Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Revvin on April 13, 2002, 06:27:13 PM
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AH is spoilt by a nice selection of low level bombers, one of my personal favourites is the Mosquito but so many others make great attack fighters but their hindered somewhat by the lack of having a fuse delay for their ordnance which can mean sometimes losing your tail section if you don't perform some pretty drastic evasives.
Would it be possible to either select a bomb load with a preset fuse delay in the hangar or maybe have a .fuse command so you could set it in flight or maybe have to set it before take-off? (perhaps the latter being a bit more realistic) I saw a documentary some time ago where a veteran Mosquito pilot spoke how the RAF typically used an 11 sec fuse delay for attacking ground targets and shipping. They would fly toward s aship and wait till almost the mast was out of sight, drop the bomb and the fuse delay would allow the bomb to hit the side of the ship, sink slightly below the waterline and then explode.
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yes this would be great imho. but as they are now the dont arm until xx time.
This was added to stop carpet bombers.
.fusedelay or .fuse would be great.
Also I like the base under attack alert. But I wish it was keyyed to trigger when ever ack goes off at a base. Right now theres a bit too much advanced warning. The reason i bring this up is noe raids.
a few noe mossie's with a fuse delay could come screaming across a twn.
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I know there is a .delay command to go with the .salvo command.
delay is from .05 to 1.0
Pokie
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that is a delay for when the next bomb is dropped not a fuse delay.
ie .salvo 4 .delay .08
drops 4 bombs with a .08 delay between each bomb. 1 st bomb wait .08 next bomb wait .08 etc.
This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. He is talking about delay the detonation of the bomb so that when you drop lo you have time to get out of the way before the bomb explodes.
ie .fusedelay .3 (3 secs) you fly at 250 drop the bomb impacts but detonates 3 secs later giving you a chance to get clear.
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Yes the .delay command is the time in milliseconds between each bomb being released, its used to good effect when carpet bombing.
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Would be nice, specially if they added bombs such as those anti armor bombs LW used sometimes, dropped them and let them bounce with delay.
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Could'nt resist a little visual stimulant :)
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Would it be possible to either select a bomb load with a preset fuse delay in the hangar or maybe have a .fuse command so you could set it in flight or maybe have to set it before take-off? (perhaps the latter being a bit more realistic) I saw a documentary some time ago where a veteran Mosquito pilot spoke how the RAF typically used an 11 sec fuse delay for attacking ground targets and shipping. They would fly toward s aship and wait till almost the mast was out of sight, drop the bomb and the fuse delay would allow the bomb to hit the side of the ship, sink slightly below the waterline and then explode.
I understand what you are getting at... but do you realize what you are actually asking for?
You have requested a feature that does not have a practical aplication in the game right now. To do what you're asking, bomb skipping, ricochette and above water vs below water (not to mention sinking effect) would need to be modeled.
Basically... in the current arenas... the timing delay would serve no purpose.
AKDejaVu
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Great idea, no more click BOOM (you are dead) for very low bomb drops.
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time fuzed bombs were used for low alt drops on armor ...
i know the allies used them in the battle of france against the panzer columns. don't think they had a lot of success
but for gameplay perhpas bomb just detonates after fuze delay at the point in which it stopped movin....
SKurj
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Deja> It has a very real use in the arena, low alt drops often lead to death for the pilot unless he makes very drastic manouvres to avoid the bomb blast which leaves the plane very vunerable to either field ack or GV's. With a fuse delay you get a fighting chance to perform low alt drops.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
I understand what you are getting at... but do you realize what you are actually asking for?
You have requested a feature that does not have a practical aplication in the game right now. To do what you're asking, bomb skipping, ricochette and above water vs below water (not to mention sinking effect) would need to be modeled.
Basically... in the current arenas... the timing delay would serve no purpose.
AKDejaVu
he wants it so the bomb doesn't blow his arse off after he droped it
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I'd like this as well, tho' it would require HTC to model what happens to bombs after impact.
In relation to this you must also remember that bombs must now travel 1000 feet before arming. This was put in place to stop car-bombers, for which I was heartily grateful, but it strikes me as a bit excessive: 100-200' seems more appropriate.
I used to regularly take out VHs with high speed, low-level runs in tiffies. After the arming delay was added I couldn't do this anymore as most of the runs resulted in hits with unarmed bombs.
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you mean:
(http://www.planestuff.com/lib/planestuff/b24railsplit.gif)
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he wants it so the bomb doesn't blow his arse off after he droped it
I know why he wants it. This is not the cure for that ailement. The cure for not blowing yourself up is dropping your bombs from higher up or breaking as soon as you release them. No fuse in the world is going to save you if you keep flying straight and level NOE after releasing your bombs.
AKDejaVu
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I know why he wants it. This is not the cure for that ailement. The cure for not blowing yourself up is dropping your bombs from higher up or breaking as soon as you release them. No fuse in the world is going to save you if you keep flying straight and level NOE after releasing your bombs.
I'm sorry but that statement is wrong, Mosquito pilots used a 11 sec fuse, this gives plenty of time for a Mosquito to be away from the bomb blast flying at 250MPH+. NOE raids were one of the Mosquito's more memorable roles not to mention a whole host of other planes which dropped bombs at low alt with a fuse delay so why should we have to drop from a higher altitude if it was a tactic well used by the real planes? breaking as soon as you release is also pointless, you either get chewed up by ack or GV's, a fuse delay was the answer in RL as it is here for AH its as simple as that.
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Sorry revvin.. but if its dropped NOE... its going to keep skipping and detonate too close to the aircraft. The sinking situation was the only potential protector.. or it colliding with an object... which is a risky move.
If it had some kind of retarded fins on it.. it would slow it making the impact behind the plane... but a bomb being dropped at 250 mph is going to want to keep going in that direction and at that speed.
BTW.. any idea how long it takes for a bomb (or anything) to drop 500 feet?
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
retarded fins on it..
now now, no need for racist remarks!!:)
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I always thought that a fuse-delay had nothing to do with protecting the bomber aircraft but rather this is the job of some type of retardation device on the actual bomb. The fuse-delay controls where the bomb explodes, that is, how deep into the ground it drives itself before exploding. I guess this would also have an affect on skip-bombing as well as already mentioned.
I learned that a modern bomb has a natural 6-mil error. Dropped from high altitude, this would be quite some distance on the ground. More than a fuse delay, I'd like to see a 6-mil error applied to the fall of bombs in Aces High. This would make the current bombing less precise/pinpoint and require a more historical carpet-bombing tactic.
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Originally posted by Steven
This would make the current bombing less precise/pinpoint and require a more historical carpet-bombing tactic.
Carpet bombing would be great.....if we have an accurate blast radius modelled. Without the blast radius modelled, nobody would fly bombers if they couldnt depend on their bombs hitting the target they were dropped on.
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Sorry revvin.. but if its dropped NOE... its going to keep skipping and detonate too close to the aircraft. The sinking situation was the only potential protector.. or it colliding with an object... which is a risky move
I don't know how easy I have to make this for you Deja...count 11 seconds as accurately as you can, now imagine how far away a plane flying at 250-300mph will be from that initial point. A direct hit and the bomb is going nowhere and lets face it thats what we are aiming to do score a direct hit, it hits the side of a tank and does'nt do much else, if it hits soft ground or grass its not going to go far but even if it hits hard ground on tarmac its losing energy with every 'skip' or 'bounce' and certainlty won't keep up with an unhindered plane flying at 250mph-300mph.
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I learned that a modern bomb has a natural 6-mil error. Dropped from high altitude, this would be quite some distance on the ground. More than a fuse delay, I'd like to see a 6-mil error applied to the fall of bombs in Aces High. This would make the current bombing less precise/pinpoint and require a more historical carpet-bombing tactic.
In a perfect world I'd have no problem with such a realistic feature but the fact is that targetsin AH require pretty much direct hits or they are not destroyed. Can't place the cart before the horse.
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AKDjV some bombs had timed fuses; They could blow up in few secs after they hit ground or in some cases; few days after the drop depending timer.
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Wasn't the fuse setting primarily put in place to keep people from carbombing? (for those who don't know, carbombing was the practice of taking bombers on vulched fields and dropping large eggs when an nme fiter straffed you so that you could take him with you in the blast)
How would you include a fuse function that would keep carbombing from coming back?
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Simple: Disable bomb drops on the ground, just like the gunners are disabled while the buff is on the ground.
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Originally posted by Preon1
Wasn't the fuse setting primarily put in place to keep people from carbombing?
Carbombing was not necessarily the thing that was being fixed. It was people pointing out that bombs needed to turn the veigns to arm the bomb. That should not happen when the plane is sitting still on the ground. HT agreed.
If you impliment a timed delay... you are now able to do it again. Unless you impliment a totally unrealistic control to keep car bombing in check.
Man.. imagine what a timed delay would do to vulching. You swoop in on a plane rolling down the runway and notice a black spot 200 yards behind him and right below you... then BOOM!.
AKDejaVu
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One thing that seems to have been missed here is that without retardation there is a serious real risk that a bomb dropped at very low level will bounce up and destroy the dropping aircraft even with a fuse delay. In real life, breaking immediately after release didn't guarantee safe passage as the bomb didn't always bounce straight.
So overall, I feel that the existing risk in AH of fragging yourself with your own ordnance when releasing at very low level (assuming the bomb travels at least 1000ft after release) is a reasonable simulation of the real time risks.
Btw, as I understand it, fuse delays were set for various reasons. Sometimes just to allow the bomber to clear the blast area, sometimes to make bomb clearance more hazardous. (Delayed action.) I think the delay built-in to bombs like the Tallboy wasn't connected to the arming fuse itself, but to an inertia switch that sensed the actual impact and fired the detonator about half a second later after the bomb had penetrated the concrete.
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What about adding parafrags instead of fuse delayed bombs?
I quote:
"The 345th Air Apaches
The 345th Medium Bombardment Group, "The Air Apaches" were widely known in the Southwest Pacific theatre. Their brightly painted Falcon (498th Sqdn), Bat (499th Sqdn), Bat (500th Sqdn) and Panther (501st Sqdn) Mitchell B-25 twin engine bombers flew at low level, often at tree-top height. Converted to gun nosed B-25's, with up to 12 forward firing fifty caliber machine guns they were well respected and feared by the Japanese. Used in conjunction with the heavy firepower were parafrag bombs, bombs using parachutes to allow the bomber to move away to a safe distance before detonation."
[ http://www.web-birds.com/5th/345/345th.html ]
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Why is it that all good post have to put up with AKDejaVu? you my friend have way too much time on your hands....
the fuse delay is a great idea btw
and AKDejaVu some advice go outside look at the sun you remember what that is...maybe we need to put a limit on how many post per day..um in his case per hour...
so all do respect shutup for awhile all you do is instigate crap
and too all others sorry about rant just sick of his useless post :p
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Originally posted by Revvin
I don't know how easy I have to make this for you Deja...count 11 seconds as accurately as you can, now imagine how far away a plane flying at 250-300mph will be from that initial point.
And during this 11 seconds... what was the bomb doing? Just sitting there?
A direct hit and the bomb is going nowhere and lets face it thats what we are aiming to do score a direct hit, it hits the side of a tank and does'nt do much else, if it hits soft ground or grass its not going to go far but even if it hits hard ground on tarmac its losing energy with every 'skip' or 'bounce' and certainlty won't keep up with an unhindered plane flying at 250mph-300mph.
Ah... a "direct hit in the vertical" and the bomb isn't really going to go anywhere. Bombs will skip, bounce and ricochet with the best of them from virtually any other angle.
Really... if it hits any ground.. its going to skip... or bounce... or shoot straight up. If it hits a tree... what does it do then? If it hits just short of a target... what happens? If it is coming in from a flat trajectory and hits on the open side of a hangar... what happens?
Bombs don't hit the ground and just stop. That concept is so flawed that this whole argument is moot. What you are asking for is either a)totally unrealistic or b)involves HTC completely modeling an "after impact" effect with every bomb dropped.
AKDejaVu
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AKD,
Firstly, Bombs designed to explode after a delay, whether it be the 11 second delay bombs designed to allow a bomber to safely exit the blast zone, or the purpose-built UXBs used by the Germans (and later the allies) where a historical fact of the Second World War, there were far more of them than say Ostwinds, and apparently they did not totally disrupt gameplay there.
Secondly, having bombs that "stick" is not as unrealistic as you maintain. Fuse delayed bombs dropped from altitudes over a 1000 ft tended to bore into soft ground, also we already have bullets that do not ricochet and bombs that are gloriously unaffected by the wind (the same goes for bullets/shells) so maintaining absolute real world ballistic purity is obviously not our prime directive.
Lastly, the parafrags that I mentioned would address all the concerns you've mentioned. When they hit the ground (or target), they explode, the delay is only in the amount of time it takes them to actually reach the ground. Why would this be difficult or unrealistic to model?
- Seagoon
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A percentage of bombs will either skip or stick and there is no hard and fast rule to say what percentage this would be, as Seagoon says we have bullets that do not ricochet so are you now going to lobby to get those modelled correctly?
Count 11 seconds, now consider each bounce or skip shaving off alot of energy and add an 11 sec fuse...how far away do you think an unhindered plane will be flying at 250-300mph? its your argument that is flawed. Not once did I ask for a bomb that sticks in the ground every time so kindly stop trying to put words into my mouth or are you so short of a valid reason for not having this feature that is all thats left for you to do?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
AKD,
Firstly, Bombs designed to explode after a delay, whether it be the 11 second delay bombs designed to allow a bomber to safely exit the blast zone, or the purpose-built UXBs used by the Germans (and later the allies) where a historical fact of the Second World War, there were far more of them than say Ostwinds, and apparently they did not totally disrupt gameplay there.
Firstly, these bombs were also dropped from a high angle of attack... divebombing. If its not going to detonate on impact... there needs to be a manner of ensuring it is dropped on target. Once again... what would happen to these bombs if dropped by a plane NOE?Secondly, having bombs that "stick" is not as unrealistic as you maintain. Fuse delayed bombs dropped from altitudes over a 1000 ft tended to bore into soft ground,
Ah.. so now we have to bump it over 1000 ft to prove the point? Doesn't that make the issue kinda moot once again? The bombs aren't currently a problem over 1000 feet. also we already have bullets that do not ricochet
Are you sure about that? They sure as hell seem to be modeled to ricochet off of armor. and bombs that are gloriously unaffected by the wind (the same goes for bullets/shells)
Ah... we need to pop this one up again. A fun one that hasn't been brought up in a while is just how little the wind affects a bomb's trajectory. But throw it in there anyway.so maintaining absolute real world ballistic purity is obviously not our prime directive.
Who is our? I do believe it is HTC's objective to keep it as close as possible.Lastly, the parafrags that I mentioned would address all the concerns you've mentioned. When they hit the ground (or target), they explode, the delay is only in the amount of time it takes them to actually reach the ground. Why would this be difficult or unrealistic to model?
I don't believe it would be difficult or unrealistic. I don't believe I've adressed it at all. I do know that parafrags were primarily for anti-personel and anti-aircraft-parked-on-runway missions primarily... neither of which we currently have. Not a whole lot of them were used to destroy structures... which we primarily have.Revvin said:A percentage of bombs will either skip or stick and there is no hard and fast rule to say what percentage this would be, as Seagoon says we have bullets that do not ricochet so are you now going to lobby to get those modelled correctly?
Actually that isn't necessary. HTC seems to be concerned with that aspect of the game moreso than those posting in this thread. They've already introduced ricochet effects on GVs. What you are asking is for a step backwards.
And... as you get lower... the "chance" becomes less and less of a factor. If you are flying NOE... bombs don't have the vertical velocity to slow enough. If you've been around them.... this would be very clear. Once again... the fuze would work for a dive bomb... but just what would it do in ANY other circumstance?Count 11 seconds, now consider each bounce or skip shaving off alot of energy and add an 11 sec fuse...how far away do you think an unhindered plane will be flying at 250-300mph? its your argument that is flawed. Not once did I ask for a bomb that sticks in the ground every time so kindly stop trying to put words into my mouth or are you so short of a valid reason for not having this feature that is all thats left for you to do?
Next time you are flying.. count how long it takes a bomb dropped from 600 feet to impact (if you are flying level). Now.. accept that it is possible that the bounce or skip can result in launching that bomb 600 feet back in the air with a very slight reduction in velocity. Now you have a bomb impacting right where you are.
Snakeyes were invented for a reason. Para-bombs were invented for a reason. There is zero reliable ways to drop a bomb at low level if the bomb is not slowed via drag. ZERO. Damn dude... you just have to do a little research to learn this.
AKDejaVu
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BTW... when I refer to parafrags.. I'm refering to bomblets. If you are refering to a parachute-drag bomb.. then fine. It could be used without a problem. Though... I'd say good luck hitting anything with it.
AKDejaVu
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Now.. accept that it is possible that the bounce or skip can result in launching that bomb 600 feet back in the air with a very slight reduction in velocity. Now you have a bomb impacting right where you are.
A bomb dropping 600 feet then bouncing straight back up at a slight reduction in velocity...I've not come across such bombs that defy the laws of physics.
The percentage of bounces will go up if you drop extremely low but if you drop at 100ft or less then you take the chance that you will perish to your own bomb but this percentage rises as your altitude increases, as it stands now you will ALWAYS perish and that can be reduced by adding the fuse.
bombs don't have the vertical velocity to slow enough. If you've been around them.... this would be very clear
And basic high school physics would say that any friction between the bomb and any surface in say a bounce or richochet will reduce its energy state.
Mosquito pilots flew low and level at convoys, to get the ord on target they would put the mast in front of them as it was about to dissappear under the nose they released, a standard 11 sec fuse allowed the bomb to hit the hull and sink below the water linewhere the compression of the explosion woulddo the most damage, but of course the Mosquito pilot must have been lying.
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A bomb dropping 600 feet then bouncing straight back up at a slight reduction in velocity...I've not come across such bombs that defy the laws of physics.
Your laws of physics must vary from those taught at most schools. That seems to be the root of the problem.
A bomb that is moving at 250-300mph forward prior to impact has a ton of inertia. Depending on what happens at impact.. that can result in it actually being launched back in the air (skips.. hits rock) and it doesn't loose much energy in the action. This isn't going "straight up" as you seem to have decided it must... it is going forward and up. Once again... this was a known result of bombs being dropped at low altitude level runs.The percentage of bounces will go up if you drop extremely low but if you drop at 100ft or less then you take the chance that you will perish to your own bomb but this percentage rises as your altitude increases, as it stands now you will ALWAYS perish and that can be reduced by adding the fuse.
Sigh... gaining altitude is how you reduce the effect. You do what you want with the fuse... and you simply eliminate it. That is wrong. It is very unrealistic. And it is totally perverting the rational behind the delay in the first place. There needs to be drag induced... delay just doesn't help enough.And basic high school physics would say that any friction between the bomb and any surface in say a bounce or richochet will reduce its energy state.
Yep.. but how much it is reduced is completely random. If it skips back into the air.. its energy is not reduced much at all. The issue is not what happens when its skidding across the ground... its just how little time it spends doing that. Experience tells you that.Mosquito pilots flew low and level at convoys, to get the ord on target they would put the mast in front of them as it was about to dissappear under the nose they released, a standard 11 sec fuse allowed the bomb to hit the hull and sink below the water linewhere the compression of the explosion woulddo the most damage, but of course the Mosquito pilot must have been lying.
Yep... the time delay is all that is necessary there big guy. I love the way you take something completely out of context to prove other points.
Like I said in my first post. This would involve modeling what happens when a bomb hits water, when it hits an object in the water, and what happens to said object after it hits the object. But you can just sit back and pretend that's really easy to do.
AKDejaVu
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A bomb that is moving at 250-300mph forward prior to impact has a ton of inertia. Depending on what happens at impact.. that can result in it actually being launched back in the air (skips.. hits rock) and it doesn't loose much energy in the action
Of course it loses energy and more than you are trying to infer and with each bounce/skip its totally energy is substantially less than when it started its flight.
Sigh... gaining altitude is how you reduce the effect. You do what you want with the fuse... and you simply eliminate it. That is wrong. It is very unrealistic. And it is totally perverting the rational behind the delay in the first place. There needs to be drag induced... delay just doesn't help enough.
It was used in RL so why is it so unrealistic now? ever tried toss bombing? low alt or toss bombing often leads to the aircraft being lost or damaged and approaching ack or GV's at anything over a few hundered feet where they can easily catch sight of you and you die, a fuse delay gives another option.
Yep... the time delay is all that is necessary there big guy. I love the way you take something completely out of context to prove other points
I used the example in my origianl post, how am I taking it out of context? I am reiterating what I posted at the start of this thread as you appear to have a comprehension problem.
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Revvin... you used an example in your original post that has nothing to do with AH. Absolutely nothing to do with it.. unless you feel you can do this with any of the current fleet vestles and survive the attack.
Now.. you take that "suggestion" based on a single scenario and disect how it affects virtually every aspect of the game. How does it affect bombing over land? Afterall.. 99% of the bombs are dropped there. Now you have a bit of a quandry... cause it doesn't really solve anything... it doesn't really add anything... and its a squeak to impliment.
You want a bomb to sink when it hits a ship before it explodes. My god.
AKDejaVu
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I used that as an example, its not the only example I've read about or saw in documentaries you're just being pedantic now because you've run out of excuses.
Again you attempt to put words in my mouth:
you take that "suggestion" based on a single scenario and disect how it affects virtually every aspect of the game"
EVERY aspect? that's rather misleading and quite an exageration of the truth but if thats all you have left then so be it.
You want a bomb to sink when it hits a ship before it explodes. My god
Have you not read the thread? if you had then you'd surely know this is not what it is all about at all...just a facet. I never said it would be easy, I never even insinuated that, what I did do was make a suggestion. So just to recap this was the question I asked:
"Would it be possible to either select a bomb load with a preset fuse delay in the hangar or maybe have a .fuse command so you could set it in flight or maybe have to set it before take-off?"
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I just don't get it. This wouldn't be as hard to implement as is being made out. We clearly have two historical ways of attacking the problem:
1) Retarding the fall of the bomb via fins or a chute
2) Delaying the explosion of the Bomb via a fuse
AKD, all of your arguments seem to center around the difficulty of modeling what happens to a bomb when hits the ground and doesn't explode. I think most of us wouldn't have any problems with the idea of it "sticking". You argue this is horribly unrealistic, but then again many WW2 bombs were duds, others were designed for detonation over the target (air blast), many bounced at least once before going off anyway, certainly not all were designed to detonate on impact as our bombs always do, so what the big deal is about providing delayed fuses escapes me.
- Seagoon
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seems like they will be getting fuse delays over in that 'other' online sim why not Aces High?
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What is car-bombing? What is it good for?
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Originally posted by Revvin
seems like they will be getting fuse delays over in that 'other' online sim why not Aces High?
Do you have a link?
AKDejaVu
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LOL! Found it. Man revvin.. you sure are liberal with the use of "seems like they will be getting fuse delays over in that 'other' online sim". ;)
From http://agw.warbirdsiii.com in a thread titled Mossie Loadouts (http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9043):Target Said:
Naw, he's talking about 7 second fuse delays... not do-able just yet. We'd have to make the bomb stop at the terrain, and bounce around and wait for the 7 seconds to end and we just don't have the code to do that yet. Maybe down the road.
Of course... Hotseat was a little more optimistic, though not as informed:Hotseat said:
"Why can't you just model the 7 second delay for Mossie bombs on the currently available skip bombs (a la B-25H)? Just make the bombs skip across the terrain (instead of water) and make the skips really, really, really small."
^ there is an interesting hack.... let me figure out HOW they work first...thats spocky Dale code
So the best you got was a "we'll look into it" from someone that keeps blaming Dale for every delay while insisting that WB3 is all new code.
AKDejaVu
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This is not about 'because another sim is getting it' or about cheap shots at the WB team it's about a feature which has many uses and was used in WW2.
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Umm... you brought the "the other sim is getting it" here revvin... not me.
Though it is ironic that they seem to be facing the same issues discussed in this thread... that few seem willing to acknowledge...
Just what happens to the bomb after it hits the ground?
AKDejaVu
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I bought it up because it was relevant to the subject and a punt for Majors who asked for the same thing in the general forum today, what I did'nt do was turn it into an oppurtunity at a cheap shot and to flail the HTC pom poms round...but then you do the job so well..wait a sec what's that? is that the Targetware moderators calling? :rolleyes:
It's not our place to wonder how it can be done but to ask for the feature in the first place. If we used your logic of not doing something because we're not sure how it can be done (and lets face it HT is one of the best coders around) then perhaps when HT thought of creating WB and AH he might have thought 'ah damn how am I going to make the planes fly' 'how will the engines work' 'what happens when the planes touch the ground' if he had used your logic then perhaps we'd be playing another programmers version of Tetris as a flight sim would have been too much trouble :rolleyes:
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coding is hard
oh yeah, add fuse delay
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Revvin...
"seems like they will be getting fuse delays over in that 'other' online sim why not Aces High?"
"This is not about 'because another sim is getting it'"
Hello?
As for the dig.. it wasn't on iEN. It was on Hotseat and his ability to present any delay as if it were dale's fault. And I don't recall going over to iEN to point this out. I do, however, commend your hypocricy with the targetware refference.
You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that the "why we aren't getting it right away..." is answered even in Target's post.
There are plenty of cool things from WW2 and I'd like to see all of them in the game. Where would you prioritize this particular feature? How much would you use it? What would you like HTC to set asside?
Personally... I'd still like to see more aircraft. I'd also like to see a rework on the strat system and ALOT of effort put into the new theater idea. I'd put "fuse delay" pretty close to the bottom... for when they run out of ideas.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaUu
BTW.. any idea how long it takes for a bomb (or anything) to drop 500 feet?
I don't think anyone answered this yet...
3.9 seconds neglecting drag.
I've no problem with bombs 'digging in' to the point they hit on the ground. Yes I know they skip if dropped over shallow trajectories but this is a game after all.
Gatso
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You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that the "why we aren't getting it right away..." is answered even in Target's post.
And they acknowledge they are looking into it which would indicate they have already given it thought and will eventually get round to doing it. If we can put men on the moon is coding a bomb that bounces so hard to do? planes skip across the terrain so there's a start. I'm not saying it's easy but you are trying to make out like HTC have to re-invent the wheel to get this to work, perhaps I have a little more faith in HT's ability to code.
There are plenty of cool things from WW2 and I'd like to see all of them in the game. Where would you prioritize this particular feature? How much would you use it?
Quite often as would others it seems from the replies here and elsewhere
Personally... I'd still like to see more aircraft. I'd also like to see a rework on the strat system and ALOT of effort put into the new theater idea. I'd put "fuse delay" pretty close to the bottom... for when they run out of ideas.
So show me anywhere in this thread or anywhere else where I have stated this feature should take priority over everything else..go on show me. I'd like to see more strat and planes too but it would be nice to know this would make the list somewhere.
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Ah... finally revvin...
And they acknowledge they are looking into it which would indicate they have already given it thought and will eventually get round to doing it.
One thing you may have missed was the refference to dale's code.
Seems to me that HiTech and gang have also given it some thought. So why this thread? I'm pretty sure HTC has read a portion of this thread and the idea of Fuse Delay has thusly been a part of their consideration. Maybe they could come here and say "we'll get to it someday"?So show me anywhere in this thread or anywhere else where I have stated this feature should take priority over everything else..go on show me.
I'd like you to show me where I said you did first. You bumped this thread and continue to defend the point. That says you put some priority on the feature. Either that or you are unable to let it go.
Either way... doesn't really matter.
AKDejaVu
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OK, a bomb dropped from 50ft takes 1.24s to hit the deck. I don't know much about WW2 fuzing mechanisms. I do know that the Argentinians had problems with bomb fusing during the Falklands.
The problem being that there was an air screw that turned on a thread that pushed the detonator into the explosive, if it didn't travel far enough it didn't go off. Hence the high proportion of bombs that didn't explode even if they hit.
Is this the same for WW2 bombs? I'm guessing it's similar at least. So why not make it so the bombs have to fly through the air for X amount of seconds before they will detonate, and then add a user set delay (fuze) before they go off.
Secondly. Bomb skipping, what exactly is the problem? Are people unhappy that bombs that could in real life skip or bounce over the ground and hit stuff will not? I personally would'nt mind if you don't hit anything directly it does'nt go off, if you do hit something directly it sits there for X (user set) seconds and then goes off. Or even not bother with bomb bouncing and just let it go off X seconds in the first place it hit.
What exactly are people against? (AKDejaVu I'm looking at you ;) )
Gatso
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you have to model what happens to the bomb once it hits the ground........
Does it bounce around until it totally bleeds or embeds itself in the terrain or object.
Its not a simple matter of saying ok add 11sec until it blows up.
Now bombs detonate when the collide with the terrain or object or they just "disappear" it they arent armed.
I think it would great to have a "delay" modelled and I dont think it would slow down planes being introduced. Dont nate and superfly model. HT is the coder.
But get the mission arena working :)
btw Revvin punted this thread because there was another thread asking for the exact samething. I dont think that it necessarily means "do it now"
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Gatso,
The time required to arm is already there.
The delay after that should (even if implimented) not be user configurable... but rather an armament option at the hangar. I don't even know of many modern fuses that have fusing time delays programable by the pilot.
As for the skipping... its "simply" a case of programming for it since the game does not allow for it right now. Of course, skipping bombs and fuse delay are kinda two different things. Skipping usually rellied on contact fuses to detonate the device.
So... it boils down to knowing just exactly what you are asking for.
What exactly do you want the bomb to do when you release it and it has a delayed fuze?
AKDejaVu
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Back to the topic. Dejavu is on target with alot of points. Due to my profession, I have watched a few bomb drops. I also understand the theory behind the two types of delays (time to arm, and detonation delay) with mechanical fuzes (neither of which is modeled in AH)
Time to arm is just that, when the bomb is released a wire is pulled from the vane on the fuze. The setting is set in seconds. Depending on the type of mission (ie alt of drop, angle of attack, whether its a level attack or not) the desired setting is set.
Delays in detonation are used for a variety of targets. Underground bunkers, tunnels, large buildings, hardened AC shelters are all good candidates for some type of detobnation delay. The idea is for the bomb to penetrate deep into the heart of the target before exploding, causing more damage. Bomb design has alot to do with the effectiveness of this type of attack. Most bombs simply crush themselves upon impact and will not go deep enough for the deeper bunkers. We use bombs like the BLU-29 and the GBU-28 which are steel adn with thich sleek nose cones to get deep in todays times. (even with them delays will never be seen more than 2 seconds, 11 seconds is impractical. Most delays are set at much less than a second for all practical purposes).
Once in Avon Park, Fla, I watched several F-16's from Homestead AFB drop dummy 500 pounders from a distance. I witnessed a bomb enter the ground and then exit terra firma within a seconds timeframe more than 100 feet from impact point. I was thoroughly impressed. I also saw firsthand what our little 25 lb steel practice bombs could do. Clean through an old armored troop transport left there as a target.
The thing that would be usefull in AH would be to model retarded delivery bombs. that would allow you to get away from the target, and would also require some finesse on te part of the pilot.
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One thing you may have missed was the refference to dale's code.
I saw it but did'nt feel the need like you did to whip out the HTC pom poms and doyour little jig :rolleyes:
Seems to me that HiTech and gang have also given it some thought. So why this thread? I'm pretty sure HTC has read a portion of this thread and the idea of Fuse Delay has thusly been a part of their consideration. Maybe they could come here and say "we'll get to it someday"?
I had not seen a post previous to this askign for it and if it has made them consider it then that was the whole point of the thread! :rolleyes: to put forward an idea.
I'd like you to show me where I said you did first
:rolleyes: good grief! how old are you! "no you first!..no you!..no I said it first!" :rolleyes: My comment was merely pointing out I did not think it was a priority either which is what you seemed to imply which you re-iterate later in the thread.
So... it boils down to knowing just exactly what you are asking for.
We know what we want it is you that cannot seem to grasp it
You bumped this thread and continue to defend the point. That says you put some priority on the feature.
Then show me where I have said it should have pritority? It was bumped so a friend who asked for the same thing elsewhere could find the post easier its as simple as that. If it was such a priority for me I would have replied sooner and not almost 4 months later :rolleyes:
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This turned from a decent discussion into a pissing match. :(
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Same thoughts ammo, thats why tried to get it back to what people want. Deja, time to arm isn't here. Going back on some old posts it's distance to arm, the bomb has to travel 1000ft before it will explode. It's nothing to do with time at all.
I'm interested in exactly how WW2 arming mechanisms/fuses worked, I'm pretty sure they didn't have GBU's or BLU's in WW2 :p . And I would like some HARD information about detonators and fuses (2 seperate things) instead of the pissing match that Revvin and Deja seem to have going on.
Hopefully this will indicate an obvious way forward once we have this information.
Gatso
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cc gatso, heres a link that will give you lots of info. Plenty more out there. The premier mechanical fuze for years in the USAF has been teh M904 and M905. Both are old designs, and not far off from what WW2 ordinance used. Time to arm is correct, no distance. Fuze setting was in seconds. Once it left the AC, the vane spun many rev's (depending on setting by the ord guy) before the explosive train in the fuze was aligned and ready to detonate on impact, or if it had a delay element installed then the suybsequent detonation after impact.
http://www.ordnance.org/fuzes.htm
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OK.. time to arm is no more/less accurate than distance to arm. Its based on veign rotation. Number of revs equals arming. The revs/sec varry on speed so the time can quite simply vary. I've not seen digital or quarts mechanisms in veign operated fuses that do any actual "timing". Distance is just as accurate of a measurement.. so no need to get technical on time vs distance here. Neither is completely accurate, but both are still relatively accurate (especially with these planes).
Once again, as ammo touches on, the fuzing is a minor point. What the bomb does before the fuze arms is a much more significant point.
What would a bomb do if it hit the side of a hangar with a delayed fuze?
What would a bomb do if it was dropped into the ground with a delayed fuze?
These questions are still going un-answered by people making the request.
AKDejaVu
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quote:
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Originally posted by AKDejaUu
BTW.. any idea how long it takes for a bomb (or anything) to drop 500 feet?
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quote:
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I don't think anyone answered this yet...
3.9 seconds neglecting drag.
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Nope, something's wrong with the math here. Distance covered with a constant acceleration follows the formula
s = 0.5a t^2
where s is distance, a is acceleration, and t is time. Rerranging this formula to solve for time yields
t = sqrt(2s / a)
Acceleration due to gravity is approx. 32 ft/sec squared, so
t = sqrt((2 * 500 ft) / (32 ft/sec squared)) = 5.6 seconds
See? Undergraduate physics is useful after all. ;)
Also note that a non-spherical object dropped at significant forward speed on an irregular surface can indeed bounce higher than its originally dropped height depending on the forward speed, the distance dropped, how it hits, the coefficient of restitution, etc. Think of a football thrown hard at a shallow angle and you will know what I mean.
Zizu
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lol, ty Zizu. That'll teach me to try and do maths with a bottle o beer in my hands. :D Forgot the 0.5.
Thanks for the link ammo, I'll have a read now.
Gatso
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What would a bomb do if it hit the side of a hangar with a delayed fuze?
What would a bomb do if it was dropped into the ground with a delayed fuze?
These questions are still going un-answered by people making the request
And that's for Hitech to decide on what limitations the game engine (if any) will put on these questions.
FACT: fuse delays were used in WW2 against buildings and other hardened targets, vehicles and shipping. The request was simple enough to ask if it could be done and only HTC can answer that.
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Originally posted by Revvin
FACT: fuse delays were used in WW2 against buildings and other hardened targets, vehicles and shipping. The request was simple enough to ask if it could be done and only HTC can answer that.
Fact: we have no hardened targets.
Penetrating a target is a non-issue in AH.
Its the wonderfull thing about reality... the physics is already in place.
AKDejaVu
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We have shore batteries, vehicles and shipping as well as other targets to destroy that would be aided by a fuse delay.
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This is interesting:
From here (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/nosespikes.htm)
REMARKS: Stachebomben, or "Stabo" for short, are used in low altitude attacks to ensure the bomb does not ricochet.
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This is a very interesting subject. I've had to dig quite a lot to get any info out of the web and I'll probably be getting a visit from someone working for MI5 wanting to talk to me about the amount of searches I've done for 'bomb fuses' and similar :D
Conclusions.
Lots of places quote the 11 second fuse delay for allied aircraft as being the most common.
Bomb ricochet was a known problem for low altitude drops. (see my above post)
Mosquitos in particular did a lot of high profile low alt raids (Amiens and the Gestapo HQ in the Hague probably being two notable ones).
US forces did use parachute retardation although not much.
I guess there's nothing much we can do now, the 'bomb skipping' thing is nothing any of us here can fix so I'm just going to sit back now and see if anything comes of it.
a few links for you to finish:
German bombs (pics of layouts and fuzing mechanisms) (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/bombs.html)
British Bombs, useful background (http://www.nucleus.com/~ltwright/bombs&mines.htm)
Bombs rockets and other ord (http://www.danshistory.com/ww2/bombs.html)
The site ammo linked is Excellent too. TY for that.
Lets try and keep it constructive now and not just nit pick at each others post.
Gatso
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Originally posted by Zizu
t = sqrt((2 * 500 ft) / (32 ft/sec squared)) = 5.6 seconds
See? Undergraduate physics is useful after all. ;)
Zizu, you failed to give the answer to the right question. A bomb doesn't have zero velocity at drop. It's at the same speed as the ac that drops it.
Doing math in those units is forbidden by international standards anyway.
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Lots of places quote the 11 second fuse delay for allied aircraft as being the most common.
Thanks for the links, 11 sec delay was a figure that came up again and again in documentaries I've watched and books I've read. Fused bombloads have just as much a place in AH as all the various types of cannon rounds modelled.
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Zizu, you failed to give the answer to the right question. A bomb doesn't have zero velocity at drop. It's at the same speed as the ac that drops it
It has zero vertical velocity if you drop it level and thats what we were talking about, dropping low and level. Yes if your dive bombing you need to add the initial vertical component of the velocity.
OK I refuse to give up on this :p I thought i would but it's gonna bug me now.
Some interesting figures, estimates really, no drag included because we don't know what value drag the bombs have in AH. As the times are relatively small there should be minimal error involved.
Minimum alt to drop bombs level and have them explode at the moment: 75 feet
Time for bomb to hit the ground: 2.2s
Angle of impact at 75 feet assuming 300mph horizontal velocity: 9 degrees.
9 degs is not an awful lot, it does seem sensible that such a flat trajectory would mean the bomb not stopping dead when it hits the ground, it flatter the faster the drop speed of course.
Interestingly the angle of impact I have from 500feet and 300mph is only 22 degrees, the higher you go the more 'out' the figure will end up I know, but it's interesting all the same. I thought it'd be a lot higher than that from gut feeling.
I guess one solution would be for bombs with a delay to 'bite' into the ground if they hit the deck above a certain angle and horizontal/vertical velocity, if they don't reach this angle they bounce until they run out of energy or hit something. This seem sensible? Changes in terrain angle (hills in the way) wouldn't matter then if you applied the same criteria to every bounce.
One thing i've not thought up any ways to get round is when a large heavy bomb moving at a huge rate of knots hits something as small as a field ack or similar, Is it reasonable to have the bomb 'stick' to it even though in RL it would smash straight through and keep going? Any larger structure and the bomb sticks to the point it hit before blowing up when the 11 secs or whatever are up. Bombs that don't hit anything just go boom after X secs whatever they are doing.
Thoughts?
Gatso
(P.S. A lot less drunk while doing the calcs this time :( so they might even be right :D )
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double post
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Originally posted by Revvin
Thanks for the links, 11 sec delay was a figure that came up again and again in documentaries I've watched and books I've read.
We are talking about a 11 second time to arm delay, right? An 11 second detonation delay after an impact would not work for a general purpose frag or incendiary bomb.
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To piggy back on my last post, I dont know what value a time to arm delay woul bring to AH, in fact its kind of implemented already but for a different reason. Time to arm delay is purely a safety measure, to allow seperation of the bomb from the delivery AC before arming of the fuze/bomb. The idea behind non airborn AC not being able to explode bombs is basically the same thing, but was implemented to stop the dweebishness. Functional delay in a bomb could have some use against very hard targets and hangers, only if the correct bombs were modeled. I dont even know if hardened bombs were in existence in WW2, but I am betting they were:) Mechanical fuze functional delays range anywhere from a tenth of a second up through one full second nowadays, and the theory would hold true in WW2 as well.
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Gatso posted some good links above I suggest perhaps you take a look. Would you be happy if HTC modelled only one type of cannon round?
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We are talking about a 11 second time to arm delay, right? An 11 second detonation delay after an impact would not work for a general purpose frag or incendiary bomb
Yes detonation delay.. No arming delay...
Why not?
Uses are mentioned in posts in this thread, Bomb will 'arm' if dropped at 75ft level in AH but you'll end up dead from the blast when it detonates on hitting the ground. A detonation delay would give you time to clear before your bomb goes boom.
I'm sure no one wants to bring back carbombing. The 1000ft arming delay we have now stops this very well. I'd love to come screaming across a town/base and drop bombs at 75ft knowing I'm gonna hit stuff and not get blown up in the process. No more popping up to drop ord on NOE raids.
Lots of sources i've read in the last 2 days have said allied and axis both used timed detonators to great success. Not like we're asking for anything that wasn't used in RL.
Gatso
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Originally posted by gatso
Yes detonation delay.. No arming delay...
Why not?
Uses are mentioned in posts in this thread, Bomb will 'arm' if dropped at 75ft level in AH but you'll end up dead from the blast when it detonates on hitting the ground. A detonation delay would give you time to clear before your bomb goes boom.
Gatso
Gatso-- Why not you ask? A detonation delay of 11 seconds would have your bomb no where near your intended target when the thing finally detonates. As an illistration, consider how far your AC would travel in 11 seconds even at a moderate speed. Also consider that the general purpose bombs modeled in AH would doubtfully hold together long enough to even detonate. The bomb would crush a nose fuze beyond its capability to function with 11 seconds of pushing through concrete, steel, dirt, etc.. A tail fuze would mabe survive the terminal impact, but then again, the bomb would not be near its target. I guess you think that a 500 lb bomb traveling 400 MPH will hit a hanger and stop? then 11 seconds later explode?
Originally posted by gatso
Lots of sources i've read in the last 2 days have said allied and axis both used timed detonators to great success. Not like we're asking for anything that wasn't used in RL.
Gatso
Yes, I agree with that, but would you please point me to the link that said the fuzes incorperated an 11 second detonation delay? Maybe it was specialty bomb that I am not aware of its use in WW2. I know a durandal has an extended detonation delay, but it certainly doesn't fall into the category of bombs that are modeled in AH
And please, no need to get hostile revvin. I am not against having something like this in AH. I dont relish squishing anyones idea's. I just want to tell what I know.
The way to incorperate the desired effect in AH would be to model the different types of Bombs and fins in the game. A high drag bomb would give us just what you are suggesting, but from a realistic standpoint.
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Ammo, most of you're questions would be answered of you re read the whole of this thread.
As to the 11 second de;ay thing, I'm tired, it's late, I'll do a proper search tomorow but for now:
Medium Capacity (MC) designs which had improved metal to explosive ratios and also proved more reliability and generally exploded on impact, unless fitted with delayed action fuses
From here (http://www.nucleus.com/~ltwright/bombs&mines.htm)
This is LW ans not 11 secs but is another source:
All detonators on the (89) B fuze circuit are instantaneous while the detonators on the (69) D fuze circuits have delays varying from 1 to 6 seconds
From here (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ab1000-2.htm)
Ah Ha! found one, interesting too, makes the point well:
We did a lot of low-level daylight bombing. We flew at just 50 feet instead of the normal 25,000 feet. We dropped four 500-pound bombs. You flew in to your target at 50 feet and as you approached it you went up to 1,200 feet. You then did a shallow dive onto the target and released your bombs. The bomb had an 11-second delay, so you shot up to avoid the bomb blast
From here (http://www.nalis.gov.tt/Biography%5Cbio_UlricCross(2)_formerJustice.htm)
There's more out there, it's just hiding pretty well. I'll post more if I find it tommorow
Gatso
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And please, no need to get hostile revvin. I am not against having something like this in AH.
That was not the intent of my post, sorry if you took it that way I was merely pointing to the links which described the different types used by the RAF.
I dont relish squishing anyones idea's. I just want to tell what I know
And I appreciate your input but some posted here with a combative attitude and for what? because I posted a suggestion to perhaps improve Aces High
The way to incorperate the desired effect in AH would be to model the different types of Bombs and fins in the game. A high drag bomb would give us just what you are suggesting, but from a realistic standpoint
I agree 100% as I said before if AH can model different cannon rounds why not bombs? I know where you are coming from with the high drag bombs but the 11 sec fuse is just as historical and used extensively by the RAF. The other guys have given some good input on the Axis bombs but in particular my interest is mainly RAF which is why I posted with this perspective.
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Found an interesting link here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/aircraft/blenheim.html). The really interesting part:
The first RAF aircraft to fly over Germany during the Second World War was a Blenheim IV, serial number N6215, of No 139 Squadron, when, on 3 September 1939, Flying Officer A Macpherson carried out an armed reconnaissance over German warships in the Schillig Roads off Wilhelmshaven. The next day, five Blenheim IVs of No 110 Squadron and five of No 107 set out from Wattisham to attack German warships in the Heligoland Bight, led by Flight Lieutenant KC Doran of No 110. The aircraft each carried two 5001b semi armour-piercing bombs, and the two squadrons made their way out independently. Doran' s formation attacked the German pocket-battleship Sheer, lying off Wilhelmshaven, and scored three or four direct hits but, owing to the low level at which the attacks were carried out, the bombs failed to explode as their eleven-second delay fuses had insufficient time to work off their safety devices. The ship was out of action for no more than five weeks. The Blenheims of No 107 Squadron, as well as five others from No 139 Squadron, failed to achieve any damage. Five Wattisham-based Blenheims failed to return.
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3 more:
Amiens Raid:
Eighteen Mosquito-VI fighter-bombers, six each from 487, 464 and 21 squadrons, all carrying two 500lb bombs with 11-second delay detonators, were to breach the 20ft-walls surrounding the prison and, three minutes later, smash the inner building
From here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3976807,00.html)
There was moderate light flak and as they released their bomb load the Blenheim was seen to burst into a mass of flames and crash into the sea. The returning crews speculated on the cause of this crash and although flak was the most obvious cause it was thought that the intensity of the fire was not likely to have been the result of the light flak that was encountered. It was considered possible that the crash could have been caused by a faulty or incorrect pistol fuse on one of the bombs which had exploded immediately on release instead of with the normal 11 second delay required for low level operations of this type
From here (http://www.eccleshill.net/eccmemorial)
On the afternoon of 17 April, 1941 a dozen Lancasters took off for Augsburg. The first wave of six bombers, flying in two Vics of three, was from No. 44 Squadron, led by Squadron leader John Nettleton. Two miles (3 km) astern and about 3 miles (5 km) to starboard was the second wave, six Lancasters from No. 97 Squadron led by Squadron leader John Shewood. Each aircraft carried four 1,0001b (450 kg) bombs with 11 second delay action fuses.
From here (http://www.danshistory.com/ww2/britishb.html)
Gatso
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And in another documentary in the history channel a mosquito pilot described how the 11 sec fuse was employed against shipping. Flying at sea level the pilot would fly towards the ship and release close by the ship only pulling up to avoid the mast. The 11 sec fuse was used so that after hitting the side of the ship the bomb would sink below the waterline to create more damage and the greater chance of sinking the ship.
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originally posted by AKDejaVu
owing to the low level at which the attacks were carried out, the bombs failed to explode as their eleven-second delay fuses had insufficient time to work off their safety devices
Deja, that sounds like an arming problem, ie, the bombs were dropped too low for the bomb to become armed at all, the fact it was carrying an 11 sec fuse is incidental.
Still nice to see you found another link mentioning the fact they were used. 1st constructive thing you've done in this thread.. well done keep it up. ;) :p
Gatso
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You haven't shown that the "11 second fuze" did anything other than delay the arming of the bomb 11 seconds.
Not one mention of penetration... or anything of that sort. Really... you have simply established that some bombs needed 11 seconds to arm.
AKDejaVu
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DejaVu,
No matter how much you protest it doesn't change the fact that RAF Mosquitoes used 11 sec. delay bombs to give them time to get away after dropping from rofftop altitudes. There are numerous examples of this. It worked. No matter how much you intellectualize you're still getting it wrong.
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Karnak,
I know delayed fuzes were used in WW2. I will continue to maintain that they were not used in the capacity of NOE (below 100 feet) bombing. I've only found 1 reference to someone that dropped one below 3000 feet. The story said he dropped it at 10 feet. :rolleyes: Wait... one other was below 3000... he popped up to 1200 feet.
So we'd be adding this capability to AH in order to... ?
AKDejaVu
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The example I used above was of a mosquito pilot attacking small ships, he was flying around 10 feet rising to 30 feet max. Other stories such as attacks on a Norweigan gestapo HQ were also done at roof top level (around 30 foot, maybe 40 foot) one was so low his plane was damaged by a chimney and also attacks on V1 sites at tree top level. It did happen and was a tactic used in WW2 particularly well by RAF Mosquito's.
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Deja I think you're getting your terminology wrong. Time to 'arm' and a fuze/detonator delay are 2 seperate things. Both were used but the NOE mossie raids used delayed fuses/detonators, not delayed arming. A lot of the writing by people mixes these things up as well so it makes it difficult to sort out what exactly they are talking about. I found the site that ammo posted a while a go helped enormously.
Ah, found that 10ft attack reference, it's from a newspaper article from the Amiens raid link I posted, Didn't anyone ever tell you to never trust anything you read in the paper ;)
Smith led the first six aircraft from 487 squadron and, just after midday, attacked the surrounding walls from a height of 10ft
Amiens is a classic raid of this sort. There's lots more articles about it because it was considered to be so amazing that any of the prisoners escaped. The most interesting thing in that article is:
A 19th Mosquito, from the film production unit, was to record the operation
The film is shown in just about every documentry ever made about the mossie, keep an eye out it is truly spectacular. If i find any decent pics I'll post them.
Gatso
film I remember seeing may have been from either the Aarhus, Copenhagen or Amiens raids, they had PRU aircraft on each presumably for propaganda purposes.>
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Amiens, The target:
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Attack on The Gestapo Headquarters, Aarhus, Denmark
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Well, it seems there is more to it than what I realized. I can say this, in todays USAF, we dont use any mechanical fuzes that offer a detonation (or functional delay, synonymous) delay of over 2 seconds. Our mainstay mechanical fuzes, the M904 and M905 have detontion delays of up to 1 second. And this wopuld be practical. It allows a GP frag bomb to get well inside a target before functioning.
Gatso, I was lookign at some of the examples you posted linkls to and found something quite interesting.
There was moderate light flak and as they released their bomb load the Blenheim was seen to burst into a mass of flames and crash into the sea. The returning crews speculated on the cause of this crash and although flak was the most obvious cause it was thought that the intensity of the fire was not likely to have been the result of the light flak that was encountered. It was considered possible that the crash could have been caused by a faulty or incorrect pistol fuse on one of the bombs which had exploded immediately on release instead of with the normal 11 second delay required for low level operations of this type.
This implies that the 11 second arming/detonation sequence of the zuze begins upon release. Instead of the impact of the weapon starting the detonation sequence, the fuze begins its arming and its detonation process when its dropped. The 11 seconds is used up in free fall, and if timed correctly by a skiled pilot, could work well. I was under that impression (too much assuming) that the 11 second detonation delay began once the bomb impacted. Which of course I contend would not work for reasons I already stated above.
Another example found in one of those links you posted (thx by the way)
Originally posted by gatso
This is LW ans not 11 secs but is another source:
All detonators on the (89) B fuze circuit are instantaneous while the detonators on the (69) D fuze circuits have delays varying from 1 to 6 seconds
From here (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ab1000-2.htm) Gatso
Gatso, this weapon is a cluster bomb. The 6 second delay fuze allows the weapon to seperate from the AC, and dependant on altitude release, the dispersion of the bomblets. this fuze only functions to open the dispenser.
Each aircraft carried four 1,0001b (450 kg) bombs with 11 second delay action fuses.
same type of fuze I believe. The fuze begins its detonation sequence upon release (much like a standard US hand grenade). The altitude of the AC and the target are determined to allow the bomb to drop safely from the AC, arm, impact and penetrate the target, and finally detonate inside the target. Pretty neat.
ANyway, that is how I believe the 11 second delay RAF fuze functions.
Her is how the delay of a standard mechanical fuze functions in the US military.
M904E2/E3/E4 MECHANICAL IMPACT NOSE
FUZE
The M904 (series) fuze (fig. 1-1) is a mechanical impact nose fuze used in the Mk 80 (series) low-drag general-purpose (LDGP) bombs. The M904 (series) fuze is installed in the nose fuze well of the bomb and requires the use of an adapter booster. The fuze is detonator-safe, and it contains two observation windows through which you can determine the safe/arm condition of the fuze. There is no special locking feature designed into the fuze for shear safety if the bomb is accidentally dropped. However, detonation is unlikely if the collar (forward end of the fuze) is sheared off by the accidental drop before arming is complete. The fuze may be configured for a number of preselected arming and functioning delays needed by a mission. There are nine arming delays from 2 to 18 seconds in 2-second increments, and any combination of six functioning delays from instantaneous to 250 milliseconds (0.250 seconds) may be selected. An internal governor, driven by the permanently mounted arming vane, allows relatively constant arming times at release speeds ranging from 170 to over 525 knots. Functioning times are determined by the installation of an M9 delay element. Any one of six delay elements may be installed. Each delay element is identified by the functioning delay time stamped on the element body—NONDELAY (instantaneous), 0.01, 0.025, 0.05, 0.1, or 0.25 second.
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Thx ammo for the input. appreciated.
The cluster bomb one crept in because i wasn't paying attention... but mmm, cluster bombs :D
Regarding the bomb arming as soon as being dropped deja posted this earlier:
owing to the low level at which the attacks were carried out, the bombs failed to explode as their eleven-second delay fuses had insufficient time to work off their safety devices
However this was in sept 1939, the mossie raids didn't start for a couple of years later. Could be 2 different types of bomb?
I might ask on Mossie.org in a few days if I don't find anything in the mean time.
Gatso
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We are talking about a 11 second time to arm delay, right? An 11 second detonation delay after an impact would not work for a general purpose frag or incendiary bomb.
Unless what you're after is schrecklichkeit, not raw damage. From an account (http://www.aafo.com/library/history/B-17/b17part9.htm) of the missions of the B-17 "This Is It":
Our next target was Romily, France, a very important airfield near Paris. Bomb load was twelve 500 pound bombs with ten bombs fused for one-tenth second delay and two bombs fused for a time interval of thirty minutes after estimated bomb release time. This worried me. There were too many happenings that delay a flight, and I didn't have a lot of confidence in how good they were on setting these timers. Once set, there was no way to change the time of bomb explosion. We had some experiences with this.
The one tenth of a second permitted the bomb to be under ground when it exploded to make a large crater. The long delay of thirty minutes harassed the people who were putting out fires, and people who were trying to rescue people trapped in building wreckage. These slow bombs were set for a specific time which could not be changed.
The Long Delay Fuse was a tail-mounted fuse (i.e., screwed into the fuse mount at the rear of the bomb, between its tail fins), and could be set for a detonation delay of up to 36 hours.