Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on April 09, 2002, 05:21:51 PM
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Aid held up outside Jenin (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1918000/1918594.stm)
14,000 refugees + Israeli Army - media accountability = ?
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seems like both sides are shooting there... or am I misunderstanding the term "fighting"?
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
seems like both sides are shooting there... or am I misunderstanding the term "fighting"?
AKDejaVu
Obviously you don't understand the word "fighting" or "war". Those words are now defined as the Palestinians get to bomb and murder as many Isreali's as they want and Isreal should turn the other cheek and not seek out the terrorist where they live.......
LOL Dowding, media accountability. I think that's the first time I've seen somebody actually try and use those words in the same sentence.....
:D
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I'm talking more in terms of the civilians caught in the middle... or am I misunderstanding the term 'refugee camp'?
Udie - wait a minute. So the Palestinians do actually own that land they're living on, as part of a Palestinian State? Because I'm afraid that's would need to be recognised if any 'war' was being pursued. In which case, aren't the Israelis an occupational force and therefore fair game? And if it's 'total' war, with nationhood at stake, at which point do civilians enter the equation?
The notion that this is a war is as ridiculous as the concept that Israeli citizens can be justified as targets.
I'm just interested in what's happening over there. Unlike you, Udie, I'd rather get my news from reputable media sources, not IDF press releases.;) That's what I mean by media accountability - the presence of a camera can make people think twice about their actions.
Some of the greatest evils the world has ever seen have been perpetrated behind closed doors, away from international scrutiny. The holocaust just being one.
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Its sad that people can get caught in the middle of all this dowding... that much is true. I guess I just don't understand the point of your initial post.
AKDejaVu
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See my last post.
The Israelis (or more accurately, the leadership) seem to be ostracising themselves from the very people with whom they can do without.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'm talking more in terms of the civilians caught in the middle... or am I misunderstanding the term 'refugee camp'?
no you're not. It sucks for them to be sure they are there through no wish of their own. It sucks and I wouldn't stand for it if I were in their position. I'm waiting for the day that they finally realize that suicide bombings and acts of terrorism is only going to keep them where they are at.
Udie - wait a minute. So the Palestinians do actually own that land they're living on? Because I'm afraid that's would need to be recognised if any 'war' was being pursued. In which case, aren't the Israelis an occupational force and therefore fair game? And if it's 'total' war, with nationhood at stake, at which point do civilians enter the equation?
Well maybe they should ask Jordan, Egypt or Syria what happened to their land. Look at the map and it looks like they lost more land to arabs than they did to Isreal.
I'm just interested in what's happening over there. Unlike you, Udie, I'd rather get my news from reputable media sources, not IDF press releases.;) That's what I mean by media accountability - the presence of a camera can make people think twice about their actions.
hehe nice try, but that pic I posted the other day was the only time I've ever been to that or any jewish media site, except for one that I can't remember the name of (David Horowitz writes a column at their site). The media around the world sucks for the most part. They all put thier spin on it. All of them. I will say that from all the news sources I read that the western seem to be the best, but not by much.
Some of the greatest evils the world has ever seen have been perpetrated behind closed doors, away from international scrutiny. The holocaust just being one.
Correct, and I'm not saying that Isreal should not be scrutinized over this. BUT the one thing I have yet to see anybody on the palestinian side of things say that Isreal has the right to defend itself. That means war. It may mean a war against civilians if it's civilians that are committing the terrorism. Arafat has been asked, begged and pleaded to do ONE THING. Get on the radio in Arabic and tell the suicide bombers to stop. Period. If he had done that he would not be captive in his office now. If he had not been in power for the past 20+ years Palestine would most likely be a country now. Look at Lebenon, oops you better not, you may find out they treat the Palestinians just as bad as the Jews do.
The truely sad part of this whole mess is that the Palestinian people are pawns to the rest of the world, especialy to the arabs. Too much hypocracy on every side of this fight for it ever to end up good.
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this is what's happening;
Palestinians Ambush Israeli Soldiers, Killing 13 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20020410/ts_nm/mideast_dc_1414)
the Palestines create the war in the middle of their "civilians", then cry out when Israel's retaliation results in the death of "innocents".
As they do not value their own son's and daughters lives ( ie, great honor to have your 17 -20 year old son/daughter martyr themselves :rolleyes: ), why would you think they'd care if their actions resulted in numerous causualities of Palestine strangers ..
then again if they think dying is the best thing, they get to see Allah sooner, I say help the nutcases get there as fast as possible..
Why isn't a faction in Palestine who are against the bombers and violence speaking out? Are they afraid of being killed by their own counrtymen for talking sense? Is there not a faction in all of Palestine against the elimination of Israel? It would seem not ...
:(
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All I can say is WTG !
Maybe Palestinians found out that it is IDF which is occupying their land and not Israeli civilians :)
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Palestine is full of hypocrisy. Arabs are not supposed to gamble, yet there is a casino in Jerusalem. Jordan has 60% of Palestinian territory, yet Israel carries the blame (must be because they are kind and let Palestinians have access to life giving water). Palestinians are engaged in suicide attacks, yet Israeli's are the terrorists.
Palestinian terrorists will be vanquished. Arafat? I think OUR justice system will bring him down.
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Last I saw the West Bank is an occupied territory. In WW2 French/Yugoslav etc. resistance fighters attacked the Germans at any oppotunity and are considered heroes. Yet the palenstinian fighters are terrorists because they hit the Isreali homeland?
Asking Palestinians to accept occupation is asking the french people to like german occupation.
Why isn't a faction in Palestine who are against the bombers and violence speaking out? Are they afraid of being killed by their own counrtymen for talking sense?
The french used to call them collaborators. Afghnistan shows perfectly well what happens to anyone who 'supports' the other side.
Palestine is full of hypocrisy. Arabs are not supposed to gamble, yet there is a casino in Jerusalem.
Not every arab is a muslim. Jerusalem is not only inhabited by Arabs, and is administrated by Isreal.
Jordan has 60% of Palestinian territory, yet Israel carries the blame
The Jordanian army doesn't forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes for Jordanian settlements. Or occupy homes for observation posts. The Jordanian army doesn't shoot stone throwers.
Tronsky
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The Jordanian army doesn't forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes for Jordanian settlements. Or occupy homes for observation posts. The Jordanian army doesn't shoot stone throwers.
Go look up somwhere what happened to Arafat and he`s PLO toejamhead buddies in Jordan.
The truth is that even the other arabs hate palestinians,and they don`t wanna have to do anything with them.The only reason they`re backing Arafat is that they hate jews even more.
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The truth is that mad dog Sharon failed again.
Only a few days after his stupid invasion against the palestinian territory the next suicide bomber has hit his target and got - from his point of view - his revenge against the israelis.
So the next palestine family is officially celebrating a martyr and crying secretly about the loss of a family member who killed himself and others in a stupid act.
But after the massacres of the israeli hordes in the palestinian cities, after the destruction of so many civilian targets the number of angry young people who are willing to perform suicide attacks must have raised extremely.
So - thanks to the war-criminal Sharon the next round of hate and killing innocents will start.
To think that he could stop a the suicide bombing with military is ridiculous.
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I'm curious babek,
To think that he could stop a the suicide bombing with military is ridiculous.
Is Pres. Bush a war criminal in your eyes too?
What do you think we (The US) is using to stop Al Quaeda terrorists?
All in all, I don't think there is a solution to this problem, aside from all out total war. And unfortunately, I think it's heading that way very fast. I hope somehow a solution is found aside from that.
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I cant remember that President Bush had ordered his troops to execute civilians and destroy their civilian buildings systematicly to get new Lebensraum.
So I dont see in him a war criminal.
Sharon on the other side is a war criminal - he cant travel for example to civilized european countries, because there he would be arrested.
Even the tiny Belgium has an arrest order for Sharon because of his war crimes during the Lebanon war where he ordered to bombard refugee-camps and butchering hundreds of women and children.
I am convinced that terrorism could never be destroyed by military actions. The best you can get is a temporaly delay of the next actions but these revenge-actions will come often came often harder, because the anger of the people has been fueled.
Just one example:
When the German Reich dishonered France with the shameful treaty of 1871 the hate of the French against the Germans was raised.
The Politicians failed and the WW1 came. The french military was successful.
When France dishonered the German Reich with the shameful treaty of Versailles the hate of the Germans against France was raised.
Again the Politicians failed and the WW2 came. Now the turn was to the german military.
Mad Dog Hitler ordered that the document of surrender of France has to be made in exactly the train waggon, where the German Reich had to surrender officially in 1918.
This circle of hate was interrupted by great politicians.
France could dictate a new dishonorful peace-treaty for Germany but they didnt.
It was a small wonder and a luck for the French and us Germans that great politicians like deGaulle and Adenauer (and later Mitterand and Kohl) ended the hatred of French and Germans and started a friendship policy.
After centuries of hatred and senseless war I doubt highly that there will be a french-german-war in future.
So the politicians here were succesful - and I can only hope that the Mad Dog in Israel will be replaced by an intelligent politician who cares for the interests of his people, instead of manipulating them.
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Palestine and their buddies caused the "Occupation" in the first place!
Israel didn't ask to take the land away from anyone. It was given to them. Then in order not to be invaded they had to launch a pre-emptive strike ('67-68?). The only way to control the Palestine thugs was/is to have the buffer zone.
Now a bus sucide bombing :(
As stated, Israel isn't doing anything America wouldn't do if put in the same situation
Staga, you've made in plain now that you side with the terrorists -
God have mercy on your soul
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"Palestine and their buddies caused the "Occupation" in the first place!
Israel didn't ask to take the land away from anyone. It was given to them. Then in order not to be invaded they had to launch a pre-emptive strike ('67-68?). The only way to control the Palestine thugs was/is to have the buffer zone."
-heheheh... sure. Sounds little naive thought :D
"Now a bus sucide bombing"
-Yep and shelling villages and refugee camps full of civilians with howitzers and missiles launched from helicopters etc.
"Staga, you've made in plain now that you side with the terrorists -
God have mercy on your soul"
-I'm against violence but if someone is occupying my country I sure would use all possible ways to make invaders life as hard as possible. Oh and I'm quite sure you would do same.
French resistance movement did same when germany was occupying France and IMHO those were heroes. Same thing with Tito's partisans in former Jugoslavia when they fought against nazi-germany. Same happened also in Greece, Norway and propably all countries nazies were occupying in WW2.
Looks like you have problems to understand word "Terrorist":
terrorist adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon.
terrorism n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments.
Hmm let's put this one too:
Refugee \Ref`u*gee"\ (r?f`?*j?"), n. [F. réfugié, fr. se réfugier to take refuge. See Refuge, n.] 1. One who flees to a shelter, or place of safety.
As you can see word terrorist is not a synonym for words "refugee", "Lebanese" or "Palestinian". btw word Terrorism fits nicely to word "Israel" too doesn't it?
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btw Eagler your country has been supporting Terrorists earlier too: First one which came to my mind is Nicaragua and Contra rebels.
The American political scandal which has become known as the Iran-Contra Affair occurred in 1985 and 1986. First of all, high-ranking members of the Reagan administration secretly sold weapons to Iran, in itself a severe violation of US laws. Then, they gave the profits from the $30 million worth of weapons to the Nicaraguan Contra rebels, thus violating another ruling of Congress. Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, who was the military aide to the National Security Council, was the chief negotiator of these operations and reported first to National Security Advisor Robert C. McFarlane and then to his successor, Vice Admiral John M. Poindexter. The sales to Iran were initially made at Israel's suggestion in order to improve their relationship with Iran and to free some American hostages who were being held by pro-Iranian terrorists in Lebanon. North was the man who set up the entire network for distributing this support to the Contras in the form of ships, airplanes and bank accounts.
Everything might have come off secretly except for the fact that a Lebanese magazine mentioned that the US had sold some arms to Iran. An investigation ensued and Attorney General Edwin Meese announced that the US had in fact sent millions of dollars to the Contras from the sales, thus violating Congress' 1984 Boland Ammendment which expressly prohibited supporting the Contras. Even more investigations followed by the Tower Commission and the Congressional Joint Investigative Committee and they collected 0.3 million documents as well as much more live evidence. In November of 1987, the committee reported that Ronald Reagan was in fact ultimately responsible for his administration's actions but that there was no evidence that he had known what has going on. The administrators responsible for the affair where convicted, but these decisions were subsequently reversed. When George Bush became president, he issued pardons to many who had been associated with the affair. The final report came in 1994 from independent prosecutor Lawrence E. Walsh who concluded that there was no evidence that Ronald Reagan had broken the law, but based on circumstantial evidence it was likely that Reagan had participated in or known about the operation."
Eagler looks like you are good christian. Does these quotes sound familiar?
"But what I tell you is this: Do not set yourself against the man who wrongs you. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn and offer him your left."
and...
"Let whosoever is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."
Smile and world smiles with you :)
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Staga
Please point out an instance when the French Resistance blew up German women and children during WWII ...
They had the balls to strike military targets, many of which were targeted by their allies.
I'd think they'd roll over in their graves with your comparison
Palestine doesn't want peace.
They want Israel dead.
They want America dead.
I say if their actions are a precursor to WW3, I want them & their supporters dead first ... if peace by any means, other than the elimination of Israel and America, is possible of course I'd prefer that - unlike your Pals.
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No staga it doesn't, damn how can someone be so stupid . Your comparison of the contrasandanistas with PLO terrorist cells is sickening .
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Originally posted by Eagler
Palestine doesn't want peace.
They want Israel dead.
They want America dead.
Hmm is there a poll or study made in Palestine or where did you get this info?
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Originally posted by Staga
All I can say is WTG !
Maybe Palestinians found out that it is IDF which is occupying their land and not Israeli civilians :)
Staga
To call me a "Christian" would be a stretch :)
I believe in God and that murder of any kind is wrong.
I am not the one that said "WTG" to the killing of 12/13 Israeli soldiers who in my book were doing their duty protecting their countrymen in an action best described as self defense.
What are the alternatives? Israel pack up and leave?
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Originally posted by Staga
Hmm is there a poll or study made in Palestine or where did you get this info?
My eyes and ears
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Luke 6:27-36
Love your enemies; do good to those who hate you; bless those who curse you; pray for those who treat you spitefully. When a man hits you on the cheek, offer him the other cheek too; when a man takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to everyone who asks you; when a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back. Treat others as you would like them to treat you. If you love only those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. Again, if you do good only to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do as much. And if you lend only where you expect to be repaid, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to each other to be repaid in full. But you must love your enemies and do good; and lend without expecting any return; and you will have a rich reward: you will be sons of the Most High, because he himself is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate.
Sorry Eagler but what you've seen and heard doesn't count as a scientific fact. Good try thought :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
What are the alternatives? Israel pack up and leave?
Yep and search for blueprints of berlin wall.
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Palestine doesn't want peace.
They want Israel dead.
They want America dead.
There are millions of Palestinians.
Very few of them are terrorists.
Most give tacit support to the terrorists at the moment.
If they had a homeland, free of Israeli occupation, without continued Israel settlement, less of them would support terrorism.
Give them something better to aim for and many would turn away from terrorism.
When enough of them feel they have a good enough deal, they will crack down on the terrorists themselves.
So far, the only deal they have been offered is a country split up into 4 blocks by Israeli roadblocks and settlements, with no control over outside borders.
Offer them something better and there might be peace. Keep attacking them and there will continue to be war.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
There are millions of Palestinians.
Very few of them are terrorists.
Most give tacit support to the terrorists at the moment.
If they had a homeland, free of Israeli occupation, without continued Israel settlement, less of them would support terrorism.
Give them something better to aim for and many would turn away from terrorism.
When enough of them feel they have a good enough deal, they will crack down on the terrorists themselves.
So far, the only deal they have been offered is a country split up into 4 blocks by Israeli roadblocks and settlements, with no control over outside borders.
Offer them something better and there might be peace. Keep attacking them and there will continue to be war.
Didn't they (Arafat) just turn down the best deal in a long time end of last year?
Do you think Arafat wants peace? Were would he be once the "war" is gone? Dead, out the door, America? Nope, without their "struggle" I think many if not most of the Pals would be lost without any idea how to act as they have been doing it so long they know no difference..
Staga
Pls forward your Christian messages to ur Pals - 8 years of Catholic school and Mass every Sunday for 20 years, I know them by heart...
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Israel has the right to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks. If some think that protection is a little overboard, let them walk a mile in Israeli shoes.
It is not Israel but the arabs who are in an adversarial relationship. Here's a hypothetical for you:
If the arabs put down their guns and wanted to live in peace, the Jews would do the same. However, if the Jews put down their guns and wanted to live in peace, the arabs would kill them all and throw their bodies into the sea.
Israel is simply defending itself. Any nation is entitled to that.
The palestinians have shown, over and over, that the only peace they will accept is to have it all. To prove that, just look at the Camp David summit and the rhetoric that comes from pal leaders. Anything other than getting it all is unacceptable to the palestinian people.
Israel offered about 97% of the west bank, most of gaza and part of Jerusalem and it was turned down. You can't get better than that. So get real. The pals will NEVER accept any peace offer from the Israelis. They are looking to drive the Jews out by violence and will accept nothing less.
Barak, in desperation, offered the Palestinians just about everything they wanted, except sole control over Jerusalem. For that they suggested some kind of joint arrangement. Barak caught hell from a lot of Israelis over that language, and Sharon rejected it, IIRC. I thought it was a major concession from the Israelis, but it turned out to be the Palestinians who said no.
And as far as Jerusalem is concerned, it is the indisputable capital of Israel. Yet it is totally open to all faiths, including Islam. When Jordan held Jerusalem until 1967, Jews were not allowed. Israel will never take that chance again, especially with the corrupt, arab loving UN.
The real problem I fear is that Arafat really isn't in control of the Palestinains any more. He can't compromise, because of the outrageous promises he's made to his people.
And Staga...you are a sick f/%#
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Joint Statement given in Jerusalem: April 7, 2002
with Amnesty International and the International Commission of Jurists
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Ordinary people are the main victims of the tragic conflict that has unfolded here over the past eighteen months. Day after day the news is of people killed, or maimed for life, and of homes and livelihoods destroyed. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the International Commission of Jurists want to send a clear, unambiguous message to all parties to this conflict, and to the international community. Stop the deliberate targeting of civilians and other persons protected by international humanitarian law. Stop actions that harm them. Immediately deploy international monitors to protect the human rights of Palestinians and Israelis.
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As a fully-fledged State and as an Occupying Power, Israel has clear obligations under international law, and in particular under the Fourth Geneva Convention. This Convention provides for security measures that can be taken to protect itself, but these do not include the excesses now undertaken by the Israeli government. We strongly deplore actions by the state of Israel that harm persons protected by international humanitarian law. These include prolonged curfews with severe restrictions on the movement of people and access for medical personnel; intensified collective punishments; wanton damage to homes, cars and civilian property; looting and theft in the course of searches; and the coerced use of civilians to assist military operations. Such actions violate international standards and transcend any justification of military necessity.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has recently declared whole areas, such as Ramallah and Bethlehem, closed military zones, and impeded the entrance of outside observers, including journalists, human rights activists, government officials, United Nations representatives, and the International Committee of the Red Cross. The IDF has forcibly entered and ransacked the offices of human rights organizations such as al Haq and LAW. Both Palestinian and Israeli organizations have shown great determination in continuing to work under these circumstances, but it has been almost impossible to verify alarming reports about extra judicial executions, "liquidations" of "wanted" Palestinians, and use of lethal force against civilians and other persons protected by the Geneva Conventions.
As a result of the IDF military operations, hundreds of Palestinians have been arrested. The identities and whereabouts of detainees are not known, and the ICRC has not been allowed access to them, raising concerns about their conditions and treatment. Several released Palestinians have reported that, depending on the IDF unit guarding them, prisoners were at times beaten.
In entire cities and towns, ambulances and emergency medical services have ground to a halt. Medical workers and ambulances have been fired upon. The wounded have been denied access to medical treatment; Palestinians have been killed attempting to reach hospitals for routine medical care. Such abuses raise not simply humanitarian issues: they are serious violations of international humanitarian law.
Even in the face of this situation, we are appalled by an increase in the use of suicide bombers by armed Palestinian groups to attack Israeli civilians. Such deliberate attacks on civilians are absolutely prohibited by international humanitarian law. These actions tarnish the Palestinian cause and will not at all help the situation -they only increase the fear and mistrust of ordinary Israelis as well as adding to the suffering in the region. Over the past week there have also been increasing signs of a breakdown in law and order within Palestinian territories as well, including the street-killing of alleged collaborators with Israel.
All these violations must be stopped by those in a position to do so and perpetrators must be brought to justice.
In the face of such a human rights crisis, it is time for the international community to act. Our three human rights organizations welcome the proposal by Mary Robinson, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, that the UN Commission on Human Rights send an immediate mission to the area. We also repeat our call for international permanent presence to be dispatched to Israel and the Occupied territories to monitor the situation, restore respect for human rights and humanitarian law standards and to help protect civilians. The international community, and in particular the United States, should exert its utmost influence to ensure that both the state of Israel and the Palestinian Authority cooperate with and facilitate the work of these missions. The presence of international monitors does not absolve the relevant parties from their human rights responsibilities or obligations. On the contrary it should help enhance them.
Ladies and Gentlemen, civilian suffering is not inevitable in a time of war or occupation. Ordinary people should never become the target of those with arms. All our organizations have witnessed, documented, and reported a wanton disregard for the right to life over the past eighteen months. Such abuse must stop now. Those who commit such crimes must cease them. And the international community is morally, and legally, obliged to act to ensure respect for such basic humanitarian principles.
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I know some people doesn't care about Amnesty International etc but I agree with them. I also hope Mr.Powell's trip to middle east is succesfull.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
And Staga...you are a sick f/%#
Just let it all out; Don't hold your anger my dear neighbour :)
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Isrealis are palestinians too . Palestine is just a region . The old european antisemitic line "go back to palestine jew" has been around for a hundred years. Longer than Isreal or the PLO . I know it's irrelevant . Just thought I'd throw it in here .
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Bad news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1920000/1920463.stm
Looks like military operations in west-bank are not capable to stop suicide-bombings in Israel. It's already clear (for me at least) that using military power is not a answer to crise in middle-east.
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Trying to image such carnage on an US Interstate or major highway, I can't.
If we had a country doing that to our citizens, and "normal" military operations could not stop it, I think you'd see poll numbers in the majority calling for the use of nukes on the offending country/countries.
I applaud Israel's restraint.
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Originally posted by Staga
Looks like military operations in west-bank are not capable to stop suicide-bombings in Israel. It's already clear (for me at least) that using military power is not a answer to crise in middle-east.
Just out of curiosity Staga...what is your answer to the crisis?
And please do remember that any kind of diplomatic solution MUST solve these 4 issues:
1. Jerusalem
2. Water rights
3. Palestinian refugees
4. Jewish settlers
And please, at least try to come up with a serious answer here. Something realistic that both sides could actually agree on.
My bet is that you cant come up with the solution. In fact...I dont think there is a solution. At least not a diplomatic one. The issues involved are simply too complicated, with the parties gridlocked in hopeless situations.
My solution:
Pull CNN and every other news agency out of the area for 1 month. Disable all comunications to and from Israel during that month. Open up refugee camps on Greenland, and offer anyone wanting to leave the region safe passage to those camps.
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Strangely enough, Eagler, when US-bought semtex was blowing up pubs and bars in England (killing dozens and injuring hundreds) in the 1970s, there wasn't much call for the nuking of America or Ireland... ;)
Peace cannot be imposed by military might alone. Dialogue is the way forward, and Northern Ireland is an example of this. Only by opening communications with the IRA was any appreciable progress made. It's been painful, no doubt. Especially when you have bastards like Martin McGuinness visiting Tony Blair at No.10 - a man who 30 years previously had been commanding an IRA 'detachment' on Bloody Sunday.
Sure the Palestinians had a peace deal, but let's not forget that the recent violence was sparked by Sharon himself, visiting a certain mosque in Jerusalem. Not a very sensitive thing to do, but perfectly agreeable if you wanted to stir up a hornets nest for the existing administration. And when that hornet's nest became a little fierce? Hey, look who it is! Sharon the hard-liner, ready to step into breach, take over from the incompetent moderates and hold back the tide of anti-Israeli violence.
Has his ploy worked?
In terms of the advancement of Sharon's political career - yes.
In terms of reducing the number of kids put in holes in the ground (on both sides of the equation) - no. He's failed utterly.
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Originally posted by Dowding
let's not forget that the recent violence was sparked by Sharon himself, visiting a certain mosque in Jerusalem.
Hmm..yes, how foolish of him to think that he could travel wherever he wanted inside the capital of his own country.
And the palestinian response was both justifyable and well-proportioned.
"You walk within 100m of our Mosque, we send in the suicide bombers to blow your women and children to bits"
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I agree Dowding but Martin McGuinness had enough control of his followers to have them stop the bombing long enough for the talks to take hold
Arafat doesn't
Martin McGuinness = Arafat (anyone remeber when the PLO was nothing but a terrorist org?)
The Pals - the crazy ones with the bombs - are animals running wild. No control or leadership.
Just heard the bomber that killed the soldiers yesterday may have been as young as 10 years old. Ten! Did the IRA recruit 10year olds? Suicide bombers? As bad as they were, the Pals are worse ... no reguard for human life. To die for their cause is better than living. How do you talk to ppl with that mindset? What the frig is "their cause"?
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Gosh Babek- it must be wonderful to be you.
Look the "cycle of hate" was ended(not that you could really end hate) by war Not great politicians(can you really call ANY politician great?).
Plus I'm not sure I can blame Sharon for doing what he's doing. I mean he goes to the table for talks and his people get killed. He tries to listen to other countries who say stop the violence and talk and his people get killed. How many people have to die before he should do what HE thinks is going to stop the killing?
War criminal that's to funny. Moron!
More Babek- Babble!
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Israel offered about 97% of the west bank, most of gaza and part of Jerusalem and it was turned down. You can't get better than that. So get real. The pals will NEVER accept any peace offer from the Israelis. They are looking to drive the Jews out by violence and will accept nothing less.
Barak, in desperation, offered the Palestinians just about everything they wanted, except sole control over Jerusalem. For that they suggested some kind of joint arrangement
Barak offered 90% of the West Bank and Gaza, but split up into 4 zones by Israeli settlements and security zones. In other words, fragments of a country.
The Israelis deal also stipulated all external border crossings were to be Israeli controlled, so any time they wanted to pressure the Palestinians they could cut them off from contact with the outside world.
Israel needs to offer a pull-out from the settlements, and an independant Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza.
Why are the settlements there? Can anyone seriously suggest the settlements help Israeli security, or help promote peace?
The settlement in Hebron, for eample, contains approx 400 Jews. Heron has a population of 120,000 Arabs. 30,000 of those Arabs live under martial law in the security zone set up to protect the 400 settlers.
When 29 Palestinians were murdered by one of the settlers, Baruch Goldstein, Israel imposed a 30 day curfew on the 30,000 Palestinians, and took no action against the settlers.
There won't be peace until the settlers are gone. Unfortunately, the settler groups have considerable power in Israel, and the current Israeli government seems to be more concerned about increasing settlement than bringing peace.
The on-going violence suits extremists on both sides, the Palestinians who want to destroy Israel, and the Israelis who want to expel the Palestinians and incorporate the West Bank into "Greater Israel".
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Hortlund:
"As for international watercourses, the 1997 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses provides that states sharing an international watercourse “shall in their respective territories utilize an international watercourse in an equitable and reasonable manner” (Article 5(1)). The principle of equitable utilization applies to surface waters and ground water systems, parts of which are situated in different States. In 1997, the International Court of Justice recently affirmed that this principle constitutes a norm of customary international law. Pending the establishment of the Palestinian state, the Palestinian people enjoy the right to an equitable and reasonable share of international watercourses in accordance with international law."
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"Aggregate consumption of water by Palestinians is approximately 260 Mcm/yr, or only 13% of the capacity of renewable water in historic Palestine. Aggregate Israeli use amounts to 1760 Mcm/yr. Yearly per capita consumption in Palestine amounts to 80 m3, less than one-third of the amount in Israel."
Issues with water, Jerusalem and refugees should be handled in U.N and international courts (Oh I forgot your opinion about U.N; sorry...).
Israeli settlements have no rights to be in occupied areas. World doesn't need another country using "lebensraum" tactic.
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Why did Camp David negoations went to hell" or in another words "What should be avoided when talking about peace in middle east":
Quote from "The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs" (Source: The Palestine Liberation Organization's Negotiations Affairs Department)
Why did the Palestinians reject the Camp David Peace Proposal?
For a true and lasting peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, there must be two viable and independent states living as equal neighbors. Israel's Camp David proposal, which was never set forth in writing, denied the Palestinian state viability and independence by dividing Palestinian territory into four separate cantons entirely surrounded, and therefore controlled, by Israel. The Camp David proposal also denied Palestinians control over their own borders, airspace and water resources while legitimizing and expanding illegal Israeli colonies in Palestinian territory. Israel's Camp David proposal presented a 're-packaging' of military occupation, not an end to military occupation.
Didn't Israel's proposal give the Palestinians almost all of the territories occupied by Israel in 1967?
No. Israel sought to annex almost 9% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories and in exchange offered only 1% of Israel's own territory. In addition, Israel sought control over an additional 10% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories in the form of a "long-term lease". However, the issue is not one of percentages - the issue is one of viability and independence. In a prison for example, 95% of the prison compound is ostensibly for the prisoners - cells, cafeterias, gym and medical facilities - but the remaining 5% is all that is needed for the prison guards to maintain control over the prisoner population.
Similarly, the Camp David proposal, while admittedly making Palestinian prison cells larger, failed to end Israeli control over the Palestinian population.
Did the Palestinians accept the idea of a land swap?
The Palestinians were (and are) prepared to consider any idea that is consistent with a fair peace based on international law and equality of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. The Palestinians did consider the idea of a land swap but proposed that such land swap must be based on a one-to-one ratio, with land of equal value and in areas adjacent to the border with Palestine and in the same vicinity as the lands to be annexed by Israel. However, Israel's Camp David proposal of a nine-to- one land swap (in Israel's favor) was viewed as so unfair as to seriously undermine belief in Israel's commitment to a fair territorial compromise.
How did Israel's proposal envision the territory of a Palestinian state?
Israel's proposal divided Palestine into four separate cantons surrounded by Israel: the Northern West Bank, the Central West Bank, the Southern West Bank and Gaza. Going from any one area to another would require crossing Israeli sovereign territory and consequently subject movement of Palestinians within their own country to Israeli control. Not only would such restrictions apply to the movement of people, but also to the movement of goods, in effect subjecting the Palestinian economy to Israeli control. Lastly, the Camp David proposal would have left Israel in control over all Palestinian borders thereby allowing Israel to control not only internal movement of people and goods but international movement as well. Such a Palestinian state would have had less sovereignty and viability than the Bantustans created by the South African apartheid government.
How did Israel's proposal address Palestinian East Jerusalem?
The Camp David Proposal required Palestinians to give up any claim to the occupied portion of Jerusalem. The proposal would have forced recognition of Israel's annexation of all of Arab East Jerusalem. Talks after Camp David suggested that Israel was prepared to allow Palestinians sovereignty over isolated Palestinian neighborhoods in the heart of East Jerusalem, however such neighborhoods would remain surrounded by illegal Israeli colonies and separated not only from each other but also from the rest of the Palestinian state. In effect, such a proposal would create Palestinian ghettos in the heart of Jerusalem.
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continues....
Why didn't the Palestinians ever present a comprehensive permanent settlement proposal of their own in response to Barak's proposals?
The comprehensive settlement to the conflict is embodied in United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338, as was accepted by both sides at the Madrid Summit in 1991 and later in the Oslo Accords of 1993. The purpose of the negotiations is to implement these UN resolutions (which call for an Israeli withdrawal from land occupied by force by Israel in 1967) and reach agreement on final status issues. On a number of occasions since Camp David - especially at the Taba talks - the Palestinian negotiating team presented its concept for the resolution of the key permanent status issues. It is important to keep in mind, however, that Israel and the Palestinians are differently situated.
Israel seeks broad concessions from the Palestinians: it wants to annex Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem; obtain rights to Palestinian water resources in the West Bank; maintain military locations on Palestinian soil; and deny the Palestinian refugees' their right of return. Israel has not offered a single concession involving its own territory and rights. The Palestinians, on the other hand, seek to establish a viable, sovereign State on their own territory, to provide for the withdrawal of Israeli military forces and colonies (which are universally recognized as illegal), and to secure the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the homes they were forced to flee in 1948. Although Palestinian negotiators have been willing to accommodate legitimate Israeli needs within that context, particularly with respect to security and refugees, it is up to Israel to define these needs and to suggest the narrowest possible means of addressing them.
Why did the peace process fall apart just as it was making real progress toward a permanent agreement?
Palestinians entered the peace process on the understanding that (1) it would deliver concrete improvements to their lives during the interim period, (2) that the interim period would be relatively short in duration - i.e., five years, and (3) that a permanent agreement would implement United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338. But the peace process delivered none of these things. Instead, Palestinians suffered more burdensome restrictions on their movement and a serious decline in their economic situation. Israeli colonies expanded at an unprecedented pace and the West Bank and Gaza Strip became more fragmented with the construction of settler "by-pass" roads and the proliferation of Israeli military checkpoints. Deadlines were repeatedly missed in the implementation of agreements. In sum, Palestinians simply did not experience any "progress" in terms of their daily lives.
However, what decisively undermined Palestinian support for the peace process was the way Israel presented its proposal. Prior to entering into the first negotiations on permanent status issues, Prime Minister Barak publicly and repeatedly threatened Palestinians that his "offer" would be Israel's best and final offer and if not accepted, Israel would seriously consider "unilateral separation" (a euphemism for imposing a settlement rather than negotiating one). Palestinians felt that they had been betrayed by Israel who had committed itself at the beginning of the Oslo process to ending its occupation of Palestinian lands in accordance with UN Resolutions 242 and 338.
Doesn't the violence which erupted following Camp David prove that Palestinians do not really want to live in peace with Israel?
Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist in 1988 and re-iterated this recognition on several occasions including Madrid in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in September, 1993. Nevertheless, Israel has yet to explicitly and formally recognize Palestine's right to exist. The Palestinian people waited patiently since the Madrid Conference in 1991 for their freedom and independence despite Israel's incessant policy of creating facts on the ground by building colonies in occupied territory (Israeli housing units in Occupied Palestinian Territory - not including East Jerusalem - increased by 52% since the signing of the Oslo Accords and the settler population, including those in East Jerusalem, more than doubled). The Palestinians do indeed wish to live at peace with Israel but peace with Israel must be a fair peace - not an unfair peace imposed by a stronger party over a weaker party.
Doesn't the failure of Camp David prove that the Palestinians are just not prepared to compromise?
The Palestinians have indeed compromised. In the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians recognized Israeli sovereignty over 78% of historic Palestine (23% more than Israel was granted pursuant to the 1947 UN partition plan) on the assumption that the Palestinians would be able to exercise sovereignty over the remaining 22%. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians accepted this compromise but this extremely generous compromise was ignored at Camp David and the Palestinians were asked to "compromise the compromise" and make further concessions in favor of Israel. Though the Palestinians can continue to make compromises, no people can be expected to compromise fundamental rights or the viability of their state.
Have the Palestinians abandoned the two-state solution and do they now insist on all of historic Palestine?
The current situation has undoubtedly hardened positions on both sides, with extremists in both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories claiming all of historic Palestine. Nevertheless, there is no evidence that the PA or the majority of Palestinians have abandoned the two- state solution. The two-state solution however is most seriously threatened by the on-going construction of Israeli colonies and by-pass roads aimed at incorporating the Occupied Palestinian Territories into Israel. Without a halt to such construction, a two-state solution may simply be impossible to implement - already prompting a number of Palestinian academics and intellectuals to argue that Israel will never allow the Palestinians to have a viable state and Palestinians should instead focus their efforts on obtaining equal rights as Israeli citizens.
Isn't it unreasonable for the Palestinians to demand the unlimited right of return to Israel of all Palestinian refugees?
The refugees were never seriously discussed at Camp David because Prime Minister Barak declared that Israel bore no responsibility for the refugee problem or its solution. Obviously, there can be no comprehensive solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict without resolving one of its key components: the plight of the Palestinian refugees. There is a clearly recognized right under international law that non-combatants who flee during a conflict have the right to return after the conflict is over. But an Israeli recognition of the Palestinian right of return does not mean that all refugees will exercise that right. What is needed in addition to such recognition is the concept of choice. Many refugees may opt for (i) resettlement in third countries, (ii) resettlement in a newly independent Palestine (though they originate from that part of Palestine which became Israel) or (iii) normalization of their legal status in the host country where they currently reside. In addition, the right of return may be implemented in phases so as to address Israel's demographic concerns.[/quote]
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Interesting link: Israeli Peace Movement (http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html)
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So if the pals want no jews living in their country,does that mean Israel has the rights to kick out all the arabs living inside Israel?
The Hamas said this week:they`ll accept no deal from Israel.They want Israel gone ,and they would let jews live there if they followed the laws of Islam.
Sounds like a great deal,an excellent display of tolerance.
Besides I doubt Arafat has any kind of control over the Hamas,and these dipshits just murdered another 8 civilians.
That`s not freedom fighting,that is coldbooded murder.
And either You aggree or disaggree wether Israel`s right,if they get what they want by these attacks,it will send a clear messege to all the maniacs around the world,that terror IS a way to achive goals.
It will come to the point where Israel has no other choice but kick all pals out of the country.
Sad for the ones who would want to live in peace,but they are the ones who failed to control their lunatics.
Just like in WWII.Not all germans were nazis,but they all payed for letting the mad ones have their way.
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Hortlund - lol Nothing is as a simple as that in the Middle East.
Sharon was a senior politician in Israel and a well-know bigot when it comes to Palestinians. His war record means he cannot even set foot in the EU without been arrested.
This considered, his actions were just a little irresponsible and inflammatory, don't you think?
Eagler - McGuinness DID not, and DOES not have control over his own kind. The 'Real IRA' splintered from the main organisation because the IRA was leaning towards peace and had declared a ceasefire.
They put a bomb in a car in Omagh and killed 38 people, and injured 100s more. From this incident, the current peace deal (Good Friday Agreement), was developed.
There's still sectarian violence happening at the moment, and drug related punishment beatings and knee-cappings are worse than ever, mainly committed by the IRA and loyalist terrorist organisations. The situation isn't quite as rosy as we'd like to believe.
Nashwan summed it up perfectly, I believe.
Caligula - when the arabs are gone, who is going to provide the cheap labour for the Israelis?
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So if the pals want no jews living in their country,does that mean Israel has the rights to kick out all the arabs living inside Israel?
The Palestinians don't want Israeli settlements which are administered by Israel, and defended by Israeli troops, in their territory.
The Israelis would hardly agree to have Arab troops policing Arab neighbourhoods in Israel, with Israelis having to travel through Arab territory to get from one part of Israel to another.
The Hamas said this week:they`ll accept no deal from Israel.They want Israel gone ,and they would let jews live there if they followed the laws of Islam.
Hamas are the extreme of the Palestinian movement.
Give the Palestinians a workable deal and they will crack down on Hamas. Don't give them a workable deal and more will join Hamas.
And either You aggree or disaggree wether Israel`s right,if they get what they want by these attacks,it will send a clear messege to all the maniacs around the world,that terror IS a way to achive goals.
I think the Palestinians got that message by the way Israel was formed, through murder and terrorism.
It will come to the point where Israel has no other choice but kick all pals out of the country.
Sad for the ones who would want to live in peace,but they are the ones who failed to control their lunatics
That is the real Israeli agenda, and the reason why there is no peace.
Israel wants the West Bank. The Israelis won't accept peace that means them giving up the west bank, the Palestinians won't accept anything less.
It isn't about security for Israel, the settlements do nothing to help security. It is about land, nothing more.
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I think it's about death and murder - nothing more.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Hmm..yes, how foolish of him to think that he could travel wherever he wanted inside the capital of his own country.
And the palestinian response was both justifyable and well-proportioned.
"You walk within 100m of our Mosque, we send in the suicide bombers to blow your women and children to bits"
Foolish ?
I don't think that Sharon is an idiot : this act was deliberate ,pure provocation.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I think it's about death and murder - nothing more.
The murder from the Isrealian or those from the Palestinian ?
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Originally posted by straffo
The murder from the Isrealian or those from the Palestinian ?
Both, and may I add intolerance and ignorance by a few making the masses suffer
Whatever you Pal supporters believe, you cannot deny the fact the active group in Palestine are nothing other than murders. Murders of women and children. They need to allow non violent actions take their course through diplomacy. As long as they terror bomb, I say eliminate them as there cannot be peace while they exist.
Hanan Ashrawi the Pal spokeswomen won't even condem the murder of innocents via these bombers (interview live on the news). I don't think they (the Palestines) want peace - any of them - the nutbag bombers or the "leaders".
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Thats an insult to every resistance fighter tronski.
I seriously doubt they would want to be compared with a group that specifically targetted civilians as opposed to military targets.
If those suicide bombers were hitting military targets, then alls fair in love and war. But cafes? Pizza shops? Shopping malls?
Originally posted by -tronski-
Last I saw the West Bank is an occupied territory. In WW2 French/Yugoslav etc. resistance fighters attacked the Germans at any oppotunity and are considered heroes. Yet the palenstinian fighters are terrorists because they hit the Isreali homeland?
Asking Palestinians to accept occupation is asking the french people to like german occupation.
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I find Hamas a disgusting organisation and dislike immensely those that encourage suicide bombers. That goes without saying.
But what is Israel is doing, and what it has done in the last few months under the rule of that bloated bigot, is simply hardened Palestinian resolve to sacrifice everything to achieve their goals.
There was sympathy and support for Israel before all this in most quarters of the civilised world. I think that support is fast disappearing. If Israel doesn't want to find itself isolated politically and militarily, a change of leadership and attitude is needed.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Both, and may I add intolerance and ignorance by a few making the masses suffer
That's the answer I was hoping for :)
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I took this (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/barak_eng.swf) from Israeli peace activist's site; click and see how generous Barak's offer was.
btw does someone still believe that crise in middle east could be sorted out by using military power like Israel is doing right now?
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There was sympathy and support for Israel before all this in most quarters of the civilised world. I think that support is fast disappearing. If Israel doesn't want to find itself isolated politically and militarily, a change of leadership and attitude is needed.
Is it better to be a loved corpse or isolated but alive?
The pals WILL NOT stop.no matter what You give them.
If Israel is no more,they will find someone else to fight.
They don`t know better,they don`t want any better.Posing with
machineguns on TV is what makes them happy,they`re bloodthirsty muderers,and they WILL NOT STOP
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So what are your thoughts on the 18 months of peace experienced over there a couple of years back, Caligula?
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What peace?
Bombings were less frequent,but never stopped.
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Israel exists because Europeans gassed, hanged, skinned, burned, poisoned, machine-gunned, pistol-shot, rifle-shot, medically tortured, and starved to death millions of unarmed, civilian women, children, and men.
Just because they were JEWISH.
Israel fights today to protect its citizens from the very same, if not worse, barbarism from a people in a power-dive back to the Dark Ages.
Listen, and listen good. Israel WILL survive. There will be NO MORE wholesale slaughter of innocent Jews by ANY nation or group of people. If you kill Jews, you will feel the STING of the Jewish response. NEVER AGAIN.
The same goes for America. If the so-called "Islamic Fundamentalists" are so stupid, so ignorant, so inflamed with hatred that they will attempt to terrorize America and Israel BOTH, and invite retaliation from the two finest and most deadly military forces in existence, then so be it.
The autocratic, oligarch "Muslim Community" needs to get a grip on its radicals, quit supporting them militarily and financially, or suffer the dire consequences of their actions.
The opinion of certain segments of the so-called "World Community"(the same segments that bent-over and spread 'em for the Nazis in the 1930's) is as worthless as used toilet paper and about as welcome..........
Cabby
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Is it better to be a loved corpse or isolated but alive?
The pals WILL NOT stop.no matter what You give them.
If Israel is no more,they will find someone else to fight.
They don`t know better,they don`t want any better.Posing with
machineguns on TV is what makes them happy,they`re bloodthirsty muderers,and they WILL NOT STOP
When you're talking about "Pals" and "them" do you meant Palestinians or terrorists or are you using those words like a word "jew"; ie. like when nazies did use in ww2 when they wanted to destroy whole race?
FYI there lives millions of Palestinians and if they all are terrorists Israel would be in a deep watermelon (actually it wouldn't exist anymore).
Nice speach btw; did you copy it from "Mein Kampf" ?
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Diary of the Terrorist
Under siege
April, 02, 2002
I went out of my house today, for the first time in four days. The Israelis allowed us to buy food but we can only be on the streets for two hours.
The city is destroyed. Cars on the side of the road crushed flat like
pizza. Tanks rolled over them. Trees lay broken and dead, shops destroyed,streets dug out, buildings burning and yet the snipers are still on the rooftops looking for prey.
I wave a victory sign to all Palestinians walking down the streets of Ramallah. They smile back with a victory sign. A foreign refugee-AID volunteer asks me to honk my horn to prove we are alive. Beeb Beeb Beeb. All the cars are now honking the horns. The Israeli soldiers are watching and wondering what is going on here? They thought they killed us all, but we're still alive.
I wave a victory sign to a carefully hidden sniper carrying an M16, then I give him the finger, he aims to shoot at my car, but, for some odd reason,he doesn't. I smile at him and speed away.
Two doctors are walking dressed for an operation, I offer a lift, and they step in my car. They both smile. No words are said, just an exchange of warm smiles. We're alive. We will not die. I know where the doctors want to go, they are looking for a supermarket. I drop them in front of a small store, but only peanuts are available. They buy five kilos. Five kilos of peanuts. They offer me some, I share their feast. The meal is most delicious. I've never tasted anything so satisfying. Peanuts.
It starts to rain. It pours. The snipers are still watching, the sounds of the horns are louder than the echo of the rain. The tanks are still there,waiting like wolves for victims.
The streets are full of life, not death. We did not die. We will not die.Life is good.
April, 04, 2002
Still under siege. We remain in high spirits.
We were not allowed out of the houses again today. The Israeli army declared Ramallah a war zone. Funny, I thought this was a vacation of some sort. I am glad the Israelis clarified the situation. All these dead bodies, all this destruction needed an explanation. We finally got one from our benevolent captors. A war zone.
I called my friends in Egypt and around the world, I called my Jewish friends too. Both are in shock. I asked my cousins, the Jewish friends,"are you better off today than you where before Sharon?" I got no direct answer, albeit, I got some anti-terrorism sentiments and "we must defend our civilians" comments. I hear every word over the phone clearly despite of the sounds of the Israeli guns shooting at, oh yes, civilians.
Limited water supply. No bread, electricity is on and off (pun is
intended) and the Israeli army is moving from one house to the next looking for terrorists. God, with three million Palestinian-terrorists still alive,the job is difficult to conclude. Two of my terrorist neighbors (one is three years old the other is the CFO of Palestine's first mobile network) are gingerly looking outside through their window. A father and his daughter, two terrorists, in turmoil. The mother (she is a pregnant terrorist) is asking them to move away from the window. The father, always upbeat, calls me and invites me to his house for lunch. Just think of this reckless invitation. He is willing to share his food and water with his neighbor. Reckless, yet inspiring. I decline, and I offer to come for tea instead. He insists. I decline again.
Inside our complex, two workers (blue-collar terrorists) are going about their business...fixing the generator, checking on the water level in the tanks, looking for more electricity outlets for emergencies and preparing other terrorist activities. A knock at my door. I answer. He stands there with a smile that makes me jealous. He has just changed the flat tire in my car and he is offering me two tangerines and an avocado. I decline. I am
tired of declining those tempting offers. He insists. I accept. The
avocado looks delicious. He is from Gaza (another terrorist haven). He insists that the Israelis have planned this entire raid just to come and take him back to Gaza. I try to convince him that he is safe and will remain here working in the complex.
He looks at me in shock. How can I miss the fact that he is being pursued? "We're all pursued, my friend." I say with pride. He disagrees. A tank hovers by, he rests his case. "I told you they are coming to get me," he says with a smile. I am jealous again of that smile. How does he do it? I try to smile back. I fail. I try again and again. Failure. His name is Mohamed and he is a heavy smoker. I give him a pack of cigarettes. He smiles. Enough already. He walks away, holding the cigarettes with both
hands. A valued gift that he will honor for the next twenty four hours.
The TV is showing a man next to his dead mother and dead brother. Forty eight hours he's spent next to his dead mother, his dead brother. The Israelis denied him an ambulance. A terrorist he will become. Can anyone blame him?
A message on my mobile phone. More bad news, nine towers are down. What do I do? I feel useless. All my training, all my experience, all the management techniques I know by heart are deemed useless. I was not prepared for this situation. I failed to realize or to plan for this eventuality. I am devastated. At this low point of the day I get a call from Khan Younis, Umm Basma, a subscriber I met in Gaza a few months back. She is checking on me. Umm Basma offers to help in any way. She offers to buy me refill cards to charge my phone remotely. The offer is so innocent,
so inspirational. The CEO of a mobile company is being offered refill cards from his subscriber, free of charge, just to help him in this difficult time. My lips are wet, it's my tears touching my mouth, comforting my soul. Suddenly, I am somebody again.
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April, 05, 2002
We were out today for the second time in nine days. Two hours allowed to get food, drink and other necessary under siege goods. I drive my car to the nearest supermarket. Nothing. Only honey and corn flakes (no milk). I drive to the city center searching for more food variety. The first thing I notice is the asphalt on the streets. I realize for the first time why the
Israeli army includes tractors and drilling machines in their arsenal. The asphalt is all uprooted and destroyed. Another anti terrorist technique. But the streets are in good shape compared to the sidewalks. The glass from the windows is on the sidewalks. The glass from the stores and shops is scattered all over. Trees are destroyed (technically killed). The buildings
are all black from the smoke, all burnt from the fire. The walls are more holes than walls. The bullet holes are a little bigger than I imagined them to be, a little deeper than I hoped they'd be. Every floor, every window,every door, is riddled with bullets. They are a signature of Israel's struggle for peace.
I see people in balconies looking cautiously. Shopkeepers are opening their stores just to make believe that business is as usual.
The Israeli army is on every street corner next to their tanks and armored vehicles. They seem surprised. You see, people are not crying and pleading. Palestinians are congratulating each other for just staying alive. Everyone is smiling and everyone is avidly telling his/her story to anyone they see on the streets.
Ramallah city center is filled with people now, most are just happy to be outside. "Hamdellah al Salama, Hakam, park your car and come down for a drink of arak with me." It's my friend George with a group of guys hanging out between the rubble. "Hi George, we're alive." I shout through the passenger window. I drive for a few meters to the parking lot. My god, there are at least thirty cars that are as flat as a loaf of Palestinian
bread. This is not true. It can't be true.
George is already opening my car door and demanding a big male hug. He walwith me back to his friends. Cameramen and journalists are filming the destruction, photographers are taking picture of "Checkers Mall." Well, they are taking pictures of what's left of the "Checkers Mall." Every store has a crowd of people in front of it seeking food and water. The rule set here is Mothers with babies buy first. That really doesn't help organize anything, since every Palestinian woman has a few babies.
George introduces me to his friends, and he insists I join him for a shot of Arak. I don't feel like drinking, but George looks me straight in the eye and says, "Hakam, for the past eight days I've been at home with my wife." He didn't have to say anything else. I take the shot of Palestinian Arak. Warm. No ice. It's sweet and minty.
I excuse myself and cross the street to join a journalist talking to an Israeli soldier standing triumphantly next to his tank.
"Hey soldier, do you speak English?" I say slowly but loud enough for the journalist to hear me. "Yeah, I speak English" the military man answers. "Well, I just wanted to tell you that we're alive. You didn't kill us all. diddly you and have a great day." I turn away and walk straight to my car. I can hear the soldier shouting obscenities at me, my family, my god and my president. I will not look back. I am too scared to look back.
I need a camera. This is too much. The main square in Ramallah, the Manara Square, is an army barrack. At least thirty tanks and hundreds of soldiers are stationed in the main square, in my town. My town. I look at my favorite falafel store on the road parallel to Manara Square. It's completely destroyed. That was the best falafel store in the world. I know every worker by name. They know that I like my sandwich spicy. All traffic signs, lamp-posts, statues, plants, billboards are, like my favorite falafel store, completely destroyed. Phone lines dug out, electric
cables burnt and yet people are all insisting to offer Hamdellah al Salama to each other. What Salama? Is this Salama? Are these people crazy or are they blind? It will take us years to re-build the city. Don't you congratulate me for my safety. Look around you, everyone. I realize that my thoughts are all in vain. George is in a car behind me, his wife is now next to him and his three kids are half way out of the car window. He blasts his horn, sticks out his head and yells "Hakam, Hamdellah al Salama"
Yeppers, "they" all are terrorists...
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Maybe one palestinian girl is today writing a similiar diary like Anne Frank has done, before again the soldiers come and take her away...
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Let's hope She (http://www.gush-shalom.org/kawther/kawth_eng.html)[/URL] has better life than Anne Frank.
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When you're talking about "Pals" and "them" do you meant Palestinians or terrorists or are you using those words like a word "jew"; ie. like when nazies did use in ww2 when they wanted to destroy whole race?
Terrorist.....palestinian
We`re coming to the point where the two are the same.
Small group of pals go out and blow up jewish kids,Israel goes in arab towns to capture terrorist,terrorists fight in cities using civilians as human shield,Israelis kill civilians who are caught up in the firefight,pals see that as the evil deeds of the zionist vampires,pal mother tells her son "diddly it Abdul,we`re screwed anyways,go blow up some jews".
Same damn deal as in Vietnam.Creating more and more vietkong by bombing them.
What to do though?Just let them murder more jewish childeren?
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Funny thing you mentioned "human shields"...
8.4.02: A Human "Defensive Shield": IDF uses Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields
Today, at approximately 1:00 PM, six IDF soldiers entered the al-Baq Mosque in the old city of Nablus, where an emergency clinic has been established. At the time, present in the clinic were 45 wounded persons, four doctors, several volunteers, and ten corpses that it had not yet been possible to remove.
According to the information provided to B'Tselem by Dr. Zahara el-Wawi, a doctor at the clinic, the soldiers entered the mosque with their guns resting on the shoulders of Palestinian civilians who were forced to march in front of the soldiers as "human shields."
According to Dr. Wawi, who spoke with a B'Tselem fieldworker while the soldiers were in the mosque, the soldiers separated the medical staff from the patients, searched the dead bodies, and checked the identities of the injured patients.
The emergency clinic in the mosque was opened last Wednesday, immediately following the IDF incursion into Nablus. According to Dr. Wawi, the clinic's supply of medicines has been exhausted, and as a result the clinic is unable to take in any additional patients. The supply of water in the clinic has also been exhausted, as has the gas that runs the generator that provides electricity to the clinic.
B'Tselem has asked the IDF to allow for the evacuation of the wounded, the corpses and the medical staff from the clinic.
Over the past several days, B'Tselem has received additional reports regarding the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields by IDF soldiers, as well as the prevention of evacuation of wounded persons, and the lack of electricity and medical supplies at medical centers.
Endangering the lives of innocent civilians constitutes a flagrant violation of the most basic principles of international humanitarian law. Such acts cannot be justified based on "military necessity" as the IDF has frequently claimed in regard to many other violations.
B'Tselem calls on IDF commanders to clarify to their soldiers that such acts are absolutely forbidden. B'Tselem also calls for a thorough investigation into these incidents and that those found responsible for these human rights violations be held accountable.
Quote is from "The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories" http://www.btselem.org/
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"What to do though?Just let them murder more jewish childeren?"
Remember there's innocent civilians dying from both nations, not just from Israel.
What to do? Let's wait and see what kind of solution Mr. Colin Powell has. btw I sure hope it's better than one (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/barak_eng.swf) offered in Camp David or that fire under powder-barrel known as middle east won't ever stop...
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And what is your point?
The war the IDF is fighting is far from conventional.
Their enemy does not wear uniform,they can`t judge just by looking at a palestinian if he`s dangerous or not.
Hell...if I was an IDF soldier in that war, I`d want to get home alive too.
The palestinians brought all this on themselves.
If Israel`s intent was to kill them all,and take their land,they would have done it in 1967.And nobody would have said a word,even if they had bulldozed that damn mosk off the tempel-mount.
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BTW
Looking at quotes by israeli sources pointing out bad things the IDF does,should prove You one thing.
Israel is a civilised country,where criticizing anything is ok.
I`m yet to see any damn palestinian condemning the scucide bombing,or showing regret or sorrow for the dead childeren.
If there are good peaceloving palestinians,show me where the diddly they are?All I see is rockthrowing,selfexploding,gontowing amazinhunks. And how about the dancing arabs in Gaza at 9/11.
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Originally vomited by Blabby44
Israel exists because Europeans gassed, hanged, skinned, burned, poisoned, machine-gunned, pistol-shot, rifle-shot, medically tortured, and starved to death millions of unarmed, civilian women, children, and men.
Just because they were JEWISH.
Israel fights today to protect its citizens from the very same, if not worse, barbarism from a people in a power-dive back to the Dark Ages.
Listen, and listen good. Israel WILL survive. There will be NO MORE wholesale slaughter of innocent Jews by ANY nation or group of people. If you kill Jews, you will feel the STING of the Jewish response. NEVER AGAIN.
The same goes for America. If the so-called "Islamic Fundamentalists" are so stupid, so ignorant, so inflamed with hatred that they will attempt to terrorize America and Israel BOTH, and invite retaliation from the two finest and most deadly military forces in existence, then so be it.
The autocratic, oligarch "Muslim Community" needs to get a grip on its radicals, quit supporting them militarily and financially, or suffer the dire consequences of their actions.
The opinion of certain segments of the so-called "World Community"(the same segments that bent-over and spread 'em for the Nazis in the 1930's) is as worthless as used toilet paper and about as welcome..........
Cabby
Gee...I wonder when the gypsies are going to claim to be gods "chosen people" and start a campaign of genocide somewhere in the world?
Will it be "OK" with you rabid right wing loons if they do?
After all, the nazis did the same thing to them....right? :rolleyes:
Your holocaust card is worn out, find something new to garner pity with.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Thats an insult to every resistance fighter tronski.
I seriously doubt they would want to be compared with a group that specifically targetted civilians as opposed to military targets.
If those suicide bombers were hitting military targets, then alls fair in love and war. But cafes? Pizza shops? Shopping malls?
The only real differnce between WW2 resistance fighters, and palestinian fighters are that the WW2 allied fighters weren't literally able to hit German civilian targets inside Germany. Plus they didnt need to, the allies were killing enough civilians everyday for them. The local cells kept their activites 'local'.
But don't think for a second they weren't capable of the butchery commited in the middle east.
1944, lead elements of Das Reich were sent to relive the garrison of Tulle France, under attack by communist partisans. When they arrived they found the bodies of 40 who had surrendered and were murdered and mutilated. Further on they discovered a medical unit. The wounded killed, and the medics (including nurses) tied to the vechiles and burned alive.
You think the jump between murdering "legitimate" military targets, and killing "legitimate" civilian targets is too far for these kind of people???
Tronski
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
If Israel`s intent was to kill them all,and take their land,they would have done it in 1967.And nobody would have said a word,even if they had bulldozed that damn mosk off the tempel-mount.
Great - the taliban bastard who gave the order to destroy the statues of Bamijan would agree with you.
Although I am not a muslim, I think that the golden mosque of jerusalem is one of the most beautiful historical and religious buildings and to hope that some idiots like the talibans should destroy it, is a shame.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
The only real differnce between WW2 resistance fighters, and palestinian fighters are that the WW2 allied fighters weren't literally able to hit German civilian targets inside Germany. Plus they didnt need to, the allies were killing enough civilians everyday for them. The local cells kept their activites 'local'.
But don't think for a second they weren't capable of the butchery commited in the middle east.
1944, lead elements of Das Reich were sent to relive the garrison of Tulle France, under attack by communist partisans. When they arrived they found the bodies of 40 who had surrendered and were murdered and mutilated. Further on they discovered a medical unit. The wounded killed, and the medics (including nurses) tied to the vechiles and burned alive.
You think the jump between murdering "legitimate" military targets, and killing "legitimate" civilian targets is too far for these kind of people???
Tronski
Just curious were did you read that ?
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Straffo, if you read the official investigation on what took place at Oradur sur Glane, you will find accounts on what took place before that. Its from the 1957 (I think it was 57) trial agains the Germans who were found guilty of the Oradur incident.
In short, regiment "Der Fuhrer" who was in the area under orders to move up north to the invasion beaches. The Marquis-resistance at the same time staged attacks in the area. They managed to rount the garrison in a couple of towns, and took over some towns completely. The countryside was also under partisan control.
Regarding Tulle:
I think it was a recon company from DF that recieved calls for help from the German garrison, and they managed to rout the french partisans. After the battle they found 40-something bodies, all German soldiers. They had all been shot, some where mutilated (genetalia cut off, eyes poked out etc).
The next day, on the road between Tulle and Oradour, the remains of an ambulance convoy was found. Wounded soldiers as well as the medical personnel had been murdered. They had torched the ambulances with wounded still inside.
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You cannot assume this unless it actually happened. Its wrong for you to say "yes the Resistance would have targeted German civilians if they could have". You are making a hell of a leap in assumptions and insulting some very brave people at the same time.
Originally posted by -tronski-
You think the jump between murdering "legitimate" military targets, and killing "legitimate" civilian targets is too far for these kind of people???
Tronski
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Straffo, if you read the official investigation on what took place at Oradur sur Glane, you will find accounts on what took place before that. Its from the 1957 (I think it was 57) trial agains the Germans who were found guilty of the Oradur incident.
In short, regiment "Der Fuhrer" who was in the area under orders to move up north to the invasion beaches. The Marquis-resistance at the same time staged attacks in the area. They managed to rount the garrison in a couple of towns, and took over some towns completely. The countryside was also under partisan control.
Regarding Tulle:
I think it was a recon company from DF that recieved calls for help from the German garrison, and they managed to rout the french partisans. After the battle they found 40-something bodies, all German soldiers. They had all been shot, some where mutilated (genetalia cut off, eyes poked out etc).
The next day, on the road between Tulle and Oradour, the remains of an ambulance convoy was found. Wounded soldiers as well as the medical personnel had been murdered. They had torched the ambulances with wounded still inside.
pfffffffffffff if you want a who started what thread ...
just read about the Vercors and you will know why they partisans reacted this way.
And I don't give toejam of those "soldier" able to kill 642 civilian without any remorse.
The worst part for me is that there was some alsacian in Der Lamer regiment.
There was no strategical/partisans asset in Oradour ... just an average redneck village ...
Btw you still don't have any news of Captain Kahn ?
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I'm not interested in a who started what thread at all...
We all know that Germany started wwii by invading Poland..we also all know that France declared war on Germany on sept 3rd 1939.
Over to your questions:
If you mean Hauptsturmfuhrer Kahn, the CO of 3./DF at the time, then no..I have no idea what happened to him.
Regarding Oradur's importance for the partisans...
what is your opinion of the former Maquis chief for the Dordogne, Rene Jugie who in 1952 confirmed that Oradour-sur-Glane had indeed been full of weapons and ammunition. It had been the supply center for all the towns and villages in the Dordogne?
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Sequence of events leading up to Oradour
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Lets take a look at early morning, June 8th 1944. Das Reich has just received orders to move from the Bordeaux region into the Tulle-Limoges area. At 0800 hours the main body of the division set out to the north from its assembly area near Bordeaux. SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 4 Der Fuehrer is the divisions lead element on the road march towards Tulle.
As the march progressed, DF received various reports of Maquis activity. Local German town and village commanders had set up roadblocks and checkpoints along the roads. The first resistance was met late in the afternoon when French civilians manned a roadblock and fired at the lead motorcycle platoon of 15./DF. They were quickly scattered. Brive, at the southernmost edge of the assembly area, was reached at 1830 hours. There the Division command group came forward, and joined the town commander. This man was in contact with LXVI Reserve Army Corps headquarters, to whom Das Reich commander SS-Brigadefuehrer Heinz Lammerding was scheduled to report. Lammerding did report, and was informed that III./95. Security Regiment was surrounded in Tulle by Maquis forces. Lammerding was ordered to free the unit.
The Das Reich recon unit, SS-Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 2, was sent towards Tulle under its commander SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Heinrich Wulf. It was fired upon briefly, half way to Tulle. It reached Tulle at 2100 hours, and secured the town in heavy fighting. Nine men of the unit were killed in action, while the III./95 was rescued. The Das Reich command group established itself in Tulle.
In the meantime, the main body of DF reached Limoges. They were warmly greeted by the garrison, since the town had been isolated, though not attacked, by Maquis for the past two days. DF headquarters was established in Limoges, and elements of the regiment spread out to occupy surrounding towns and villages during June 9.
In the early morning hours of June 10 the O1 (orderly officer) of SS-Panzerjaeger Abteilung 2 (the Das Reich antitank unit), SS-Obersturmfuehrer Gerlach, arrived in Limoges. He was exhausted, and clad only in his underwear. He had been sent out with six other men in three cars to find billets for his unit north of Limoges on the morning of June 9. His car had pulled ahead of the others, and was stopped by Maquis. He and his driver were taken prisoner, and had their clothing torn off. They were driven away in a French truck to be interrogated by a Maquis commander. Gerlach saw a sign announcing the town he was brought to as Oradour-sur-Glane. He was taken out of the truck in the town, and confronted with many armed civilians, including women. Soon, he was put back in the truck, and driven several kilometers into the country for execution. After being taken out of the truck again, Gerlach’s driver suddenly attacked the french guards. Gerlach used the opportunity to make a break, and was successful. Hours later he arrived in Limoges, and reported the Maquis activity in Oradour.
In the light of day on June 9, Das Reich took stock of the situation in Tulle. Forty men of III./95 were discovered dead near a school. They showed signs of execution, and local civilians reported the men had been killed after dropping their weapons and surrendering. Only an SD officer with them had a pistol in his hand. Most of the bodies were mutilated, some had had their genitals cut off and stuffed into their mouths. Others had been covered with excrement. One man had holes in his heels with a rope through them, and a ruined face, indicating that he had been tied to the back of a truck and driven around. Other bodies were found around town, bringing the total German dead to 64. The III./95 had reported 80 missing, meaning several were unaccounted for. And 9 more Germans died in rescuing the garrison, as mentioned before.
Also on June 9, Das Reich’s SPW (armored personnel carrier) abteilung, III./Der Fuehrer, was ordered by LXVI Reserve Army Corps to reoccupy the town of Gueret, 60 km from its present billeting area. Gueret had been captured by Maquis on June 7, and a German Army attack from the east on June 8 had failed to retake it. Now III./DF approached from the west. It accidentally skirmished with the German Army unit, which had just recaptured the town, and suffered several wounded. These were sent back towards Limoges in two SPW, which were overtaken on the way by III./DF commander SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Helmut Kaempfe alone at the wheel of his command car. He was driving ahead to meet with the mayor of a town along the route. A few minutes later the two SPW found Kaempfe’s car, deserted and still running. Kaempfe was gone, with no sign of a fight. The main body of III./DF left Gueret in Army hands and followed Kaempfe and the SPW back towards its billets. Upon reaching the car, it searched the surrounding area without finding any trace of Kaempfe or his apparent captors.
The two medical SPW arrived during the night in Limoges and reported Kaempfe’s disappearance. SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Otto Weidinger, serving in DF regimental headquarters, was sent back to Tulle to report the occurrence, with a motorcycle platoon as escort. The terrain was too broken up to allow radio communication. At about this time, Weidinger learned later, 62 additional Germans had been killed by the Maquis near Naves, 10 km south of Tulle. This brought the total German deaths in the area to at least 126, plus the nine SS men killed retaking Tulle.
In the early morning of June 10 Kaempfe’s identity papers were found in one of the main streets of Limoges. They seemed to indicate that Kaempfe had been driven through Limoges during the night. Later that morning I./DF commander SS-Sturmbannfuhrer Adolf Diekmann reported to regimental headquarters in Limoges from his billeting area in St. Junien, west of town. Two civilians had come to him, stating that a high ranking German officer was being held prisoner by the Maquis in Oradour-sur-Glane. The officer was to be ceremoniously executed and burned that evening by the staff of the Maquis headquarters there, in front of the people of the town, the majority of whom were cooperating with the partisans. Similar information had been gained by the SD office in Limoges from its agents, and it had reported this to Stadler just before Diekmann arrived.
Diekmann requested permission to drive with one of his companies to Oradour to try to free his friend, Kaempfe. Stadler agreed, stipulating that Diekmann was to negotiate for Kaempfe’s release if at all possible. He was only to occupy the town and use force as a last resort. He could take hostages to trade for Kaempfe if the officer could not be recovered otherwise. Stadler wanted Kaempfe kept alive, and was willing to take unusually lenient measures to make sure of this, because Kaempfe was his friend, an outstanding officer, and a valuable SPW specialist. Gerlach helped Diekmann interpret the maps of the area.
During the day the SD office put a captured Maquis officer at Stadler’s disposal. The man was released so that he could bring his comrades an offer. If Kaempfe was released unharmed, 30 additional captured Maquisards and 40,000 Francs would be turned over to the Maquis as ransom. The released man called once to say he had not yet met up with those holding Kaempfe; he was never heard from again. Afterwards, the Germans concluded that Kaempfe must have already been dead when the officer did establish contact with his fellows.
Diekmann reported back to Stadler late in the afternoon of June 10. He said he had driven with his 3./DF under SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Kahn to Oradour-sur-Glane. At the edge of Oradour 3./DF had found a German ambulance with two medics and four wounded men. The driver and the other medic had been chained to the steering wheel, and then they and the wounded had been burned alive.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I'm not interested in a who started what thread at all...
We all know that Germany started wwii by invading Poland..we also all know that France declared war on Germany on sept 3rd 1939.
Ok it's our fault just our fault.
Indirectly we commited the Shoa.
We are FULLY responsible of million of death.
Are you twisted or is it a bad for of humour ?
Over to your questions:
If you mean Hauptsturmfuhrer Kahn, the CO of 3./DF at the time, then no..I have no idea what happened to him.
He was last last seen in your country some people have searched him long without any success and are persuaded he was helped .
Regarding Oradur's importance for the partisans...
what is your opinion of the former Maquis chief for the Dordogne, Rene Jugie who in 1952 confirmed that Oradour-sur-Glane had indeed been full of weapons and ammunition. It had been the supply center for all the towns and villages in the Dordogne?
It was so full of weapon that the German were unable to find any.
Concerning the long and last part of you message , what were the Das Reich soldier expecting ?
Receiving flower ,wine and frech water from the civilian around ?
And I've to agree no French citizen even showed any sign of execution after being invited to have a cup of tea with those nice Gestapo/SS guys ...
no never ...
No partisans was ever showed to the population covered with toejam ... never ...
not even in Brive or Tulle ...
it never happened those soldier were so nice friendly and a word ADMIRABLE.
Frankly I don't care of those German soldier they got what they deserved PERIOD.
Especially the Das Reich soldier they were so fun , friendly and so on ...
In fact I've to admit they were doing tourism ...
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Originally posted by straffo
Ok it's our fault just our fault.
Indirectly we commited the Shoa.
We are FULLY responsible of million of death.
Are you twisted or is it a bad for of humour ?
[/b]
Uh…I just said that everyone knows who holds the blame for wwii.
btw..what is "the Shoa"?
He was last last seen in your country some people have searched him long without any success and are persuaded he was helped .
[/b]
In Sweden you mean? I actually did not know that. Although I know that after the war, one of the Nazi escape routes passed through Sweden. I doubt he's still here though. He's most probably in Syria or Argentina. Anyway, I hope he either comes forward or is found…he's probably the only one still alive (if he is still alive) who knows what happened that day.
It was so full of weapon that the German were unable to find any.
[/b]
Or did they... I've read first hand accounts describing an explosion before the fire in the church.
Concerning the long and last part of you message , what were the Das Reich soldier expecting ?
Receiving flower ,wine and frech water from the civilian around ?
[/b]
Probably not…what were the french partisans expecting? Bratwurst and Beer, together with some soft polka-music?
And I've to agree no French citizen even showed any sign of execution after being invited to have a cup of tea with those nice Gestapo/SS guys ...
no never ...
No partisans was ever showed to the population covered with toejam ... never ...
not even in Brive or Tulle ...
it never happened those soldier were so nice friendly and a word ADMIRABLE.
[/b]
Uh…I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.
Frankly I don't care of those German soldier they got what they deserved PERIOD.
Especially the Das Reich soldier they were so fun , friendly and so on ...
[/b]
Well, I guess we just see things differently then. In my opinion, no soldier, regardless of the color of his uniform, regardless of what he fights for, deserves to be tortured to death.
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Jeepers - someone's ideas of comparing WW2 resistance to suicide bombers is just obscene:(. "They couldn't physically go to Germany to attack German civilians". Are you saying they would? You're sick minded people. :eek:
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Uh…I just said that everyone knows who holds the blame for wwii.
btw..what is "the Shoa"?[/B]
Fek I'm lost ....
if you never heard of the shoa don't pretend you know history.
In Sweden you mean? I actually did not know that. Although I know that after the war, one of the Nazi escape routes passed through Sweden. I doubt he's still here though. He's most probably in Syria or Argentina. Anyway, I hope he either comes forward or is found…he's probably the only one still alive (if he is still alive) who knows what happened that day.
There was 6 survivor of this mass murderer. and they know what happened this day there is even 13 Alsacian of Das Reich who fully know what happened.
Or did they... I've read first hand accounts describing an explosion before the fire in the church.
Lot of things can explode from grenade ,explosives , gaz to alcohol
Uh…I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.
I'm saying that das reich bastard started by they own behaviour to show their barbaric mind.
Well, I guess we just see things differently then. In my opinion, no soldier, regardless of the color of his uniform, regardless of what he fights for, deserves to be tortured to death.
They got what they were doing BEFORE anything happened in Oradour sur Glane.
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Straffo, I'm not really sure how to understand most of your post.
"the Shoa" please tell me what that is. Perhaps it is called something else in English?
"There were 6 survivors from this mass murder"
Only one french civilian testified before the court in 1952. A mme Rouchfourde or something like that.
As for the 13 DF members...you are aware that they have versions of the sequence of events that differ from the official one right?
"Lot of things can explode from grenade ,explosives , gaz to alcohol"
Hmm..yes...so are you saying that there were alcohol in the bell tower?
Grenades explode yes, but they do not explode in a way that melts a bronze curch bell. Explosives can cause that, but 3./DF was a standard truck borne infantry company. Those did not have expolosives with them, explosives were only found with the pioneer units.
I dont think I'll comment on your other "remarks"
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Straffo, I'm not really sure how to understand most of your post.
"the Shoa" please tell me what that is. Perhaps it is called something else in English?
the shoah == the holocaust is that clearer ?
"There were 6 survivors from this mass murder"
Only one french civilian testified before the court in 1952. A mme Rouchfourde or something like that.
5 man and madame Rouffanche escaped at the start of the mass murder
As for the 13 DF members...you are aware that they have versions of the sequence of events that differ from the official one right?
They lied to save their bellybutton nothing more, as they recognised the fact later when "amnistied" (spelling ?)
"Lot of things can explode from grenade ,explosives , gaz to alcohol"
Hmm..yes...so are you saying that there were alcohol in the bell tower?
Grenades explode yes, but they do not explode in a way that melts a bronze curch bell. Explosives can cause that, but 3./DF was a standard truck borne infantry company. Those did not have expolosives with them, explosives were only found with the pioneer units.
During the trial the German officier said that they put THEMSELVES the explosive in the church in fact it was not supposed to explode just release gaz to kill the people in the church.
I dont think I'll comment on your other "remarks"
You say that the partisan murdered 40 poor german soldier ... forgiving the 70 partisan "crunched' by German panzer the day before.
btw I've first hand information on this crime part of my familly is from this region and yes they were involved in those barbaric act against those lovely SS soldiers.
search about Saint-Sixte now.
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Originally posted by straffo
the shoah == the holocaust is that clearer ?
[/b]
Yup..perfectly clear. Just out of curiosity, why did you call it "the Shoa", and not "the Holocaust"?
They lied to save their bellybutton nothing more, as they recognised the fact later when "amnistied" (spelling ?)
[/b]
Never mind your spelling, Im more interested in your sources.
During the trial the German officier said that they put THEMSELVES the explosive in the church in fact it was not supposed to explode just release gaz to kill the people in the church.
[/b]
1. What German officer?
2. The German unit did not have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts.
3. That German officer appears to have slept during his physics classes... "the explosives were supposed to release gas"??
You say that the partisan murdered 40 poor german soldier ... forgiving the 70 partisan "crunched' by German panzer the day before.
[/b]
You have your numbers all screwed up. I said that partisans tortured and killed 126 German prisoners and killed 9 German soldiers in combat. After Tulle was recaptured by the Germans, an SD unit moved in and shot 98 french civilians "as retaliation".
btw I've first hand information on this crime part of my familly is from this region and yes they were involved in those barbaric act against those lovely SS soldiers.
[/b]
I pity any man who takes pride in the murder and torture of prisoners. As I said..no matter what the color of their uniform.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Yup..perfectly clear. Just out of curiosity, why did you call it "the Shoa", and not "the Holocaust"?
Because as I'm part Jew and we call it like that in my familly.
Never mind your spelling, Im more interested in your sources.
Just learn french and have a trip to Oradour sur Glane all is availlable here. From trial resume and to audio / video testimony .
1. What German officer?
2. The German unit did not have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts.
3. That German officer appears to have slept during his physics classes... "the explosives were supposed to release gas"??
I was not clear ,it was supposed to release gaz but as you said they were sleeping during classes it exploded without killing people so they gunned all the people in the church.
You have your numbers all screwed up. I said that partisans tortured and killed 126 German prisoners and killed 9 German soldiers in combat. After Tulle was recaptured by the Germans, an SD unit moved in and shot 98 french civilians "as retaliation".
They were 99 and were hanged and the woman were "étripées" (their belly were open) ALIVE
I pity any man who takes pride in the murder and torture of prisoners. As I said..no matter what the color of their uniform.
Prisoner this kind of scum ?
You're jocking ?
We are no speaking of Wechmacht soldier but of SS-Butcher .
Lockup wath the das Reich division has done in Belgrade ...
When facing vermin I don't have philosofical debate : I shot back PERIOD.
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Yer a racist POS Cabby; look at the Palestinian bodycount compared to the Israeli one - you think they were all terrorists that the IDF killed? But nah, you don't give a crap about dead muslims as long as your precious westernised Israeli's are still kicking bellybutton right?
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Is Shoa the jewish word for the Holocaust?
Originally posted by straffo
Just learn french and have a trip to Oradour sur Glane all is availlable here. From trial resume and to audio / video testimony .
[/b]
Yeah...
I was not clear ,it was supposed to release gaz but as you said they were sleeping during classes it exploded without killing people so they gunned all the people in the church.
[/b]
1. What German officer?
2. The German unit did not have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts.
3. Where do you get these rediculous ideas?
They were 99 and were hanged and the woman were "étripées" (their belly were open) ALIVE
[/b]
No...they were 98..all men. At first the Germans rounded up 120 men in the village, then they let a few go because of their age, 98 was shot. No women were killed by the Germans that day, none were etrepee:d alive. (I have no idea where you get your information from, but it is flawed. And it bears striking resemblance with 1940-50:s propaganda
Prisoner this kind of scum ?
You're jocking ?
We are no speaking of Wechmacht soldier but of SS-Butcher .
Lockup wath the das Reich division has done in Belgrade ...
When facing vermin I don't have philosofical debate : I shot back PERIOD.
[/b]
Yes, prisoners.
No, Im not joking.
Yes they were Waffen SS soldiers.
The Das Reich division did not exist when Belgrade was captured in 1941, back then it was called SS-REICH. And please do tell me what they did. I thought it was the Luftwaffe were the ones who bombed Belgrade to bits.
If you have an unarmed prisoner infront of you, and you shoot him. How can you say that you shot "back"?
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Oh and another thing Cabby, european antisemitism was a largely a product of right wing fundy christian types such as yourself; oh hang on you're of Spanish extraction as well aren't you? Guess chances are your forefathers were experts at forcible conversions and the Auto da fe, right?
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Is Shoa the jewish word for the Holocaust?
Now why in hell would THAT be of any significance?
Tell me Hortlund......did the Germans commit ANY war crimes?
Look at the wording in your posts......"The DF were going to RELIEVE a garrison in" ......THEY WERE A FREAKING INVASION FORCE! Why would you stoop to apologize for this type of behavior? If someone invades your Country I hope you make sure you kill them in the nicest way possible.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Now why in hell would THAT be of any significance?
Tell me Hortlund......did the Germans commit ANY war crimes?
Look at the wording in your posts......"The DF were going to RELIEVE a garrison in" ......THEY WERE A FREAKING INVASION FORCE! Why would you stoop to apologize for this type of behavior? If someone invades your Country I hope you make sure you kill them in the nicest way possible.
Uh...
I am really sorry if I have offended you with my question about what Shoa meant. Trust me, I did not intend to offend anyone with it, and quite franky, I had no idea that the question could be offensive. He used a word I had never heard before, and I just asked him what it meant.
Why do you come down on me like this? Its like you have a gigantic spike up your gazoo.
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Over to the other part of your post.
Yes, the Germans committed war crimes, lots of them in fact.
Can you please point out a quote of mine where I have "apologized" for any such crime?
And you are wrong. In 1944 DF was not an invasion force, that would have been correct in 1940. In 1944 it was an occupying force. And to sit and nit-pick at the phrasing in my posts is really rediculous. I have tried to describe what happened in the area between June 8-12 1944. To do this I have quoted parts of the war diary of div Das Reich. If that division was ordered to relieve a garrison, I fail to see why this should strike you as odd in any way.
Are you perhaps of the opinion that I should have added some PC flavour to the quotes? Ok, let me try it..
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Scene at the command post of regiment Der Fuhrer on June 8th 1944.
CO enters from left -"Heil my vile comrades in horrible crimes"
Group of men -"Heil our most outrageously evil leader and truppenfuhrer"
CO points to map -"We are out of luck, my evil brethren. The brave french freedom fighters...curses to their names.."
Group of men -"Curses to their names"
CO -"they have liberated most of the beautiful mideval town of Tulle, and surrounded most of our nazi occupying murderous Gertapo force there."
Group of men -"Oh..woe is us. WOE IS US. While we know that we are the evil wrongdoers, and while we know that our cause is unjust and black, we still want to keep control over that beautiful mideval town for just a little while longer. This so our horribly evil leather clad Gestapo leaders can spread their foul stench over the countryside"
Man nr 1 starts to cry -"What are we to do, what are we TO DO...woe is US".
all of the men starts to cry
CO -"Now now men. Calm down. We still might have a bratwurst or two up our sleeve"
Group of men looks up on CO -"How, when, why..is it possible? We cannot possibly fight agains the superheroic french brave ultra handsome freedom fighters who never does anything wrong"
CO scupcake -"yes, we still have our horribly evil panzers, that we use to enforce our incredibly evil ways upon the brave french peasants."
Group of men -"OUR PANZERS--they will save the day"
CO -"Yes, donner und blitzen, lets get our panzers rolling, and head to Tulle"
Group of men -"Yeayyy horayy for our panzers"
CO -"Lets get down to business men...and since we are all incredibly evil and horrible..lets make sure that we run over as many flowers as poissible on the way to Tulle"
Man nr 3 picks up a drum and starts to play
Man nr 1 starts to sing -"We are the evil wrongdoers, and we are black as coal"
Group of men {s we are black as coal"
Man nr 2 singing -"we hate everything that is good and just, because we are black as coal"
Group of men -"yes we are black as coal"
Man nr 1 singing -"Lets go to our dirty business, and let us destroy everything in our path, because we are black as coal"
Group of men -"yes we are black as coal"
CO clibs into his tank, singing as they pull away and head for Tulle. Suddenly he spots a flower on the side of the road. He quickly turns his little tank to run it over
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Occupying force or invasion force? Why nitpick. Both were fair targets. Frankly, hats off to the French partisans who had the balls to take up arms against the Germans in WW2. The Gestapo made very sure the price of capture/failure was exceedingly painful. I'm not sure I could have done it.
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ROFL...I surrender...about choked on your "PC" interpretation, very funny.
and I apologize for misinterpreting your wording as if it were supportive of the Nazi's...your not...right?
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Hort:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-263660,00.html
For 6 years of war, thousands of example of German Army brutality have been documented. They were NOT nice folks, OK ?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
ROFL...I surrender...about choked on your "PC" interpretation, very funny.
and I apologize for misinterpreting your wording as if it were supportive of the Nazi's...your not...right?
Of cource I'm not :)
IMO it is not possible to be supportive of them and have an IQ above 15.
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Originally posted by fd ski
Hort:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-263660,00.html
For 6 years of war, thousands of example of German Army brutality have been documented. They were NOT nice folks, OK ?
I know...
In fact..(and this might come as a suprise to you, so please dont take this as critizism to your educational skills) I knew that even before you posted that link.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Is Shoa the jewish word for the Holocaust?
I don't know I never spoke nor learn hebrew.
1. What German officer?
2. The German unit did not have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts.
3. Where do you get these rediculous ideas?
From the 1953 trial.
No...they were 98..all men. At first the Germans rounded up 120 men in the village, then they let a few go because of their age, 98 was shot. No women were killed by the Germans that day, none were etrepee:d alive. (I have no idea where you get your information from, but it is flawed. And it bears striking resemblance with 1940-50:s propaganda
After your trip to Oradour sur Glane feel free to visit Sainte Sixte you will learn lot of things concerning the behaviour of das reich soldier.
And yes some woman were raped and killed by das reich barbares like they used to do in East Front.
Yes, prisoners.
No, Im not joking.
Yes they were Waffen SS soldiers.
The Das Reich division did not exist when Belgrade was captured in 1941, back then it was called SS-REICH. And please do tell me what they did. I thought it was the Luftwaffe were the ones who bombed Belgrade to bits.
If you have an unarmed prisoner infront of you, and you shoot him. How can you say that you shot "back"?
I still stand behind my word I would have shot them dead in the instant.
It doesn't apply to the whole wechmacht.
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I've done some research on the web and what I find strange is the fact that all the argument you used were on some neo-nazis page included the error on the date of the Bordeau trial 1953 and not 1957 like you wrote.
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Originally posted by straffo
From the 1953 trial.
Sorry...but that just wont cut it. I have read those documents and I dont remember reading what you claim was said. So Ill ask again
1. What German officer?
2. Did the German unit have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts?
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Originally posted by straffo
I've done some research on the web and what I find strange is the fact that all the argument you used were on some neo-nazis page included the error on the date of the Bordeau trial 1953 and not 1957 like you wrote.
Oh really...
Well, did the site say anything about the 99 women that had their stomaches cut open in Tulle?
Answer my questions above.
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it was not in tulle but in Sainte Sixte and it was not 99 woman.
Are you trying disinformation now ?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Sorry...but that just wont cut it. I have read those documents and I dont remember reading what you claim was said. So Ill ask again
1. What German officer?
2. Did the German unit have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts?
You are saying that you have read more than hundred Kilo of document wrote in a juridic French that less than 1% of the native French can read?
BS
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Originally posted by straffo
You are saying that you have read more than hundred Kilo of document wrote in a juridic French that less than 1% of the native French can read?
BS
Obviously I havent read them in original. And obviously I dont speak french. What I meant was that I have read the sentences, the verdicts, what the "court" decided had happened.
But please, just answer my 2 questions...
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Originally posted by -lynx-
Jeepers - someone's ideas of comparing WW2 resistance to suicide bombers is just obscene:(. "They couldn't physically go to Germany to attack German civilians". Are you saying they would? You're sick minded people. :eek:
My point was literally, one mans resistance fighter is another mans murderer. It's all about context.
To the french, the marquis were heroes, to the Germans they were murderers to be exterminated.
ie. A palestinian gunmen is a hero to the palestinian people, but to the Isrealis he's a terrorist. You can replace all these examples with all sorts of groups..the Tamil tigers, IRA etc.
As to the thought that the various resistance groups would somehow have the moral fortitude NOT to target german civilians are kidding themselves. The allies were quite capable of bombing 25,000/50,000/etc etc - the russians raped and murdered their way into Berlin, what would disuade the resistance killing a few boche given the chance especailly given the price the French payed for their activities? The resistance was quite able and willing to settle scores with french collaborators after liberation.
And what else I postulated, that the local resistance cell just wouldn't have the capability to strike German cities (unlike palestinian bombers) is a perfectly reasonable thing.
Tronsky
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My point was literally, one mans resistance fighter is another mans murderer. It's all about context.
To the french, the marquis were heroes, to the Germans they were murderers to be exterminated.
ie. A palestinian gunmen is a hero to the palestinian people, but to the Isrealis he's a terrorist. You can replace all these examples with all sorts of groups..the Tamil tigers, IRA etc.
While true to the extent that SOMEONE will see a terrorist as a freedom fighter, I think this is an over (perhaps under) simplification. I think that in most of these cases reasonable third parties can look at the situation and see a clear difference between terrorist and freedom fighter. Blowing up babies AS A PARTICULAR SOUGHT OUT TARGET is terrorism.......period.
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Could you two continue your conversation by e-mail please?
uups, this was for Hortlund and Straffo...
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..OR you could just not open this thread in the future if it bothers you that much?
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Originally posted by Staga
Could you two continue your conversation by e-mail please?
uups, this was for Hortlund and Straffo...
This conversation is going nowhere I won't post more .
Concerning the 2 question you just have to wait 2053.
I glad you are concerned by what happened to the nazi but don't bother of the civilian.
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<- Trying to hijack this thread back to middle east...
So what happened in Ramallah: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1925000/1925760.stm
And in Jenin...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1924000/1924933.stm
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Independent News:
Amid the ruins of Jenin, the grisly evidence of a war crime.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=285413
A monstrous war crime that Israel has tried to cover up for a fortnight has finally been exposed. Its troops have caused devastation in the centre of the Jenin refugee camp, reached yesterday by The Independent, where thousands of people are still living amid the ruins.
A residential area roughly 160,000 square yards about a third of a mile wide has been reduced to dust. Rubble has been shovelled by bulldozers into 30ft piles. The sweet and ghastly reek of rotting human bodies is everywhere, evidence that it is a human tomb. The people, who spent days hiding in basements crowded into single rooms as the rockets pounded in, say there are hundreds of corpses, entombed beneath the dust, under a field of debris, criss-crossed with tank and bulldozer treadmarks.
In one nearby half-wrecked building, gutted by fire, lies the fly-blown corpse of a man covered by a tartan rug. In another we found the remains of 23-year-old Ashraf Abu Hejar beneath the ruins of a fire-blackened room that collapsed on him after being hit by a rocket. His head is shrunken and blackened. In a third, five long-dead men lay under blankets.
A quiet. sad-looking young man called Kamal Anis led us across the wasteland, littered now with detritus of what were once households, foam rubber, torn clothes, shoes, tin cans, children's toys. He suddenly stopped. This was a mass grave, he said, pointing.
We stared at a mound of debris. Here, he said, he saw the Israeli soldiers pile 30 bodies beneath a half-wrecked house. When the pile was complete, they bulldozed the building, bringing its ruins down on the corpses. Then they flattened the area with a tank. We could not see the bodies. But we could smell them.
A few days ago, we might not have believed Kamal Anis. But the descriptions given by the many other refugees who escaped from Jenin camp were understated, not, as many feared and Israel encouraged us to believe, exaggerations. Their stories had not prepared me for what I saw yesterday. I believe them now.
Until two weeks ago, there were several hundred tightly-packed homes in this neighbourhood called Hanat al-Hawashim. They no longer exist.
Around the central ruins, there are many hundreds of half-wrecked homes. Much of the camp – once home to 15,000 Palestinian refugees from the 1948 war – is falling down. Every wall is speckled and torn with bullet holes and shrapnel, testimony of the awesome, random firepower of Cobra and Apache helicopters that hovered over the camp.
Building after building has been torn apart, their contents of cheap fake furnishings, mattresses, white plastic chairs spewed out into the road. Every other building bears the giant, charred, impact mark of a helicopter missile. Last night there were still many families and weeping children still living amid the ruins, cut off from the humanitarian aid. Ominously, we found no wounded, although there was a report of a man being rescued from beneath ruins only an hour before we arrived.
Those who did not flee the camp, or not detained by the army, have spent the bombardment in basements, enduring day after day of terror. Some were forced into rooms by the soldiers, who smashed their way into houses through the walls. The UN says half of the camp's 15,000 residents were under 18. As the evening hush fell over these killing fields, we could suddenly hear the children chattering. The mosques, once so noisy at prayer time, were silent.
Israel was still trying to conceal these scenes yesterday. It had refused entry to Red Cross ambulances for nearly a week, in violation of the Geneva Convention. Yesterday it continued to try to keep us out.
Jenin, in the northern end of the occupied West Bank, remained "a closed military zone", was ringed Merkava tanks, army Jeep patrols, and armoured personnel carriers. Reporters caught trying to get in were escorted out. A day earlier the Israeli armed forces took in a few selected journalists to see sanitised parts of the camp. We simply walked across the fields, flitted through an olive orchard overlooked by two Israeli tanks, and into the camp itself.
We were led in by hands gesturing at windows. Hidden, whispering people directed us through narrow alleys they thought were clear. When there were soldiers about, a finger would raise in warning, or a hand waved us back. We were welcomed by people desperate to tell what had occurred. They spoke of executions, and bulldozers wrecking homes with people inside. "This is mass murder committed by Ariel Sharon," Jamel Saleh, 43, said. "We feel more hate for Israel now than ever. Look at this boy." He placed his hand on the tousled head of a little boy, Mohammed, the eight-year-old son of a friend. "He saw all this evil. He will remember it all." So will everyone else who saw the horror of Jenin refugee camp. Palestinians who entered the camp yesterday were almost speechless.
Rajib Ahmed, from the Palestinian Energy Authority, came to try to repair the power lines. He was trembling with fury and shock. "This is mass murder. I have come here to help by I have found nothing but devastation. Just look for yourself." All had the same message: tell the world.
I'd like to see more about this case before makeing any conclusions.
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War Crimes?!
Let's see...the people who kill your people are hiding in the middle of these so called civillians and the inocent people won't give them up.
What do you do?
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Let's see...the people who kill your people are hiding in the middle of these so called civillians and the inocent people won't give them up.
What do you do?
Shell, rocket and machinegun the entire settlement anyway?
Wait a minute, didn't those Russians do a similar thing to Grozny a few years ago and get similar condemnation?
So which part of the article do you have a problem with?
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Shell, rocket and machinegun the entire settlement anyway?
Wait a minute, didn't those Russians do a similar thing to Grozny a few years ago and get similar condemnation?
If you really want to get those [rebels | freedom fighters | terrorists] there are two most commonly used ways these days :
1. Like Israelis did it. Yes, it is somewhat close to Grozny, Berlin ('45),...
2. Send B52s (if it doesn't work send in your troops)
True, so far there are no examples of tactics #2 in populated areas/cities. It worked in Yugoslavia but mostly because other side decided not to fight.
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I have a problem with the whole article! It's very one sided plus it makes it sound like everyone there is innocent.
I believe this article as much as I would one written by an Israel reporter.
I'm sure people were killed and some innocent people were among them but this does not make the Israeli people war criminals.
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Well it did work with Serbs?
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btw I think Israeli people are not war-criminals but I'm quite sure few officers and politics are; just like few palestinian aggressors too.
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Non Isreali palestinians cannot be war criminals as they belong to no military . They're just criminals .