Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: hblair on April 09, 2002, 03:21:54 PM
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Wanting to spend 3-400 bucks. Prolly a 9mm. Anybody got any recommendations?
Thanks.
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always wanted one of these:
(http://hosting.themib.com/luger/profile.jpg)
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I have NO idea what handguns cost..
But, I can tell you that the Baretta 9mm is a great gun. I scored very well with it at a range recently, compared with a dismal performance with a Glock.
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Depends on what you are going to use it for.
Are you going to carry it concealed or leave it in your truck?
Are you going to use it for home defence primarily and do you have any children in your house?
I've been checking out the Kimber 45's for my truck. (I want something that willl go through glass and thin metal) and I have a Browining 380 for concealed carry. It's compact in size and not as accurate but it holds 13 rounds.
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I bought an S&W 686 when I started on the public safety department in 1982. I had a "Bull's Eye" trigger job when I got. It is the sweetest shooting handgun I ever shot. I like being able to fire off the .38 rounds for plinking at targets or some heavy load .357 mag rounds. If my life depended on placing one round in center mass, my 686 is my handgun of choice. I would still carry it however, the department made me change over to the Baretta 9mm. :( If you get a Baretta, get the 10mm.
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:D
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hblair is all depends on what you want it for.
My 3 choices would be the:
Beretta
Glock
S&W Sigma series.
Sigma fits my hand way better than a glock and just as accurate. Both are easy to use, no seperate safety and light enough to hold and accurately point when your blood is pumping.
Beratta's are nice but I find them too large (grip itself) for my hand and they have an external safety which is just one other thing you have to think about when you need it in a hurry.
Personally I don't like revolver's...not as accurate under fire unless you file down the action and only 5 or 6 shots which you most likely won't have to reload but still presents a problem for that 1 time you would have to.
If I bought another hand gun it would be an H&K though, but that's out of the price range you set :)
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I had a Ruger P89DC 9mm that was at the low end of that price range... $250- $300 or so, maybe? It was decent, though on the whole it felt a little sloppy, but I never had much trouble hitting things with it. In retrospect I should've spent a couple extra bucks on a Beretta - seems the 92F was around $400 or so... this was several years ago though, and I haven't priced anything since then. I'd like to check out one of those HK USPs as well - can you get them in the US? I've known people who like the Smith & Wesson and Sig automatics, but I suspect they are probably fairly pricey.
I'd definitely say to go for 9mm - save bucks on ammo vs. .45.
You just looking for something to shoot paper with?
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$300 to $400 bucks won't get you squat for a handgun if you are buying new.
These are a few that I would buy but were talking at least $500 here up to $750...
SIG 228/229 9mm/.40
Heckler & Koch USP 9mm/.40
Glock 9mm/.40 Compact
Glock 9mm/.40
Beretta 9mm/.40
Smith & Wesson 9mm
Kahr 9mm/.40
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As someone mentioned, what are you planning on doing with it?
Glocks are great guns because they are dirt simple and very reliable. Plus they come in several different frame sizes. However, they are automatics and to be good with one requires some practice.
The S&W 9's are also a good choice.
I wouldn't buy the Berreta unless you want to spend more money and have large hands. The grips have been known to feel uncomfortable to those with small hands. Especially females. (which is why the Glock is a good choice).
If you're looking for a home defense weapon that you don't think you'll shoot much, buy a revolver. Go get a Taurus or S&W in .357mag. You don't have to worry about arming it, just point and shoot as they say. Plus you can get different frame sizes easily so you can find one that fits your hands.
Now here is my biggest piece of advice :)
I don't know what your experience level is with weapons. (I've been around them all my life and have competed in combat pistol matches locally) If Alabama has a concealed weapons program I'd take the class. Most of them are very informative about the care and feeding of handguns. Especially about the laws and for those who haven't been around them much.
One of the main things about even thinking of using a gun in self-defense is being confident you can use it safely (for everyone your not using it against). That confidence can often be the difference in a sucessful use and one you read about (you rarely read about the sucessful ones.)
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Take a look at this site:
http://www.sigarms.com/
Very good stuff.
dago
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Hey Eagler, I got one of those.
Never had a firearm feel as good in the hand as the Luger.
Interesting recoil with the toggle slapping upward, fair amount of noise for a 9mm.
Decent accuracy, fun to shoot occasionally.
dago
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I'll do occasional target practice and carry it in my truck. My brother had a beretta 380 a few years ago. I fired it a few times, I liked the way it felt. My younger brother has a sigma (or somethin like that) He likes it. In Alabama, the waiting period for handguns was done away with AFAIK. You buy it, you walk out with it. Gotta go to the courthouse and fill out some forms to carry it concealed though. I don't have any plans or use for that.
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Kratz,
I have to qoute older prices, but the sigma series was on average was from $382 to $514 in price (.380 series thru the 9mm, 40 and 357 varities.) They were always about 100 dollars cheaper than glocks of comparable caliber. (just comparing auto's though).
H&K's were the high end,
Sig's and Glocks on the medium scale,
and S&W Sigma's on the low scale.
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I own a Beretta 92FS 9MM.It IS a large gun,but I have no problems handling despite not having large hands.
It has never ever jammed on me,not even while breaking it in.Not once.
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If you like Berattas but don't like the $$$, try a Taurus knockoff. I have a 92c (the compact version) that has shot fine since I bought it. I think I paid about $400 for it though, but I didn't shop around all that much at the time.
Charon
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I have a Barretta .40S&W that I'm quite happy with. I like the punch that a .40 packs a bit more than the 9mm. Of course... the .45 is the gun to go with if you're serious about reversing something's direction.
AKDejaVu
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I bought a Daewoo 9mm that was basically a Beretta 92S clone. Picked it up for around $350...but that was like 8 years ago. It felt and shot amazingly well for the price. I put probably about 500 rounds through it with no problems. Dunno if they're even made anymore, but might be worth looking into. I preferred it over the Beretta and carried it for a year or so.
(don't let people laugh at you when they find out it's made by Daewoo hehehe)
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(http://www.the-dirtiest.com/images/Siauto.jpg)
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Dude, just get a dagger.
A gun is a lame substitute for courage.
But if you MUST have one, Beretta or Glock are the ones to go with. For you I recomend .40 thats what you can handle, for the other Assassins, 9mm or less.
If its legal in your state, then try to get a 5-7.
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These are good, but I think they'll run you a little more than $400.
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Staga and Sob have posted two very good pictures, otherwise the only true choice would be a Deagle though ;)
Would guess it's pretty expensive though.
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My grandpa says he got his luger of a dead german officer. :D
Dont mess with my grandpa:D
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Real men use Chinese Fighting Stars for self defense. Guns are for rutabagas.
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WOW.. Lot of opinions here. Hell, that’s why they make different types of handguns.
It’s just a tool. Same as a knife, shovel, crow bar and the BFC. Now, how do you want to use the tool? Heck, I love punching holes in cardboard. Fun sport too. Think about the cost of filling the cardboard full of holes, that is a major factor in the cost.
What ever you decide, Dune has great advice, take a professional firearms class. We, our department, conduct approx. 24 hour of training each year with the Range Master. Plus, one on one classes. (not counting basic training)
If you keep it in a vehicle and your ever pulled over or have an concealed weapon on your person, be sure to tell the officer you have a weapon when he or she walks up to chat. That alone will save you some problems. Trust me! Finding an undeclared weapon pisses off the vast majority of LEO’s (law enforcement officers).
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I really like the Beretta 92F 9mm and also some S&W .40 that I had a chance to shoot some time ago. I did not like any of the Glocks as I find their squarish grip kind of annoying and it was less accurate to me than the Beretta. Beretta is my favorite as it shoots well, is accurate plus it looks so damn good especially the Inox (silver) ones. :) But it's over the 300-400 its more like 600-700 new.
Here' a 92FS Inox, beautiful!
(http://www.beretta.com/images/p_92FS_inox.jpg)
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Get a trigger lock. Keep the ammo separate if you don't need to keep it ready. Plan on your boys looking for it one day when you aren't around.
All I need for home and carrying is my model 60 S&W which is a 5-shot stainless steel .38 cal snub nose - just a belly gun.
I always take it fishing if I'm by myself. If I hook into a big dolphin or whatever, I can bring it alongside on the wire leader and cap it.
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Gunthr, you shoot Dolphins??? That's cruel dude. Now I'm REALLY in favor of gun control!!! Poor Flipper.
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HIGHLY recommend this guy here, I have one and absolutely love it.
Nim
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Oh, you are an ankle biter, Elfenwolfy :D
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Like Kratzer said the Rugers feel a little sloppy. I had a P91DC (I think it was?). The 40S&W decocker model. Paid 325 for it at a show. Wasn't a bad weapon, it was my carry piece for awhile. I liked the .40 cartridge more than the 9mm cartrige.
Then I found the mother of all handguns :D
Colt
1911-A1
.45ACP
Picked up a Mk IV 70series Goldcup for about 550 thinking it would be a nice one to have around. Sold the Ruger after the first trip to the range with the Goldcup. It became my carry piece, always in Condition 1 when I left the house.
Had a Glock23 (compact .40S&W) for a backup. It was a really sweet piece. Excellent point and shoot. It had a crappy aftermarket rear sight on it, which I promptly knocked by accident. But didna need it at ranges of 15yds and closer anyway. This one was literally point and click, for me anyway.
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For the money I prefer the S&W 9's, I’ve had the 6906 for about 10 years, ran maybe 6,000 rounds through it (mostly fairly hot handloads), it never failed to chamber the next round (you gotta love that)
The Beretta 92f is a great gun if your not going to carry it on you (it's a shrecking anchor).
But if you are thinking about the Barrette check out the Taurus rip-off of the Beretta. They are made from beretta's own tooling and quality is very good and the price is much lower.
Of course if you find a large stack of cash between now and then, go with a Sig
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Agree on the Smith picks, I have about 25000 rounds through a 1006 10mm, and it so far has been the most trouble free firearm I own.
I'm not super familiar with the US market, but for 400$ used, I see REALLY good Sig Sauer's go for this on Sig Forums all the time. I have a Sig 220 in 9mm, and it's one of the more accurate guns out of the box I've shot, especially for 9mm.
Sig isn't a bad way to go for 9mm, if you can find a mint used 226 or 225, I'd jump on that. A thing to look into as well is magazine/spare parts availability and pricing to Hblair. Budget about 20$ for cleaning kit/supplies as well.
I've owned a couple dozen 92F and Brigadier variants, honestly, I'd look elsewhere. VERY large pistol, and the relaibility is kind of ass, especially with the old ones. I local range I help out at has a coupld of the new model Brigs on the rental rack, and after about 10,000 rounds, they are mucho better than the old 92F's in terms of taking abuse.
If you can, try and shoot the pistol you buy before completing the transaction, you may like the feel of the grip, but totally hate the muzzel flip, or something else....the point being, shoot at least a couple magazines through any gun, not only as a function test, but a fit test.
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Then I found the mother of all handguns
Nothin quite like the .45 Colt ACP.
Scary piece. Whatever you hit just falls down.
And stays there.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Real men use Chinese Fighting Stars for self defense. Guns are for rutabagas.
Shuriken's are nuisance weapons, at best. I prefer a stand-off weapon myself. The Colt Accurized Rifle is awesome, but for handguns I've found the best thing is to try-before-you-buy. I can't use a Colt for toejam. With a Beretta I hit dead on, but my favorite weapon is the Ruger Blackhawk. With anything from .30 Carbine to .44 Mag I can hit accurately out to 100yds (and further the smaller the cartridge - weird).
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I really like the 92F, I like it's "equilibrium". For me it's important when shooting several time in a row. I found that it was "coming back naturally to it's original position".
You will notice that 9mm are easier to shoot with, it's great for women once they want to step up from the 22. You will probably be more accurate with a 9mm too.
Now, for defense only (I hope u will not have to), when you shoot with a 9mm the guy will probably keep moving toward you and do his business before he realises he's hit. If you are attacked by multiple opponents, that will not strike fear.
I would advise a 45, makes a big bang and your attacker will find himself on his butt as soon as the first bullets hits him. Very disuasive when you are attacked by several persons at the same time.
My humble 2 cts.
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Now that I think about it, handguns are like flying in AH. Fly what you want and shoot what you want. The main thing is to find what’s right for you.
If I get to the con this year and I’ll bring my S&W 686 and welcome any of you folks to test it out at the Bass Pro shooting range next door. If you don’t think it’s the sweetest trigger pull on a handgun, I’ll buy you a beer! :cool:
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Put the gun away before the beer, please! :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Put the gun away before the beer, please! :)
Good point GRUNHERZ. I'll put it away before folks buy me the beer. Heck, I live in the land of "Liquor, Gun and Ammo" signs. ;)
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the bigger the round the more expensive it gets, be aware.
the bigger the round the bigger the thud when the target hits the floor. :D
target practice or self defense or both? consider them all, price of ammo and the gun could make a difference.
new or used? unless you are an experienced gun owner/shopper, be aware of what you are buying if it's used. go for new if you can. however you might need to up your price for a quality piece.
another suggestion, rent before you buy. a lot of shooting has to do with how it feels and shoots with the owner. HIGHLY SUGGESTED.
consider revolvers too...a bit more trust worthy in most cases....and man, the feel of a .44 magnum is awesome. Smith 'n Wesson baby all the way. something with a 6" barrel :D
i'd say, up your price to 500-700, it's an investment, and will last you forever if you take care of it. you can always trade it or sell it if you really decide it's not for you.
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btw, glock 9mm model 19 and a S&W .44 magnum model 6 somthin' (has a 6" barrel and rounded butte).
yum.
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Sig-Sauer P-225 rulezz :)
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"Liquor, Gun and Ammo"
Golly-geeit if thats not an opening for my buddy Tahgut I don't know what is! :D
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Nothin quite like the .45 Colt ACP.
Scary piece. Whatever you hit just falls down.
And stays there.
So true Hangtime. =) Obviously everyone has their prefrence with pistols - I think I can show some light in the subject here. Im working at a rifle range right now - extra cash for college - and we have pistols and rifles available to rent. Many of the guns listed in this thread we have at the range - some are good - some are not.
First and formost Ill push my personal favorite - the Colt 1911A1 .45ACP. For concealed carry - a fullsize 1911 is a workout. The pistol weighs a good amount and the rounds arent exactly featherlight either. A compact Commander, Officer's Carry, or Defender offer both shorter barrels and lighter weight. The .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) round is - bar none - the best self defense round in existance. The velocity and the weight of the slug are enough to put anyone out of action for good. Think of it this way - a 9mm is very fast, but light - almost like driving a nail into something with a hammer. A .45 ACP... is the hammer - slow and heavy (if the sun is at the right angle, you can watch the bullet fly through the air - that slow). Knockdown power is what you want. It doesnt have good armor penetration, but I doubt anyone you might have to defend yourself from is wearing Class 3 body armor. :P Anyway - the 1911A1 is simply the finest pistol out there. It dominates in professional pistol shooting and is the prefered choice for concealed carry. Ive owned two Colt's in the past year or so and Ive never had ANY problems with them. A brand new rollmarked 1991A1 (slightly redesigned) will run you about $550 - higher end and custom models will run you more. I would stay away from any other 1911 producer other than Wilson Combat ($2000+ range here) for carry. Kimbers are better shooting guns out of the box, but are prone to reliabilty issues (FTF, FTFe, FTRTB, etc) and you actually want the gun to go off if you need it. Springfield Armory is declining in quality - too expensive in the $500-$600 range for what they offer and Para-Ord is a joke. The only disadvantages of the 1911 for carry are the fact that it is a single action pistol... must be carried locked and cocked in order to be employed - call me amature, but I was uncomfortable with this at first, and the heavy recoil. Granted its not a .50AE Desert Eagle, but the .45 will kick considerablly making followupo shots difficult unless the weapon is ported. The most wonderful thing about a 1911 is the trigger pull... great out of the box and even better after a trigger job - this is why the pistol dominates shooting competitions. It is important to note however the difference between Colt's 1911's - Series 70 and Series 80 pistols. Generally speaking - Series 70 pistols are more desirable and are better shooters, but less safe. The Series 80 pistols have MANY safety features added to them, as well as some external parts that make the gun easier to shoot - this at the expense of a PERFECT trigger pull.. instead you only have NEAR PERFECT - still 100% better than any double action pistol listed.
With regard to other "fancy" weapons - below Ill go through them breifly and list advantages and disadvantages.
Beretta 92FS/96 (9mm/.40) - The 92/96 series pistols are decent weapons. The U.S. Army adopted the 92F 9mm (des. M9) in 1984 and replaced the 1911 with it. For defense purposes, the 92 has 3 main disadvantages: 1. It is only a 9mm 2. It is a huge, ungainly beast 3. It is difficult for a novice to hit anything with it - very challenging trigger feel to it. The 9mm Luger round is wonderful for "plinking" at the range as it is accurate and cheap, but it will take you at least FIVE round to stop a human who is coming at you. Its size makes it difficult to conceal and its weight will wear on you. The .40 (96) works out some of the ballistics problems that make the 9mm unsuited for carry - but the weapon is still large and heavy. We have 3 Beretta's at the range - a blued 92FS, a Stainless 92 Brigadeer, and a 96 Inox. We have had very few failures and no major failures with the models after an average of 200,000 rounds through each gun. Very reliable and at around $600 they are good weapons.
Glock 19/22 (9mm/.40) - Glock is the shining star of small caliber weapons. In terms of reliability they cannot be beat. We have a Model 17 9mm with over 1,000,000 rounds through it - the barrel was replaced - the weapon functions perfectly. Again you have the small caliber issue however. In terms of shootability, they are functional - they are single action with two trigger positions (full and half pull rapid fire). HOWEVER - the Glock has NO EXTERNAL SAFETY. The only "safety" is in the trigger itself - you pull it, round fires. There are various internal safetys that will prevent a round from discharging if the weapon is dropped, etc. Good value at $550-$600.
SIG Sauer (P220 series) (9mm/.357SIG) - SIG Arms is a well known contractor and builds grade A pistols. The P220 series (226, 228, 229, etc) offers a great carry package, but again, at the expense of a small caliber. There are external and internal safetys, the pistol is double action, and with a decent trigger job they can shoot very well. The .357SIG round offers a TON of power for how small it is. The weapons are small, easily concealable, and fun to shoot - Great buys at around $600.
Revolvers - Great for carry as well - perhaps the safest pistol design. Smith and Wesson or Ruger make decent revolvers. The Ruger Red Hawk series of revolvers (.357/.44 mag) are great (but very heavy) pistols. The .44 magnum round is one hell of a bullet, but is still second to the .45 in energy transfer despite a higher velocity. .357's are nice because you can also shoot .38's through them. .38s are cheap and great for practice - when used for defence - the .357 is one of the best rounds out there - decent power and BLINDING speed. (Anywhere from $350 to $700)
Heckler and Koch USPs (9mm/.40/.45/.357SIG) Good pistols... but they have attitude problems just like the company. Dont count on good customer service - parts are expensive as hell and you gun WILL break. As long as you can afford to pay $800 for the name you get a decent pistol. I would advise against the HK's because I have had bad experiences with the company (They really dont care about the little guy - only the military contracts) and the weapons are NOT worth $800. That being said - they are still fine pistols - great for carry at least. If you have to have the name - go for it - if not, move on.
Ruger (P90 seriers) 9mm - Best bang for the buck - its the Corvette Z06 of the gun world - however in this case - the buck aint much and neither is the gun. Numerous failures, prone to jamming, and cheaply constructed. Now mind you - I am comparing this weapon to the best out there - by other standards not only is this an adaquate pistol - it is fantastic. Again, the 9mm is lacking in power - you'd give him 13 or 14 really bad bruises with it - but for a first handgun its hard to go wrong with it. For a price around $400 I think it might be what youre looking for. The weapons has both internal and external safeties, but as a result, the trigger pull is "strange" just like the Beretta.
Knockoffs - I have no experience with them - I was told to stay away. :P
Now as was previously mentioned - ammunition is not cheap - consider how often you are likely to shoot the pistol. Prices are approx. and for FMJ ammo only. Figure on JHP "Hollow Points" costing twice as much for half the bullets.
Ammunition: (1-10 scale)
Practice = Value and accuracy Defense = power employment
.22 (~$2 a box) Practice (10) Defense (1)
.25 auto (~$10 a box) Practice (2) Defense (2)
.32auto (~$12 a box) Practice (2) Defense (3)
.38 Special (~$8 a box) Practice (8) Defense (4)
9mm (~$8 a box) Practice (9) Defense (5)
.38 Super/9x23mm (~$16 a box) Practice (10) Defense (8)
.357 (~11 a box) Practice (7) Defence (7)
.357SIG (~$12 a box) Practice (7) Defence (7)
.40 (~$10 a box) Practice (8) Defense (6)
.44mag (~$15 a box) Practice (3) Defense (9)
.45ACP (~$13 a box) Practice (7) Defense (10)
.50AE (~$65 a box) Practice (1) Defense (10)
Man its late and Ive bored you enough - Im sure Ill think of some other stuff later - but I gotta get some sleep - feel free to Email me if you have any questions about CWL's or pistols in general. =)
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Oops - thought of something already...
1. If this is your first pistol - buy a used one. They are cheaper and "broken in." This way you can skip the dangerous part of owning a handgun - the first 1,000 rounds are very important to its total life - and if it isnt for you - you can sell it as a small loss as opposed to big one.
2. If you purchase you pistol from a gun shop.. dont listen to a word they tell you if they are under the age of 60. Old range masters, Korean/Vietnam vets will try and sell you 1911's and will generally be honest with you. The rest will sell you whatever they can.
3. This is a BIG purchase - inspect the firearm - $500-700 is nothing to sniff at - take your time in choosing and find out if you like the pistol.
4. Rent first - see if the gun that "looks cool" shoots well for you.
5. When in the gun shop - ASK to dry fire the weapon. 1911's cannot be hurt by dry firing - other can so the seller may be aprehensive. If he will not allow you to dry fire, walk away. Dont be preasured into buying a gun you arent familar with.
6. Check for scratches, wear marks, holster marks, aftermarket parts, etc. If its a race gun, you want to know. 80% of the time this is good - the rest are disasters. I bought a 1911 Combat Commander "race gun" for $615 - the parts and work on the gun totaled out to well over $1000.
7. Any semi-auto pistol is only as good as its magazine. Buy the best you can - if it doesnt feed it doesnt fire.
8. Count on aftermarket work. Trigger job, barrel thoating, feed ramp polishing, etc. Plan on spending $100 on work after your purchase. Again, with a used gun, this all has probably already been done.
9. RESEARCH! You are responsible for knowing what you are buying!
10. Take an NRA pistol safety course. There is no excuse for causing an accident with your new investment. BE SAFE AT ALL TIMES!
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Hblair,
You have loads of great advice here, but only you can
decide what firearm feels right when you pick it up.
Pick a day when you have loads of time, and stop by
a local firearms dealer. For example:
Sportsman Exchange INC
611 Walnut Street
Gadsden, Al
256-546-9609
Tell them what you want. Pick up a variety of guns
and get the feel. Get the price range. You don't
have to buy something on your first visit, but do
get the address for your nearest gun range/gun safety
course.
Hope this helps.
Events.
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If you want pictures of the guns everyone is talking about, check out this website:
gunsamerica.com (http://www.gunsamerica.com)
It'll give you some idea of prices also.
Generally you can find good buys on handguns if you are patient. They are one of the first things people buy when they have extra cash and one of the first things they sell when in a bind.
One more piece of advice for what it's worth. If you are going to use a firearm for home defence, take time in selecting the caliber and ammo for your firearm. For example, if you fire a .357 full metal jacket round in your house it could travel through several rooms before it stops. It's good to know what's behind your target.
Practice with the ammo you are going use in the weapon. A lot of people practice with cheap ammo and then load it with more expensive ammo for defence purposes. Various ammo's have different flight and feeding characteristics. I had a gun that fed full metal jackets fine, but it would not feed properly with hollow points.
Happy Hunting
GF
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
So true Hangtime. =) Obviously everyone has their prefrence with pistols - I think I can show some light in the subject here. Im working at a rifle range right now - extra cash for college - and we have pistols and rifles available to rent. Many of the guns listed in this thread we have at the range - some are good - some are not.
First and formost Ill push my personal favorite - the Colt 1911A1 .45ACP. For concealed carry - a fullsize 1911 is a workout. The pistol weighs a good amount and the rounds arent exactly featherlight either. A compact Commander, Officer's Carry, or Defender offer both shorter barrels and lighter weight. The .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) round is - bar none - the best self defense round in existance. The velocity and the weight of the slug are enough to put anyone out of action for good. Think of it this way - a 9mm is very fast, but light - almost like driving a nail into something with a hammer. A .45 ACP... is the hammer - slow and heavy (if the sun is at the right angle, you can watch the bullet fly through the air - that slow). Knockdown power is what you want. It doesnt have good armor penetration, but I doubt anyone you might have to defend yourself from is wearing Class 3 body armor. :P Anyway - the 1911A1 is simply the finest pistol out there. It dominates in professional pistol shooting and is the prefered choice for concealed carry. Ive owned two Colt's in the past year or so and Ive never had ANY problems with them. A brand new rollmarked 1991A1 (slightly redesigned) will run you about $550 - higher end and custom models will run you more. I would stay away from any other 1911 producer other than Wilson Combat ($2000+ range here) for carry. Kimbers are better shooting guns out of the box, but are prone to reliabilty issues (FTF, FTFe, FTRTB, etc) and you actually want the gun to go off if you need it. Springfield Armory is declining in quality - too expensive in the $500-$600 range for what they offer and Para-Ord is a joke. The only disadvantages of the 1911 for carry are the fact that it is a single action pistol... must be carried locked and cocked in order to be employed - call me amature, but I was uncomfortable with this at first, and the heavy recoil. Granted its not a .50AE Desert Eagle, but the .45 will kick considerablly making followupo shots difficult unless the weapon is ported. The most wonderful thing about a 1911 is the trigger pull... great out of the box and even better after a trigger job - this is why the pistol dominates shooting competitions. It is important to note however the difference between Colt's 1911's - Series 70 and Series 80 pistols. Generally speaking - Series 70 pistols are more desirable and are better shooters, but less safe. The Series 80 pistols have MANY safety features added to them, as well as some external parts that make the gun easier to shoot - this at the expense of a PERFECT trigger pull.. instead you only have NEAR PERFECT - still 100% better than any double action pistol listed.
Verra nice summation on the 1911-A1/91-A1 Saur. I always through the recoil on my Goldcup was just right, and never had a problem with successive shots. And no, it wasn't ported :D
The biggest difference between the 70series and the 80series is the firing pin block safety. A really nice addition to the 1911 from a safety standpoint. Won't let the firing pin engage unless the trigger is depressed (similar to Glocks). This is where most of the trigger complaints on the 80series come from. But still a better trigger than just about any other handgun, save maybe the single action revolvers and a select few double action revolvers fired single action :D.
The Colt Delta Elite is also a VERY nice weapon, if you can find one. 1911-A1 80series frame chambered in 10mm. I was surprised by how well behaved this weapon was.
As several folks have pointed out, try it before you buy it. If the shop you go to doesn't want to let you dry fire the weapon ask them if they have SnapCaps. They are basically a plastic cartridge with a spring loaded plate inplace of a primer and give the firing pin the resistance it needs to hit.
Caliber makes a difference. As has been pointed out 9mm is worthless. Too high velocity and too low impact.
The .45ACP is the exact opposite, real low velocity (as Saur said you can see the round in flight in the right light) and HIGH impact.
Think about the guns on the 109G10. The MGs are the 9mm and that 30mm tater gun is the .45ACP. Sure, you can kill with the MGs after spending alot of ammo. That tater gun is one shot BOOM!
Then there's the .40S&W cartridge. It's supposed to be a "best of both worlds" round, good velocity and good impact. It's not a bad caliber. I think I've still got a box of Winchester Black Talons in .40S&W from when I had my Glock23 :D I think I'd rather have a 10mm over a .40 though (.40 is just a shortened 10mm anyway).
the .357sig in an interesting cartridge (since someone mentioned it). It's a .40 case necked down to 9mm. I've never really liked this one.
For defense the ammo you chose can make a difference also. Remington Golden Sabers were my preferred carry load. "Flying Trash Cans" was a nickname stuck on them by an editor for one of the gun mags. If there was enough light you could see the HUGE cavity of the round waiting to fly out of the barrel (I looked using a mirror). Just looking down the barrel of my 1911 with the mirror was enough to send chills down the spine. I really would not like to be looking directly into he business end of one.
If you're thinking about revolvers you can't go wrong with a .357mag. Been several years since I actually kept up with all the testing etc, but the Federal 125gr jacketed hollow point was still the king of one shot stops. Followed closely by the .45ACP. I've got a real sweet Colt Trooper .357mag with 6" barrel. The single action trigger on it is sweeter than any raced 1911-A1 I've ever seen :D
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One thing to remember about carrying a handgun HB, is don't ever leave the gun in your truck unattended. When I carry, which is rare nowadays, I always stick the gun in my pocket when I'm out of the vehicle...or hide it in the trunk of my car where it can't be easily found by a thief, e.g. I have a 44. Bulldog Pug which fits easily in my pocket and is fairly concealable. I used to go jogging with it and carried it in a belly band holster...but thinking about that now, it was probably unwise to do so.
A good, all purpose semi auto is the Colt .45, if you're just going to take it on hunting trips and such. It's a fun one to shoot. Colt is out of business now, but Auto Ordnance (Thompson) makes an acceptable product. Otherwise, look at a small 9mm pistol you can stick in your pocket when you go to the store, etc. Walther P38 K (Kurtz) would be great for this, but it's about $1000.00 or so, if they still make 'em.
Les
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Liquor, Gun and Ammo"
Golly-geeit if thats not an opening for my buddy Tahgut I don't know what is! :D
Sorry, I was out shooting spotted owls and drinking Long Necks. I guess I missed something? :cool:
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MT, scroll back. We were talking about handguns, then Gunthr started bragging about shooting Dolphins, and while I agree dolphin-free tuna tastes bland in comparison to the 10% dolphin allowed tuna I don't believe Gunthr has the right to just gun down all those Flippers in cold blood like that.
Oh- and SOME of them are even planning on bringing their handguns to the Convention! If that isn't a thought that'll send chills down your spine I don't know what is. Buncha guys gettin drunk, one calls another one a stinkin vulcture, he gets offended, they both pull guns and decide to "duel"...
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Agreed, but not quite as chilling as the thought of paying $125 to RENT a monitor!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:
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Heh...I can rent you a 17"monitor for $50 instead. :)
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
.357's are nice because you can also shoot .38's through them. .38s are cheap and great for practice - when used for defence - the .357 is one of the best rounds out there - decent power and BLINDING speed. (Anywhere from $350 to $700)
Years ago I bought a Dan Wesson .357mag with interchangable barrels.
I got mine with the 6" barrel.
I liked the fact that with the interchangeable barrels I could quickly swap out to 8" or 4" or snubnose it down to 2 1/2", I don't recall now what all the different sizes available were, but I think they went all the way up to 12".
Being it was a .357mag capable of shooting .38s, plus having all the different barrel sizes made the Dan Wesson fell like five or six handguns rolled into one.
I always bought .38 reloads for target practice and plinking, then at the end of the day clean her up, fill her with .357s and put her away for home defense.
When I bought it in the early 80's down in Jacksonville Fl. you just walked in, picked her out, slapped down the cash, and walked out.
My wife went with me when I went to the dealer, and as I was waiting for the dealer to finish putting the 6" barrel on, my wife saw this little .25 automatic with pearl handle grips in the display case, she said "Why don't ya get that one, it's cheaper and it's cute"
I told her I didn't want "cute" and that if you were to have to shoot someone with the .25 all ya'd do is piss em off, they'd keep right on comin', take the thing away from ya and club ya with it as that would do more damage that shooting ya with it.
I said I wanted the .357mag cuz' when ya have to shoot someone you only want 'em going two directions, back and down.
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Hblair,
Well you certainly have lots of responses and although I didn’t read all of them they seem to have some good information and advice. Here’s mine though.
Your price range is going to be a problem for the premium weapons the other gents have mentioned. I have a Beretta 9mm that is an excellent firearm once I took the fixed sight out and had an adjustable one put in. I would suggest that any semi-automatic you get to drop the extra money to have the sight replaced, it will be worth it in the end for accuracy sake. 9mm rounds are also not that high and you can buy reload rounds to go plinking. The price range for these weapons is going to get you though.
For the money you want to spend, I would go straight to a S&W .357 of some kind. S&W makes a good quality firearm that can be picked up for a reasonable amount. Most of the deals I have found were used and resold in the counter. You shouldn’t have any problem picking up a S&W .357 for 350 and under.
Using 38 rounds to target shoot with make an added plus. Reloaded 38 rounds are very cheap. Hell for a small fee I could even load some for ya ;).
If your desires are is to go with the semi because of an aversion to revolvers then for the price, I would look at Kimber firearms. They are relatively inexpensive compared to the others semi-auto’s. You may also want the trigger and slide reworked on any semi-auto, unless it’s one of the premiums, to have the barbs taken off. It’s not that expensive to have done and well worth it. It may not need it but if you start to get double feeds and gams it is most likely because of this.
Trying to get inside the price range you have and end up with a quality firearm, I would stick to the six shooters. They’re more accurate anyway. And for you semi-auto enthusiast, yeah a 1911 can have a great target setup and will also cost you 4 figures for a good one. The only time I’ve been beaten at a match by a semi was when the guy dropped another 6-800 dollars on the Glock he had already sank a lot of money into just to purchase.
Lead hollow point, copper jacketed, 4 notched edges in the copper .357 round will put a frown on anyone’s face permanently and if you miss and hit a limb, well, they didn’t need that one anyway.
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Somebody here said that Ruger is the Corvette Z0-6 of handguns. If thats true then Sig is the Mercedes Benz. I originally didnt like Sigs much since there layout is different for the mag release, slide release, safety etc. from what I am used to. However, I am a new Sig convert. I dont own one yet, but I am looking for a .45 Sig that I can afford. Only drawback is they cost a bunch. I currently own 3 handguns, but the only one that is really much of a self defense weapon is my Taurus 9mm. It is a good gun, accurate, reliable etc, but the 9mm is a wussy cartridge for sure. One good thing about 9mm is the ammo is cheap though. Lots of people cant hit with the .45 and cant afford to practice to where they can hit. Better a bad guy with 5 9mms in him then one that you miss with your .45. The .45 is the superior self defense weapon though if you can handle it. Its interesting to note that the military is slowly shifiting to .45 handguns in certain fields such as special forces and aviation. Many aviators are now issued .45 Sigs instead of the 9mm Beretta. I am also looking for a good used Colt .45 M1911, also a .357 revolver for hunting trips out West.
By the way, Im pretty sure from the context of the post that the guy that said he shoots dolphin was talking about the dolphin that is a fish, not the ones of the porpoise variety. There is a fish called dolphin, which is a popular sportfish. It causes no end of confusion to people that dont know this.
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Dolphins are FISH???? Oh Mahi!!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Dolphins are FISH???? Oh Mahi!!
Shouldn't that be "koi mahi"? da dum!
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Oh- and SOME of them are even planning on bringing their handguns to the Convention! If that isn't a thought that'll send chills down your spine I don't know what is. Buncha guys gettin drunk, one calls another one a stinkin vulcture, he gets offended, they both pull guns and decide to "duel"...
When I went down for the 1998 WB con, I brought my Kimber .45 along. There had been tentative plans to go and do some shooting. I was a little disappointed when I went over to the main office with HT and the main tech guy (can't remember his handle at the moment) and there was a little "No Guns Allowed" sign on the front door of their complex. :) Looked like one of those little "No Smoking" symbols with the red crossed circle over a cigarette, except it was a little handgun inside the circle. Cute.
I got pulled over for speeding on the way home, while still in TX. When I went into the trunk to get my documentation the officer saw boxes of stacked ammo and asked if I had a handgun in the car. I told him, "Yes, I did. I'd heard that if I entered Texas without one, I'd be assigned one at the border. So I figured I'd just bring my own." He wasn't overly amused and told me to put it in the trunk. Here in IL, the gun & ammo are supposed to be in seperate parts of the vehicle so I was a bit surprised at that. And I was wondering how I'd shoot the desperados who were certain to accost me out in the Texas badlands now. Luckily I made it out of the state without being held up by a posse.
hblair, alot of the info posted here has been pretty good. The best advice you've gotten though, is to make your own decision. Find a gun that you like the feel of. If you don't like handeling it, you're not likley to practice with it. If you don't practice with it, you're not going to be able to use it competently when you need it. If you can't use it competently, you're gonna be as much danger to yourself or your family as you may be to any intruder.
It would also help us to know what you really plan on doing with the gun. Is it going to be a home defense item? Will it be mostly just a target shooting thing? Are you going to carry it? How big are you? Will the lady of the house be shooting it?
Several of the gun shops in my area let you rent a gun for use on their range. This is a great way to get a feel for many of the different choices available. I'd suggest searching out a couple shops and seeing what they've got for you to handle.
D
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I wrote that the Ruger P90 series was the Z06 of handguns. =) The logic behind it is - "best bang for the buck." Cheap and effective, but not the best. (Enter, Merc-Benz, Sig - Porsche, HK, etc etc).
Funny post about the Texas cop. :P Had I pulled that here in Pa I would have been dragged out of my car at gunpoint. In Pa it is a little known fact that an illegal handgun will get you 10 years... end of story - you bargin from there. By illegal, I mean gun not stowed properly, ammunition seperated, etc. Those of us right wing fanatical, skin head, KKK, desperado, vigilante, militia members (read, liberal humor) that have carry permits dont have to worry about such trivial things, however. :P
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About 8 years ago I had Ruger Blackhawk 357mag / 9mm. (Yes it was capable to shoot both 357mag and 9mm. There was 2 cylinders you can change) If there still is those guns available I recommend it.
It was something like this:
(http://www.foxridgeoutfitters.com/hunting/blkhawk.jpg)
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I refuse to get drawn into that old debate of rather dolphins are mammals or fish. Personally I think an animal with legs is a mammal and an animal with fins is a fish. Regardless Gunthr has no right busting a cap in the head of Flipper, and I forwarded Gunthr's post to PETA, so I am sure he will hear plenty about his inhumane "fishing" tatics.
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C'mon down to Florida El-fin-wolfy, I'll show you how to troll for Manatee with cabbages. If we catch a pregnant female you can nurse on her :D
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Originally posted by Gunthr
C'mon down to Florida El-fin-wolfy, I'll show you how to troll for Manatee with cabbages. If we catch a pregnant female you can nurse on her :D
Mmmm... Nothing better than Manatee milk! Heck, just go for it Elfenwolf. ;)
BTW: If I can't be a good example, then I'll try to point out horrible reminder. :p
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Manatee milk? No thank you. You would probably serve it with Dolphin Steaks.
Do you know what all you gun carriers traveling to the Conn should do to make a political statement? You should melt down your firearms and make a statue of Hilary Rodham Clinton and place it in the Alamo. Frankly I'm scared to go to the Conn now for fear of getting shot. And in fact knowing there are so many armed people reading the BBS I'm afraid to say anything provocative anymore.
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Elfenwolf you should then certainly pass this on to PETA as well!
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47091&highlight=kitten (http://)
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
And in fact knowing there are so many armed people reading the BBS I'm afraid to say anything provocative anymore.
Damn, that's it! We win! :p
BTW: If I can't be a good example, then I'll try to point out horrible reminder.
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you knucklehead, this is a dolphin, and its mighty fine eating--
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Ahem! Dolphin's are not all mammals. Bottle-nosed Dolphin's (like Flipper) are mammals. The Dolphin's mentioned above 'Coryphaenidae hippurus looks like a very ugly Tarpon. You can find them around the world, but they swarm the Indian River area of Florida.
Here in Arkansas we shoot water-moccasins and turtles, rather then waste good paper or aluminum. A shortage of Dolphins will do that to you. :)
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Doh! Beaten to the punch again! :(
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Dawgone, they be so homely thet a bullet in th' haid'd make th' purdy agin.
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Been carrying a Sig Sauer P226 .357 for some time now. It is highly accurate and has a high muzzle velocity, it will shoot thru a car door at 30 yds. If you are going to get a good handgun its going to cost you over $600.
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Before you buy a handgun, go to your local firing range that has rentals and try them out first. Pick a gun that will serve your needs. Listed in no particular order:
1) If you ever think you'll need it for home defense, when it's dark, get one with tritium night sights.
2) Pick a caliber that you can handle without discomfort as you'll only be hitting much lower than your aim as you'll probably be flinching (pushing forward and downward in anticipation of the recoil).
3) If you'll be carrying it, you'll probably want a lighter-weight handgun.
4) Your choice MUST be reliable. Your last words on earth after your gun goes 'click' instead of 'BOOM' don't want to be "Oh toejam!"
5) Accuracy is also important as you need to hit what you're aiming at.
6) Practice...practice....practi ce! You won't do anyone (particularly yourself) any good if you cannot load, cock, and fire your weapon as you intend to in a stressful situation.
7) YOU MUST ALWAYS PRACTICE SAFE GUN HANDLING! If you cannot, do everyone a favor, don't get a gun.
8) Also store your gun properly. It's not going to do you any good if it is stolen by a drug-using thief that broke into your house while you weren't there. Also you don't want kids finding it and shooting another because they had access to it.
9) Also if a home self defense gun, how many neighbors live around you? Every stray bullet is a law suit ready to happen. You need to consider that you might have to kiss your house, car, and future earnings bye-bye to your neighbors sueing you in event of bullets going into and/or through their dwellings. Especially if you happen to accidently hit innocent bystanders.
Check out and research all the guns listed by others in this thread. Most are good choices. I have a SigSauer P220 45acp with Tritium nightsights. Extremely accurate and reliable, plus fairly light-weight (26 oz empty). I love it. Again it is MY choice which might be different than YOUR choice. Good luck in your search.
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I need some advice on a self-defense weapon too...
What should I carry if I'm going to be cramped into a Convention Hall with a bunch of whacked out right wing extremists carrying guns and drinking Pina Coladas, and it's August in Dallas, and the air conditioner goes out, and the convention goers become enraged when they find out it costs 130.00 to rent a monitor, and then one of them recognizes me as a Communist who is wearing a Hilary Rodham Clinton for President button?
I was thinking a handgun would be woefuly inadequate, but I would look conspicious wearing a raincoat in August to conceal a shotgun. Maybe hand grenades would work, but being the socially concious Liberal that I am I will only use stun grenades.
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Given those conditions, a cheesy fart should dissipate the crowd pretty well...
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Thanks for the advice men. I talked to my younger brother as I knew he owned a couple handguns, we got into a conversation, that's when I found out about his arsenal of guns. He owns over 20, including 3 handguns and an automatic M16 (rofl!) He recomended the sig sauer .40 We went down to the local gun store (sportsmans exchange matter of fact) and checked out what they had. After holding about 8 different guns I decided on the (drumroll please) Sig 229 .40 caliber. It was used but in real good shape, came with 5 clips (2 12 round jobs) case and all. I bought 100 rounds of ammo on top of the 25 they threw in with the gun for about $550 tax and all (gun listed for $489)
Sound like a fair deal?
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Sounds like a great deal.
Hblair,
http://www.sigforum.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/sigforum/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro
Any questions you have regarding Sigs, be it pricing, quality, whatever, can be answered there.
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Wow HBlair - sounds like a WONDERFUL deal!! A SIG .40 with 5 clips - 2 of which are pre-ban hi-caps and 100 rounds of ammo for only $550!!! You did VERY well. :) Good choice too - enjoy your purchase - have fun but above all, be safe. :)
(Carry)
Colt MKIV Series 80 XSE Combat Commander 1911 .45 ACP
(Impress freinds) 8)
Kalashnikov AK-47
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Sig is a very good choice, with the .40 frame you should be able to get a .357 barrel to fit it. It is a much better round than the .40. It is not your standard .357, it is a .40 cal casing crimped down to .357 so it provides the power of a .357 magnum in a small casing.
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Were I to buy a gun in these days of a potential impending major conflict. I'd spend $800 and get an AR-15.
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Originally posted by hblair
Wanting to spend 3-400 bucks. Prolly a 9mm. Anybody got any recommendations?
Thanks.
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The Sig .40 is an excellent choice.. not a bad price either.
And Ratbo.. if you're paying $800 for an AR-15.. you're getting rip'd. Got mine for $519.
AKDejaVu
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Excellent choice Hb. The department is thinking about changing over to the Sig. 40.
I still love my S&W 686. :)
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Ive never seen a "really good" AR-15 (Colt, for example) for less that $1200 - where the hell did you find them so cheap? That said - if your going to make the investment - might as well get a Class 3 and buy a full auto M16A1 for around $4000. :P
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Nah.. you have to pay $400 a year to keep a full auto registered in Oregon.. not worth it.
And... who buys colt AR-15s? PTEWY!
Get an Olympic Arms. You can get the lower receiver for about $110... the rest for about $400 (if you look hard enough) and build it yourself. Not much to them.. that's their beauty.
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/ar-15.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Great choice, good price concidering the extra magazines esp the 2 pre-ban ones. Please let us know how you feel about it after shooting it. Also consider getting it fitted with tritium night sights (all defensive sidearms should have them IMHO).
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My initial impression after firing the Sig .40 :
Getting shot by this gun would be a bad thing. :eek:
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desert eagle.. everything else pails in comparison
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Originally posted by kraquen
desert eagle.. everything else pails in comparison
you will be tired after carrying that Full size DE for any length of time:) A baby eagle on the other hand...
Good choice HBlair. I want a Colt commander for my next handgun.
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Too bad you aren't up here in Canada Ammo, I've got a mint Commander I just put up for sale, as well as an Officers. :(
My m4:
http://members.shaw.ca/gcornish/pictures2/gun4.jpg
Owns that crappy non milspec Olympic gun :p.
Hblair: Glad you liked your new .40 cal, serioulsy, check out SigForums, lots of hints and tips for your new pistola.