Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sabre on April 09, 2002, 03:32:30 PM
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First let me repeat what I've said before. HiTech is not displeased with the progress the CT has made since Pyro organized its revitalization. The numbers are what he expected to see at this point, and he is reasonably happy with how things are going. The support, patience and dedication of those who frequent the CT is primarily responsible for this success. Thank you. This doesn't mean there's no room for improvement of course:). Now in answer to the nay-sayers who would have the uninformed believe that the CT is tottering on the edge of virtual extinction...
The following is only my opinion, though based on long thought and study. I’ve listened to and pondered the various arguments and ideas suggested as to why more people don’t fly in the CT. “Too limited in A/C choice.” “Too hard to find a fight with reduced radar.” “Reduced icon range sucks.” I’ve also listened to those (many of which have little or no time in the CT) who say “If you want more people in the CT, make it just like the MA, only with Axis-vs-Allies. All these arguments are based on faulty and circular logic. Specifically, since the MA has hundreds in it at peak times while the CT only has dozens, making the CT just like the MA will make hundreds fly there. That’s bull. The reason hundreds fly in the MA now is because it is “The Main Arena.” It was first, and the answer is as simple as that.
Let’s look at the various arguments noted above. For instance, the argument that limited choice of A/C keeps people away. Well, we’ve run an all aircraft Axis-vs-Allied set up in the CT before (Perdonia). Numbers were up the first time we ran it, but returned to more typical numbers the second time it was offered. The difference in radar coverage between the CT and the MA during Perdonia was largely transparent, too. The only real difference was the short icons. On those few occasions where the MA went down – resulting in tons of people switching to the CT to continue playing – I don’t recall noting more than a few isolated complaints about the short icons. Contrast this with the most restrictive plane-set we’ve ever used, the Battle of Britain. This CT set up did just as well as Perdonia’s first run (perhaps even a bit better), and with short icons and much more restrictive radar coverage to boot. Plus, it did so with an old and less-than-ideal terrain!
Admittedly, people may be a bit spoiled by the plethora of choice available in the MA, but remember that we were all having a great time when we only had a half dozen A/C available during Beta. Indeed, WWIIOL has less than 10 A/C available, so by the reasoning of some, nobody would choose to fly there when they can fly in AH or WB. Yet they do, and in great numbers. So I don’t buy the “limited plane-set” argument. The evidence is against it. The right limited plane-set can and has worked just fine.
The only real answer to why more people fly in the MA that resonates true is, “I’d fly there, but there’s never enough people in there when I log on.” Yet we have had a significant number of people who have taken the plunge and tried the CT. Finding it to their liking, they have become regulars; nay, they have become zealots in their dedication to it. Search the call signs of the regular CT crowd and you will find many that never flew in the CT (or even wanted a CT) before Pyro took the steps to revive it.
What brought them in that first time? What made Perdonia initially popular? What brought them into the CT in droves (relatively, that is;)) during the BoB, or during the first half of the week of Sicily? I see two reasons. First, we offered something different. Either a new terrain was offered, a new and unique (from the MA) plane-set, or simply a quasi-historical feel of immersion lacking in the MA. It is like a scenario that doesn’t require registration, and doesn’t require players to plan their schedule around it. Some people love military history, and play AH for that primary reason. They look for an experience that gives them that “I was there” feeling. The other reason is that the MA environment itself drove them away. Too many people, endless and mindless furballs, and a perception that civility had been lost. It simply got boring for them, to the point that they were able to overcome the lemming-like instinct to click on “MA” simply because they always have before, and because that’s where all the other people were. In short, they longed for something different.
In my opinion, the high attendance in the MA is the best thing to happen to the CT. Simply making the CT a copy of the MA would not make it more popular. It would, in my opinion eliminate, the primary reasons its core players choose to spend some or all of their AH time there. In short, the CT is not a replacement for the MA, but an alternative. As more aircraft are introduced and new terrains become available, I believe the success we had with the BoB set up will repeat itself more often.
Again, the above is only my opinion, based on personal observation, and no doubt colored by my dedication to the CT. However, as long as I see twenty or more people on during peak times, I’m going to consider the CT a success and plan my future CT set ups accordingly. At the same time, I will not discourage other CT Staff members from running full plane-set Axis-vs-Allies set ups. Only time will tell which will be more successful in the long run. The great thing is, neither has to be wrong. Thanks for reading this.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Well said! I have been playing in the CT lately, and it has been a lot of fun. I dont mind if there are only 5-10 people on, it's still fun. Keep up the good work CT crew!
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Nice post Sabre. :)
Wish I was as good at expressing myelf in type as you are.
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Well said! to change the CT to be more like the MA negates the whole reason for having the CT.
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But Sabre, be careful.
No one suggested making the CT a small MA- what was suggested was a methodical application of different settings. This would allow you to see more clearly what settings work and which ones don't. That isn't unreasonable.
As to the numbers- why do people fly the MA? We can certainly argue that point, but I offer "it's because it's what they're used to". If that is arguable (and it is), the question becomes "how do you transition people to a new paradigm without shocking them?" This is necessary, because the choice exists to revert back to the known, and comfortable, status quo. People won't always eloquently express their feelings over what they felt went wrong, so you don't always get an accurate picture of what caused them to flee. Point is, people tend to stay with what is known, because known is comfortable.
You know as well as I do there is a delicate balance between challenging and frustrating. The game has to be challenging enough to be interesting, yet not so much so that it is frustrating. What was the research posted some time back (I can't remember who posted it) that stated there needs to be a 50-50 chance of success or failure for people to stay interested? Gotta tell you, that rings true to me as a teacher. While it is true there are some who don't mind biting the bullet and taking all their changes at once, I can fairly state there are many more that wouldn't.
I think you guys do a great job. You have a different approach, nothing wrong with that. I don't think an Axis vs. Ally arena can be dismissed out of hand, or on the little evidence gathered so far. Nor do I think there is anything wrong necessarily with limited plane sets- heck, I'd much prefer to fight early war than late war. But I have to think outside myself and ask what it is I believe draws people back to the MA. More selection seems to be the big ticket.
This isn't easy for you, I know, and I don't have a panacea answer to make everyone happy. I guess I don't see anything inherently wrong with a methodical approach.
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as I mentioned, I never lose a wink of sleep over the MA, the CT, the TOD, or the scenarios.
My response was in a thread started by a guy who apparently DOES lose sleep over the numbers in the CT and wants to FORCE people to like what he likes. ;)
If it's all going well in the CT, GREAT! My congratulations. Excuse my even making a suggestion.
(but could ya get the ones who want to FORCE people in there to "stifle it"?) :)
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Very well put in return, Kieran. I appreciate your views very much and will keep them in mind.
Sabre
P.S. I agree with you Toad...forcing the MA to look like the CT makes as little sense to me as making the CT look just like the MA:). I suspect the fellow you mentioned had good intentions, but I would never recommend such a course as he suggested. The CT will stand or fall on its own merits.
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Hi Sabre,
The only reason I don't fly in the CT is the lack of numbers, which seems to equate to more time between fights. I don't have a lot of time online, and the MA allows me to 'get activated' much more rapidly.
I like the CT settings and I can see the great work you guys have done, but it's simply the numbers game.
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I like the CT too, and try out each new setup as it comes. But some of the terrains are just too hard on my fps and I log out in frustration. It's no fun watching a slide show as people are taking parts off your plane.
I don't have that problem in the MA, even when it's full.
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Personally I love the CT.Doesn't mean I won't fly the main as I can have fun there also at times.
The CT only needs 20+ to be a lot of fun.Give the new players that came in when AW closed up,a little more time in the game and I think you will see the numbers go up in the CT.
This game has grown to the point where there are ample numbers to populate both.When I see 500 players in the main,I think man just get 20% to just try the CT.Then get 20% of that group to play in the CT on occasion and you have 2 arenas that are viable and a lot of fun in their own way.
To me the main is about capture the flag and to some score matters more than anything.This is fine and if that is what you are after then the main is the place I guess.But to me I fly for the "buzz".Score or capturing bases holds little interest for me and what I am looking for is that awesome fight against fairly even planes and sides,win or lose.In others words the "buzz" is the fight,win or lose.And in the main this can be hard to find at times.
So it is nice to have choices.
Frodo
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I have popped into the CT to give it a try several times and left shortly thereafter. Why? No sense of purpose. (In the MA, there is a goal to work for.) I 've asked what's what in there and gotten no response. (I don't think it's because of unfriendliness, just no answer possible as all there is to do is go find an engagement.) If all it's there for is to get Historical matchups, then fine, that's what you have. I don't mind that aspect but I personally want more. So I fly in the MA and live without the historical matchups. How do you get more people in the CT? I guess that depends on what you want it to be. Wish I had something concrete for y'all, but there's too many variables.
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Well written and thought-out Sabre. I agree.
I remember the first time I flew in the CT.
Jarbo was trying to get our squad (The Buccaneers) to hop over to the CT for a few sorties after we had completed our planned missions in the MA. I didn't know that my squadmate, Sabre, was a CM there, and I responded to Jarbo's request, "I don't want to go to the CT, it sucks."
Sabre responded, "Why does it suck, eskimo?"
"Because it's nearly empty all the time." I responded.
Many of the other Buccaneers were also reluctant, but we gave it a try.
We had an absolute blast that night, and ever since.
We still spend much more time individually and as a squad in the CT than we do in the MA.
And I thought it sucked before I ever gave it a chance.
For all those who think that the Ct is a slower pace than the MA, sometimes it is. But, often it has a much faster pace than the MA. Some maps have bases that are less than 10 miles from each other, even as little as 4 miles! That means fast action! CVs also last longer, the limited plane-set and players means that CV feeding furballs can last for hours. I have had many nights where I have averaged a kill every 2 or 3 minutes for an entire night!
The classic match-ups are what does it for me, however. Fighting only Spits and Hurricanes in 109s can be every bit as immersive as a scenario, without the slow pace and wait time. I actually find myself recalling what I have read about how particular planes fought each other, while I fight.
The CT isn't for everyone, but I am sure that there are many out there who still think as I did, "It can't be any good because it only draws 5% of what the MA does."
eskimo
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Bravo ...... Sabre. Well written.
I am only 3.5 months into AH and has an ex AW driver I spend most my time in the CT as it reminds me alot more of the Full Realism arena we had. More of a sense of accomplishment and realism, atleast for me.
Also, I have flown several missions in the CT that Hazed threw together. This made it much more enjoyable, as the nme numbers were not rediculously overwhelming such as to shut out any possible chance of completion. Wtg Hazed ;)
Also, I cant wait for the BoB to come back, I would love to try and get a foot hold on Britian.
Keep up the good work CT staff! It is much appreciated.
Jospe
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I think the CT is a success for HTC because the format is controlled by players. If CT players are dissatisfied then it is not HTC's problem. The CT players get to control how the CT functions and its popularity or lack thereof is strictly up to them. Basically I see it as HTC giving the CT guys a private sandbox to play in where they can argue among themselves about why nobody wants to join them rather than ranting at HTC.
Hooligan
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Make only these small changes :). No dar just counters to locate the general area of wherethe fighting is at. Make the icons say 109, spit etc. for nme icons or Tac, Dano etc. for friendlies no distances. And thats it!! :)
BTW the CT is my new home!!! If I fly in the MA it will be jabo hops only. For some reason I score more kills in the CT than in the MA. The MA sucks if ya ask me its to damn crowded and and have to be a altmonkey to have a alt adv. Dweebs crowd the skies in spits and niks and if thats not bad enough it always takes at least 3 of em to kill me.. I'll out fly all of em but I alway find the ground or a nice HO..
CT team don't change the CT for nothing!!!!!
CT Team
Cw
475th Sq. "Satans Angles" 475th Fg.
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So when the MA is closed you get over 400 in the CT? When it is night time you get a hundred more or so? Do you admit that allied vs axis is a sim killer or is WB not enough proof?
Look... parity and variety are essential. the BOB was a success because it had parity and... to some extent variety. the plane choices were all viable (real choice)but.... most of all... you had planes that could be flown no where else!!! they were new planes that everyone wanted to try and you had the only viable place to do it. it was a freebie for you.
Variety... your fantasy arena is the most popular... the farther you stray from "historical the better you do but... you claim that variety is not a factor... despite the numbers evidense in your own arena. You also point out that the MA started with half a dozen planes... well... that is true but.. half a dozen planes in the MA is equal in variety (variety of planes you fight with and against/combinations) than many times that many in the stodgy "historical" CT.
I do bet that you are right about HTC being happy with the CT tho... they got some of the worst "realism" nazis to all go play in one sandbox and beat each other up instead of them for a change.
sorry you don't like the way I put things but I am not saying anything that hasn't been said by people who's opinion you respect plus..... polyannas piss me off.
lazs
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Ok, we understand lazs, you don't like the CT. And you being the toughguy armwrestlin kinda straight shooter you are don't like polyannas like us. We understand that. But I think you're whining up the wrong tree. You want the CT used for something else no? Based on your almost non existant use of the arena, you express that you are not at all happy with what is being done there, right?
Why don't you write HTC and lobby them for the changes you want? Maybe you could armwrestle pyro or HT for control of the CT. Give it a shot man.
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well gee hblair... thought it was you that came off as the tough guy with all your "old fart" and "take your geritol" comments. I merely pointed out that someone in your condition should be a little less free with insults. I certainly wouldn't be calling people "old fart' if I was in the shape you are in at your age. I just thought it would be amusing for an old geritol taking fart like myself to arm wrestle a tough guy like yourself who is "half" my age.
lazs
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Lazs said...
polyannas piss me off
So Lazs, that would make you the dried-up, bitter old prune of a biddy (in the story "Polyanna") that refused to see the good in others, and couldn’t stand to see others happy when she was so miserable. Nice analogy;)…I like it. Nice to see you finally admit it. Now the healing can begin:D.
Sabre
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Actually lazs, you come off as the tough guy with your daily ridicule of our work in the CT. You don't bother with being at all courteous about it ever, and if we get sick of it and say something back, well then, we just fall in your trap, don't we? You're the type of bellybutton who will take shots at people just to get a reaction. That's your gig here. Yet you do nothing here to contribute. But that's the way it's supposed to be huh? If you participated in any of the volunteer work around here, well, you'd be open for criticism huh? And you couldn't have that. People might say stuff that gets to you. Heck, I notice from a photo that you're in your 50's and mention geritol and age and you get all defensive and teary-eyed and want to armwrestle. That was so easy man. You're no toughguy. Just a turtle who won't come out of his shell.
:)
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Instead of arguing about wether or not the CT is a success/failure.. why not simply admit it could use more players?
I think Toad presented an extremely valid point and a decent idea on how to impliment CT settings in a less impacting manner. There is absolutely no need to get defensive about it... he's not proposing two MAs... simply a methodology for impliminenting changes in a manner to attract more people.
AKDejaVu
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I'd be happy with 10 to 15 players on during the day. And 30 to 50 players during at night. Anymore than hat and the CT becomes more like the MA. Well at least thats what I think.
Cw
475th Sq. "Satan Angles" 475th Fg.
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Hmm... I don't recall ever coming off as a "tough guy" those were your words. I just felt that someone in the shape you are in or as slow witted as yourself should not be calling 50 "old fart" or worring about someone in their 50's taking a food suplement. It would appear that if anyone needs some sort of nutritional suplement it would be you.
As for the CT... well... I think it is obvious to everyone that you guys are more than a little thin skinned.... you ain't no HTC in that respect.. I think we can all appreciate HTC a little more after seeing you guys in action.
Contributions? well.. I suposse that anyone who writes is "contributing" . I probly have advanced as many ideas as the next guy and put em out there to be criticised.. In fact you have allways been one of my loudest critics. lamest... but one of the loudest nonetheless. I have probly added a little research and data from time to time just like everyone also. Not that that matters.
point is... you guys don't want any help... you just want praise. You aren't soliciting ideas so much as you are trying to reinforce allready held ideas. Look at the posts you agree with and look at the ones you don't... #ers would be a bad thing for you in any case. The tenuous grasp you have on a viable arena would fall apart if the unwashed started arriving. All the forced politness and fairness facade would fall apart.
lazs
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I can tell you what I like in an arena.
It's not the planeset. I could care less if we have 4 or 40 planes to choose from. The fact of the matter is that I enjoy flying a 109-e4 as much as a P51-D. Of course, if I expect to encounter P51-Ds, you won't find me in a e4.
I like the thrill of flying in areas that are "aircraft dense." I don't enjoy furballs and rarely do I "cherry pick" from the periphery of a furball. Examples of what I enjoy would be a planned defense of a base under attack [hunting goons, destroying resources at the attacking base and occasionally trying to prevent the base from being overrun.] Or, a planned offensive strike against an enemy base. Both scenarios result in "airplane dense airspace."
Having said what I like in arenas, let me stress what I like about HTC. Flying the same airplane again and again can be boring (to me at least.) I like the opportunity of choice. HTC and the main arena gives me choice.
Would I be happy in the CT if the MA vanished (or didn't exist)? Sure, but I would immediately start agitating for a greater variety of airplanes.
My idea of a perfect arena would be one with the following characteristics:
1. An arena that's difficult to reset.
2. A war that starts on Monday and ends on Sunday. The winner would be either the country that reset the map or the country with maximum damage points.
3. A rolling plane set that includes "new" planes each day of the war.
Will I be happy if my "perfect arena" never happens? Sure, I'll have a ball in the MA. If the MA went away, I'll have a ball in the CT.
Would I be happy in an arena which doesn't offer the opportunity of "airplane dense airspace?" No, I would find other ways to entertain myself.
curly
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Its been a while since I flew in the MA/CT (I only flew in those for the first 2 free weeks then went to the H2H lol) But I acuelly liked the CT more other than the lack of players, but I'm use to 8 players max 30 or 40 would be Great lol
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Yeah, I hear ya lazs. You were all innocent and got attacked by that crazy fat guy from alabama. Whatever makes you feel good.
As far as the CT, your advice on it is uneducated as you do not fly there. Your criticisms, unlike most other peoples, are what you percieve from the outside. You don't have first hand experience with what the CT may or may not need. All you know is what you've seen posted on this board. Lemme guess, that's all you need right?
You can get the last word in, I'm sure it will be more of the same...
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Warning!
LazsTard Alert!
LazsTard Alert!
This thread is being tardified.and hijacked by a LazsHole-LazsTard.
All value and intelligent thought is being smothered and redirected into mindless-meaningless-tard-blather.
You may now resume an intelligent meaningful discussion.
That is all.
eskimo
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For some of you new guys... eskimo is a teacher. He is teaching the next generation.
lazs
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Exactly Deja. Well put, that is what I was suggesting.