat, better food and medical for pilots, it valued individual pilots and made an effort to rescue them when downed, better aircraft construction and maintenance, etc.. In addition, we could read Japan's coded messages and in many cases knew what their plans were ahead of time.
If you look at aircraft performance for late war a/c, the only area the US didn't have an overwhelming advantage in was aircraft performance.
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Originally posted by Preon1
Oh, I thought the idea of the new aircraft was to "fix the CT imbalance". I was just saying that that's not too entirely possible without detracting from realism. The US won for a reason.
Good point.
I'm still bewildered about this whole imbalance notion. Granting that there aren't as many choices for the Emperor's fliers as there are for the Yankee Dogs, I certainly don't feel like the Tony is grossly outclassed by any of the US planes. In air-to-air combat, that is.
And who cares about air-to-ground?
- oldman
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Although I froth with anticipation of additional japanese planes in AH, I accept that any historic planeset will be imbalanced . And that's the way it should be .
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Originally posted by Oldman731
And who cares about air-to-ground?
- oldman
anyone that's got an enemy carrier group parked 5 miles offshore.
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The Japanese had some very capable aircraft, their Carier strike aircraft were considerd the best in the world at the time,thye had some fantastic fighter aircraft some that were possed with performance equal to or better than in certain areas than US types they were up aganst at variuos times during the war. The Japanese had at the begining of the war the best Naval air arm in the world, nobody was as well trained as they were. At Midway the US got lucky. Aftet that it was largely a war of atrition coupled with what oboe said.
A very large part of the AH comunity are very interested in the ground aspect of AH, that is to say we play to more than just dogfight. We play to take bases kill GV's and ride them into battle. Land see and air are all combined aspects of gameplay and make this a more interesting and fullfiling gaming experence.
The idea that US wone the war because our equipment was beter is a comon historical misconception and the ethnocentic attitude has in part brought us to the point we are now with our plane set.
Hopefully in the future we will see more Japanese aircraft added and ones that represent the best they had to offer So as to compeat on an even basis in the MA and to bring diversity to the CT.
One of the most hated and loved/used rides in the MA is George a Japanese plane.
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I like the list howeaver the Jill should not be added in place of the Grace IMO. The Grace is a far more capable aircraft, and one that would most likely be used, why fly a Jill when you could take a TBM insted? Seriously the only place the Jill would find use is in the CT or an event, the Grace on the other hand would be usefull everywher. With it's 13mm defensive MG to it 2 20mm type 99 model 2's firing forward, 800kg bombload, and excelent handeling (preportadly as good as a zero) and 360mph speed, Who would not want to use it?
See this:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49988
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Grace:)
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Heya Karnak,
Honestly the only thing that could even out the CT in a PAC war plane set would be the 427MPH KI-84 Frank. And I'm not even sure that A/C ever really existed. With the 400MPH Frank the Hellcat would be meat but the F4U of any model would be dominant. Maybe not in the M/A where furballing is the name of the game but in the CT flying missions at 20K plus the F4U-1 can more than hold it's own against any Japanese A/C that saw action in WW2.
And even with the Ki-84 the F4U-4 is always a quick fix. The F6F was a hare away from being replaced at wars end anyway. And then the F8F would have been untouchable.
Personally I would like to see the Oscar,P-40, P-39, P-38F, A6M2, KI-44, FM-2 and P-51A added for a real 1943 plane set.
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I'm inclined to agree with F4U...
The thing I do like about WWIIOL combat is it takes time to kill something. This makes the fights more of a chess match than what we usually see in AH. One-ping kills are no fun, and if they occur too much it takes a lot of the fun away from the sim (DoA became unplayable to me over that issue last time around).
There are plenty of early war planes that would provide very interesting combat. In addition, bombers such as the Ju88 and A20 wouldn't be such easy kills, making them far more profitable to use.
Who wouldn't like to fly/fight a Ki-43/P40/F4F? Who wouldn't want to pilot a Ju-88 and realize there is better than a 25% chance you would land the sortie?
Move backward first, then resume the forward progression.
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F4UDOA,
The big thing that the Ki-84 would bring to the table is a late war Japanese fighter that was produced in huge quantities and thus could not be relegated to perked and back field status like the N1K2-J. An F4U-1D (the Ki-84-Ia's contemperary) with an altitude advantage would be able to handle the Ki-84 pretty well. However, if the Ki-84 had the altitude advantage the F4U-1D is worse off than the Ki-84 in the prvious scenario was. Co-alt all bets are off. A well flown Ki-84 can gain the energy advantage, it out climbs and out accerates the F4U-1D.
The few veteran Japanese pilots left in 1944 who were flying Ki-84s and N1K2s regarded the F6F the same way they had regarded the F4F when flying A6M2s, as easy kills.
The single biggest difference between the Americans and Japanese in 1944 was pilot training. The signifigance of that dwarfs the signifigance of all other factors combined. The same was true for the Luftwaffe when compared with the USAAF and RAF, yet nobody complains that that fact is not modeled in the European Theatre CT setups by only giving the Germans their second rate equipment. That is the argument I see being used against adding the competitive Japanese fighters and attack units. and in my not so humble opinion, its bunk.
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Karnak, you understand I am not lobbying against a Ki-84, only stating my preference of a/c in the CT? In the MA, there'd be only one ride to have. ;)
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What goes 438mph, has two 30mm and two 20mm cannon and can carry two 50kg bombs ?
Ki-83
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Heya Karnak,
The only problem I have with the KI-84 is what performance stats do you use? Will it be the 427MPH 100 Octane fuel bird or the 390MPH 88octane bird?
From the TAIC manual the KI-84 has
sea level speed of 348MPH
21,000ft 422MPH
30,000FT 396MPH
Sea level climb 3720FPM
20,000Ft 3290FPM
time to 20,000FT. 5.8min.
This is with 1970HP with 92 octane fuel plus methonal
This is clearly a superior A/C in the M/A however what will we get?
Also in the CT arena arena it would not be included in a 1943 scenario.
As an aside I have always felt that Japanese A/C are given the short end of the stick as far as performance goes. In one account of an extended dogfight Ira Kepford recalls being chased by Zekes(1943) at Sea Level in a chase that last for 20Minutes starting at 355Knots and ending at 275Knots with the Zekes still on his tail. He survived by pulling a high G turn in which the closest pursuing attacker augered trying to follow. Kind of an oxymoron with the more maneuverable F4U and the fast pursuing Zekes huh. In any case there are many anecdotal anomolies on both sides which only goes to show how close things really were and not how they are always portrayed to be.
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F4UDOA,
The 392mph number is, I believe, the speed the Japanese tests produced using their fuel, 88 octane. Our N1K2 is modeled using inferior fuel, I see no reason to think that the Ki-84 will be any different.
Keep in mind that below 10,000ft the Japanese fuel isn't too much of a disadvantage, it just prevents them from getting good performance at high altitude. Aslo keep in mind that the Ki-84, like the N1K2, will accelerate in a dive very well, which means that a slight altitude advantage for the Ki-84 can effectively mean that it is just as fast as an F4U-1D for the purposes of the fight.