Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: brady on April 09, 2002, 04:17:36 PM
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We are happy to say all is GO for Tunisia this Friday, Map Master NUTTZ has labored long and hard to bring us this spectalur map! I sugest you all go and download and just fly around and look at it, it is that cool.
I took the liberity of alowing earler models of some of the fighters to add depth to the set and a little diversity.
Alies:
B-26
C 47
Huricane Mk I, IIC, IID
LVTA-2, A-4
M16
M3
M8
Ostwind
Mosquito
P-38
P-51B
Panzer IVH
PT Boat
Seafire
Spitfire I,V
TBM
Germans/Italians:
Bf 109,E-4,F-4,G-2
Bf 110C-4
C 47
C. 202
FW190A-4
JU 88A-4
LVTA-2,A-4
M3
M8
Ostwind
Panzer IVH
PT Boat
The Ostwind was added to represent the large number of 37mm and 40mm mobile AA mounts used by both side at this time. The P 51b and the P 38 that we have are not the models that were in use at this time, the P51A was used in NA, so I going to limit these planes to a few fields in the NW of the map. Medieum Bombers will be enabled at Medieum and Large fields only. The Alies get two CV's one with Seafires and Huricans, the other with Huricans only, both of course will have the TBM.
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Almost forgot:)
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Interesting matchup.
Suggestion.. give the axis the 109g-6 and the C205, and enable the p47d-11 also.. I'd not miss the 'b' pony a bit if yah left it out and put the p47d11 in. ;)
I suspect thats a typo on the Fw190a4.. u mean the a5, yes?
Any of these birds perked?
In any case, lookin forward to it.
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Hangtime, that sounds like a pretty fair trade to me. ANyone else want to comment?
Suggestion: could any of the Axis rides be enabled at the axis CV's? Of course they would be hard to re-land on them, But I seamed to screw up not knowing Germany and Italy have no CV based planes.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Hangtime
Interesting matchup.
Suggestion.. give the axis the 109g-6 and the C205, and enable the p47d-11 also.. I'd not miss the 'b' pony a bit if yah left it out and put the p47d11 in. ;)
I suspect thats a typo on the Fw190a4.. u mean the a5, yes?
Any of these birds perked?
In any case, lookin forward to it.
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No perks at, all all planes free.
G-6 and 205 did not see action in Tunisia.
P47 did not see action in North Africa.
Yes sory A-5:)
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If we called yah terrible names and screamed and stamped our feet would yah change yer mind?
No?
Can we call yah terrible names and scream and stamp our feet anyway?
(checks list of uncalled names)
Henh. damn. None of those names were ever used in North Africa either.
;)
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LOL!:)
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Originally posted by brady
No perks at, all all planes free.
G-6 and 205 did not see action in Tunisia.
P47 did not see action in North Africa.
Yes sory A-5:)
hmm did the p38L <--- note this lil letter see action in north africa? big difference bewteen a p38E-G and L models.
may as well put in a 109g6 if you're gonna put in the P38L.
if there were only a way to slightly pork the 38's performance to reflect an earlier model, until one is actually modeled.
the P-38L was, after all, a 1944 plane and we're talking late '42 thru mid '43 action.
just sayin'
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Yes Shane you are of course right, howeaver P 38's did serve in this theater and I do not feal the P 38L is going to cause an imbalence in any way. It would be nice if we had an earler P 38, but we do not:(
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well with the 51b and the 38, the allies are going to have the two fastest planes, none of the lw's gonna be able to touch them. and like the 109g6, neither of these versions were used in the n. african campaign.
i can't follow the logic of "109g6 wasn't used in N.A., so we won't use it" when you go ahead and use allied versions of planes that saw no service there either, especially late '43 and mid '44 planes in a late 42/early 43 planeset. and actually, the a-36 (forerunner of the 51) arrived in N.A. just *after* the tunisian campaign, and the 51B is quite a different plane than the A-36. as is the P-38F used in N.A. compared to the P-38L.
so consider adding the g6 for a little parity (the differnece between the early/late 51's and 38's are more pronouced than the differences between the 109g2 and 109g6) - a gameplay concession just as the 51B and 38L are. or take out both the 51B and the 38L.
:)
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The first A-36A flew on September 21, 1942. Deliveries of the A-36A were completed by the following March. The A-36A equipped the 27th and 86th Fighter Bomber Groups based in Sicily and in Italy. They initially were painted in olive-drab and light-gray finish and were painted with yellow wing bands and yellow circles around the national insignia. Both of these Groups arrived in North Africa in April of 1943 just after the end of the Tunisian campaign. They saw their first action during aerial attacks on the island of Pantelleria, with the first sortie being flown on June 6, 1943. The A-36A was involved in the taking of Monte Cassino, and participated in the sinking of the Italian liner *Conte di Savoia*.
The Lightnings were soon in regular combat in the North African theatre. The first of these took place on November 19, 1942 when the P-38Fs of the 1st Fighter Group escorted B-17s on a bombing raid on the El Aouina airfield at Tunis. The three P-38 groups contributed a great deal toward the establishment of local air superiority in the area. On April 5, 1943, 26 P-38Fs of the 82nd Fighter Group claimed the destruction of 31 enemy aircraft as against the loss of six Lightnings.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_17.html
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_6.html
:P
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LOL Hang
P51B will be uncatcheble but no problem, not all that many people fly it because of guns, the people who do fly it and fly it well are damn fun to fight with.
Sounds like a great setup :)
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Nuttz: The Italians DID produce a very capable carrier aircraft for the CV they had under construction but never finished. The CV was a conversion of a liner, and was destroyed in port by P-47's according to my sources. The aircraft developed to fly off of it was built and operated from land, and a float plane version was operated off ships using catapults. The Italians built this aircraft to have good range and carry a usable bomb load (and a small torpedo, if I'm not mistaken) for anti-shipping work. They did this to preclude the need to develop specialized attack aircraft such as dive bombers and torpedo planes. I can't remember the name or disignation of the aircraft, but I believe several hundred saw service.
By the way, I spend some time off line with your terrain, and it is terrific. Great job. I only wish HiTech had let you keep the bridges in.
Sabre
CT Staff
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When i designed this map I did use geographic data, some military (Rommel's line Is really about 25 miles off from real life, but moved it for gameplay). I had no idea the axis do not have a CV based plane. So the axis have 2 CV's with no planes, the good news is,, water is only on the top edge and 1 side, so the Axis do controll MOST of the water to shore area and will have plenty of support. I also think i made the axis feilds stronger and giving them a small advantage to defend. I asked Bradys5 to keep buffs limited to Medium only, I think this will be alot of fun. If he desides to add large buffs , that also wouldn't be a problem since it is a small map they would never get enough alt. I also used the cloud editor to help hinder the bombing.
I am in no way a historian I just do alittle research make the map balanced with the tools provided by HTC and tried to build it unbias. So if a few things aren't accurate, so what, fly have fun. I Hope to get to play on both sides of this map.
I remember one of the first senerios in AH , i didn't get a plane but was asigned to Ripsnorts Tank platoon, GAAWD THAT WAS FUN! I didn't expect to have so much fun in a tank. I hope this map rekindels that spark between ground and air working for a common cause.
This will be an interesting week, I like to see who can gain ground.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Sabre
Nuttz: The Italians DID produce a very capable carrier aircraft for the CV they had under construction but never finished. The CV was a conversion of a liner, and was destroyed in port by P-47's according to my sources. The aircraft developed to fly off of it was built and operated from land, and a float plane version was operated off ships using catapults. The Italians built this aircraft to have good range and carry a usable bomb load (and a small torpedo, if I'm not mistaken) for anti-shipping work. They did this to preclude the need to develop specialized attack aircraft such as dive bombers and torpedo planes. I can't remember the name or disignation of the aircraft, but I believe several hundred saw service.
By the way, I spend some time off line with your terrain, and it is terrific. Great job. I only wish HiTech had let you keep the bridges in.
Sabre
CT Staff
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why didnt they let you keep the bridges?
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thanks for the smaller map
even with less numbers it should stay interesting
all who make it possible
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They were fully operational, One problem was the runways which were used as the bridge is slightly transparent, so you could see PT boats slitely threw the bridge, you could also fire threw the runway and kill the tank or PT boat below/above you. HiTech didn't want his paying customers to complain or subject them to NOTHING but THE BEST!!!! And I can't blame him. I'm sure Bridges will come to AH someday.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by TheOxman
why didnt they let you keep the bridges?
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I have a source that indactaes that indacates that P51 dive bombers with the 27th and 86th Fighter-Dive bomber Groops of the NW African Airforce at Rasel Ma in French Moracco Aprial 43 were operational and took part in the fighting.
Aprial 9 1943 first mishion by USAAF P-51 takes place over Tunisia.
Nov 14th 42,the First and the 14th FG transfer from Englad to North Africa, apearentaly their were many sorties and mishion types flow by them, the book goes on to list a ton of stuff realting their exploits. Aparentaly the Pacific P 38 units had to wait the conclushion of fighting in NA for replacements do to the presing nead for the type in NA.
Source's for above info: Americas Hundred-Thousand by Francis H. Dean
The reasion I am alowing P 51's and P 38's is because the type did see service in NA maybe not the exact same model. In the case of these two planes I realy feal that they will not unbalence the plane set they will not be available everywhere and will be representave of US aircraft that were in theater. Much like the LA-5FN and the Yak 9t on the Stalengrad map neither of which saw combat over Stalengrad and did not enter service untill a few months later, they like the US planes listed above are all I have to work with and will be left in the game. The 109G-6 we have is way out of context because of it's aramement and would tend to imbalence the plane set.
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this from a source i consider to be 100% reliable when it comes to questions about ww2 planes... it's a guy who has all sorts of resources and materials an docnnections. this what he had to say about the p51/a36 issue...
"A36s of the 86th FG in March 1943 followed by the 27th FG in June 1943. 35
P51A/F6A (Modified for recon) Mustangs were shipped to North Africa in March
43 as well, serving with the 111th and 154th Tac Recon Squadrons of the 68th
Observation Group.
No Merlins until Italy :) "
Dan
but.... it's not realllll important, it'd just be nice to have the 51B and 38L be challenged by it's contemporary, the 109g6 for playability.
how about resetting CT tour for this portion so we can see how planes stack up against each other?
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fyi the g2 is faster and climbs better then the g6. The g6 only allows for 30mm option.
109g6 really wouldn't make a fek of difference when trying to run down a p51b or p38. now a g10 :)
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This looks like it is gonna be great! The VF27 will have to trade in our trusty f6fs for seafires though.
As far as the 51b and 38L debate, the 190 a5 is a far better ride anyway.
Are these two going to be limited to a couple of bases? Or would that upset 'ahhemm' a certain member of the community more?
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fly anyplane you want! As i ground assualt your base.
NUTTZ
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UUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMM ErgRTC?
If you think the 190 A5 is far better then those two you gotto be doing something wrong with em. Both the P51B and P38 can outturn and EASILY outrun the 190 A5. 190 A5 is better in dives then the P38 and better in roll then both but that's it.
Both those two are allso faster and better at all aswell as faster at the deck.
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wilbus, I use the 190a5 as a bnz only plane. Whenever I fly it, I stay out of the furball and use it in fast dives. Furballing in one is possible, but I dont like to. p51 is way to squirrelly for me. I also like the infinite ammo supply and good gas mileage.
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oh and the main reason is the level at which it is ranked in the MA (only place I fly it, or used to I should say). It is ranked pretty low so its great for building perks and not giving them to p51 pilots....
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I like the A5, and have always furballed in it. That doesn't mean I always live, but it is a good ride, and the sweetest handling of all the 190s we have.
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Mustangs and 190A-5 and 109G-2 but no Spit 9.
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Yes it is the sweatest handeling 190 we have, it is great and really good B&Z but both the P51b and P38l hold energy longer, P38 alot worse in high speeds but it is faster in level speed at most alts. Both the P51 and P38 turn alot better.
I will take my 190 over any other plane any day, I love it.
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cc wil, but the p-38 and the p-51 are not very convenient to use unless in the very northern part of the map. So the axis really enjoy an AC superiority in this one. OK by me really.
We were chatting last night about the planeset in the CT. I was wondering why the Spit9 wasn't enabled. It was certainly operational during this period of time. I was also wondering about the Typhoon. I know ours is a later model but early model typhoons were operational in '42? Buzz was there and stated that typhoons and spit('s were not in theatre. I am not so sure. I know P-40's were there for the 27th FS in NA.
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I think you nailed your own answer, Ammo. I might be mistaken, but Tunisia didn't see Spit IXs this soon. Spit Vs made up the bulk of the commonwealth forces, correct?
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I'm with Wotan- the G2 is a better fighter for this theatre. IMHO the A5 is the best all-around fighter in the theatre anyway.
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I know for a fact that Typhoons were not operational in NA at this time, 2 or 3 were sent for operational testing only, Since my sources on the spit were a little ambigiuos I went with BUzz on the exclushion of the Spit 9 in NA.
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Oops, found a reference. No.72 RAF received MkIXs in February 1943, with the rest of the RAF Med forces being upgraded to Mk Vs, VIIIs, and IXs by mid-1943.
Page 32, Supermarine Spitfire, Chaz Bowyer, 1980.
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spit 9 should be there and the typhoon certainly shouldnt.
put typhoons in and we'd never see another hurricane up :(
i also feel p38ls and p51b are a bit superior but by no means unbeatable.
I would like to see a few more of those winning fights in them admitting they have an advantage rather than gloating though.
My personal thoughts on introducing incorrect models as substitutes?
First if a model is a later and superior one, some sort of penalty must be imposed.Either a low eny value so score is much lower or for a perk cost.
Id then try and find a similar performing enemy aircraft and allow it too but perked for same cost.
in the case of the P38L in tunisia(much later model)?
3 perks and add 110g2 for 3 perks
in the case of p51b(much later model but some sources claim alison was better low alt performer)?
2 perks and add 109g6 for 2 perks
at least this way neither side can complain there is no 'leveler' or at least an attempt at it.So far though the p51b and p38 havent flooded into the arena and spoiled the 43 aspect too much so I'd leave it as is unless people start to get annoyed by it.
I feel this is an impoortant area in the CT.We cant claim historical realism in matchups if we keep using later models for one side but not the other.In the Germany map it was agreed the 190a8 was a good replacement for the 190a6 BUT was only asked for because the Allies already had several 'substitute' planes it was needed to make people feel it was fairer and to close the performance gap a little(though not by much).
Now we have the 110G2 we have a reasonably similar jabo platform to p38L so putting one in if the other is there seems fairer to me.For instance if the US got the earlier P38 that actually WAS there in 43 then the me110G2 gets dropped too.
Likewise the p51b.If we get a p51a then the 109g6 gets dropped.
doesnt this seem more fair to you guys??
To be honest Tunisia is such fun i havent got annoyed by the p38and p51b much if at all.I at least have a couple of good aircraft to fight them with in the 109g2 and 190a5.This is really a comment on ALL setups.Especially PTO where it really does notice a whole lot more.
Oh and before some fool comes in claiming 5mph or a few loadout changes dont make a difference I say 'UTTER BS' when im in rolling scissors/rope a dopes/dives/climbs or very near to catching an enemy even a few mph or a few HP make ALL the difference.and im sure those that claim it doesnt matter are well aware of it also ;).
anyway thats my veiw but then im not a CM ;)
YET :D
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Originally posted by Kieran
Oops, found a reference. No.72 RAF received MkIXs in February 1943, with the rest of the RAF Med forces being upgraded to Mk Vs, VIIIs, and IXs by mid-1943.
Page 32, Supermarine Spitfire, Chaz Bowyer, 1980.
TY very much Kieren.
So will it be enabled brady?
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OK where was No. 72 squaderon? in Tunisia? I will eneble it just give me a litle more info and some mony:)
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From the same reference as stated before:
Although the bulk of Spitfires supplied to Africa in the initial months of the war were predominantly Mark Vs, in February 1943 No 72 Squadron was re-equipped with Mark IXs from Gibraltar, and within six months became the highest-scoring unit.
I am looking for a specific reference to any squadron that flew IXs in Tunisia. Don't take this wrong; I like the setup as it is. I'm just curious at this point. The only thing I am pretty sure of is IXs were in Africa in 1943, but not sure about whether they were in Tunisia or not.
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In September 1942, the Squadron moved to North Africa to support the Tunisian campaign before moving on to Malta the following year with the updated Spitfire IX.
Here's a quick source (http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/h57to74.html)
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Pongo says that the P-51B, P-38L and Mosquito should all be taken out.
Allies should only have the Spitfire Mk Ia, Spitfire Mk V, Hurricane Mk I, Hurricane Mk IIc and Hurricane Mk IId.
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The arena seems fairly well balanced in the CT as is...
why F#CK with it!!!!!!!!!!!??????????
SKurj
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S!
There may have been a few Mk IX's, but they were in the distinct minority. By far the largest number of Med Spits were Spit V's, including those serving with the USAAF.
Even into late '43, the Brits tended to upgrade the engines in the Spit V's to LF model rather than replace them with IX's. And in '44 the V's were replaced with VIII's in the Med.
If IX's are in the setup, they should be a 3 point perk in my opinion.
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No by all means add the 38l so that lightning fans want to play your game. Dont pretend its for historical reasons or play ballence.
Add a merlin mustang. One of the best planes made in the war period and one that wasnt in the war in the desert at all. Add it so that Pony fans will play your game and dont pretend it was anything like an A36 or a P51a. It is ahistorical and unballencing.
Add the Mossi for some mis begotten reason. The Hurri 2 isnt enough I guess. So you have a rocket equiped mossi in a theater that never saw any such thing. Nor the rockets I bet. We actually have the actual ground attack plane of choice in theater for the allies but that is not enough. Lets invent one. Instead of the P40s that the allies actually struggled with they have Pony Bs. LOL
The Spit IX WAS in north africa. In as many numbers as the 190A5 was.
Why even pretend that these two US planes were not added as concesions to their fans to try to attact them to the CT?
Putting in a Pony B as a filler for the A36 is like putting in a Ta152 as a filler for a 190A4.
I just think its hillarios that the game can be fudged in advance for the Allied players. Hillarios.
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"No by all means add the 38l so that lightning fans want to play your game. Dont pretend its for historical reasons or play ballence. "
Yes it is true I have attracted quiet a few new players by the adation this airplane to the plane set, realy far more than I had hoped for considering I added it for the reasions I stated and not the one's you sugest. In fact the hords of P 38 fans are simply overruning the north of the map, it's realy quiet a problem, in fact the front has compleatly stagnated in the sector they are available in. Please excuse my rampent sacarsim:) If I had the Proper P 38 I would of gladely used it, much the same can be said for the La-5FN and the Yak 9T in the Stalengrad set up, niether of which saw combat in stalengrad but were all I had to work with.
"Add a merlin mustang. One of the best planes made in the war period and one that wasnt in the war in the desert at all. Add it so that Pony fans will play your game and dont pretend it was anything like an A36 or a P51a. It is ahistorical and unballencing. "
I realy do not think it has made one bit of a difference what so ever, If memory servies the A model actualy preformed better at lower altitudes, They are rarely sean and hardely Unbalencing, and are available in the same sector as the P 38's, one of the bases they were available at A10 was retaken despite heavy fighting by both sides in a reasionable amount of time, hardely unbalencing, Ahistorical, yes, but given the right tool's I would of gladely used an "A" or a P 40 instead. Once again I added them for the reasions I stated and not those that you sugest.
"Add the Mossi for some mis begotten reason. The Hurri 2 isnt enough I guess. So you have a rocket equiped mossi in a theater that never saw any such thing. Nor the rockets I bet. We actually have the actual ground attack plane of choice in theater for the allies but that is not enough. Lets invent one. Instead of the P40s that the allies actually struggled with they have Pony Bs. LOL "
My referance sources state that the Mossie was in theater, even so for the sake of argument we could say it is representave, of British ground atack aircraft like the Beaufighter, once again I am forced to make do with what I have to work with.
"The Spit IX WAS in north africa. In as many numbers as the 190A5 was."
I could of left out the FW entirely I supose, once again if I had an A4 I would of used it.
"Why even pretend that these two US planes were not added as concesions to their fans to try to attact them to the CT? "
lol , once again I added them for the reasions I stated.
" Putting in a Pony B as a filler for the A36 is like putting in a Ta152 as a filler for a 190A4. "
A bit over dramatic, I think that if they were actualy hvaing the effect all this sugest's the allies would of wone the battle several times over, they have not in fact, I rarely see these planes.
"I just think its hillarios that the game can be fudged in advance for the Allied players. Hillarios."
How much time have you spent in the CT this set up?
16min and 32 seconds! Zero kills! for the entire tour?!
Man I hope I have the wrong guy, I hope I did not waste a lot of time responding to this for a player who has 16min and 32 seconds in the CT and Zero kills...
hmmm, aside from the time he may or may not of spent in the CT this tour he did raise a few points that merited comment on, and did speak some truths.
The primary point his post illustrated is this, we do not have compleat plane set for the entire war, and are forced to make concestions for the sake of gameplay, fortunately HTC is adding new planes all the time and this wil cease to be a big problem in the future, Ultmataily I decided to add these planes and I bear the responsabality for the plane set. I do howeaver feal it is a balenced one.
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Originally posted by Buzzbait
S!
There may have been a few Mk IX's, but they were in the distinct minority. By far the largest number of Med Spits were Spit V's, including those serving with the USAAF.
Even into late '43, the Brits tended to upgrade the engines in the Spit V's to LF model rather than replace them with IX's. And in '44 the V's were replaced with VIII's in the Med.
If IX's are in the setup, they should be a 3 point perk in my opinion.
Well you went from saying there were "no spit9's in NA" (by your sources of course) to now well maybe there were a few.
Hey, it is a great terrain, and when the arena has good numbers its alot of fun. Depending on what bases are owned by who.
I tend to agree that the having the p-51, p-38, were added (in out of the way bases) to attract folks. The FW190 was added at all bases for whatever reason, while the RAF's answer to it, the spit9, was ommited completely. I will take a stab at it and say it was to squelch some whines about this great AC's performance and to ensure good numbers on the axis side.
So, that said, its OK to be honest and say we set this arena up based on reaction rather than on history, or maybe a little mix...I dont know:)
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Hold on gents. Is it possible, just slightly, that Brady added the planes for the reasons he stated?
Is the arena balanced? I've played both sides, and I think so. I have not felt overwhelmed on either side.
Is the arena overwhelmed by P38s and P51s? I've yet to see one of either anywhere.
Do both sides have roughly equivalent offensive power? Yes. The Ju88 carries a huge load, the Mossie is fast.
Does anyone setting up a CT have to work within the planeset to carefully select planes that will work within the timeframe/map, and in doing so have to make compromises? Yes, but this does not mean they are doing so to avoid whines.
There is no reason to begin screaming "Bias!". To me, this is the best arena and the best total setup yet. Just my opinion of course, but the fights have been fun.
Could the arena live without a couple of the planes? Of course it could, just like it could live with a couple more. Is it just me, or is the setup not fun like it is? Spit IX? Hey, sorry to even go looking for it, I was merely interested, not trying to stir up trouble. Naive of me, I suppose. FWIW, I could not find any specific Squadron No.s that flew Spit IXs in Tunisia, just general references to them being used in Africa. I would not be ready to change anything until I could prove it, and maybe not even then. IMHO, the arena is fine without them.
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I've played both sides in this set up. It is IMNSHO the most balanced planeset (after BoB, of course:)) we've had yet. I've not seen one P-38 or P-51 in there yet, btw. We're not going for 100% historical accuracy, as we don't have the planeset to support it. What we're going for is a balanced arena, which Brady has done a great job of providing (with Nuttz help;)). So fly it and enjoy it. I know I am:D.
Sabre
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brady
Its a beautifle map. An interesting historical period.
But why include AC that where not there? Especialy later AC then were there? Especially all in favour of one side? It is the nature of a bias that you do not feel it. Ask yourself this.
The 190D9 was not in theater either. It is an upengined fw190a5 basically. Like the Pony B is an upengined A36 apache. What could it hurt to have the D9 in some out of the way Axis field?
the same is true of the 109G10..what could it hurt?
Now do that and listen to the whining.
Then remove the PonyB and the 38L and listen to the whining.
While you are at it. Add the 110g to fill in for the hs129 and the Ju87d while we are at it. ....
Now remove the Mossi..
Did the germans get the M16 in the CT? Not sure but I doubt it. Yet they obviosly had legions of mg and light cannon armed half tracks.
If you took all these decisions that do not appear to matter to you and made them instead in the favour of the axis. Does it feel fair to you? Could you imagine the uproar.
So dont tell me it doesnt matter. The overwheming nature of the concesions granted the Allies screams loud and clear that it does matter. Else why do it.
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S!
At the altitudes which most battles are being fought in this arena, (1000-5000 ft) the best plane is the 190A5. It has one of the best climbs of any aircraft, (the G2 may be a little better) deadly guns, great roll rate, excellent instantaneous turn rate, and quite a decent sustained turn rate with WEP. Plus it is much faster than anything except the P-38L and P-51b.
Used in pairs, the 190 is basically unbeatable.
And no one seems to be flying the two U.S. planes much.
Personally I think the P-51 should be eliminated, but the P-38L isn`t imbalancing enough to be a problem. It may climb better than the P-38F, but turnrate is probably worse.
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Pongo, unless I missed somthing( I may have I am not infalable:) ), I beleave I already answed all you point's already.
Pongo why don't come in to the CT and fly it for an evening as the Axis, who it apears you think I slighted, and then let me know what you think.:)
It is one thing to look at that list and ponder the possabalities and queit another to actualy fly in the CT.
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the current setup favors the LW. Not only is the 190A5 the factor that buzz points out, whoever owns what fields comes into play as well. Currently the p-51 and the P-38 are not a factor simply because of where they are enabled. It was wise to do that. Enable the pony and the lightening to draw those fans however they have to pay for it with online game time reaching the fight. It has made them vitually unseen most of the time I was in there.
This is a fun setup even so. I have enjoyed most of the time I had in there immensely.
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Surprisingly i was SE on the map and encountered a Pony, Given the map is small 128x128 flying from the NW fields ( where they are enabled) probably didn't take that long.
I've played both sides and have my bellybutton handed to me evenly. I think Bradys5 did a great job balancing the planeset. Emitting the Large Buffs from this map was at my request ( and my only request) I felt the med bombers were quite sufficient for this small map ( althou the size of the map would curtail the larger buffs from gaining alot of ALT. I Haven't heard one complaint as to them not being enabled on this map. Could Tunisia use later war plans? Sure, I think the CT team is trying to have FUN first then so sort of "historical " set second. It's all about FUN people and that is exactly what I am having in the CT.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by -ammo-
the current setup favors the LW. Not only is the 190A5 the factor that buzz points out, whoever owns what fields comes into play as well. Currently the p-51 and the P-38 are not a factor simply because of where they are enabled. It was wise to do that. Enable the pony and the lightening to draw those fans however they have to pay for it with online game time reaching the fight. It has made them vitually unseen most of the time I was in there.
This is a fun setup even so. I have enjoyed most of the time I had in there immensely.
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Admitedly, the absense of allied heavies is a huge consesion in the game in favour of the axis.
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you know bradys5 belonged to a lw squad most of his time in ah. In another sim he was also in a lw squad. Why you think he would be biased is rediculous.
In the past 3 tours in the ct pongo has flown less the 6 hours. In the last 2 months (going bac to bob until now) he has 16 min in the ct.
How are you going to tell folks that fly there whats unbalancing?
I appreciate your points but if you read what brady has said and what the folks who fly there have said you will see that it is very balanced and quite fun.
The only thing that can happen to make the match ups 100% correct is to get more planes modeled. Absent that the ct staff are working with what they have. Its been proven that the less choices of planes the smaller numbers you have in the ct.
I enjoy the ct spit 5s are fun to fight. A lot of fun.
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And I fly mostly allied.
Your point is? I dont have to be a LW fan for life to see that some of those substitutions are un neccessary and silly.
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Gee whiz, can this be so complicated?
Fly in the arena. Fly both sides. Fly all the planes. Test it out. I'm pretty sure you can be untouchable if you fly your ride correctly, and you can die like a worthless dog if don't.
But mostly, fly it and see if it is fun.
We've already been told the arena was designed as much with balance in mind as history, so relax. That's a pretty harsh measuring stick you're using.
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I care dont what you fly.
my point is you dont fly in the ct so any statement you make is completely irrelevant.
I thought I was pretty clear :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Wotan
I thought I was pretty clear :rolleyes:
You were... Here Wotan... give him this.
Should that fail... ;)
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Sorry, but I really don't see what your beef is here Pongo. The Spit Vs seem to hold their own very nicely (at least against me ;)), the arena numbers don't get overly lopsided (a tribute to the people flying) and one side doesn't roll across the map on a nightly basis (a tribute to the designer and arena managers). Has it even been reset yet?? :confused:
What more do you want?? Purely historical matchups?? Until HT's crew develops EVERY plane we are never going to truly have that are we? So why not simply enjoy the closest thing that can be offered.
The P38s and ponys don't bother me (I think I've seen three total)... I just shoot them in the face and make them fly those same two sectors to the fighting again :D
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I guess it does make sense to add Allied aircraft to the mix that where not even in production at the time of the battle. I just took a while to see it. I guess it does make sense to give the axis ostwind to the allies but not the allied m16 to the axis.
The truth is that it doenst make sense from a play ballence perspecitive or from a historical perspective.
But it apperently is fun. Have fun with it.
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Take a hard look at the planeset, I think it is lopsided, the allies clearly have the advantage.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Pongo
wow. look at the dweebs roll out.
So what I fly is irrelivent. how is what brady flys relevent then?
A few of the plane selections and vehicle selections are silly. If pointing that out is a crime..
GUILTY
lol
I really would dearly love to hear the noise if the opposite selections were made...
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Originally posted by NUTTZ
Take a hard look at the planeset, I think it is lopsided, the allies clearly have the advantage.
FWIW, I haven't yet had a chance to fly for the Allies. Whenever I log in, I pick the side with the lower numbers. That's uniformly been Axis.
Not that I'm complaining. For one thing, I'm finding out that it is possible to kill Spitfires, which I never really believed before. For another, it gives me a chance to practice with the 202 (NOT that I've been killing any spits in the 202, mind you).
As others have mentioned, the perk planes aren't flying when I am. Haven't seen a 38 yet (in fact, I didn't know they were enabled), and only one P-51.
I can't see how anyone who's actually flown for an hour or so in this setup can complain that it isn't a roaring good time.
- Oldman
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Originally posted by Pongo
But it apperently is fun. Have fun with it.
As it was intended... not historical to the plane but fun.
Frankly, I get tired of going against the exact model of aircraft I'm flying in the MA. I'm pretty sure I won't find that occuring in the CT unless I'm in GVs and that is a concession of not enough options. Now... if I can just figure out how to really beat a Spit V one on one :p
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wow. look at the dweebs roll out.
So what I fly is irrelivent. how is what brady flys relevent then?
A few of the plane selections and vehicle selections are silly. If pointing that out is a crime..
GUILTY
lol
I really would dearly love to hear the noise if the opposite selections were made...
because you stated that brady was adding allied planes for some reason and it a made the allied planeset "unbalancing". You said said that. I was pointing out that brady would have no reason to do this. See your quote below.
I just think its hillarios that the game can be fudged in advance for the Allied players
Your points are roadkill
What you fly is irrelevant but where you fly is 16 min in two months in the ct hardly makes your opinion of any value.
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So last month did only the three guys that flew in the CT get to comment on it? Im a real rare bird in this game..no time in the CT.
I have played there a night or two in the past and had a blast doing it. I am glad that you guys are enjoying it and that more people are playing there. I support the concept and value the work that people do to keep it going.
Only reason I ended up here was becase I was misquoted by Karnak. Get your cheerleaders in line.
Its a ton of work. wtg Brady and Nutz
real shame to add planes that at the designers and cheerleaders own admission, do not ever show up in the arena. Yet their existance must be at best made excuses for.
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The fun factor in the current CT outweighs any perception you may have of unbalancing planes ie P51B and P38L.
I have flown both sides succesfully even flew the P51B around the map getting some kills one time, on the other hand i have succesfully killed the P51B everytime i have met one 1v1 .
Yea it is common to actually find a 1v1 fight in the CT :)
Point being the planeset although not 100% accurate is certainly not unbalancing.
I actually believe the Axis have the upper hand with this planeset if you discount the P51 and P38 which are so rare i count myself lucky if i see one.
109 and 190 v the spits and hurri's is a regular slaughterhouse :)
Well it is if you know how to fight em anyway.
Having great fun in this CT the only one so far that has completely kept me away from the MA.
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I am very happy so many people are having fun in the CT this week NUTTZ's map is a wonder indead. Thank you all for your suport:)
NUTTZ's is curentaly working on another map for us all, The Kuriel Is. It will be coming Later this Spring:)
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Pongo, I haven't attacked you for your opinion. I don't expect you to have flown a long time (in the CT) to have a valid opinion. I have merely taken another viewpoint.
What I do find a bit distressing is you interpreting Brady's intent when you do not have a reasonable cause to do so. He point-blank told you what he was doing and why he did it. I have flown extensively on both sides and I believe he has succeeded in doing just what he stated he wished to accomplish. Sure I have to squint my eyes a bit, but it is no different than any scenario that has been assembled before. He's making do, and he's done a good job of balancing history with gameplay IMHO.
Oops, I'm a cheerleader now.
I keep telling you to fly it. If you choose not to, that is your choice. If the concessions are too great for your liking, I can't blame you for staying out. No problems.
But you have no right to read Brady's mind. Where has Brady shown a lack of integrity to the degree you should question his motivation, especially if he has offered a reasonable explanation? Sure, I could see it if he had some history of being duplicitous, but has he? I don't think so. Therefore, and until I am given reason to believe otherwise, I will take at face value his explanation for the way things are- especially since my experience with the arena agrees with his statement.
My point is simple; it's getting to the point the volunteers are going to stop volunteering. I haven't seen a single volunteer effort lately (last month or two) that hasn't resulted in the volunteer getting kicked in the teeth. It's getting old.
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From an A-5 drivers point of view...
The LW has a large advantage due to the Spit V drivers tendency to want only to mix it up on the ground. That allows no-talent-BNZ-vulching-dweeds such as myself to do our thing more or less unhindered.
On the other hand, have three Spits cruise around over the furball below at 15K (having made a pact before hand not to drop below 5k or so) and things get ugly for us poor Luftwhiners in a hurry.
(Edited 'cause I made no sense.)
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Keiren.
You are correct.
Brady I am sorry.
You can all take it out on me in the CT tonight..
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Teeth? they have teeth left? PIGPILE ON THE CT TEAM!!!
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Kieran
I haven't seen a single volunteer effort lately (last month or two) that hasn't resulted in the volunteer getting kicked in the teeth. It's getting old.
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S! Pongo, you're good people. :D
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S!
Yep, it`s definitely true. A Spit V ain`t much down low against an A5, but get it up over 15k and suddenly the A5 starts to suck for air. And the gap between climb and speed narrows a bit.
Spits are better high up, despite all the dweebs who prefer to hang around at 1000 ft looking to be vulched.
Of course, then the 109G2 starts coming into its own too up there... ;)
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Thanks Kieran, Wotan, NUTTZ, and all the little people:)
And ty Pongo.
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About Spit 9s, they were used heavily in Tunisia in 1943. I haven't done any specific research but I know for sure that 31st FG and 145 Sqn and Polish Fighting Team had them. The Germans knew they were there too, and there was a 109 driver (I forget his name) who earned a repuation for being able to shoot down Spit 9s. I'm sure a more thorough research effort would uncover more units using the Mk. IX. It's true that Spit 5 was still the primary RAF day fighter during the fighting in Tunisia in 1943, but there were plenty of Spit 9s.
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Probably not on the cards, but I'd like to see it run another full week with the planeset tweaks as they are now.
TTFN
snafu
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from feb to april the only reference I have to the spit 9 being used in that time frame was no 72 squadron who was stationed in malta.
We are not dealing with the entire 1943 year we are concerned with feb to the beginning of april. I really dont care if they are there or not. But I havent found 1 reference to spit ixs being stationed at any base in north afrika over the given time.
Now granted we have made concessions particularly on the us (actually on every us plane) the 190a5 march 43 III./SKG 10 (schnelleskampfgeschwader : fast bomber group). They were used as fast strike jabos against armor.
III./SKG10 (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/schlacht/biiiskg10.html)
Show 1 base where the spit 9 operated between feb april 1943 and brady said he would add it. He may add it anyway. If he does I would recommend the 205 be available as well.
Ideally an a36/p51 1 and early 38s p40s and b25s would be great then we would not worry about subs.
fyi
Royal Air Force, Middle East 23 October 1942 (http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/017_britain/42-10-23/raf/_raf_middle-east.html)
Western Desert Air Force 23 October 1942 (http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/017_britain/42-10-23/raf/wdaf.html)
I am still searching for a 1943 oob for the western desert RAF
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Originally posted by Wotan
from feb to april the only reference I have to the spit 9 being used in that time frame was no 72 squadron who was stationed in malta.
We are not dealing with the entire 1943 year we are concerned with feb to the beginning of april. I really dont care if they are there or not. But I havent found 1 reference to spit ixs being stationed at any base in north afrika over the given time.
Now granted we have made concessions particularly on the us (actually on every us plane) the 190a5 march 43 III./SKG 10 (schnelleskampfgeschwader : fast bomber group). They were used as fast strike jabos against armor.
III./SKG10 (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/schlacht/biiiskg10.html)
Show 1 base where the spit 9 operated between feb april 1943 and brady said he would add it. He may add it anyway. If he does I would recommend the 205 be available as well.
Ideally an a36/p51 1 and early 38s p40s and b25s would be great then we would not worry about subs.
fyi
Royal Air Force, Middle East 23 October 1942 (http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/017_britain/42-10-23/raf/_raf_middle-east.html)
Western Desert Air Force 23 October 1942 (http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/017_britain/42-10-23/raf/wdaf.html)
I am still searching for a 1943 oob for the western desert RAF
Kieren has already found this--
Although the bulk of Spitfires supplied to Africa in the initial months of the war were predominantly Mark Vs, in February 1943 No 72 Squadron was re-equipped with Mark IXs from Gibraltar, and within six months became the highest-scoring unit.
and this--
In September 1942, the Squadron moved to North Africa to support the Tunisian campaign before moving on to Malta the following year with the updated Spitfire IX.
why would the axis need the 205 as a counter? The 190A was there evidently and certainly as capable. I personally think that without the spit9, the 190A should be removed or restricted to 3-4 bases in the north-east corner of the map.
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samething I found ammo read your second quote I think I see something about malta.....or your first theres something about gibraltar
malta sicily crete all had sorts of planes and squadrons that flew sorties over north afrika.
the 190a5 was in North african bases and it as much a substitute for the other types of 190s (a3 and a4) that were there as is the p51 or 38. However the performance differences arent as great as they are between an a36 and p51b or a p38f and a p38l.
The spit ix hasnt been proven to have been stationed in NA. Come up with 1 spit ix at 1 base and brady would add it.
He made add it anyway and I could careless.
Again were are talking feb to april North africa
we dont need a 205 as a counter however I know a few folks who would fly it.
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wotan--
Why would brady add it if I could prove that a spit9 squad was based in NA?
What I am getting at is he based the pony and the P-38L but in limited bases. While the A36 might have been there ( I would like to see that reference too), the P-51B is a much diferent AC. The same for the P-38L. We have evidence that the spit9 was in theatre, moreso than we have evidence that the mossie and the p-51B. and the P-38L. I am saying this--its not that its absent because of its rarity in the theatre, its absence is because of its great performance. He doesnt want to piss off the folks that fly the 190's and the 109's. That is the way I read it anyway.
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the p38 and p51 are a gameplay concession fer you allied types. by limiting them up north and at a few bases he was able to do that with little inbalance.
Spit ix wouldn't unbalance anything. But on the otherhand where we have a reasonable historical evidence for a given plane type we should use them. Spit v was "the" spit for feb april 1943. And it is in this set up.
The spit ix even by the quote you sited
"gibraltar.....6 months later it had the highest kill count" and "later in the year they were re-eqipped with spit ixs and moved to malta" was not stationed in NA.
If you are then saying that since we made the exception with the p51b and p38l then why not a spit ix... well then why not a g10 or d9 or 152. Theres a limit somewhere.
The axis having a5s in unlimited numbers is off set by the allowance of the p51b and p38l. The spit ix would just be giving the allies on more concession then necessary even though I believe its impact would be limited. It would most likely be stuck at 1 base in a corner somewhere. After all even if 1 squadron had them flying from malta their impact in rl feb april 1943 was minimal.
the difference in performance between an a3 and a4 isnt that great to make a fuss about imho.
So clearly the allies have the benefits of the "gameplay concessions". Do you really need another? Clearly we need more planes a p40 in particular since it was used by both us and raf. But the current set up is competive and balanced. Unlike the pac set ups or the eastern front set ups where again the bulk of gameplay concessions are on behalf of the allies. A spit v is a capable aircraft. At 15k it will give an a5 a good run.
This is the one setup (along with bob) where parity is the closest.
I have a higher k/d vrs spit ixs then spits 5s and they really dont bother me either way. And if brady was really concerned about lwhiners then his new worry would be the allied whiners who already have the benefit of the majority of gameplay concessions.
Besides that he already explained his descision further up in this thread.
EDIT
Why would brady add it if I could prove that a spit9 squad was based in NA?
because he said he would. if that aint good enough for you ask him yourself.
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oops a36
Michael Russo of the 522nd FBS/27th FBG/12th AF based in Tunisia scored five kills in his A-36A. He got a Fw 190, two Me 109's, a Ju 52 and a Fiesler Storch
havent really looked hard but it seems a36 was delivered in march 43 and didnt see action until afet the axis surrendered in tunisia. I have read where it first saw service in pant......
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Originally posted by Wotan
the p38 and p51 are a gameplay concession fer you allied types. by limiting them up north and at a few bases he was able to do that with little inbalance.
Spit ix wouldn't unbalance anything. But on the otherhand where we have a reasonable historical evidence for a given plane type we should use them. Spit v was "the" spit for feb april 1943. And it is in this set up.
The spit ix even by the quote you sited
"gibraltar.....6 months later it had the highest kill count" and "later in the year they were re-eqipped with spit ixs and moved to malta" was not stationed in NA.
If you are then saying that since we made the exception with the p51b and p38l then why not a spit ix... well then why not a g10 or d9 or 152. Theres a limit somewhere.
The axis having a5s in unlimited numbers is off set by the allowance of the p51b and p38l. The spit ix would just be giving the allies on more concession then necessary even though I believe its impact would be limited. It would most likely be stuck at 1 base in a corner somewhere. After all even if 1 squadron had them flying from malta their impact in rl feb april 1943 was minimal.
the difference in performance between an a3 and a4 isnt that great to make a fuss about imho.
So clearly the allies have the benefits of the "gameplay concessions". Do you really need another? Clearly we need more planes a p40 in particular since it was used by both us and raf. But the current set up is competive and balanced. Unlike the pac set ups or the eastern front set ups where again the bulk of gameplay concessions are on behalf of the allies. A spit v is a capable aircraft. At 15k it will give an a5 a good run.
This is the one setup (along with bob) where parity is the closest.
I have a higher k/d vrs spit ixs then spits 5s and they really dont bother me either way. And if brady was really concerned about lwhiners then his new worry would be the allied whiners who already have the benefit of the majority of gameplay concessions.
Besides that he already explained his descision further up in this thread.
EDIT
because he said he would. if that aint good enough for you ask him yourself.
first, Brady frequents this board, he is welcome to chime in.
second, you are full of kaka
wotan is 11-1 against the spit5, and 11-5 against the spit9, so you are incorrect on that. It seems that the added performance of the spit9 does give you more trouble than the 5, however you are doing OK any way.
Your logic is flawed. Now I dont really care that the spit9 is not enabled, but now, for the sake of raising the BS flag, I argue with you. You are trying to tell me that the omission of the Spit9 is based on lack of evidence that it was in NA. I say that is not the reason ot was left out. It was left out to appease the LW types, like you. (probably moreso to see extended use of the lesser models, if the spit9 is enabled, they will be everywhere, and there will be much whining from ...the axis side) Whatever, I shoot down all of them and I have fun doing it. I have flown LW for several hours this setup, and enjoyed it alot!
Buzz says this...
There may have been a few Mk IX's, but they were in the distinct minority. By far the largest number of Med Spits were Spit V's, including those serving with the USAAF.
Even into late '43, the Brits tended to upgrade the engines in the Spit V's to LF model rather than replace them with IX's. And in '44 the V's were replaced with VIII's in the Med.
If IX's are in the setup, they should be a 3 point perk in my opinion.
and this...
At the altitudes which most battles are being fought in this arena, (1000-5000 ft) the best plane is the 190A5. It has one of the best climbs of any aircraft, (the G2 may be a little better) deadly guns, great roll rate, excellent instantaneous turn rate, and quite a decent sustained turn rate with WEP. Plus it is much faster than anything except the P-38L and P-51b.
Used in pairs, the 190 is basically unbeatable.
And no one seems to be flying the two U.S. planes much.
Personally I think the P-51 should be eliminated, but the P-38L isn`t imbalancing enough to be a problem. It may climb better than the P-38F, but turnrate is probably worse.
I agree with him, he is telling the truth. The 190A5 is 30 MPH faster than the spit 5, and outpaces the hurri by even further. And it is unlimited. So therein lies the advantage the LW have. NP, I still shot you down yesterday without a problem. However I was in a P-51B:)
Oh.. and here is a source about the spit9 being in NA--
1943 - THE TIDE TURNS
The Poles attached to No 145 Squadron with Spitfire Mk IXs shot down more enemy aircraft in the first two months of 1943 than any other Polish unit in the whole year. In February, No 72 Squadron arrived North Africa with Mk IXs.
http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/spitfire/tide_trn.htm
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With all do respect to my learned brethern...yawn....
I said why the spit 9 was left out way up their somewhere, I said what I ment I endevore to do what I say:) I have found no defenitive evedance that the Spit 9's were in Tunisia proper, that is why they are not in the plane set, that is why the 205 is not in the plane set. Personaly I find the Spit V a more dangeriuos apponet than the Spit 9, I certanialy did not do as you sugest ammo.
Gentailmen this set up will only run till sometime on Friday, that is very near indead at this point, why don't we just kick back and rest up for the debate that will insue over that plane set:)
Tunisia will be back I am shure, undoubtedaly one of my comrads on the CT Staff will do the next plane set for it, hide and watch:)
BTW the reasion I like this so much (one of them) is that it is a learning experance for me, I get to learn more about the perioud in history I love the most, it is despite appearences to the contrary at times great fun:)
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Ammo I have that very link plus several other spit web sites on my website
links (http://www.3-jg2.com/Links.html)
no 72 squad operated out of gibraltar then malta they flew sorties over north africa but were not based there. It was 1 squadron. We dont have the base it operated from so if it were to be enabled it would need to be at a base it the upper nw corner.
tour 26
Wotan has 19 kills and has been killed 6 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
Wotan has 8 kills and has been killed 6 times against the Spitfire V.
tour 25
Wotan has 21 kills and has been killed 1 time against the Spitfire Mk IX.
Wotan has 16 kills and has been killed 1 time against the Spitfire V.
I could care less about any spit. and I am at best a mediocre virtual pilot.
fw190 (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190.html#RTFToC5)
the 190a3 190a4 were both there in numbers more a4s then threes. go to the site there and read the difference in the a4 a5. they use the same eng. So was the 190f-2. So to say the a5 is unbalancing is pointless when the a4 had similar performance and was used on a large scale. Also ofcourse the spit v was slower then the a4 and a5 thats why they developed the spit ix.
Also your quote
The Poles attached to No 145 Squadron with Spitfire Mk IXs shot down more enemy aircraft in the first two months of 1943 than any other Polish unit in the whole year.
doesn't refer to spit ixs in afrika alone but in every theater during the early months of 1943.
so
In February, No 72 Squadron arrived in North Africa with Mk IXs.
so this 1 squadron stationed in gibraltar
Although the bulk of Spitfires supplied to Africa in the initial months of the war were predominantly Mark Vs, in February 1943 No 72 Squadron was re-equipped with Mark IXs from Gibraltar, and within six months became the highest-scoring unit.
and transfered to malta with spit ixs
In September 1942, the Squadron moved to North Africa to support the Tunisian campaign before moving on to Malta the following year with the updated Spitfire IX.
No where have you produced anything that we already dont know. Or have you shown where spit ixs were stationed in North Afrika. As I stated before there were planes stationed through out the med on all sides that flew sorties over north afrika. The spit ixs contribution was minimal. We dont have any bases other then those in tunisia. Where do you suppose we put spit ixs? everywhere?
The allies have the bulk of the gameplay concessions they are not short changed at all.
Brady has stated why he set up up the ct like this. No matter how you think lwhining had to do with it is bs. Thats just the same trump card you allied whiners through out to mask your own :)
fyi
You have never seen me make a post about this plane or that plane whine whine whine never. I never whined about the d11 or the 110g2 :) I never hijacked a thread to suit my own bias about what plane is needed where. So the lwhiner card your pulling must be to address someone else.
I dont care about the 51s the 38s or a spit ix. We know no 72 squadron had spit ixs in 1943. it appears at malta. But just show where in north afrika they were based brady will add it.
During the invasion of sicily and italy spit ixs certainly were there in numbers in this portion of 1943. Every quote or link you have posted everyone of us who took time to check found the same thing.
Brady has said he would enable it if you can show where in North Afrika it was stationed.
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So all the AC in the current setup were stationed in the county of "tunisia"? Well, except for the *concessions* that you *gave* the allies? .
However, the spit9, which we have evidence that participated in the NA campaign (which is what wotans words were, "The spit ix hasnt been proven to have been stationed in NA. Come up with 1 spit ix at 1 base and brady would add it. ") Of coarse, you revised your position in later posts.
It was left out, cool. Dont tell me it was because of historical reasons, when that just isnt the case. It was left out for other reasons...already alluded too.
your learned brethern
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ps. check funkedup's post "brady"
TY
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I did, it will be done, I only wish I had that info earler in the week, I do appoligise, my refrences libary is sorly lacking a good spitfire book, I am going to rectify that this weekend, also geting a good boston and wildcat book too:)
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ty and
great time to fly in the CT:)