Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on April 12, 2002, 05:57:55 PM
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CNN chose to show some really bloody scenes of the latest "homicide bombing" in Jerusalem.
Their office was just a couple blocks away from the bus-stop where the explosion happened.
One of them was talking about how different is to see up close what it`s really like.Seing the not so badly injured walking away from it,covered with pieces of human flesh.
On the other hand they can`t show no evidence of a massacre in Jenin.They`re not let in.
Israelis say the arabs refuse to clear the corpses off the streets,because they know it brings bad publicity for the IDF.
I for myself think there were lots of arabs killed,mostly gunmen,and problably many civilians as well.But I do not belive the IDF went in and killed civilians on purpose.
I don`t care what the arabs say,they`re a bunch of liars.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
But I do not belive the IDF went in and killed civilians on purpose.
I'll paraphrase Toad on this one. Do you think that matters to the dead civilians?
I don`t care what the arabs say,they`re a bunch of liars.
Yes this is true. It's a scientific fact. It is balanced by the fact that no Isreali has ever lied...ever.
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caligula i know your not going to take this the way its ment but what the hell . the things you say are so bent twards the point of view that israel can do no wrong and all palistinians are evil. i think you are having the reverse effect.
you are really commin off as a zelot. if that is your intention carry on.
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Heh, as if the Palestinians need to do *anything* to get the press on their side.
It is amusing in a way. We see armed gunmen taking cover in that church, firing at IDF troops. Then we see Israelis returning fire. Seconds later, the commentator says
"oh, oh, I can now see Israeli soldiers shooting innocent civilans that are seeking refuge inside a church. It looks to me like they're trying to kill these unprotected, helpless people".
I don't trust the press *either way*. The Israelis are full of toejame - what they're doing is BS. The Palestinians are just as full of BS. They're fighting IDF troops with automatic rifles and whatnot, and exploding bombs amongst women and children.
And yes, I am aware that I put all Israelis/Palestinians in under one category and tyhat this is wrong, but if you cannot see my point, then you're not worth the time it takes to make the sentence semantically totally correct. :D.
It's BS all of it in that region. I cannot find a better term for it, really. Sad and terrible, horrific UNNECESSARY BS.
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My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.
That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.
Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.
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My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.
That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.
Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.
smart thinking moose
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I agree. I'm not some kind of blind man. After skimming thru this site it came out as mostly full of information that is decidedly pro-Israeli.
I'm not at all against Israel. If I were one, I would be hopping mad right now too. But...I'm not Israeli. I'm American. My country comes first to me, and when it's secure, then and only then do I have time to be a philanthropist and police man. I'm not even sure I should be those things to be honest. But I do know that the Isreali/Palestinian conflict is probably the catalyst for the majority of the middle eastern hatred towards me and mine.
We either have to make the arab world our enemy, or dump the Isrealis. Going halfway probably won't work.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Yes this is true. It's a scientific fact. It is balanced by the fact that no Isreali has ever lied...ever.
Do you have a copy of Ambrose's "Band of Brothers" handy Thrawn? I lent my copy to a friend, so I cannot quote the paragraph I am referring to, but near the end there is a section where the soldiers make comments about their impressions about various races they had come into contact with. Their impression of the Arabs are quite revealing.
To paraphrase.....all Arabs are cheats and liars and as a people they have no redeeming features.
Don't shoot the messenger.....if you want to flame anyone, flame Ambrose, or the soldiers he interviewed.
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To paraphrase.....all Arabs are cheats and liars and as a people they have no redeeming features.
If you had talked to a group of SS 'supermen' from back in the bad old days, and asked them their opinion of the Jewish race they would have said they were polluters of the Aryan race and were in league with the devil.
There has always been racism, bigotry and hatred. What's your point? Because your post wasn't particurlarly enlightening.
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quote:
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My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.
That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.
Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.
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We'd probably be blamed anyway...
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Isolationism has never solved any of the USA's problems. It only allowed our enemies to get stronger so that we had to fight that much harder when war finally came.
As far as which side I would prefer the US to remain allied with: clearly the Israelis. When Israel has problems with an enemy, she attacks them directly in uniform. The Mossad is only used for exceptional cases and even they abide by very strict rules of engagement when they attack their targets.
The Arabs on the otherhand are indiscriminant. Since they lack the military prowess to fight and win on the battlefield, they attack anyone and everyone around them including themselves. When was the last time a fanatical Israeli flew an airliner into civillian buildings in a foreign country to protest actions taken in their own? The Arabs attack this way on a daily basis.
Does the Israeli military kill civillians? Of course they do. Any military forced to engage the enemy in urban/suburban surroundings will inevitably kill people other than their targets. If the Arabs had the courage to fight openly rather than with terrorist tactics, maybe they wouldn't have that problem... Oh wait, I forgot... they get their butts kicked every time they try that.
Why is it that some of the richest countries in the world (Arab oil producing countries) can't fight their own wars? They had to bring in Soviets (and in recent years Americans). Israelis received a lot of arms and money from the West, but Arabs have plenty of money to buy even more arms and certainly don't need any money or troops from the West. Yet the outnumbered Israelis have gone undefeated for 50 years. The Arabs have failed to understand their enemies and how to beat them. I feel no pity for them as Israel does no less than the US would if it were being suicide bombed on a daily basis. The Palestinians should be happy we never gave Israel a wing of B-52s and a stock of iron bombs to go with them, because that is what the whole Middle East is going to face if this conflict expands any wider.
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Originally posted by moose
My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.
That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.
Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.
While I think you are right, I happen to feel that the US will be blamed for whatever happens after we would pull out. Why? Because we didn't take a more active part in the process for stabalizing the area.
That being said, I think that we should pull out and let them figure it out for themselves.
Just my 2/5 of a nickel's worth.
-math
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On the other hand they can`t show no evidence of a massacre in Jenin.They`re not let in.
Israelis say the arabs refuse to clear the corpses off the streets,because they know it brings bad publicity for the IDF.
I for myself think there were lots of arabs killed,mostly gunmen,and problably many civilians as well.But I do not belive the IDF went in and killed civilians on purpose.
But without the 4th estate to confirm or denie whats going on you really don't know what to belive.
quote from Moose
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My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.
That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.
Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.
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smart thinking moose
Good Caligula I'm glad your starting to come around. That really is smart thinking on the part of Moose. Why live in a welfare prison when you can be free to make your own decisions about income... Moving off welfare is a step up.
Oh Caligula, some reporters did manage to slip into Jenin.
Suzanne Goldenberg in Jenin
Friday April 12, 2002
The Guardian
An exodus was under way yesterday from the refugee camp that endured the bloodiest battle of Israel's military offensive, with Palestinians bearing horrifying accounts of a systematic campaign of destruction and abuse.
Hundreds of Palestinians fled the camp yesterday, an empty, smoking ruin resounding to bursts of Israeli machine gun fire. They left behind entire neighbourhoods flattened to make way for Israeli armour.
Some of the wrecking missions were launched while women and children were inside their homes. The operation began with rocketing from helicopter gunships and bulldozers moved in to finish the job.
They also told of the use of human shields for Israeli army patrols, and the random strafing of heavily populated civilian areas, killing elderly women and young boys and girls.
Those fleeing were dirty, exhausted and desperately hungry. Doctors in Jenin say 15 babies were sick after their mothers fed them powdered milk and sewage run-off from streets where bodies were left to rot for days.
A few also claimed to have witnessed a summary execution and the dumping of the dead - at least 150 Palestinians were killed in the camp by the Israeli army count - into mass graves.
The stories of executions and disposal of the dead could not be verified as the Israeli army has encircled the camp with tanks, and shot at, or arrested, journalists approaching the area. The Guardian was among a handful of newspapers whose reporters managed to enter the town yesterday.
But the accounts of the massive destruction of civilian homes, and of the firing on civilians, could be confirmed as they also occurred in the town of Jenin, suggesting a widespread and systematic pattern of human rights abuses that is only now beginning to emerge.
Ali Mustafa Abu Siria, 43, an Arabic teacher, was carried to hospital on a ladder - nursing a gunshot wound to the left knee that had gone untreated for four days. Doctors said it was badly infected.
He was injured while serving as a human shield for an Israeli army patrol, who led him out of his home handcuffed and at gunpoint on Friday. He was forced to walk ahead of the troops - and the army sniffer dogs - as they underwent the perilous business of house-to-house searches, hunting down Palestinian militants and weapons caches.
Mr Abu Siria was shot at the 12th house. "As soon as I knocked on the door, a bullet was fired at me, he said. He believes he was shot by a second Israeli army patrol, which was on the first floor of a neighbouring house.
"The two groups of soldiers started screaming at each other," he said. "Then they left me. I started dragging myself on the ground until I reached the house of a neighbour. The army did not do anything for me."
A similar picture of a widespread disregard for civilian casualties by the Israeli army is also emerging in Jenin city. Doctors at al-Razi hospital said a man bled to death on its doorstep after soldiers prevented medics from retrieving his body.
A burst of machine-gun fire from a helicopter gunship in a residential neighbourhood of Jenin on Wednesday killed a young man, who was outside charging up his mobile phone on a car battery, and injured Rina Zaid, 15, in the chest.
All but one ambulance driver from Jenin's general hospital has been arrested by the Israeli army, so her family ripped a door off its hinges and carried her to hospital on foot.
At dusk last night, the refugee camp was hit by 10 explosions in the space of an hour - a parting act of destruction as the Israeli army "mops up" what it calls an infrastructure of terror operating from inside.
A new wave of refugees streamed out of the camp - including many children - scavenging for food. A few hours earlier, Riyad Ghalib Damaj, 28, a produce seller, also smuggled himself out with a group of women and children fleeing the camp, taking advantage of a brief lifting of the curfew in Jenin.
"There are no houses left in the refugee camp; there is only a highway. There are countless numbers of houses destroyed. If you saw them you would go crazy," he said.
"So many rockets were fired on our house from helicopters because three soldiers were killed nearby, and there are only two families left inthe neighbourhood."
Lovely people you support there Cal
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Originally posted by Dowding
If you had talked to a group of SS 'supermen' ...
You know, the one thing about this conflict, that recurs more than anything else, is parables from the past. I submit that the fuggin' Nazi's don't matter at all in this situation. Neither, do Native Americans, nor the slave trade, nor what happened in Israel, nor anywhere else in 1948, nor any other time.
If, if, if,... It's pointless.
What is obvious? It's obvious that Arafat makes a very poor leader. Perhaps, he's the best choice for Palestine, only Palestinians can say. It sure looks to me like Arafat realizes that peace will only obviate his greatest weakness (inability to lead). I do not believe he is capable of establishing any form of government. Trying might even get him killed by his own. It sure looks like he has two choices. Either, Arafat fights Israel, or Arafat fights Arabs.
I've talked to a man that lived in Palestine for a time. He reported that Palestinians do not rebuild damage that has been done by Israeli's. Why? Who knows? You could surmise that 'they' (whoever they are) want the damage to remain as evidence of Israeli cruelty. But, from the outside, it's difficult to say precisely what either side is thinking (if they are thinking at all).
Cal, what are the chances of Sharon being replaced? What kind of timeline are we talking about, concerning such a replacement? Are the majority of Israeli's behind him, or is there a growing concern about his intentions? Is there a feeling amongst Israeli's that he is doing a good job, or is there a feeling that he is abusing his military power?
We know that the attacks are terrible and brutal. How is your country, as a people, responding to these events?
What, in your opinon, is it going to take to end the violence?
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10Bears, it wasn't a Palestinian that shot that man? Snipers are shooting anyone that looks like they're helping Israeli's. Many of the buildings destroyed were booby-trapped, many of the explosives were set by poorly trained individuals that have killed themselves setting the trap. Yeah, I'm sure Israeli's are violating human rights, too.
Reporters are resorting to hearsay when they can't get into areas. This is an extremely ineffective way to discern truth. It's not surprising, though, as that's how it is done these days. It's a poor way to do their job, though.
Taking a stab at Cal might make you feel good, but you're slant makes you look worse then the media. At least we have Cal's account to compare the media's slant with.
I suggest we take both with a grain of salt, but refrain from insults.
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I belive Sharon`s election came as a last resort for the israelis.
He was called upon to do the dirty work.He knows and doesn`t care that he`s considered a war criminal.He is a man who`s willing to sacrifice himself and take the blame for the people of Israel.
Talks had been going on for many years without any result.
Arab armies and terrorists just kept coming trying to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.There`s no mistake taken in seing what`s the arabs real intention is.
So Sharon was elected and given a free hand to go play hard ball.
After all, since he`s invasion there are lot less terror attacks,many key terrorists caught,weapons and explosives seized,bomb factories destroyed.And Arafat finally condemned terrorism...even if only to save he`s position.I don`t think that will stop scuicide attacks,but it will show Arafat has no control,and palestinians need a real leader who knows what he`s doing.
I can`t tell You how much longer he`s going to be in office,but I don`t belive it`s going to be much longer.
When it`s time to sit down to do talks,Sharon will step aside.
But while it`s still time to kick arab bellybutton (sad but true) he`s the right man to do it.
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I know it might seem that things are cooling down over the next few weeks, but keep your head down anyway. I wouldn't be trusting the situation at face value ever again, after all the trouble you've seen recently. Frankly, I don't know how Israeli's show the temperance they do.
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I`m not there Voss,I live in CA now.But I`m about to move there and start a new life as soon as I can get my paperwork done.
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On a sidenote:
Israeli highschool kids take a trip to Poland to see first hand what happened to their ancestors.They visit the camps,and experience the horror that is beyond all imagination.
What it teaches them,is not to let it ever happen again.
Not to ever wait for other people to come and save You.
Not to ever walk into gas-chambers like sheep.
We are a people who`s been the subject of pogroms,discrimination,and mass extermination.
Since the fundation of Israel,arabs been hell bent on trying to destroy her and the jews who live there.We can`t wait for others to save us,because they just might not come.
Should we just accept the fact that we must die,and be nice to our murderers,so they can do it confortably?
I don`t think so.It won`t happen.
NEVER AGAIN
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In California, you REALLY need to keep your head down!
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I`m not affraid.
Even thogh there was a man walking he`s dog the other day,wearing a kipa.He was attacked by an arab right on the street.Nothing major,but might be a sign of things to come.
This happened just a few blocks away from here.
I`m not scared,but still worried for the women and childeren of the community.
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dont suppose you have a cite on that one ? seems like it would make the news. or did you hear it at the synagogue?
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It did make the news.
It was both on channel 10 news,and in the Sacramento Bee.
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http://www.sacbee.com
need your help i did a search under kipa,yarmulka, jew, arab attack even dog and nothing at all. not saying your a liar but can you help me find the artical?
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Here You go (http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/2150405p-2542644c.html)
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Sometimes I wonder whether the culture coming from the middle east differs vastly on the area of war/enemies.
In Europe, we've fought two world wars. Both times, the Americans have been drawn in. In the latest bout, it took the combined effort of the 'free world' to destroy an unequaled tyranny.
Yet here we are, 60 years laters, all pals. Sure, Danes will make jokes about the German tourists who make bunkers on our beaches to protect themselves from the wind, but it stays like that. There's no hatred between nations.
Denmark and Sweden were at war for some 142 years since the 1300's. That's pretty much I think, yet today the worst punches that are thrown are usually over soccer games or which beer is the best.
What I am saying is that with some exceptions, reconciliation has been possible in Europe.
Yet in the middle east, this seems to be utterly impossible.We see very little reconciliation. Afghanistan is a big maybe, today it's very polarized and divided between tribal lines.
I wonder if there exists a culture of reconciliation in thje middle east as there is in Europe. Before such a one is in place, I cannot see how there can be peace at all.
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thanks caligula. scary read.
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You know, the one thing about this conflict, that recurs more than anything else, is parables from the past.
They do if people are making points based on 'I met this bloke down the pub who spent some time with [Insert Ethnic Group]. He said they were a bunch of dirty thieves.'
I.e. you will always find people ready to say negative things about any group of people, from every period of history.
Reporters are resorting to hearsay when they can't get into areas. This is an extremely ineffective way to discern truth. It's not surprising, though, as that's how it is done these days. It's a poor way to do their job, though.
There was a report form BBC reporters who got into Jenin on the news last night. They went around the destroyed, collapsed buildings found some bodies and described the stench of death that pervaded the area.
The Israelis say they have only killed militant gunmen.
The Palestinians say a civillian massacre has occured.
I believe the truth lies somewhere in between.
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The Israelis say they have only killed militant gunmen.
The Palestinians say a civillian massacre has occured.
I believe the truth lies somewhere in between.
Palestinians refuse to clean up the dead bodies off the streets.
They know it`s bad publicity for the IDF.They booby-trap and load up houses with explosives (their bomb factories were in civilian houses) and fight a house to house battle,with civilians still inside those houses.The scucide bomber in the ambush where 13 israeli soldier died,was a 10 years old child.
I wasn`t there ,but someone told me soldiers were screaming at eachother to shoot at the kid,but none could bring themselves to kill him.He blew them up,and all died in the end.
This is horror beyond all imagination.
Even when Hitler was sending kids to battle,he told them to fight,not to die for sure.
This shows just how much they value human life,and what kind of enemy Israel is cursed to fight.
Today on CNN a palestinian pschycaetrist when asked if scuicide bombers were considered heroes by the general population.
He said "Yes.Our martyrs are like the unknown soldiers of the USA in WWII and Vietnam.We don`t have planes and tanks,our martyrs are the only weapon we got"
So even the educated palestinian sees nothing wrong with this madness.And he even has the gutts to compare these murders to the people who died for freedom and democracy.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
NEVER AGAIN
What if it is happening again...in the West Bank?
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What if it is happening again...in the West Bank?
What if not?
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
What if not?
I'm willing to except that possiblity. Are you will to except the possibility that it is?
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Originally posted by 10Bears
"There are no houses left in the refugee camp; there is only a highway. There are countless numbers of houses destroyed. If you saw them you would go crazy," he said.
I wonder if this individual even knows about the World Trade Center. Did he take part in the celebration in the streets? Not that the two are related in any way.
While, the worlds eyes are upon Jenin, are our enemies of 9/11 preparing themselves for another attack? You can bet they are.
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I'm willing to except that possiblity. Are you will to except the possibility that it is?
No!!!
Palestinians are not rounded up,forced on cettle cars and deported somewhere for extermination.
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LOL - No they are not deported anywhere. The israeli troops kill the palestines just in their refugee camps and then bury them hurriedly by bulldozers.
Great difference...
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LOL - No they are not deported anywhere. The israeli troops kill the palestines just in their refugee camps and then bury them hurriedly by bulldozers.
Do You have any proof?
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Yes.
Just read the latest information about the order of the israeli high court which prohibited today the army to bury the dead palestines in mass graves in Jenin until the circumstances of their death is checked.
And even the german ambassador of Israel has confirmed today in German TV at 21:45 german time that hundreds of palestines were killed AND BURIED in Jenin.
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And even the german ambassador of Israel has confirmed today in German TV at 21:45 german time that hundreds of palestines were killed AND BURIED in Jenin.
I`m glad to hear that relations between Israel and Germany are so good,the ambassador gets to go to closed military zones.
I just love how the whole world thinks jews are a bunch of idiots.
If there was a real massacre and mass graves,what would be the point of denying it.Those mass graves would be found and unearthed right after the IDF pulls out.
Do You think they`re using crematoriums to burn the corpses,so nobody can find them later?
Oh wait....that was an other nations practice....
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So - Stiefelchen - you dont trust the informations of the Israeli High Court or the Israelis ambassador in Germany?
Maybe in the next days and weeks you will get more reliable information-sources, which will satisfy you more.
But the fact remains, that the actual sources which are speaking about mass graves of palestine civilians in the refugee camps are not from the anti-israeli or neutral sector but from israeli officials.
So I consider them as reliable.
If you think that the israeli ambassador talked nonsense, maybe you should ask him why he confirmed the mass-graves reports.
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I take CNN as reliable news source.
They said the IDF is about to collect the dead ,identify them,than return them to their families for burial.If relatives not found the IDF will bury them,with no religious ceremony.
The palestinians refuse to collect the dead bodies,they use them in their propaganda campaign against Israel.
The Israeli High Court sets out guidelines on how to deal with this problem,and making sure there are no things like mass graves,wich is not a human way of barying people.It does not mean that mass graves have allready been used.
BTW I think a mass grave is still better than rotting bodies spreading pestillence on the streets.Off course your dear friends don`t mind them,they don`t mind straping explosives on 10years olds either.
In the next few weeks You will see,most the palestinian claims are just lies.Off course You will not belive,and yell "COVER UP"
,but than again,who gives a toejam what You think.
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LOL - yes, take CNN as a reliable source - it fits perfectly to you.
You define the arabs collectivly as subhumans and even deny facts when they are presented by israelian representatives themself.
Half a century ago many germans had the same behaviour like you, when they defended in discussions the treatment of the jews.
If it wouldnt be so tragic it would be funny to see how the things have changed.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
The palestinians refuse to collect the dead bodies,they use them in their propaganda campaign against Israel.
Refusing to collect all the dead bodies as part of a propaganda campaign against Isreal, eh? I bet they all shot themselves as well, clever bastards.
The Israeli High Court sets out guidelines on how to deal with this problem,and making sure there are no things like mass graves,wich is not a human way of barying people.
Not human(e?), eh? Well that was exactly what the IDF was planning on doing, until the Red Cross got an injunctioni.
BTW I think a mass grave is still better than rotting bodies spreading pestillence on the streets.
Now the damn arabs are spreading disease, by getting themselves shot!! clever bastards.
In the next few weeks You will see,most the palestinian claims are just lies.Off course You will not belive,and yell "COVER UP"
No, the facts will come out. You seem to be the king of rationalisations here.
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CNN? I preferred their take on the situation to some of the things I've read on the net, but... in the American media CNN is known as the Communist News Network. Okay, I had to say it.
Jenin will be open to inspectors in about six hours.
Something tells me Israeli soldiers have been too busy to be digging mass graves, but we'll soon know.
My exposure to news coverage has been limited over the last few months. What I have seen indicates woefully inadequate tactics by the Palestinians. Principally, taking refuge precisely where they shouldn't (i.e. in civilian homes). Given that fact, and booby-trapped homes and bodies, it would seem any investigation is going to take considerable time.
Rather, then endanger troops, I would have ordered bulldozers myself; if not daisy cutters. Surely, you must have noticed the lack of air power. That demonstrates some restraint, at least.
I just hope Sharon allows the situation in the north to settle down on its own.
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You define the arabs collectivly as subhumans and even deny facts when they are presented by israelian representatives themself.
Just where have I said they were subhumans?
They are humans,humans that are hell bent on destroying me,my people and my country.They are my enemy,and I`m happy to see them dead.If it takes 500 arabs killed to save 1 jewish child,than it`s justified to me.
Thrawn
While You`re developing skills of twisting words around are impressive,I think You still need some practice before You can step in the PLO propaganda department to replace those bastards who were taken out by the IDF.
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Oh, I'm not a fan of palastinian terrorists. Just against the slaughter of civilians...any civilians. Isreali citizens as well.
Your people? I thought you were a yank.
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Somehow, I don't think the word 'slaughter' is appropriate.
I know if a neighboring country invaded my hometown, and fighting had been ongoing for more then a few hours, I'd be somewhere else (or fighting back).
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I can't remember how many times I've read these Middle East threads (too bloody many), and in none of them have I ever seen a concensus of view or a vague hint of a conclusion. For me, that says it all about this conflict, unresolvable as long as there are two sides involved. I'm guessing that this thing will drag on until either one, or both sides realises that this thing will only be resolved when one side is out of the equasion. Permanently, and if the last 50 years is anything to go by my money's on Israel. ( I wonder if William Hill will take bets on it?? :P)
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hehe if cnn is the comunist news network what is FOXnews faciast organization experiment?
im on the left for shure but fox seems more outlandish in its one sided support of a ideaology. took it off my favorites on the satilite after one particularly bad screaming session by the blond dude that wont let anyone to the left of el duce talk.
yes im a democrat but damb id be pissed it they talked about conservitives on cnn the way the talk about democrats/liberals on fox.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Sometimes I wonder whether the culture coming from the middle east differs vastly on the area of war/enemies.
In Europe, we've fought two world wars. Both times, the Americans have been drawn in. In the latest bout, it took the combined effort of the 'free world' to destroy an unequaled tyranny.
Yet here we are, 60 years laters, all pals. Sure, Danes will make jokes about the German tourists who make bunkers on our beaches to protect themselves from the wind, but it stays like that. There's no hatred between nations.
Denmark and Sweden were at war for some 142 years since the 1300's. That's pretty much I think, yet today the worst punches that are thrown are usually over soccer games or which beer is the best.
What I am saying is that with some exceptions, reconciliation has been possible in Europe.
Yet in the middle east, this seems to be utterly impossible.We see very little reconciliation. Afghanistan is a big maybe, today it's very polarized and divided between tribal lines.
I wonder if there exists a culture of reconciliation in thje middle east as there is in Europe. Before such a one is in place, I cannot see how there can be peace at all.
yep and since we french don't hate any more the Germans we have learned to hate the Danes ;)
Oups ... sorry boss my bad :D
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,,And we got this french guy,who is married to our Queen,,,,,,,
we love to hate him:D ,,,,
Also we hate the Brit`s,they stole our fleet,,,,195 years ago,just
because wew bet on the wrong horse,,,FRANCE
;)
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Pretty damned stupid to bet on the French, I'd say.
We pay for the sins of our forefathers...:D
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Originally posted by moose
My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.
That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.
Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.
Agreed, but to become an isolationist carrys a price too (See USA isolationism from 1936, when Japan invaded Burma til Dec. 1941)
Damned if we do, damned if we don't. :(
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Aggreed.
The big problem is that,if America choose to pull out of there,and let these maniacs run loose,on a few years they`ll have nukes.
And that`s a big diddlying mess.
Do You think someone who would strap bombs on their own kids would care about the consequences of a nuklear war?
They must be crushed before it`s too late!!!!!
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They must be crushed before it`s too late!!!!!
You're starting to sound like a blood-crazed genocidal maniac. Ironically, you sit on the side lines thousands of miles from the 'action', while many Israelis in the thick of see Sharon's methods as counter-productive and ultimately destructive.
Your comments would be consistent with those of a 20 year old Israeli girl who had a leg blown off in a suicide attack. But they are not - I happened to see such an interview. She showed more sense and reason in 50 words than you've displayed in a thousand.
She's the one with the artificial leg, yet she saw peace could not come from violence.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Let me guess..You think Chamberlain was a good leader too.
Peaceloving....true...but failed to see where the setuation was really heading.
It`s very shameful and disappointing how things are these days,but shoving the head in sand and waiting for things to sort out by themselves just doesn`t work.
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Hmmm. Aid workers and media still not allowed in Jenin.
bbc -- > "Our correspondent said any buildings still standing were marked with gunfire. "
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Things are beginning to look very bad for the IDF, Caligula.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/18/mideast.crisis/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937387.stm
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Number of dead still not clear,and no massgraves found yet.
It sure looks horrible,but that`s war.They chose to fight in the city to the last man.They got what they wanted,and their civilians paid the price,just like in any other war.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
They chose to fight in the city to the last man.They got what they wanted,and their civilians paid the price,just like in any other war.
Who is this they. The Palastinian refugges? They wanted to fight to the last man? What's given you this idea?
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They said so