Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wsnpr on April 12, 2002, 04:36:40 AM
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Please, some peaceful solutions. No name calling, or kill em all types please.....go start your own thread in this case.
First Israel and the Palestinians recognizes the existence of the other. The rest of the Arab world also recognizes Israel and Palestine.
Israel pulls it's borders back to the pre 1967 Six Day War borders. An 800 meter buffer zone will seperate Palestine and Israel. It will taper off at Jerusalem where it will have joint control by Israel and Palestine. A sizeable UN force will police Jerusalem. A fund from oil sales profits will go towards each Israeli and Palestinian citizen will get $10,000. U.S. @ adult and $5,000. U.S. per minor under 18 yrs of age. Each individual citizen will pledge allegience to a peaceful co-existence with the other. Every nation in the region will give up about 800-1600 meters of land in show of support. Said land will not contain valuable resources such as water, oil, or minerals. By giving up land and allowing slightly shifting borders, said nations would be free from contributing to the above fund. Another fund would be created for Israel and Palestine allowing for hospitals, schools, housing, etc. Call them human rights reparations. Cameras and listening devises would be put along the Israeli/Palestine border and would be monitored by UN personnel.
Sheesh, just saw the time... 2:35 am tired and gotta go get some sleep. I'll try to finish tomorrow.
BTW, anyone that has a better idea, please post your solution in this thread also. (I know my idea is a 'dreamland' type of idea, but it's a start. It sure beats the Hell that's going on there now.)
The following added in:
The world community would help build and operate two state-of-the-art hospitals with the best doctors. One in Israel and the other in Palestine. All Palestinians and Israelis would have full medical insurance coverage paid for by the world community (mainly the industrialised nations and oil-rich nations) both hospitals would have a fleet of identical medivac helicopters.
Also two major universities again one in Israel and the other in Palestine with the best professors. Each Israeli and Palestinian citizen would have to take a class about one hour a week. The class would show the history of each other as a people and of their respective religions. (Strength in information as being ignorant can lead to death and destruction.)
Athletic parks with lights would be built so kids and young adults could play soccer, baseball, basketball, etc. (If they're playing, studying, or working they wouldn't be throwing stones. especially when one removes the hate motive.)
Each side via their respective leaders, will issue a full apology to the other of the deaths suffered by the other...without excuses to the whys. The sensless bloodshed and reasoning behind it has got to stop. Those that have lost family from all the fighting (since 1948) will receive additional compensation. It won't eliminate the pain and suffering the survivors have gone through but would be a good gesture.
The main work force in these construction projects will comprise of Palestinians for Palestinian projects and Israelis for Israeli projects. The unemployment rate will be extremely low. The US will send in support through nonmilitary sources such as the Peace Corps. Other nations would send in support also.
For the first time in over two centuries, both the Israelis and the Palestinians would receive the world support and recognition they both desperately have sought and deserved.
Sheesh, there are many more details but I am in the process of moving now (to a better place- woohoo! ) :) I hope you all get my drift and from where I come from. Again, I am pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. How many of you can say the same?
Again it seems too improbable for this to happen but think what is going on now? Think of what has gone on? The world community is paying a lot right now and both the Israeli's and the Palestinian's futures do not look good if things don't change.
Remember this: People don't kill friends. They kill enemies. Suicide bombers don't kill for the sake of killing or petty jealousies. Prevent the hatred and you'll go a long ways towards preventing attacks.
wSNPR
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Amazing
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Originally posted by wsnpr
Please, some peaceful solutions. No name calling, or kill em all types please.....go start your own thread in this case.
First Israel and the Palestinians recognizes the existence of the other. The rest of the Arab world also recognizes Israel and Palestine.
Israel pulls it's borders back to the pre 1967 Six Day War borders. An 800 meter buffer zone will seperate Palestine and Israel. It will taper off at Jerusalem where it will have joint control by Israel and Palestine. A sizeable UN force will police Jerusalem. A fund from oil sales profits will go towards each Israeli and Palestinian citizen will get $10,000. U.S. @ adult and $5,000. U.S. per minor under 18 yrs of age. Each individual citizen will pledge allegience to a peaceful co-existence with the other. Every nation in the region will give up about 800-1600 meters of land in show of support. Said land will not contain valuable resources such as water, oil, or minerals. By giving up land and allowing slightly shifting borders, said nations would be free from contributing to the above fund. Another fund would be created for Israel and Palestine allowing for hospitals, schools, housing, etc. Call them human rights reparations. Cameras and listening devises would be put along the Israeli/Palestine border and would be monitored by UN personnel.
Sheesh, just saw the time... 2:35 am tired and gotta go get some sleep. I'll try to finish tomorrow.
BTW, anyone that has a better idea, please post your solution in this thread also. (I know my idea is a 'dreamland' type of idea, but it's a start. It sure beats the Hell that's going on there now.)
Quick! Email this to Powell. Probably better than any idea he has in his briefcase :)
Great idea but do you think it'd stop the killing? All for the UN police as long as US soldiers are not in the mix ...
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Great idea but do you think it'd stop the killing? All for the UN police as long as US soldiers are not in the mix ...
Eagler
Most of the killing would stop, not all. Change is never easy and there will always be extremists on both sides not willing to compromise. I would wager though that if a plan similar to what I just submitted above was implimented, the acts of violence would go way down. One would finally see the majority trying to stop its own extremist factions as there would be too much to lose.
Remember former hated enemies are now the best of allies (e.g. The US, England, france, Italy, Spain, Japan, Russia, etc.) so it can happen for Israel and Palestine. BTW, I submit that there will be a lot more killing on both sides if nothing is done. Perhaps the genocide of one side via nuclear, chemical, or biological. Doing nothing almost guarantees that.
The US should not have any military presence at all as we're not trusted by the Arab world. US workers, doctors, teachers, etc-yes, military personnel - no. This would be a very good 'olive branch' symbol to the Arab world.
wSNPR
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Who's going to pay the initial cost of your program and then the ongoing costs (IE: hospitals and universities)?
Well, cheerfully and willingly pay the cost, anyway. :)
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"First Israel and the Palestinians recognizes the existence of the other. The rest of the Arab world also recognizes Israel and Palestine. "
*choke* hahahahhahaha. *snork* hahahahahaah
*passes out*
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If the above plan is implemented, it will then be time for the US to take steps to normalise relations with Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Libya, North Korea, etc. If we can recognise China, we sure as hell can recognise these other nations. Remember that terrorist attacks are the result of hatred and revenge, not jealousy. Remove the reason to hate, you remove the reason to kill.
wSNPR
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Just curious...
Who's going to pay the initial cost of your program and then the ongoing costs (IE: hospitals and universities)?
Well, cheerfully and willingly pay the cost, anyway.
Toad
I would expect the US, England, Japan, Germany, France, China, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, etc., etc. to pay. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than paying billions of dollars anually to anti-terror campaigns that usually have the opposite effect. I kind of enjoy my civil liberties here in the US. I hate having them eroded all in the name of fighting terrorism. I would expect the first 20 years or so of 100% world funding. After this period the Israelis and Palestinians can start contributing. With their own businesses and economy, they should be able to pay for the the maintenance and salaries involved. It could be a stepped plan. After 20 years, the 100% of world support goes to 75%, after 30 years it drops to 50%, etc.
wSNPR
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Cost isn't the issue....as Tac points out your first sentance is where your solution falls apart. Recognise each other...yup, through their respective gunsights maybe...
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Cost isn't the issue....as Tac points out your first sentance is where your solution falls apart. Recognise each other...yup, through their respective gunsights maybe...
Curval
Curval, You don't think that most Israelis and Palestinians would be happy of a peaceful solution? Just curious, what would be YOUR solution?
wSNPR
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(Ripsnort looks at the "Peaceful Solution" the Saudi Arabianss are putting forth, a Telethon raising millions for the "victim" families of suicide bombers...)
Out of ideas here, there's only one solution left when dealing with idiots...and it sounds like this: (http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~bpollack/ExamplesJ/AUSounds/explosion2.au)
I have a suggestion for every "peace nick" out there, lets set up a program and have every young Palestinian male between ages of 10 and 25 spend a week at your house so as to help you understand why peace is not an option ;) Don't get me wrong, I'd MUCH rather prefer "peace" than war, but THEY do NOT! What part of that DON'T you understand? They want to kill ALL INFIDELS. Dammit, you guys just ain't going to figure that out are ya? I guess the deaths have to occur (9/11) in YOUR family before you figure that out. (shrugs)
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These folks are just going to cheerfully ante up the necessary funding? Just write a check?
Iraq funding some hospital in Israel? Jeez-Louise, Saddam is spending money on WMD instead of Iraqi hospitals. China?
It's a nice idea but "optimistic" doesn't really do it justice.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
(They want to kill ALL INFIDELS.
Rip is right, I'm afraid. Our very existence and the culture we've developed bugs the hell out of muslim fanatics who would like to stick to their 6-th century way of life, and force everybody to do the same.
The modern western culture is willing and able to accept all peoples who do not share our views (was not always like that , but it is now), the other guys just can't.
The only thing we can do do satisfy them is to die.
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(Ripsnort looks at the "Peaceful Solution" the Saudi Arabianss are putting forth, a Telethon raising millions for the "victim" families of suicide bombers...)
Out of ideas here, there's only one solution left when dealing with idiots...and it sounds like this:
I have a suggestion for every "peace nick" out there, lets set up a program and have every young Palestinian male between ages of 10 and 25 spend a week at your house so as to help you understand why peace is not an option Don't get me wrong, I'd MUCH rather prefer "peace" than war, but THEY do NOT! What part of that DON'T you understand? They want to kill ALL INFIDELS. Dammit, you guys just ain't going to figure that out are ya? I guess the deaths have to occur (9/11) in YOUR family before you figure that out. (shrugs)
Ripsnort
Ripsnort, Who doesn't want peace? Remember these suicide bombings happened way after the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. What part of that do you not get? Despite this latest massive raid by Israel, yet another suicide bomb went off in Jerusalem, killing more innocent civillians. You still don't get it.
So Ripsnort, please show us your great intellect and reasoning skills. WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION TO THIS ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN SITUATION? If you don't have one, please go to another thread.....or can you not understand requests/instructions?
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My solution would be to take all those who seek a peaceful solution (like yourself) round them up and send them to Palestine to "see what you could work out with them". That would be my solution.
Intellect? Nope...
Common sense and survival skills? Damn tootin'!
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Originally posted by wsnpr
Please, some peaceful solutions. No name calling, or kill em all types please.....go start your own thread in this case.
Originally posted by wsnpr
So Ripsnort, please show us your great intellect and reasoning skills....If you don't have one, please go to another thread.....or can you not understand requests/instructions
[/B]
wsnpr,
you are violating your own rules by resorting to personal attacks
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oops double post...sorry
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quote:
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Originally posted by wsnpr
Please, some peaceful solutions. No name calling, or kill em all types please.....go start your own thread in this case.
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quote:
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Originally posted by wsnpr
So Ripsnort, please show us your great intellect and reasoning skills....If you don't have one, please go to another thread.....or can you not understand requests/instructions
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wsnpr,
you are violating your own rules by resorting to personal attacks
mietla
mietla,
LOL are you saying Ripsnort is not intellegent and not showing reasoning skills? I'm leaving it up to Ripsnort to post here and we can determine for ourselves. And no, I am not name calling despite what I may think of some individuals. I'll leave the individuals to bury themselves.
BTW, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION TO THIS PRESENT ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN ISSUE?
please stop splitting hairs and nitpicking to minor issues.
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Build a 3 story high wall. Unlike germany, these people need it.
Make the holy cities be vatican-like states governed BY the UN and freely accessible to each side providing no weapons are introduced. If they want to fist fight in there, I hope they get shot by a UN rubber pellet in the nuts.
Another solution would be relocating 1 side. Logical choice would be israel, though I dont think they'll want to leave, even if you gave them a bigger, richer, totally peaceful land to live in.
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Here's alittle test for you...ignore "nationalities" such as "Arab" or "Palestine", and just take this cultural test please?
Let's pause a moment and take the following test...
In 1972, 11 Israeli athletes were killed at the Munich Olympics by:
(a) Grandma Moses;
(b) The night cleaning crew at Rockefeller Center;
(c) Invaders from Mars; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Norwegians from the Lichen Herbarium of the University of Oslo;
(b) Elvis;
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy;
(b) Crazed feminists complaining that having to throw a grenade beyond its
own burst radius in basic training was an
unfair and sexist job requirement;
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Luca Brazzi, for not being given a part in "Godfather 2";
(b) The Tooth Fairy;
(c) Butch and Sundance, who had a few sticks of dynamite left over from
their train mission; or,
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed by:
(a) The entire cast of "Cats";
(b) Martha Stewart;
(c) Cheeze-crazed tourists from Wisconsin; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were
bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers;
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems;
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha
the Merciless"; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wil E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd.
(b) The State Supreme Court of Florida, trying to outdo their attempted hijacking of the 2000
Presidential election;
(c) Grandmother and granddaughter going to Grand Bahama Island on vacation
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
Hmmm...nope, ain't no patterns here. Darned if I know why we should ever even think about profiling or supporting any Palestinians.
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Originally posted by wsnpr
mietla,
LOL are you saying Ripsnort is not intellegent and not showing reasoning skills?
not at all. I I clearly took your post as a personal attack on Rip. I have no intention to defend Rip (he can do it himself).
Originally posted by wsnpr
BTW, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION TO THIS PRESENT ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN ISSUE?
well, I don't have one, and come to think of it, I'm not even sure whether the peacefull solution exists. You are assumming that is it possible for Arabs and Jews to live as peaceful neighbours, it's just that we have to find how. I'm not so sure.
Remember how Rome-Carthage conflict was solved? Cato had finally gotten his wish "delenda est Carthago", although it took him a while to persist.
The solution worked, but was not that peaceful.
Maybe the UN should have establish Israel in defeated Germany, not in a Middle East (only half joking).
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Given the history of these people, there never will be a solution short of one side obliterating the other.
Israel didn't just decide to go and seize some extra land, she did it out of defensive necessity after repeatedly being invaded. I am sure the Arabs would love to see us force Israel to give back by treaty what they lost and could not get back by force. Giving back the occupied lands in resonse to terrorist attacks is appeasement of terrorism.
On the other hand, Israel wouldn't exist if the western powers had not given her the arms to take and hold the land by force.
I see no right or wrong, only two determined peoples defending their cause by any means necessary. The "solution" offered at the beginning of this post is laughable. People like Arafat have committed their lives to ensuring that every last Israeli suffers for their crime of simply breathing. Israelis seem to feel the same way about the Arabs. No written law or treaty ever controls how people really act, it takes the involved parties sincerely wanting to change and taking the actions necessary to do so.
If I were Israel, I would not concede to anything. They have been and still are strong enough to hold their position against every single nation around them. When the Arab nations are capable of defeating Israel, then maybe negotiations are in order. If Palestinians don't want Israeli tanks running over their people, they best stop strapping on bombs and blowing up Israelis. If Israel wants the suicide bombing to stop, they have two choices: surrender completely or kill off everyone who is willing to suicide bomb them which would make it damn near genocide.
My one hope is that this situation is diffused back down to "normal" levels of violence before an all-out war occurs. If it comes down to Israel versus the Arab nations, then I hope the US forgets about oil prices and remembers what the Arabs think about the US and its culture. Would it be so bad if we rolled over all the Arab countries and left Israel in charge of the oil? I fear in the name of economics and world opinion, the US is going to abandon one of its truest allies. Even if Israel was completely dissolved and the land restored to Arab peoples, I don't think the Arab attitude toward the west or the US in particular would change much. The US government may have some very difficult decisions to face in the near future. Decisions that may affect the course of history for all of humanity.
May saner minds prevail in the Middle East and find a way to restore the balance without shedding so much blood. Failing that, I wish Israel the best of luck in defending its right to continue existing as a nation free of daily terrorist attacks and hope we never have to suffer the same.
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Originally posted by wsnpr
Curval, You don't think that most Israelis and Palestinians would be happy of a peaceful solution? Just curious, what would be YOUR solution?
wSNPR
Dunno man...I think MOST Israelis would be happy for a peaceful solution (not all certainly, because there are some extreme right wing elements that don't want peace)...but I think that the actions and rhetoric of the Palestinians suggest that MOST do not want peace...unless that peace comes after the extermination of Isreal.
Have you seen the details of this telethon that is taking place right now...Rip mentioned it briefly. It is enough to make you want to be sick! They are gonna give $150,000 to each family whose child matryred themselves by way of suicide bombs!!!! I would blow myself up if I was poor and living the way the Palestinian refugees are living. They pray on their own people for heaven's sake!
Ripsnort mentions the term "infadels"...that is who the jihad currently targets. Infedels are you, me, and everyone non-Musilm. When was the last time you heard of the Musilms referred to as "Heretics" or "Heathans"? The Middle Ages for Christ's sake (no pun intended)! Rip is right....they want to kill the infedels...all of us!!!!!!
Okay...so you asked for a solution....don't have one. But neither does the most brilliant diplomats that we have on this earth...no-one can figure it out because it is based on religious fanaticism. "Your" solution is going no-where...not because it isn't a good idea, but because you simply cannot reason with religious fanatics
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Norwegians from the Lichen Herbarium of the University of Oslo;
(b) Elvis;
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
The Iranians could ask the following questions:
Who deposed the democratic elected iranian prime minister Mossadegh and put again the dictatorical Shah of Iran to power in the 1950ties ?
(a) Norwegians from the Lichen Herbarium of the University of Oslo;
(b) Elvis;
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women; or
(d) Christian male and maybe also females from CIA/USA?
Who helped the Imperial Iranian Government to organise a Gestapo-like intelligence service called SAVAK which eliminated thousands of intellectuals and democratic iranians until the Shah was deposed in 1979?
(a) Norwegians from the Lichen Herbarium of the University of Oslo;
(b) Elvis;
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women; or
(d) Christian male and maybe also females from CIA/USA?
So - should we conclude that christians are mad or fanatic or radical?
SOME of them are - as SOME of other nations, religions or races.
But never ALL. There is no COLLECTIVE guilt of a single nation, race or religion.
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babek...
Your list is somewhat smaller than Rip's...and I have actually HEARD of the events to which he referrs to.
Your post reads like someone grasping at straws!
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dunno if there really is one either
I don't think both sides are on the same level of civilization
be like a missionary trying to "get along" with a bunch of cannibals he stumbled upon in the jungle
seems like two very different realities or concepts of living/life there ... the whole thing is very sad
Dunno if a wall would work, maybe if it had 1/2 mile of very dense minefields to keep them separated it would
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I think I have the solution.
Let's colonize Mars and we give it to all the religious radicals in the world (be them muslims, zionists, christian wackos...)... or even better, to all the radicals in the world.
Heck they would not only have their own sovereign nation but also their own sovereign planet!
And we could all watch the "Martial Wars Live!" program on NASA TV or ESA TV!
Watch'all think? :)
Daniel
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
I think I have the solution.
Let's colonize Mars and we give it to all the religious radicals in the world (be them muslims, zionists, christian wackos...)... or even better, to all the radicals in the world.
Heck they would not only have their own sovereign nation but also their own sovereign planet!
And we could all watch the "Martial Wars Live!" program on NASA TV or ESA TV!
Watch'all think? :)
Daniel
I was thinking about this...
Find a meteor that is roughly the size of earth. Send a bunch of guys to land on it and affix some sort of device enabling us to propell and guide it. Bring it into the same orbit as earth on the opposite side of the sun and figure out the angle that it needs to rotate in order to maintain it.
Intant terra forma no?
Then we can continue with your plan Cyrano.;)
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1)Give a Sattelite Dish to every muslim house on the planet.
2)Shoot down all Muslim operated Sattelites.
3)Replace with Western operated Sattelites.
4)Start beaming CNN BBC and or any other non-Muslim controlled news to the muslim world so they can hear the other side of the story for once.
It'll take a generation before the attitudes start to change IMO.
How to pay for this? Take the money we spend on Muslim nations now and apply that to the program. Legalize pot and tax the hell out of it. Force tele-marketers to call Muslim housholds overseas every second call...who knows mabey Muslims will enjoy being hassled to buy stuff they'll never need.
Cheers!!
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THEY'LL never have peace, nothing will satisfy them but the extermination of the other people...blah blah blah. Just like the Catholics and Protestants in N. Ireland.
"But that's diffent...blah blah blah"
"We gots to blow them all up, no other solution" LOL
Dickheads.
LOL
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I really think we should just teach all of them to sing "Kumbaya". How could they possibly want to keep killing each other while they are singing "kumbaya"?
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
I really think we should just teach all of them to sing "Kumbaya". How could they possibly want to keep killing each other while they are singing "kumbaya"?
AKDejaVu
That's patently rediculous. The singing of Kumbaya drives people to kill, not make peace.:rolleyes:
:D
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"Bomb 'em all
Bomb 'em all
The Taliban, the Iraquis and all..
Bomb Bin Laden and his bunch of turds..
Bomb anything in Iraq that Bush tells us to!
For they tried to go over the wall!
Raising our gas prices and blowing our skyscrapers y'all!
For it was us they came across , and their butts we burnt off
Cheer up lads! Bomb em all!
Oh Bomb 'em all
Bomb 'em all
The Israelies, the Palestinians and all!
Bomb all the Rabbi's and Martyr's with Turbs,
Bomb all the dipshits we tired of hearing in the tube!
Well, bomb em all! bomb em all!
Bomb all those terrorists and their bloody hosts!
Bomb em so they're not a threat
To our interests and those of most!
If our resolve should ever stall,
well we're due for one hell of a brawl..
BUT Bless them all!
Bless them all!
Bless the Husseins, the Ladens and Arafat's
For letting us test our guns.
No lillies or violets for those dead fanatics
Cheer up my lads, bomb em all!
BUt Bless them all!
Oh, Bless them all!
The US the UN, UK and U' all!
Bless all their efforts and their diplomats
Especially the fat headed ones!
For we are saying goodbye to them all...
The peacenicks , the mullahs and their tiny balls!
So here's to you and lots others,
You can Shove it Up brothers,
We gonna bomb you blokes in the fall!
"
;)
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lol ;)
Some of the fervent 'bomb 'em all' campaigners on this board - you know the real protagonists of the tough-guy approach - ought to start listening to some of the REAL victims over there and their thoughts on the issue.
I saw an interview on the news the other day with 20 year old Israeli girl. She was perfectly sane and reasonable. She had an artificial leg, removed in a suicide bomber's explosion.
Yet did she call for death to all Palestinians? Did she call for harsh military action against the Palestinians?
No. She said the only way forward was a negociated settlement through diplomacy, not through violence.
I find it laughable that a bunch of people so distant from the conflict can spout such fire and brimstone, yet a girl who lost a limb as a direct consequence of that same conflict can be so forgiving and reasonable.
Here's an idea - let's ship Sharon and Arafat to the EU to answer for their respective crimes (war atrocities and terrorism respectively), and let leaders who are not blinded by personal vendetta have a crack at finding a solution.
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A sad state of affairs.
If Arafat really wanted peace with Israel, he would have taken the chance Barak gave him. In the middle east, chances don't get any bigger than that.
Yet, he refused. And he refused to denounce the terrorist ways which have taken him from a small time terrorist to a position of authority; a leader of a nation in exile.
Then, Sharon. The Israeli public was very disappointed that despite the major concessions made by Barak and his willingness to compromise, Israelis were still blown up by bombs. The natural reaction: if they do not want peace, then we need a leader who will ensure they get war.
This whole thing in the Middle East has no chance of settling until both Arafat and Sharon are gone. Even Netanyahu would be preferrable.
It's quite odd, however, how the Palestinians are viewed around the world. In Denmark, there's a split between those who see them a group o displaced people with a very substantial population of extremists who murder innocents, and those who see them as opressed people being brutally opressed and waged war against by a mighty country.
And then there's the view on Palestinians who live in Denmark. 92% unemployment rate amongst Palestinians in Denmark is a good indication about how they're seen from a work ethics point of view. Of course, this is just one side of the coin, but what a side it is.
And in the Arab world, they don't seem to be particularly liked. Sure, Arab nations will encourage tem in the war against the jews: the more Jews that die, the better. Yet they are extremely unwilling when it comes to housing Palestinian refugees, or perhaps giving up some land to help them out. Where is the brotherly love they talk about?
Israel is the only democracy in the region. Perhaps that is why it is even more scary, the tactics they're using. I might be called an antisemite for this, but Jews in general in my experience are pretty exclusionary. Throughout history, this has been the case; always keeping outsiders out, and the own group a very tight knit community. An example: a friend has a Jewish girlfriend. Her father refuses to let her marry him, because he's a Christian - he'll have to convert to Judaism first.
The Israelis need security, the Palestinians land. If it was *this* simple, the situation would have been solved long ago.
Either the Israelis want more than security, or the Palestinians want more than land. I seem to recall some Palestinian groups, *including* Mr Arafat's own, mumbling on about the destruction of Israel.
My heart is with the secular-minded Palestinians AND Israelis. It is in them the hope of peace exists.
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My heart is with the secular-minded Palestinians AND Israelis. It is in them the hope of peace exists.
Amen, brother. Amen.
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Uh, didn't Clinton get the Israeli's to offer Palestinians (Arafat) all of the land he requested? IIRC, Arafat was offered all but 3% of the west bank (that 3% being sacred land in Jerusalem) and he walked away from the table?
The real problem is in finding someone to replace Arafat that will support peace with the Israeli's. Surely, not all Palestinians want this martyrdom-to-the-last man policy? Whoever can come forward to make peace happen will have to be a very brave man indeed.
I got an email today from a friend in South Florida that was just over there. He witnessed Israel's soldiers killing innocent civilians, so this has seriously modified my view of Sharon's agenda. I believe this man, as he's an Israeli/American and not a Palestinian (not that being Palestinian would negate his testimony). His observations of civil rights violations (woman and children stripped bare in the streets in detecting bombs) really says a lot. Other things he wrote about are just too terrible to relate.
It looks like both sides have severe corruption occuring in positions of power. I don't see a solution. To paraphrse StSanta, any hope of peace is going to HAVE to come from the people of both lands.
I would have backed Sharon's use of military power had he been able to maintain discipline within the ranks, had he had the intelligence information to go directly to weapon strongholds, etc. But the house-to-house searches, and abuse of civil rights is just too much.
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Uh, didn't Clinton get the Israeli's to offer Palestinians (Arafat) all of the land he requested? IIRC, Arafat was offered all but 3% of the west bank (that 3% being sacred land in Jerusalem) and he walked away from the table?
The ISraelis offered about 90%, although they wouldn't put it in writing.
However, the sticking points as far as the Palestinians were concerned were that the territory was split up into 4 blocks by Israeli settlements, meaning the West Bank was split up by two Israeli controlled internal frontiers. To go from north West Bank to Sout West bank would mean passing through two Israeli border crossings. The past hast shown the Israelis will close internal borders for long periods to apply pressure to the Palestinian population.
The other main point was that all external borders were also under Israeli control. To go from the West Bank to any other country again required passing through Israeli border crossings.
In other words, all Palestinian movement was to be controlled by Israel, both within the "independant" Palestinian state they were offereing, and between Palestine and the outside world.
Some areas of East Jerusalem were offered, but only individual neighbourhoods, again split up by Israeli territory.
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Imagine there was an Arab leader who tried to defeat the Israelis militarily and finally realized the futility. In fact, he decides it is better to make as good a peace as possible in order to save lives and enjoy the military and economic benefits of being friendly with the US.
Any Arab who fills those shoes is a dead man. Ask Anwar Sadat of Egypt (hope I got the spelling close). Even if Arafat had turned over a new leaf and accepted a deal with Israel, he would have been killed by his own people and replaced by someone with a taste for Jewish blood.
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got an email today from a friend in South Florida that was just over there. He witnessed Israel's soldiers killing innocent civilians, so this has seriously modified my view of Sharon's agenda. I believe this man, as he's an Israeli/American and not a Palestinian (not that being Palestinian would negate his testimony). His observations of civil rights violations (woman and children stripped bare in the streets in detecting bombs) really says a lot. Other things he wrote about are just too terrible to relate.
Can You tell us how that gentleman got to see all these things?
I`m not saying it`s untrue,I just want to make sure the source is valid before I take it for granted.
It`s very sad what`s going on there,but I still think it`s the arabs fault,by not wanting to accept that Israel is there to stay.