Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wsnpr on April 10, 2002, 11:48:19 PM
-
The State sponsored terrorism by Israel under the guise or 'self defence' is no excuse. Sharon and the Israeli leadership are not interested in peace short of a Greater Israel and buffer zone. Period. All Sharon is insuring is the future continued attacks against Israelis by desperate Palestinian people (mainly those who have lost innocent family and friends from Israeli Military attacks, so called collateral casualties) who no longer have hope of self determination. Hatred and killing breeds more hatred and killing. So, who is retaliating against who?
Oh BTW, we all can name the many things we have done to support Israel. Name anything that we have done to help the Palestinians since 1948. Maybe then you'll understand why we aren't regarded too highly by the Palestinians.
-
another terrorist lover :rolleyes:
smile now when they blow up a mall, building, school in your town
-
Eagler you're funny guy: If someone is against violence and doesn't share your point of view he/she is a Terrorist lover?
-
Originally posted by Staga
Eagler you're funny guy: If someone is against violence and doesn't share your point of view he/she is a Terrorist lover?
If someone is against violence, I don't see how he could be terribly sympathetic to the Palestinians.
- oldman
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
If someone is against violence, I don't see how he could be terribly sympathetic to the Palestinians.
- oldman
Because (I know it's hard to believe) there is innocent on both side of this conflict.
-
Originally posted by wsnpr
The State sponsored terrorism by Israel under the guise or 'self defence' is no excuse. Sharon and the Israeli leadership are not interested in peace short of a Greater Israel and buffer zone. Period. All Sharon is insuring is the future continued attacks against Israelis by desperate Palestinian people (mainly those who have lost innocent family and friends from Israeli Military attacks, so called collateral casualties) who no longer have hope of self determination. Hatred and killing breeds more hatred and killing. So, who is retaliating against who?
Oh BTW, we all can name the many things we have done to support Israel. Name anything that we have done to help the Palestinians since 1948. Maybe then you'll understand why we aren't regarded too highly by the Palestinians.
So what college are you attending? Berkely seems quite active these days in anti-semetism.
-
Don't be so obtuse Ripsnort. Criticising Israel doesn't neccessarily make you an anti-semite.
-
illustrates another issue in the world:
too much gray area .. most things ARE black or white - we just merge them into gray to make it easier on ourselves
-
So what college are you attending? Berkely seems quite active these days in anti-semetism.
Ripsnort
What a load of crap. And what an easy way to negate someone's position without actually having to counter the points it raises. It's cheap, weak and insulting. I don't like Israel's policies, and make my position known, but I'm not an anti-Semite. I don't like the PRC's treatment of its people and it's ambition towards Taiwan -- but I'm not a bigot who hates Asians.
My wife is Jewish, I was married by a Rabbi (very reformed, obviously), I had Jewish friends before I met my wife and probably socialize with more Jews on a regular basis than you have met. There are American Jews and Israeli Jews who see a path to peace that is quite different than the path that Sharon is following -- I guess they are anti-Semites as well.
And yes Eagler, the world needs to be more black and white. Gun ownership, for example. I own guns and like shooting, but in the black and white world of a great many Americans they are clearly the source of the nation's crime and violence and need to be eliminated. It all kind of depends on whose black and white we are talking about.
Terrorism is wrong, but the root cause isn't going to change any time soon without some serious concession on BOTH sides. Zionism is a reality, openly acknowledged by its supporters as being god's will. I also don't see much difference between a suicide bomber and a 105mm tank round fired casually in the general area a terrorist operated. Frankly, I don't believe Sharon is interested in Peace, for reasons I, and others, have posted in the past. Hell, a right-wing Israeli assassinated the last Israeli leader who was.
It is a bloody frekin mess, highlighted by shades of red, that requires a real solution to finally end. IMO a real solution involves treating each side equally, because that is the only way long-term peace can occur. Israel is here to stay, which is accepted grudgingly by moderate Arabs. But so are the Palestinians.
Charon
-
Bringing indiscriminate killing on themselves? so that makes it acceptable? No, sorry, Eagler's right. It's black and white. Suicide bombings are wrong.
Killing Palestinians indiscriminately is wrong (as is gunning down kids who throw rocks).
I don't support the actions of either side in this, and don't have a shred of respect for either nations' leadership.
-
Nifty, I agree. My point was, and I think it's in line with yours, that seeing this as a black and white issue with the Israelis being entirely removed from criticism (for creating an envrionment where such bombing could occur) is both short-sighted and a complete dead end to achieving any real peace in the region. If you kill off evey suicide bomber today, there will be a hundered more tomorrow willing to take their place as long as the root cause of the anger, and the feeling of hoplesness remains.
A real solution, at the expense of some land that is acknowledged as an occupied territority by the Israelis themselves, would be a start. If problems continued after that then Israel would be fully justified in making a forceful response. I just don't believe that the current leadership is any more interested in peace than Hamas is, and that the ultimate goal is to turn occuiped territory into settled territory for these people.
Charon
-
Charon, yup we're thinking along the same lines. I had started to post, got 2 words in before I was sidetracked by work, and then got back to finishing the thought. I never saw your post until after I hit submit. :)
-
<<>> -Charon
You have me confused. I thought the Palestinians were offered land a little while ago and refused the offer. Maybe Jordan can throw the Palestinians some land to make them happy; afterall, doesn't this problem affect the entire region.
In my views, it's a very sad state of affairs but I don't see the root of this as being about land. My $.02.
-
Well Puke, the "offer" was was rather nebulous, with some serious sticking points and both sides seem to have made miscalculations. Then Sharon made his famous little visit and negoiations ground to a halt pretty quickly.
Here is an article from the Guardian Unlimited I pulled off a site linked to the American arm of Shalom Achshav, an organization that is self described as: Shalom Achshav [Peace Now], the largest grassroots movement in Israel's history, was founded in March 1978 by 348 reserve commanders, officers, and combat soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces. Experience had taught these citizen soldiers that only a politically negotiated solution could end their nation's hundred-year war with its Arab and Palestinian neighbors. As they wrote to then Prime Minister Menachem Begin: "Real security can be achieved only when we achieve peace."
Camp David: a tragedy of errors
Blaming Arafat for the failure of the peace process is a dangerous mistake
By Robert Malley and Hussein Agha
From The Guardian July 20, 2001
In accounts of the July 2000 Camp David summit and the following months of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, we often hear about Ehud Barak's unprecedented offer and Yasser Arafat's uncompromising "no". Israel is said to have made a historic proposal, which the Palestinians, once again seizing the opportunity to miss an opportunity, turned down. The failure to reach a final agreement is attributed, without notable dissent, to Yasser Arafat.
As orthodoxies go, this is a dangerous one. Broader conclusions take hold. That there is no peace partner is one. That there is no possible end to the conflict with Arafat is another. For a process of such complexity, the diagnosis is remarkably shallow. It ignores history, the dynamics of the negotiations, and the relationships among the three parties. It fails to capture why what so many viewed as a generous Israeli offer, the Palestinians viewed as neither generous, nor Israeli, nor, indeed, as an offer. Worse, it acts as a harmful constraint on American policy by offering up a single, convenient culprit (Arafat) rather than a more nuanced and realistic analysis.
Each side came to Camp David with very different perspectives. Ehud Barak was guided by a deep antipathy toward the concept of gradual steps that lay at the heart of the 1993 Oslo agreement. He discarded a number of interim steps, even those to which Israel was formally committed - including a third partial redeployment of troops from the West Bank, the transfer to Palestinian control of three villages abutting Jerusalem and the release of Palestinian prisoners. Concessions to the Palestinians would cost Barak precious political capital that he was determined to husband until the final, climactic moment.
Seen from Gaza and the West Bank, Oslo's legacy read like a litany of promises deferred or unfulfilled. Six years after the agreement, there were more Israeli settlements, less freedom of movement, and worse economic conditions. Behind almost all of Barak's moves, Arafat believed he could discern the objective of either forcing him to swallow an unconscionable deal, or mobilising the world to isolate and weaken the Palestinians. Those who claim that Arafat lacked interest in a permanent deal miss the point. Like Barak, the Palestinian leader felt that permanent status negotiations were long overdue; unlike Barak, he did not think that this justified doing away with the interim obligations. In many ways, Barak's actions led to a classic case of misaddressed messages.
When Barak reneged on his commitment to transfer the three Jerusalem villages - a commitment he had specifically authorised Clinton to convey to Arafat - Clinton was furious. In the end, though, and on almost all these questionable tactical judgments, the US either gave up or gave in, reluctantly acquiescing out of respect for the things Barak was trying to do. If there is one issue that Israelis agree on, it is that Barak broke every conceivable taboo and went as far as any Israeli prime minister had gone or could go. Even so, it is hard to state with confidence how far Barak was actually prepared to go. Strictly speaking, there never was an Israeli offer. Determined to preserve Israel's position in the event of failure, the Israelis always stopped one, if not several, steps short of a proposal.
The ideas put forward at Camp David were never stated in writing, but orally conveyed. In the Palestinians' eyes, they were the ones who made the principal concessions. Arafat was persuaded that the Israelis were setting a trap. His primary objective thus became to cut his losses rather than maximise his gains. That did not mean that he ruled out reaching a final deal; but Palestinian negotiators, with one eye on the summit and another back home, could not accept the ambiguous formulations that had served to bridge differences between the parties in the past and that later, in their view, had been interpreted to Israel's advantage; this time around, only clear and unequivocal understandings would do.
The Camp David proposals were viewed as inadequate: they were silent on the question of refugees, the land exchange was unbalanced, and much of Arab East Jerusalem was to remain under Israeli sovereignty. To accept these proposals in the hope that Barak would then move further risked diluting the Palestinian position in a fundamental way. Meanwhile, America's political and cultural affinity with Israel translated into an acute sensitivity to Israeli domestic concerns and an exaggerated appreciation of Israel's substantive moves. The US team often pondered whether Barak could sell a given proposal to his people, including some he himself had made. The question rarely, if ever, was asked about Arafat.
Designed to preserve his assets for the "moment of truth", Barak's tactics helped to ensure that the parties never got there. Many inclined to blame Arafat alone for the collapse of the negotiations, point to his inability to accept the ideas for a settlement put forward by Clinton on December 23, five months after the Camp David talks ended. The president's proposals showed that the distance travelled since Camp David was indeed considerable, and almost all in the Palestinians' direction. Arafat thought hard before providing his response. But Clinton was not presenting the terms of a final deal - rather "parameters" within which accelerated, final negotiations were to take place. With only thirty days left in Clinton's presidency, the likelihood of reaching a deal was remote at best.
Offer or no offer, the negotiations that took place between July 2000 and February 2001 make up an indelible chapter in the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Taboos were shattered, the unspoken got spoken, and, during that period, Israelis and Palestinians reached an unprecedented level of understanding of what it will take to end their struggle. When the two sides resume their path toward a permanent agreement - and eventually, they will - they will come to it with the memory of those remarkable eight months, the experience of how far they had come and how far they had yet to go, and with the sobering wisdom of an opportunity that was missed by all, less by design than by mistake, more through miscalculation than through mischief.
The full version of this article appears in the August issue of the New York Review of Books.
Robert Malley was adviser to President Clinton on Arab-Israeli affairs; Hussein Agha is senior associate member of St Antony's College, Oxford
On Sharon’s zionism (not really a secret or open to much debate, he's not ashamed of the description) Sharon 1 (http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/03/01/fp1s3-csm.shtml )
On the current settlement pattern within the territorities and Burak’s offer, by another Israeli peace group Gush Shalom:
Territories (http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html)
Another Sharon article by the Guardian Unlimited:
Sharon 2 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,433318,00.html)
I don’t see a reason why Jordan should have to create a homeland for the Palestinians, any more than you or I should give up our property to establish a "convenient" solution.
Charon
-
There will be no peace in the Middle-east untill one side defeats the other and peace can be enforced.
-
Sharon's personal vendetta against Arafat makes him the most dangerous man in the middle east today. With him at the reigns, there will never be an end to the circle of violence.
Sharon knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he visited such a controversial site as the Al-Aqsa mosque, the third holiest site in Islam back in 2000. A right wing Israeli politician with his reputation and history (a war criminal according to the EU), he knew it would stir up a storm. And look how he has capitalized on it! From fringe radical to Prime Minister in a couple of years.
The more I read about the bloated bigot, the more I detest him.
-
Charon,
Thanks. I'm learning a lot through all these discourses on the boards. I'll try and read all them words soon.
-
I’m not sure I can take any side. I do have a question though.
What would any other county do if bombs where going off in there country every other day or so for the last 18 months? I’m not sure I totally agree with the actions taken but that doesn’t mean that I can’t understand why they are doing it.
Arafat had the ability to stop this with the creation of Palestinian state, he choose the all or nothing approach. He’s just as responsible as anyone else.
Basically everyone needs to stop pointing the finger at everyone else and start pointing at themselves. I keep getting the vision of kindergartners shoving each other saying “he started it!”.
I don’t believe that Sharon or Arafat either one are going to do totally right for their people. In all actuality I blame Barach (sp). It was his arrogance that brought the special election that put Sharon in power. I believe he was making a gamble that people would chose peace with him rather than war with Saron. The whole purpose of which was to side step an assured loss to Netenyawho (I know that’s spelled wrong). He’s a bit more militant than Barach but not near to the extent that Sharon is.
My thoughts go out to the Palestinian and Israeli people. I can only hope that the people that need to be clear headed start doing so soon.
-
This is the 1st time I have actually looked at a map of the West Bank as proposed by the Israelis. Looks like BS to me....no wonder the Palestinians turned it down.
-
Yep Tah Gut; pretty much same thing like "homelands" in South-Africa when apartheid was still going on there.
"...in the 1970's there were creations of so called black homelands which in theory were independent countries with their own governments. These homelands were set up so that when blacks entered the white designated South Africa, the government could say that they were foreign guests with no political rights. The home lands were still, in effect, under the control of the white regime due to the fact that they could not survive economically without the support of the white South Africa."
Looks like apartheid is still alive in some countries :(
-
I read an account of a Palestinian woman throwing pots and jars out the window, at a Palestinian gunman. She was pissed because he was drawing fire to her home.
That's pretty much the problem in a nutshell. Nobody is in charge over there. There is no one to make peace with. Even if Arafat signed a paper. Hezbula, and humas would keep right on blowing people up.
The Israelis put Sheron in charge. That's about like us making Gen. Patton the prez. Despite the retoric, there are no good guys in this one, on either side.
Frankly, all I car about is U.S. interest. That puts us on the side of the Israelis for 3 reasons. We need to keep our word for a change. We have a definite interest in seeing that terrorism is not successful. And the Arab world put us on the "other side". wither we like it or not.
-
Actually I am pro Israeli AND pro Palestinian. I would like to see an end to all this senseless violence.
For you Pro-Sharon supporters out there, I'll ask this again: Name anything that we have done to help the Palestinian people and their country over the years - since 1948?
another terrorist lover
smile now when they blow up a mall, building, school in your town
Eagler
Eagler, I am no more a terrorist lover than you are a state-sponsored terrorist lover. I do understand the reasons for each side doing what they're doing. I don't support it though. The Israelis hold all the cards and the power. It is up to them to make the first move towards peace...and keeping it.
Also Eagler, How would you feel of some helicopter gunships and heavy tanks (of which you really have no defense against as you don't have a military) rolling into your neighborhood and destroying your property, mall, school, hospital, etc.? How about their not letting in supplies, food etc.? How about your losing some friends and family? How about not letting you bury your dead? Oh, I get it, you'd be okay with all the civillian casualties (may number in the hundreds if not thousands before this latest operation is over) as you'd consider the loss of your best friend, wife, son, daughter, father, mother, neighbor, and/or fellow country person as just collateral casualties.
If someone is against violence, I don't see how he could be terribly sympathetic to the Palestinians.
oldman
Oldman, the majority of the Palestinians AND the Israelis would love nothing more than to live in peace, in their own homeland, with their own self-determination. The Palestinians have none of the above. They are tired of getting pushed and shoved by the bullying Israeli military machine. You're telling me that you wouldn't be upset if you were in their shoes?
So what college are you attending? Berkely seems quite active these days in anti-semetism.
Ripsnort
Ripsnort, Please define anti-semitism. How are my statements equating anti-semitism. Is it because I am not goose-stepping in line with you because I see these Israeli military operations as not good for the long term security of an Israeli nation? Creating generations of future terrorists is not my idea of a smart foreign policy. Killing and hatred never brought understanding, compassion, and respect from your opponent/enemy. It only breeds more hatred and a need for revenge.
There will be no peace in the Middle-east untill one side defeats the other and peace can be enforced.
OZkansas
OZkansas, If one has to use violence and force to 'enforce peace' then there truly cannot be peace. Right now would the world support the complete elimination of an entire people be it Palestinian or Israeli (genocide)? I think not. Punishing the whole for what a fraction do is not justice.
I’m not sure I can take any side. I do have a question though. What would any other county do if bombs where going off in there country every other day or so for the last 18 months? I’m not sure I totally agree with the actions taken but that doesn’t mean that I can’t understand why they are doing it.
Arafat had the ability to stop this with the creation of Palestinian state, he choose the all or nothing approach. He’s just as responsible as anyone else.
Zippatuh
Zippatuh, You mean bombs going off in illegal occupied lands that I took from the peaple bombing me? What would you do?
Arafat has absolutely no control over Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Past Israeli policies have made Arafat powerless to control the situation. The continued scapegoating of Arafat of being responsible for the suicide bombings by the Pro-Israeli leadership is ludicrous. Perhaps the continued illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the industrialised world at large ignoring the Palestinians might have a large part of desperate Palestinians blowing themselves up while trying to take out their 'enemy'?
I'm going to start another thread on possible solutions for a peaceful Israeli/Palestinian coexistance. It sure would be more constructive than this 20/20 hindsight game we're all playing.
Criticizing, namecalling, and labeling are quite easy. It's coming up with the ideas and solutions that is the hard part.
wSNPR
-
Yup, that’s right. Arafat is blameless and has nothing to do with the current situation. Then why the hell are we talking to him then if he has nothing to do with it and has no control?
Step up to the plate or sit down. He isn’t doing either.
The argument of still occupying Palestinian land, pre ’67 land, get over it. They’re not getting it back, it will never be negotiated, so saying they are blowing things up because they think the flag should be different over Tel Aviv is crap. It’s not going to happen.
The only reasonable argument for occupation can be made with post ’67 land. Was it right in the first place to move in and plant a flag saying, “Now this is Israel”. No, but it’s not going to change. If indeed this is the fight then it will never end even if the “Palestinian” area is made to be recognized as a state.
From the sound of it we may be straddling the same fence. I’m just not as vocal against Israel as you seem to be. There is so much mud around both camps that anything that can be said has an immediate response from the other side.
What should have been quoted was the kindergarten remark because that’s exactly what is going on here. “Oh yeah! Well, he started it!”
Who started it, who is responsible, how it came to be like this, and where the blame should be placed is exactly what is wrong with the whole situation. Try and correct the situation not find out who the blame should be placed on.
Which leads to the other more constructive thread you started.
-
I'd respect the Palestines more if they at least deplored the bombers. I'm talking the leaders as well as the citizens with open protests and SHOUTS for them to stop and allow peace yet another chance. It seems they condone & promote it instead.
Another woman bomber set herself off at an Israeli bus stop :(
As stated, until this small % of Palestines is put in an unfavorable light from the Palestine majority and the Arabs for that matter. I don't see what other choice Israel has but to continue with their Palestine harrassment.
-
Yup, that’s right. Arafat is blameless and has nothing to do with the current situation. Then why the hell are we talking to him then if he has nothing to do with it and has no control?
Step up to the plate or sit down. He isn’t doing either.
The argument of still occupying Palestinian land, pre ’67 land, get over it. They’re not getting it back, it will never be negotiated, so saying they are blowing things up because they think the flag should be different over Tel Aviv is crap. It’s not going to happen.
The only reasonable argument for occupation can be made with post ’67 land. Was it right in the first place to move in and plant a flag saying, “Now this is Israel”. No, but it’s not going to change. If indeed this is the fight then it will never end even if the “Palestinian” area is made to be recognized as a state.
From the sound of it we may be straddling the same fence. I’m just not as vocal against Israel as you seem to be. There is so much mud around both camps that anything that can be said has an immediate response from the other side.
What should have been quoted was the kindergarten remark because that’s exactly what is going on here. “Oh yeah! Well, he started it!”
Who started it, who is responsible, how it came to be like this, and where the blame should be placed is exactly what is wrong with the whole situation. Try and correct the situation not find out who the blame should be placed on.
Which leads to the other more constructive thread you started.
Zippatuh
Zippatuh,
We should not only be talking with Arafat, but with the leaders of the other factions as well. We are talking to Arafat as he is the figurehead leader of the Palestianians. Showing respect never hurt a thing, and might just help.
As long as both the Israelis and Palestinians can agree on a common border would work by me. As it is now, the present occupation by Israel is not acceptable.
Only with a full understanding of the issues can a valid and constructive solution be found.
You're right though, childish blaming, namecalling, and insults are not constructive an any situation.
I would think that 90% of us are straddling the same fence. :)
wSNPR
-
Unfortunetely the suicide bombings continue with at least one of the attacks claimed by Hamas. The reason given being this latest invasion by Israeli Forces. Unfortunate cause and effect. :(
-
Maybe there is help from another side: MONEY.
Sharons war and policy is very expensive. To raise and hold an army and the operations costs a lot of money.
The negative economical effects on the country are great.
Even already the israeli parliament had to reduce some wealth-programs in cause of financing the Sharon-nonsense.
Now they plan to build a wall - a really good idea to waste money even faster.
East Germany has shown how expensive it is to build and maintain such a wall.
So - after they all loose enough money - they maybe will reconsider their policy.
It will be interesting to see when the economic effects will get a new negative record because of the actual policy and how the people there react when the next reducements are made.
-
Originally posted by babek-
Now they plan to build a wall - a really good idea to waste money even faster.
East Germany has shown how expensive it is to build and maintain such a wall.
So - after they all loose enough money - they maybe will reconsider their policy.
It will be interesting to see when the economic effects will get a new negative record because of the actual policy and how the people there react when the next reducements are made.
Perhaps the value human life more than money? As for the israeli economy, of cource the war on terrorism puts strains on the economy. That is why the US is sending billions of dollars in aid to Israel, and that is why we all should do our best to buy Israeli merchandice.
-
Originally posted by wsnpr
The State sponsored terrorism by Israel under the guise or 'self defence' is no excuse. Sharon and the Israeli leadership are not interested in peace short of a Greater Israel and buffer zone. Period. All Sharon is insuring is the future continued attacks against Israelis by desperate Palestinian people (mainly those who have lost innocent family and friends from Israeli Military attacks, so called collateral casualties) who no longer have hope of self determination. Hatred and killing breeds more hatred and killing. So, who is retaliating against who?
BTW, I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian.
[/b]
Recognize these two quotes wnspr? I dunno if its just me, but that first quote of yours doesnt seem very pro-Israeli actually...
Hypocrite.
-
An army in war is very expensive. And the israeli Army is actualy in war.
Its high tech and maintainance also consumes a great amount of the israeli money.
Senseless projects - like the wall - will also take a huge amount of their money.
The war in this region and its instability also reduce foreign investments and destroys infrastructure.
I dont care if a product is made in Israel or in UK - if the israeli product has a better quality than the british I will buy it - but I dont know which quality products actually come from israel which are better than european products .
Israel is highly dependent on US-financial help.
The question is when the costs will reach a point where they cant be paid any longer.
And how the people react when more and more reducements are made in their normal life - like reducements of welfare-projects - to keep up the maintainence of the military moloch.
Actually we have patt in the region. Both sides - the palestines and the israelis have no chance to win in this conflict with military or terroristic actions.
The keep on fighting - the one side using tanks the other suicide-bombers.
On both sides the actual political leaders have failed.
So - I say: Let them go on in their nonsense war. Maybe the money-problem will stop them.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
Recognize these two quotes wnspr? I dunno if its just me, but that first quote of yours doesnt seem very pro-Israeli actually...
Hypocrite. [/B]
LOL, and how old are you?
Because I don't support aggression by an Israeli leader that wants nothing more than to rid the Palestinians from the occupied territories, hardly qualifies me as anti-Israeli.
So all those Israelis that are protesting the same Sharon-led military operation are also not pro-Israeli? Perhaps they are seeing what you have failed to: That the continued support of displacing and killing innocent civillians only breeds more hatred and retaliation. Israel's future doesn't look too bright if all they continue to do is creat a perpetual stream of enemies willing to die for their cause.
I have a question for you. Is this how you intelligently and maturily respond to things that you disagree with? Name-calling and insults? You really need to have more self-control of your emotions.
-
Wsnpr, don't fall for his antics. He is the type of person that is right, when PROVEN wrong!
Hortlund, you want to talk HYPOCRISY? How about this one for you. Alfred Nobel creates an explosive containing the Nitroglycerin compound (which he "revolutionized") and when it comes to two world wars, We're neutral.
I won't even read this thread either, because it's a waste of time to post anything with this guy Wsnpr. Just walk away, walk away. He likes pissing contests for some reason, must be tough with the reindeer though.
Masher