Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jmccaul on November 03, 1999, 01:31:00 PM
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First a question 2 planes start off exactly 180 degrees apart with equal energy states and they are turning in the vertical (i.e. Looping) one plane has better turning performance one has a better climb rate which will gain angles? Obviously it depends on a combination of both oh these but which is a more important factor what are the other factors in why one plane would gain angles and the other wouldn't (i.e. Energy retention )
Second I will make a suggestion. Add a plane to the set which will out turn the spit. The spit 9 is an excellent dogfighter (not just 1 v1 co-alt but at a disadvantage or advantage and in multi-plane environments ) It's turning ability combined with excellent climb rate, good top speed, excellent acceleration, energy retention and it's forgiving flight characteristics (don't underestimate the fact it is easy to fly as it helps so much when things get hairy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) All these make the spit arguably the best dogfighter of the war. Adding a plane which will out turn the spit will give us spit drivers a little more to think about in the arena which can only be a good thing.
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Good sustained climb might not make a plane great zoom climber. Zoom climb is something what the ( pre- ) merge climb that will eventually end up in a 'loop' ( reversal ) of some sort is.
FWIW, it's more important to go higher ( reverse down later ) than the enemy in the zoom than to gain angles on him.
//fats
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Hmm i seem to outurn the spit in the vert, flat and oblique.While flying the NIKI that is. My favorite situation in AH is a Spit driver that chooses to engage me in a sustained turn fight on any plane. As speeds come down, NIKI begins to gain decisive turn radius adv.Is anyone seeing this differently than i?
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Bytor,
You might of been trying to gain altitude at the same time, but I was comming around on your N1K1 in my Spit pretty readily. We were alone and in a low alt situation. Another few seconds, but......
......remember I ran out of fuel and showed you my ability of being a turf master?
Keeping on the edge of a stall horn in a spit seems to work turning with a N1K1. Sometimes I do actually win.
I have not done this enough to perform an analysis of the performance issue, I'm just relating an experience.
You are good in your N1K1 though!
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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I don't seem to have any problem out turning the N1K2 in the horizontal and haven't yet been in a sustained verticle turn eith one.
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Fats i was more talking off planes actually looping round each other as tight as possible and i was wondering what was a better advantage climb rate or turn performance rather than an alt-grabbing immelman but i suppose your comment on zoom rather sustained climb is still valid.
Do you know what the comparitve zoom ability of the planes in this paticular set ?
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"First a question 2 planes start off exactly 180 degrees apart with equal energy states and they are turning in the vertical (i.e. Looping) one plane has better turning performance one has a better climb rate which will gain angles? Obviously it depends on a combination of both oh these but which is a more important factor what are the other factors in why one plane would gain angles and the other wouldn't (i.e. Energy retention )"
Have to make a few asumptions.
1. Both go pure vert at the merge
2. Both begin the pull up at the same time
In that situation the better turning plane could complete his conversion to the vertical, and be in a firing position on the better climber (move in behind/under), thus gaining angles. If they had identical E states then the better turning plane (less wing-loading generally) will retain enough E to stay within the guns envelope. The better climber is dead if the turner can shoot straight.
val
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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death
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jmccaul-
I do not by any means think the spit is an "uber-plane"... competent 51, 109, N1K2 and La5N pilots will give a spit fits when flown properly. I'm flying the La5N almost exclusively, and don't find the spits any more difficult than anything else.
Furthermore, AH cannot deliver a/c that didn't exist; the Spit was a TnB plane with few peers. What plane do you feel we need? No sarcasm intended, an open mind here...
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Firstly, I fly the 109 coz it's a great climber, has great acceleration and top speed.
My experience in AH so far is that most Spits will HO and do flat turns on the merge so I rarely get to test a verticle on verticle fight with a spit.
The rare occasions that I do have to vert fight with a spit, the climb on the 109 usually nullifies the spits' climb after a couple of merges. It's pretty tough though coz you really need to control the stalls to keep E on the spits and George.
Ex
Great Mysteries: Why do Spits love to HO when they can out turn all other planes in the arena?..<flame retardent suit on> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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First Spits are relativly easy to fly and are very compotent in most important areas for dogfighting therefore newer lesser skilled players will gravitate towards it (my self included (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) - Although i do try and avoid head ons and always go vert after the merge providing i have the e). A good pilot will always beat a bad one. A well flown spit is always dangerous as it will always have an advantage in a vital area and be very competive in most others. It can both energy fight and TnB. With the introduction of a better turning plane (e.g. A6M5 ) you will force more spit flyers to learn energy fighting and that will stand them in good stead if they try the 109, p51 etc.
P.S Extreme it also amazes me how many people flat turn after the merge not just spits though, thats coming from a WB h2h (ladder) background where flat turns after merge are suicide.
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In case you only want to get as much angles then turn rate is more important. You prolly won't be able to follow the better climbing ( zoom ) plane after the first shot though.
Dunno about the zooms, haven't tested any of the planes at all. It is almost sad how _few_ people use a vertical merge - which is simply the best merge tactic there is. One guy with seemingly several years of on-line flitesim playing said I wasn't 'engaging' when I went vertical and didn't bore in for a direct HO shoot out...
//fats
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Thanks fats.
-kier- I wasn't really suggesting the spit was vastly superior to the other plane I was really just extoling it's virtues to illustrate the fact a better turning plane would help the arena dynamic hopefully making spit pilots fly a little smarter. I believe all planes in the set are competitive enough to let the better combination of pilot and e state be a deciding factor. Personally i perfer the spit because it suits my style and allows me to switch from e fighting to TnB and in any situation it will have a competitve edge in at least one important area over the aggressor which exploited properly will win you the fight. I am not saying the spit is the definitive "best" fighter, that depends on your style. Why do you choose the La5 ? Just curious as i am not to sure of that plane's particular strengths and weaknesses.
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In order to take advantage of better climb performance you have to fly straight at an optimal angle. Once you start turning, wether vertically or horisontally, the climb performance becomes irrelevant.
miko--
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Do you know what the comparitve zoom ability of the planes in this paticular set ?
Go to www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm (http://www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm) and look at the 'Aircraft' pages.
Still under construction but zoom climb, sustained climb, roll rate, acceleration and max speed data is available.
BTW, anyone who can tell me how to scientifically calculate corner and sustained turn rates and G loading??? I'd prefer not to do it simply by flight testing.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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Going pure vert. at the merge is a waste of lift vector. Take it 15-20* off the vertical and put the lift vector to work for you getting the nose up and around.
A little oblique goes a long way.
val
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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death
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one thing (actualy 2) are being overlooked with the question at hand....
whats the alt that this fight is going to happen?
they going to turn completely in the vertical or go partialy with a banked climb?
hmm make it 3. what planes exactly are you talking about?
if you know how your plane AND the enemies plane better then he does you pretty much have the battle licked. btw its not always who has angles first... I've won a few buy letting them "peek" at my tail and watch them stretch for the turn and bleeding what E they had left.
when I fought my CO for example I bleed him of his E and then it was a matter od time... it got to the deck (wondering who was going to dip thier wing in the water first) 25 minutes letting him pull hard for bad snap shots and I was able to pull around when he was forced to go strait or take a dive.
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jmccaul-
I like the La5NF because it is fast, has good climb, rolls well... and it is different! Just something odd about me, but I like to master the odd plane, the one few others like. It won't outturn a co-E Spit or N1K2, it can't outrun a P51 or ME109, but it fits well in between all of them. You have to think to live, and I like that!
As an example, I had a sortie last night where I went deep into the badlands. I bagged a Spit, but blew too much fuel and ammo in the process. I decided it was a good thing to live through a sortie, so I broke for home.
I was low, and without fuel for an extended climb,I decided the best option was to run the canyon floor. Maybe, just maybe nothing would see me.
It almost worked. I was about halfway through when the Spit's icon appeared. I tried to duck behind a wall, but it was too late. He began to set up his inevitable run on me. I had no choice but to keep going and wait.
1.8, 1.6, 1.3... he's coming fast! I hugged the canyon wall tighter, trying to turn corners just quick enough to spoil his aim. I turned a final corner, saw a drop he couldn't yet see, and went for it. I dropped flaps and gear, and pushed down. He overshot. He didn't have room to flat turn, so he had to go up... if he went level I had him. He worked up and around for another pass, and by this time he was joined by a P51. He came again, we repeated the scene again, and I managed to pump some of my few precious remaining rounds his way. I looked in time to see the 51 barrelling down- scissors and his run is spoiled.
We break free of the canyon, and it's a long way to the field. I decide to fight to the death, so I turn into the Spit. He breaks upward for alt, I get another snapshot. I reverse quickly, knowing the 51 is right there, and sure enough, here he comes. A little scissor, and he tries to roll for a split-S... no alt! He disappears... I don't know if he discoed or what, but there was no kill message. It's now just me and the Spit, and finally I see dots coming from the friendly field. The Spit has had enough, he breaks for home.
....sputtering engine, engine dies from fuel starvation! I ditch (seems like I always do!), and hail my opponent, thanking him for a great fight. It was a blast!
With a great field of vision, speed, and handling characteristics, I feel the La5NF is a great a/c. I do wish it had a couple mg's, but... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Val:
Banking the plane is waste of lift vector. You will not get as much force into the positive direction of world Y vector. When you go pure vert you have 2 places where you 'turn' when you are perfectly nose up ( to get out of plane - making the possible shot for the other person harder ) and the second time when you're perfectly nose down ( to get back in on enemy's six-to-twelve line ) - by rolling. When you decide to go pure vertical, it's not about how _fast_ you can get around. It's about how high can you zoom and how _late_ you can get around. If your low gain on angles gives the other person reason to start yanking even harder the better.
Now eagl will argue that chandelle is a more energy saving maneuver. I haven't been able to fit one into a merge w/o making it into a d20 'extension' or something. Only time pure vert is wasting lift is when you're upside down, and that is as I recall why eagl thought chandelle was better... well we had this discussion briefly online at around 1.05 or something so I can't recall it too good.
//fats
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FATS:
Pure vert puts your lift vector horizontal to the ground. Only velocity and kinetic E carry you up. Thus you are not generating lift, and burning E at the same time. An oblique vertical climb adds a vertical element to the lift vector as well as a rotational one (even a couple of degrees is better than nothing). Combined with a lead turn you will come around and crawl up the vertical zoomers six.
Ever wonder how some of those Spits in brand W can reverse and climb up a 109s six at the merge? :-P
The original premise was a Co-E state at the merge. In that situation an oblique vertical move is very lethal. Even if you are not in guns range you are deep in the rear hemisphere of the con, and gain massive angles. Remember most fights are won and lost on the first merge.
val
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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death