Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on April 15, 2002, 08:57:26 AM
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just wondering how many others had to pay Uncle Sam this year and out of those who is against additional tax breaks ... I did and am for every tax break/decrease the Reps can squeeze out of DC. Get rid of the gov waste, make them do more with less - just like the rest of us.
Saw/heard that 5% of the US pop pay over 50% of the the taxes while 50% pay only 5%. No wonder the dems can sing their tax increase song to their voting base and still get elected ...:rolleyes:
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that the top 5 % own about that proportion of the total property in the country thus requiring the same proportion of tax dollars may have something to do with it.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
that the top 5 % own about that proportion of the total property in the country thus requiring the same proportion of tax dollars may have something to do with it.
That's B.S. where's your source that 5% of the people own 50% of the land? That shouldn't have anything to do with taxes anyway, unless you want to go back to only land owners get to vote. I'd be ok with that as I would own land the next day :)
Eagler,
How many more days until tax freedom day? 1 or 2 months? ;)
F__k you very much IRS :)
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And the funny thing for us Europeans is that 95% of USians act and think as if they belonged to that 5% and the rest were just trying to rip them off their stuff.
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IRS owes me ~$250 (which is about how much my tax guy cost - word to the wise never have money in 2 countries).
I owe the Commonwealth of Massachusetts $1. I wonder if I can pay them out of my penny jar?
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yea yea same ole crap pay up or go to jail . like that better ? we have the lowest taxes of any industrialised country. expecialy for the rich . you dont like it move to mexico se how you like that system.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
yea yea same ole crap pay up or go to jail . like that better ? we have the lowest taxes of any industrialised country. expecialy for the rich . you dont like it move to mexico se how you like that system.
Screw that, I'd rather change the system and have it resemble some sort of fairness. In all actuality, I wouldn't mind paying 30%+ of my income if the sorry bastards would do their freaking jobs and spend it right instead of waisting it like they do. But as far as moving out of my country F you very much too :) I was born here and need not leave to go to Mexico, they are all moving here. Alot of them to go straight to welfare too :mad:
Somebody answer my question, how long until tax freedom day?
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Gettin 2800 bucks back.
Neener Neener.:p
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I've never been taxed on money I didn't make.
The main reason that 1 person can pay as much in taxes as 10 people is that he is actually making 10 times more.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by hblair
Gettin 2800 bucks back.
Neener Neener.:p
I payed just under $2000 :(
That was after using every trick er "break" in the ole tax book :)
takeda
never said I'm in the top 5%, far from it.
Middle class at best. Just peeves me to see the crooks we call politicians turn taxes into a class envy, friggin robinhood story.
As if the "rich" owes it to us to pay our way ...
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BTW... we had a very good year back in 97. Our EB and ECB bonus was the highest they'd ever been. Most people were getting some extra $8,000 in the month of February. One day, while we are meandering about at work, a voice comes on over the intercom and explains that we'll be getting an additional $1,000 just for the hell of it.
You should have heard how many people complained about the taxes that were taken out that extra $1000.
:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
You should have heard how many people complained about the taxes that were taken out that extra $1000.
:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
Why shouldn't they? what did the IRS/Feds do to earn that money? What's the diference in burning my grass hut, killing my goats and chickens if I don't pay the "king's tax" or the IRS taking my land, property and throwing me in jail? OR harrassing me every day with the threat of jail or confescation of my money/property? In one word the difference is none....
When is tax freedom day this year?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! is it still in may?
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Conservative anarchists crack me up :D
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Um.. are you joking udie? If not.. let me know and I can explain to you just how far up your bellybutton your head currently is.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Udie
Why shouldn't they? what did the IRS/Feds do to earn that money? What's the diference in burning my grass hut, killing my goats and chickens if I don't pay the "king's tax" or the IRS taking my land, property and throwing me in jail? OR harrassing me every day with the threat of jail or confescation of my money/property? In one word the difference is none....
When is tax freedom day this year?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! is it still in may?
:confused: Do you think smart bombs are free?
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
I've never been taxed on money I didn't make.
The main reason that 1 person can pay as much in taxes as 10 people is that he is actually making 10 times more.
AKDejaVu
OK, Udie is just going nutty, but I don't agree with this statement either. It would be fine and dandy, except that your tax % increases with your yearly income at certain levels. In my opinion, the % should stay the same while the dollar amount owed will naturally go up with increased income.
SOB
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great idea same day they make minimum wage enough to put all fulltime workers above the poverty level and force the rich to have the same medical care as the poor.
i.e. never happen and it aint the poor stopin it.
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Lineal taxes are not fair.
If you take 100$/mo from a guy making 500$/mo you are screwing him badly even though he was already screwed to start with
If you take 10K/mo from a guy making 50K/mo, he is still filthy rich.
So you have to look into this to collect taxes without screwing people too much.
Of course, "bumps" in taxes as you get better pay can be annoying and even a bit kafkian, at my last job I got last January a measly 2% raise which in fact made me get 4$/mo less because i had just passed one of those "bumps".
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I'm all for nationalized health care. As for minimum wage, tough toejame. If you aren't happy with your current level of pay then better yourself and get a better job.
SOB
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flat tax
heard Russia now has a 15% flat tax, think it was 15 - somewhere around there
and their economy is on an upswing
in my hourly days, you reached a certain point where you lost money because your overtime bumped you into a higher tax bracket
I'd have techs decline OT just for that reason.
Our tax system is a joke.
Every year at this time, I'm reminded of it. Doesn't help that it falls on my birthday :)
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I'd really like to be paying less in taxes. I'd also like for there to be a flat tax. I just realize a few things:[list=1]
- My wife and I combine for alot more than most Americans
- I could have bigger problems than trying to figure out how to juggle 2 car payments, 2 morgage paments and still afford a trip to San Carlos this summer
- A flat tax would mean the rich would pay less... but we'd still need the money. How much more would those that are barely getting by be able to make up?
A flat rate just isn't going to work. I think we can minimize the rate difference, but not eliminate it. Its just not right.
I'll also call roadkill on any "What's the diference in burning my grass hut, killing my goats and chickens if I don't pay the "king's tax" or the IRS taking my land, property and throwing me in jail? OR harrassing me every day with the threat of jail or confescation of my money/property?" statement. It tells me that someone has never had to deal with the IRS when they couldn't afford to pay by tax day... that is... they are increadibly out of touch and uninformed.
You want to piss the IRS off? Lie on your tax return and get caugh. Sorry... but I feel no pitty for those individuals.
Run into a bad situation that ends up with you owing money and watch the IRS bend of backwards to accomodate you. I know more than a handfull of people that have been in this situation... and none that have gone to jail, suffered reposession or harassment of any kind.
There is just way too much villification of all that is taxes. Sorry, but I don't agree to the extent that most portray this situation.
AKDejaVu
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Oh.. and eagler... what direction was Russia's economy supposed to go? Down had ceased being an option some time ago.
AKDejaVu
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I agree with SOB about the minimum wage. Why in the heck do liberals not understand basic economics? Why must minimum wage be enough to support a family? People who work at the minimum wage level are not going to be the sole bread winners in a household in most cases. In my experience, they are usually people just getting started in the workforce or retired people looking for some extra dough.
Raising the minimum wage sounds all cool til you look at other factors in the equation. Like the effect it's going to have on the struggling small business owner who is just starting out. But hey, to heck with him, he's a business owner, he's gotta have plenty of money. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
great idea same day they make minimum wage enough to put all fulltime workers above the poverty level and force the rich to have the same medical care as the poor.
Places like China are all for this
my 16 year old makes minimum wage - I made it 25 years ago too.
Yeah, I guess if I was a tard and still made it, I'd like to see raised to $40k a year, but then a gallon of milk would be around $20 :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by takeda
Conservative anarchists crack me up :D
We're called Libertarians. (http://www.lp.org/)
Originally posted by Eagler
just wondering how many others had to pay Uncle Sam this year....
We all have to pay Uncle Sam I thought? Am I missing something? I didn't pay last year because I was a student and had very low income and got credits for education expenses and EIC. But other than that I have paid every year since I was 18.
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those of us that pay, then pay again today
and those of us that pay and get paid today in the form of a rebate for one reason or another :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
Places like China are all for this
my 16 year old makes minimum wage - I made it 25 years ago too.
Yeah, I guess if I was a tard and still made it, I'd like to see raised to $40k a year, but then a gallon of milk would be around $20 :rolleyes:
But I werk hard fur muh munny! and yer sayin i aint as good as yore kind!!?!?
just cause yore a brain surgeon and i'm a toilet cleaner don't meen yer gooder.
where do ewe git off buddyy!??
tipicall rich feller, always wantin to take away from mah kind.
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Eagler if you pay today you are coming out ahead. The evil of withholding is that it denies us a fair rate of return on a large portion of our income. Instead of being able to keep the tax money all year, earning a fair rate of return in a savings account or investment, we have it confiscated by the IRS as soon as we earn it.
The people who really get screwed are those who are getting a refund today. Instead of being able to use that money to earn a rate of return, you were forced to let it sit in the Treasury for up to 16 months, only able to get it back by submitting an intrusive and overcomplicated series of forms.
It's very important to have as little money withheld as is legally possible.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Um.. are you joking udie? If not.. let me know and I can explain to you just how far up your bellybutton your head currently is.
AKDejaVu
No joke. I would submit to you that if you think somebody is crazy for squeaking about how much tax they pay you are the one with the head "far up your hass" Smells good eh? :)
Tahgut,
I know we have to pay taxes. Read my post above. I wouldn't mind paying freakin 1/2 my money in taxes if they wouldn't waste it, or if I qualified for any of the stuff they give people with my/yours/our money, but since I'm a white male southerner I get no rights as to where my tax dollars go.
Do i agree with wellfare, yes. If they would spend it right and give it to the people who actually need it, who can't work not those who won't work.
Minimum Wage? I don't know anybody who makes it besides my roommates son. It's been over 10 years since I made minimum wage. If me a highschool/college drop out can make more than the minimum so can anybody else. It sucks to be sure and I had hard times back then, but I grew as a person and saw what needed to be done to make more, and then I did it.
Personaly I think that we should be at a 15-20% flat tax. Nobody making under 30k a year would pay anything. Single moms making 40-45k or less would pay nothing. That would be fair to the poor and lower middle class. As it is now I'm with SOB, I make less cash now after my last raise :) how in the Hell does that make since?
IRS SUCKS!
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I'm reading............Happy Birthday Eagler
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I'm reading............Happy Birthday Eagler
thank you sir :)
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Flat tax may not work, but neither does the scaled tax. It does no good to charge rich people more when they are able to find more loopholes and still pay less taxes than poor people percentagewise.
I think the solution is simple: a flat rate national sales tax but necessities aren't taxed, so poor people who don't spend their money on luxuries are almost wholly exempt. I am sure the rich would still find a way around such a system.
Of course the present system isn't going to be radically changed anytime soon. Too many people's jobs depend on our current tax laws. IRS, tax lawyers, H&R Block, etc. A flat rate sales tax would virtually eliminate all of those.
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No joke. I would submit to you that if you think somebody is crazy for squeaking about how much tax they pay you are the one with the head "far up your hass" Smells good eh?
I think its crazy that someone is squeaking that they only get $600 free money totally clear for doing absolutely nothing other then being present during a booming economy.
Seems to make a tad more sence than feeling that the goverment is only out to screw everyone over any opportunity they get and they'd steal your farm if you even give them the chance because that's what they really enjoy doing.
:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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I'm all for a simplified tax system too. Has anyone ever calculated the flat tax rate necessary to maintain the budget?
And Udie......what about single FATHERS? I was in that category for many years, and I got really really sick of hearing about single moms this and single moms that. Freakin judge didn't even make that "B" I was married to pay child support!! Single mom's got it easy compared to single dads.
Case in point - Take your 5 year old daughter to a ball game, and then hear she has to go to the bathroom:eek: . Now switch the sexes and it is no longer an issue.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
I think its crazy that someone is squeaking that they only get $600 free money totally clear for doing absolutely nothing other then being present during a booming economy.
Well they sure as hell did alot more work for the money than the Feds did, just by showing up they did. That line cracks me up man, you just explained the 8 years of the Clinton administration (ie. place holder and he even screwed that up)
Seems to make a tad more sence than feeling that the goverment is only out to screw everyone over any opportunity they get and they'd steal your farm if you even give them the chance because that's what they really enjoy doing.
Well if they don't enjoy it how come they do it so much?
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Umm.. udie... you sure as hell talk like its revenue for the feds. Do they get bonuses based on how much they earn in taxes? You think the IRS announces "$1000 per employee for having a stellar year!"?
Its what we commoners call "INCOME". It doesn't seem too suprising that something called an "INCOME TAX" would be applied to it. Though... many would take the opportunity to try and explain why they really deserve much more than they are getting. Of coure... many also explain why they deserve to continue getting welfare without attempting to better their situation also.Well if they don't enjoy it how come they do it so much?
That's the point handsomehunk. They don't. People like to say they do... and they like to say it happens all the time. The truth is... it doesn't.
Unless... maybe... just maybe... you can support this with some figures?
AKDejaVu
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That's it, the socialists have won.
Not only they've succeded in conditioning people to accept the income tax, they've bread a generations of dependent recipients who will actually defend it and demand more.
Sad :(
Wonder what would Founding Fathers say? :(
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LOL! So.. we didn't have income tax because the founding fathers thought it was socialistic?
I do believe our founding fathers would have suggested having some kind of say-so in where your tax dollars were going and having some accountability for tax increases. I believe they called it representation.
It wasn't the taxation that was the problem...
AKDejaVu
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Umm... if you had a 12 dollar minimum wage (about 24k a year), how much do you think it would cost to eat at McDonalds? (or purchase anything?) The poverty line would just go higher and inflation would soar. (Warning: this is just a theory as I have no degree in economics, so correct me if I'm wrong and you have said degree.)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
And Udie......what about single FATHERS? I was in that category for many years, and I got really really sick of hearing about single moms this and single moms that. Freakin judge didn't even make that "B" I was married to pay child support!! Single mom's got it easy compared to single dads.
Case in point - Take your 5 year old daughter to a ball game, and then hear she has to go to the bathroom:eek: . Now switch the sexes and it is no longer an issue.
YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I forgot them :( same as the single moms!!!! You should have seen the crap the state of Tx put my roommate through for the past 18 yrs. It included jail (missed 1 payment) and it included not seeing his son for 3 yrs while having to send money to the state while they sent it to his ex, when he didn't even know what state she was in with thier child......
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The Founding Fathers would probably say "Income tax? Income tax? We didn't put no stinking "income tax" in this system! Get it out of there!" ;)
BTW, you guys did hear that the "top 5%" bracket starts around $121K or $122K, right? That's "feelthy rich"?
I don't mind picking up the slack for folks in trouble , are ill or who have problems through no fault of their own.
It's the goof-offs that are able-bodied and reasonably intelligent that are basically along for a free ride that make me think twice about "progressive" :rolleyes: income tax. Some folks strive to achieve and some don't. So we should penalize the achievers and reward the slackers? Oh well.
Deja: "The main reason that 1 person can pay as much in taxes as 10 people is that he is actually making 10 times more."
As they say in the car rental biz.. "not exactly". The "progressive" system insures that the more you make the more you pay and it's not exactly linear. Depends on which income group you pick the 10 people out of, doesn't it? Take a guy at the top 1% of income and I'll wager he pays FAR more tax overall than 10 guys in the bottom 1% payer bracket.
...... end of random thoughts, please continue.
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BTW, you guys did hear that the "top 5%" bracket starts around $121K or $122K, right? That's "feelthy rich"?
to the guy struggling at < 25k it is :)
but you are right, many two family incomes now fall into the "top 5%"
I think joe six pack thinks of the Bill Gates & co when "top 5%" is mentioned
Just peeves me to see these fat arse politicans spewing this nonsense we can't do without heavy taxation. And with 50% only paying 5%, they have many ignorant ears to spew too ...
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As they say in the car rental biz.. "not exactly". The "progressive" system insures that the more you make the more you pay and it's not exactly linear. Depends on which income group you pick the 10 people out of, doesn't it? Take a guy at the top 1% of income and I'll wager he pays FAR more tax overall than 10 guys in the bottom 1% payer bracket.
And.. while I'd like to feel sorry for those poor souls trying to scrape by in the top 1% of the income bracket... I'm just not mustering it.
I don't like the free-loading permanent welfare types. Not the ones that just can't climb up... but the ones that don't even reach for the rungs.
I just feel it isn't all that unreasonable for someone to give up a little more to take up for the fact that some people just can't afford to. I seriously doubt the extra taxation will be more of an irritation than worrying if you will be able to feed your children next week.
Personally... I'm very near the "upper 5%". I feel the crunch of taxes since my wife and I both work and have no children. I still maintain that me having to complain about the taxes I pay on $100,000 per year pale in comparison to the worries that many others have to endure.
Yet.. here we go again.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Eagler
I think joe six pack thinks of the Bill Gates & co when "top 5%" is mentioned
Of course; you're exactly right.
However, as you point out, many "typical" US married couples, with both partners working, that busted their *sses to get educated in their chosen fields and then busted their *sses to get good at what they do and then busted their *sses to get a good job in those fields..... make up a significant portion of those haughty, spoiled, rich bastiges in the "top 5%".
They must be punished for their success! Light the bonfire! :)
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Deja, it's why the whole system needs a serious overhaul and change of direction.
As someone pointed out, however, that won't happen because "taxes" are big business. HR Block isn't going to support a "simple" tax.
I recognize the need for some people to be exempt by income. Therefore, you're always going to have some paying more than others.
I personally favor a "flat tax + national sales tax combo". I'd exempt people below a certain level of income from the flat tax and I'd only put the sales tax on items that are not "necessity"
items.
I think that system would have a whole lot more "fairness" in it than the one we have now.
The other factor is that there have been a few studies around the world that show one common point. When tax rates approach 40% on "the rich", "the rich" shift to spending more time/money into avoiding paying taxes rather than making more money which a goverment can then tax (building their businesses). I think the most famous study was done in Sweden on it. Guess where the top US bracket is now?
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However, as you point out, many "typical" US married couples, with both partners working, that busted their *sses to get educated in their chosen fields and then busted their *sses to get good at what they do and then busted their *sses to get a good job in those fields..... make up a significant portion of those haughty, spoiled, rich bastiges in the "top 5%".
And what about those people that bust their bellybutton just as and make less money? Truth be told... I've never seen a consistant correlation between anual salary and "busting ass".Deja, it's why the whole system needs a serious overhaul and change of direction.
I disagree. Changes are needed... but serious overhaul and change of direction?
Do you like paying taxes: "NO!"
Do you think changes should be made: "YES!"
Seems the only solution is to eliminate the need for the first question.I personally favor a "flat tax + national sales tax combo". I'd exempt people below a certain level of income from the flat tax and I'd only put the sales tax on items that are not "necessity" items.
I'm totally against a national sales tax. Especially a "luxury" tax. It is a hinderance towards encouraging people to attain better things.
I am also a believe that the tax rate should be dropped across the country.... though not the % variation. The government should be forced to manage the tax $$$ better. I'd sense some true reform as a result... though it would also bring about a recession.
What still gets me about the people complaining about a totally unexpected bonus is simply the fact that they were just handed money and chose to complain about it. That will always amaze me. Its like complaining about it raining outside and ruining your picnic, despite the fact that it just ended a 100 day drought that was ruining crops.
Rain and taxes... there's just no use in complaining every time they happen.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
LOL! So.. we didn't have income tax because the founding fathers thought it was socialistic?
that's not what I said. I meant that the Founding Fathers would consider it immoral and illegal to take someone's property. They did not know socialism then, so they could not reject income tax as socialist, only as immoral and illegal.
It's just that the solialism embraced the idea of "justified" extortion and succeded dim masses that it actually is not only ok, but it is for the "greater" good. Obviously, many bought it.
I do believe our founding fathers would have suggested having some kind of say-so in where your tax dollars were going and having some accountability for tax increases. I believe they called it representation.
You almost got it, but you've missed a part the the person paying has to be the same as the one that is represented. With the progressive income tax where 50% pays nothing or even negative tax in a form of EIC, we are hardly represented.
People who do not pay taxes vote to tax people who do pay, and then they demand the wealth transfer to the losers.
A theft, plain and simple.
Note: I'm talking about progressive income tax, not about taxes in general. Obviously we need taxes, but they have to be just.
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Welp, the IRS has found an error in my favor in the past, but they still scare the piss out of me.
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With the progressive income tax where 50% pays nothing or even negative tax in a form of EIC, we are hardly represented.
LOL! Hell.. when you say it like that...
Of course.. that's not an exageration:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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As one of my law professors used to say, it's okay if your heart bleeds, so long as it bleeds green! I submit that most who defend the current tax system either have so much money that it doesn't matter what rate they pay or make so little that it is fun to stick it to the "rich" guys.
I grew up poor/middle class and thought the tax system was fine. I went to college/graduate school/law school for 12 years so that I could get a good job that would allow me to support my wife and our future children without requiring her to work. I bought a house and contributed to many charitable causes, thinking that I would be entitled to nice deductions.
Well, guess what? The line between "rich" people who get screwed by the IRS and middle-class is much lower than most people realize. I have only been working for a few years, and already a sizable percentage of my itemized deductions are disqualified. In a few years, they will be gone completely! Maybe by then, I won't care (I will, of course), but right now it really pinches (between income tax, property tax, and sales tax, I paid over 50% of my income to the government this year).
It's easy to be self-righteous and indignant when you're sitting in the cheap seats, watching rather than playing. When you've just paid $80k in federal income tax, I want you to let go of your ankles, stand up, and tell me how good it felt.
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Getting 1209 back from the Feds.
I was going to launch into a tirade about how much fun it is for me to go to the DMV, pay my taxes, get building permits, etc., but what's the point? I guess, with my experiences with most governments (I have run into some city governments that are amazingly efficient, but few and far between) I have been SO impressed by their efficiency and pursuit of my best interest, that I can't wait to give them more of my money....
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
It's easy to be self-righteous and indignant when you're sitting in the cheap seats, watching rather than playing. When you've just paid $80k in federal income tax, I want you to let go of your ankles, stand up, and tell me how good it felt.
I wish I had your problems :D
Wanna switch ?
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Originally posted by fd ski
I wish I had your problems :D
Wanna switch ?
no need to switch, You both can be in the same position. It's not a zero sum game. You can have your money (however much you want to make) and he can keep his.
Heck, even I won't be negatively affected by your success ... succeed away:)
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well, i'm a horrible runner. Could never quite keep up with ambulances :D
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You'll never see my mug in a TV ad or on the back cover of the Yellow Pages. I'm not a very good runner either! :)
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You paid over $80,000 in Federal income tax alone? You made nearly $270,000 last year? That leaves $55,000 in sales tax and property tax? My god man... how much is your estate worth?
The horrors.
AKDejaVu
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I think not.
Have you ever tracked your sales taxes, particularly in a year when you bought two cars? Plus, property tax on a house and one piece of investment property ads up pretty fast. That is particularly true in TX, where sales and property tax rates are exceptionally high (due, in part, to the lack of a state income tax).
I don't care how much money you make, you should never have to give half of it to the government.
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Originally posted by fd ski
well, i'm a horrible runner. Could never quite keep up with ambulances :D
:D
No needfor it. I am talking about earning money, not stealing it as lawyers do. If a puny engineer like myself can make it, so can you.
Just remember, it's not the effort, it's the result. Sweat does not pay, the goddies you've produced do :)
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double post]
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Have you ever tracked your sales taxes, particularly in a year when you bought two cars?
Hard to argue with that one.:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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really ?
Let's talk about how a teacher can make a fortune ?
Or maybe a civil worker ?
We can't all be techies or lawyers ya know :)
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Put me in for tax reform.. please.
The tax code is so bizzare an army of lawyer/accountants on the government payroll can't even figure it out.
If EVERYBODY in this country had a flat percentage of 10% of their income, and Buisness paid 5% of it's income the national economy would boom, government would be outta debt, the national health plan would be here now and Jerry Springer would run outta material the next day.
How bout it.. a ONE SENTANCE tax code:
Allah you folks with jobs, pay 10%, all buisnesses pay 5%.. no exclusions; no exceptions.
Wouldn't that be sweeeet?
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Fd Ski:
This is not about how much you make. It is, rather, about the fact that the tax code is fundamentally flawed in far too many ways to discuss here (I'm with you on the flat tax, Hang). It will remain as it is, however, because, as someone mentioned earlier, our society has far too much invested in it now to suffer a dramatic change.
My point is simply that the "rich" vs. middle class or poor conflict that the liberals have worked so hard to foster (and which further guarantees that the tax code will not radically change) is pure, unadulterated crap. Not only is it detrimental to society, but also it is grounded in misperceptions. Many people, like myself, that get hit hardest by the tax code (in ways I would not have imagined five years ago) live modest lifestyles and would not be considered "rich" by any ordinary understanding of that term.
I am sick and tired of being told by liberal politicians that I am not paying my share. What, exactly, is my share? What else do they want? How about I just send each of my paychecks directly to Washington and they can decide how much of it to send back to me? It would be sort of like an allowance.
If what you really want to argue is that teachers (or social workers or nurses or pastors or counsors or any number of other professionals) should make more money or that it is, as a practical matter, impossible to raise a family of four on a teacher's salary, I won't disagree. For all its advantages, one drawback of our market system is that one's remuneration is not necessarily tied to the societal value of his work. There are, however, other, more important rewards than money. Just ask any teacher who really loves his job.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
And what about those people that bust their bellybutton just as and make less money? Truth be told... I've never seen a consistant correlation between anual salary and "busting ass"..
Bust your *ss and make less money.. you pay less tax. Doesn't change the fact that the ones that succeed shouldn't be punished for their success. That's what's wrong with the system right there. We punish the successful ones... it's why when effective tax rates approach 40% people spend more time avoiding tax than trying to earn more.
I'm totally against a national sales tax. Especially a "luxury" tax. It is a hinderance towards encouraging people to attain better things
So, taxing these same folks' income at the highest rates whether they buy "luxury" items or not is a better deal? At lease with the national sales tax they have a choice. There's no choice involved with the income tax.
The government should be forced to manage the tax $$$ better.
I doubt very many would argue with you there.. but it IS Congress we're talking about, so no chance.
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My boss and his creative accountant are always reminding me
..it ain't about how much we make. it's all about how much we keep..[/b]
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I'm just a naive teenager here, but I have a question about this notion of a national sales tax - how does this make sense? The sales tax is a state tax, and many states rely upon it to help bring in the cash they need to make the budget work. Some, like NH, don't have a sales tax - they usually compensate, with high property taxes, in that example. So when the federal government takes over the sales tax, what happens? It sounds like most of that money will then go to the Feds. So how does this work? Do the individual states have to rely even more on the federal government for money? Is more federal control over state governments what you (predominantly conservative, middle-class) guys want? It make no sense to me... But perhaps I'm missing out on some of the details.
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ispar, the feds will not "take over" the state sales tax, that will stay with the states, the fed govt will have it's own sales tax in return for dropping the income tax.
as for a flat tax, years ago PA inacted a flat 5% state income tax based on fed adj gross income, the tax was illegal by PA's constution so it was changed to 2.5% on UNADJUSTED gross income,
the 2.5% on UNADJUSTED gross income brought in MORE money than 5% on adjusted gross income, but me and all my fellow workers ended up paying LESS taxes.
talk among yourselves
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Originally posted by fd ski
really ?
Let's talk about how a teacher can make a fortune ?
Or maybe a civil worker ?
We can't all be techies or lawyers ya know :)
free market, supply and demand, market price... but this is an entirely different thread.
BTW, not sure what you meant by civil worker, I'm guessing "civil servant", a someone on a government dough.
Do you really want the civil workers to make a fortune?
No work + no responsibility + no accountability + can't be fired + can mess up other people's lives at will + and now, a fortune in salary?...
.. a perfect job. We all should be "civil servants":)
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how much of it to send back to me? It would be sort of like an allowance.
Yes, this is what they want
because, of course, they know how to spend it better than you do :)
Just seems to me that when the liberal politicans are speaking to a group of their voters about repealing Bushs tax changes - how it is ruining the country and is the cause of the recession :rolleyes: , the room looks like its full of a bunch of democrats which are in the lower 50% paying 5% of the total tax burden to start with ...
it's an envy thing - pure and simple - which the libs are using to their fullest advantage
damn those "rich" ppl anyway :)
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Ah tax time....
My parents did the best tax planning for me well in advance of my income earning years. They had me in Bermuda!
No income taxes...none...zero...ziltch. ..zippo
nah, nah nananah
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Originally posted by mietla
BTW, not sure what you meant by civil worker, I'm guessing "civil servant", a someone on a government dough.
Do you really want the civil workers to make a fortune?
No work + no responsibility + no accountability + can't be fired + can mess up other people's lives at will + and now, a fortune in salary?...
.. a perfect job. We all should be "civil servants":)
You're confusing the results with the cause.
:)
Civil worker, as in the lady who takes care of homeless, lectures alcoholics, deals with dugaddicts, and wipes the bellybutton for the low income old lady who can no longer care of herself.
LoneStarBuckeye
"There are, however, other, more important rewards than money. Just ask any teacher who really loves his job."
Yeah, right. Money is not a problem until you don't have it.
Ask a teacher couple trying to raise a family of 3 kids on their salaries about their "work" satisfaction.
Idealism is nice until you have to live it.
Eagler
"Just seems to me that when the liberal politicans are speaking to a group of their voters about repealing Bushs tax changes - how it is ruining the country and is the cause of the recession , the room looks like its full of a bunch of democrats which are in the lower 50% paying 5% of the total tax burden to start with ... "
I'm a liberal, I guess you could say, and I'm about 10k/year away from being in 5% of the top tax bracket, hince supporting everyone else. Any other stereotypes you can offer ?
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fd ski
do you feel the Bush tax reduction is a good thing for the country or do you think you should pay higher taxes?
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Originally posted by Eagler
fd ski
do you feel the Bush tax reduction is a good thing for the country or do you think you should pay higher taxes?
Well, 600$ didn't make a damn bit of differance, as far as I care.
And policy of running debt is against my personal beliefs :) Aka, if you have debt, you should try to live within your means -> income => expences.
This is a sound policy that every good republican will advocate, yet we don't want it in our government :)
Btw, from news yesterday it looks like spending is about to go though the roof again. I have a feeling that 600$ will be going back to government soon enough.
Overall, I paid something like 20% of my income in federal taxes. I'd gladly pay 30% if that would provide me with a guaranteed safety net, if I was to be hit by a bus and paralized tomorrow.
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ski: "I'd gladly pay 30% if that would provide me with a guaranteed safety net, if I was to be hit by a bus and paralized tomorrow."
I'd speculate that the amount of money in that 10% increase per year would buy you an excellent "safety net" insurance policy (ie: long term care policy.. I think that's what you're talking about) out in the marketplace. Would you rather select your own and make a choice or have the government do you choosing for you? Just curious.
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Originally posted by Toad
I'd speculate that the amount of money in that 10% increase per year would buy you an excellent "safety net" insurance policy (ie: long term care policy.. I think that's what you're talking about) out in the marketplace. Would you rather select your own and make a choice or have the government do you choosing for you? Just curious.
I would first have to have enough money for a lawyer who would have to force them to pay my policy :)
If you don't trust government, how can you trust a company ?
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Fd Ski:
I am anything but idealistic. I am a realist. When I say that there are rewards more important than money, I am simply stating the obvious: that some people (e.g., teachers who love their jobs), must value other things over money, because otherwise they would not have chosen their professions.
I do not do what I would do if money were taken out of the equation. If money were no object, I would be the engineer that I trained for 8 years to become. I made the decision, however, that financial security was more important to me and my family than to have a career that might be more personally rewarding than the one I currently have. Everyone knows the rules. Everyone knows that when they decide to become teachers or social workers, they are not going to make a lot of money. Our market economy generally offers full and fair disclosure in that regard.
I'm happy to hear that you'd be willing to pay another 10% of your income to insure a safety net for YOU. That's great. Obviously, as indicated in an earlier post, you could afford to purchase such security for yourself. That's not the point of wealth redistribution through taxes. The point is that you would be paying that extra 10% to purchase the safety net for someone else who could not afford it himself.
Do I think that everyone has a responsibility to his fellow man? Yes. Do I think that eveyrone has a responsibilty to do what he can to see that the people in his community that are truly in need have enough to eat, a place to sleep, and proper medical care? Yes. Do I think that the government can choose more wisely than me how to spend my money to address those convictions? Emphatically, NO!
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Let's see...
You would trust "government" to take your money and provide a "safety net" long term care policy for you...
... but you wouldn't trust that very same government, through its insurance regulators, to make sure you "got what you paid for" from an insurance company that sold you a much better long term care policy for (most likely) far less money?
I've got an idea.. why not allow both sides a choice. Guys like you can opt for a government run program that you yourselves pay for through taxes.
Guys like me can elect not to participate and I'll buy my own long term care on the open market. I'll swear NEVER to use your governmental system, too.
:D
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Originally posted by fd ski
You're confusing the results with the cause.
:)
Civil worker, as in the lady who takes care of homeless, lectures alcoholics, deals with dugaddicts, and wipes the bellybutton for the low income old lady who can no longer care of herself.
No I am not confusing anything. As I said, market place should decide how much your work is worth.
The last thing I want is the government to decide the value of my work.
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Originally posted by fd ski
If you don't trust government, how can you trust a company ?
Funny, bacause I frequently use the same argument backward.
"If you don't trust a company, how can you trust the government?"
That's why:
The companies don't have an army of armed goons like IRS, whose sole purpose in life is to harass you by accusing you of cheating, taking away and selling your property and then leaving it to you to go to courrt to prove you are innocent. Even if you prove it, your property is gone and they owe you nothing.
Remember the stories surfaced during the alleged "IRS (we need to make an IRS customer friendly) gunk reform".
The companies do not have jails to put you in if you respectfully decline to use their services.