Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Seagoon on April 17, 2002, 11:26:49 AM
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Hi All,
I've been thinking recently of what relatively simple changes could be made to the game to improve overall gameplay. One idea in particular stands out in my mind - CHARACTER PROGRESSION.
One thing that conspicuously depresses the quality of play and realism of the game is the absolute disregard players have for the lives of their pilots. CV bothering you? Load up a Jabo and Kazi that critter. 9 to 1 odds in a furball? No problem, lemmee at 'em I might take one or two with me! Field totally capped? Lessee if I can get a bomber into the air anyway. etc.
I'm sure you could all come up with similar scenarios where "who cares if I live" has added an arcade-like quality to the game. Perhaps not even arcade - there you at least loose your money when you die three times. So here is an idea to counter that: make character development progressive and reset it if a character dies or is captured. It seems to me that there are two ways to do this:
1) The easiest way - Simply reset ranking to zero when a pilot dies or is captured.
2) Introduce actual ranking tied to characters - i.e. start them out as 2nd Lts. (or whichever country ranking you prefer) and progress them with a similar reset if killed/captured. You could even introduce medals for number of kills, etc. Some sort of time & kills methodology could be worked out.
This would also encourage players to actually "walk" their bailed pilots home - the seaplane/pilot rescue thread could also be worked in here.
I think these changes would make the overall feel more like a war sim. and less like Nintendo. ;) What do you guys think? HT Staff?
- Seagoon
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People who have fun jumping into 9v1 furballs aren't going to be detered by loss of score or rank.
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Maybe for the CT. It would be interesting, but only when there are actual rescue (and capture!) capabilities in place. I swam/walked to a friendly base once in TOD... it took an hour, and I just made it in time, too. It made a fun and immersive evening, but something like this does not belong in the MA.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi All,
I've been thinking recently of what relatively simple changes could be made to the game to improve overall gameplay. One idea in particular stands out in my mind - CHARACTER PROGRESSION.
Join as squad. And don't rely on the game to define your character. Its the nice thing about an only-real-people playing an on-line game... they don't fit into nice neat categories or rankingsOne thing that conspicuously depresses the quality of play and realism of the game is the absolute disregard players have for the lives of their pilots. CV bothering you? Load up a Jabo and Kazi that critter. 9 to 1 odds in a furball? No problem, lemmee at 'em I might take one or two with me! Field totally capped? Lessee if I can get a bomber into the air anyway. etc.
I completely disagree that it depresses the quality of play. If anything... it makes it more fun. Or is there another way to gauge the success of playing a game?
As for it depressing the level of realism... I can't help but chuckle at the realistic scenarios being ruined by unrealistic behavior you site. CVs weren't parked 3 miles off of enemy shores. Groups of aircraft didn't fly circles indefinately over an enemy base at 500 feet waiting for someone to take off. Its the fact that the game doesn't really simulate realism in any way (with the exception of flight modeling) that depresses the level of realism. Basically... you are arguing that unrealistic scenarios are being met with unrealistic behavior.I'm sure you could all come up with similar scenarios where "who cares if I live" has added an arcade-like quality to the game.
Everyone could come up with scenarios to describe virtually every opinion/example of virtually anything they wanted to state.So here is an idea to counter that: make character development progressive and reset it if a character dies or is captured. It seems to me that there are two ways to do this:
1) The easiest way - Simply reset ranking to zero when a pilot dies or is captured.
2) Introduce actual ranking tied to characters - i.e. start them out as 2nd Lts. (or whichever country ranking you prefer) and progress them with a similar reset if killed/captured. You could even introduce medals for number of kills, etc. Some sort of time & kills methodology could be worked out.
This would also encourage players to actually "walk" their bailed pilots home - the seaplane/pilot rescue thread could also be worked in here.
I fail to see how this would do anything you claim it would.
1) Introducing "rank" to the MA would be detrimental to the basic concept. Log in... play and log out. Now... you end up making those that just want to get into a dogfight (win or lose) some kind of second class citizens.
2) You are promoting "only engage with a distinct advantage" behavior. Think you've seen complaints about gang-banging and milk-running lately?... they pale in comparison to what would emerge from this.I think these changes would make the overall feel more like a war sim. and less like Nintendo. ;) What do you guys think? HT Staff?
Who wants the MA to be a simulation of war? I thought it was an arena to pit various aircraft vs various other aircraft.
Maybe you want scenarios?
AKDejaVu
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yeah i see no way that this could work
at best it would be ignored by 99% of the arena.
The 1% would scream when their chutes are shot. Would scream to be rescued, would scream when ho'd
if anything it would be detrimental to the game...
SKurj
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I will be Unter Barf Furher Pongo.
All will tremble at me presence and obay....
Then the game will realistic.
Sorry but it is just funny for the reasons DJ pointed out. The game is designed to be interesting and quick paced. Not realistic.
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Seagoon: your proposal makes death way to high of factor.
Sounds realy neet to put a hi cost on death until you think a little furthar how that effects everone elses play along with your own.
Death can work when you are not fighting other people,but when fighting other people for every victory there is 1 death. Therefore if eveyone wants to live there are no targets.
What happens when you put to hi of emphesis on living is people tend to spend lots of time running and not engaging.
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Score does exactly what in this game?/ Do you get a discount? :) Do you get a free perk plane????
Dunno what my score is and don't care, same for perk points. I have too little time to fly to have either of these issues to be of ANY concern. I simply can't do anything about them. I just want to get online and fly MY game and enjoy myself. Score is for those who need a life substitute (IMO). It simply is meaningless.
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How about a twist to it HT:
-Add "ranks" to game. Aka, 2nd lt, Latrine Licker or Ensign. Increase 1 rank per every X number of kills OR fly X number of sorties. Aka, from rank0 to rank1 you must get 3 kills or fly 5 sorties, rank1 to rank2 you must get 5 kills or fly 10 sorties, and so on.
-Rank resets to 0 upon death or capture. Ditching or bailing makes your kills that sortie be divided by 2 (so 2 kill sortie and you bail, it would count as 1 kill only for rank)
-Add a "CAREER" option in the hangar list. "Career", when checked, would make the next sortie be a career flight (aka, kills there go towards rank). If its unchecked then that sortie will not count towards rank (and dying or bailing when flying non-career sortie wont reset rank to 0)
Why is rank good for?
The higher the rank, the cheaper the perk rides.
So those who furball quake with no care in the world get no benefit (but do get to try and HO the perk rides anyway) and no penalty. Those who want to fly perk rides more often can fly to live and increase their rank... penalty for death is going back to square 1, benefit for living is cheaper perk rides.
This would appeal to both crowds, and does not exclude either of them from what the other has (fly to live vs. furball for fun).
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Originally posted by Tac
-Add "ranks" to game. Aka, 2nd lt, Latrine Licker or Ensign. Increase 1 rank per every X number of kills OR fly X number of sorties. Aka, from rank0 to rank1 you must get 3 kills or fly 5 sorties, rank1 to rank2 you must get 5 kills or fly 10 sorties, and so on.
The military has rank simply to answer the question "why should I have to do what you say?" Why does Aces High need it?-Rank resets to 0 upon death or capture. Ditching or bailing makes your kills that sortie be divided by 2 (so 2 kill sortie and you bail, it would count as 1 kill only for rank)
So... promote cowardly behavior to maintain rank. If it looks a bit hairy... bail before someone is in proximity kill range. Preserve your rank at all costs. Nah.. that wouldn't happen... people don't game a game.-Add a "CAREER" option in the hangar list. "Career", when checked, would make the next sortie be a career flight (aka, kills there go towards rank). If its unchecked then that sortie will not count towards rank (and dying or bailing when flying non-career sortie wont reset rank to 0)
LOL! It kinda defeats the purpose of the whole thing.Why is rank good for?
The higher the rank, the cheaper the perk rides.
ROTFLMAO! And why would you want to reward this specific behavior with cheaper perk rides? What in the hell would entitle any specific group of people to cheaper perk rides?So those who furball quake with no care in the world get no benefit (but do get to try and HO the perk rides anyway) and no penalty. Those who want to fly perk rides more often can fly to live and increase their rank... penalty for death is going back to square 1, benefit for living is cheaper perk rides.
Hehehehe... you are on a roll. Give the cheap perks to people that are prone to only engage with an advantage... and make fun of those simply out to shoot down aircraft.This would appeal to both crowds, and does not exclude either of them from what the other has (fly to live vs. furball for fun).
I'm sorry... how does this appeal to the "quake" crowd again? I mean... other than by deaming their style of flight less acceptable and less deserving of reward?
AKDejaVu
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I don't know, seems to me sometimes we are to quick to judge and ridcule some ideas.
Somewhere between Seagoon and Tac's suggestion is an idea that people might like.
Variation, whatabout - Perks and/or rankings based on performance during that tour? with perk award at end of each tour.
Could be based on K/T or K/D ratio, or total points for each category.
Our maybe factored on Sorties*Kills*Landed*Deaths.
Just an idea.
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Originally posted by MajTom
I don't know, seems to me sometimes we are to quick to judge and ridcule some ideas.
:rolleyes: Somewhere between Seagoon and Tac's suggestion is an idea that people might like.
Their ideas are not really on opposite ends of the spectrum. And there is always an area that some people might like. The trick is getting it to not be exclusionary in principal. The whole concept of rewarding one specific type of behavior with "rank" is both elitist and exclusionary. Its really as simple as that.Variation, whatabout - Perks and/or rankings based on performance during that tour? with perk award at end of each tour.
Could be based on K/T or K/D ratio, or total points for each category.
Our maybe factored on Sorties*Kills*Landed*Deaths.
Just an idea.
"Ranking" is already done by each tour based on a wide variety of statistics. Perks are already awarded uniformly. What is quite simply outlandish is the concept that the better performing pilots deserve even more perks. Or that some type of applied "rank" needs to be assigned. Its an arena.. not a war.
AKDejaVu
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Hi Guys,
Well it was just an idea. If in the end an idea negatively impacts the bottom line - i.e. the willingness of people to pay to play - then it isn't a good one, so I'm more than willing to accept HTs criticism as final.
Since career progression and linking ranking to staying alive is a no go, can I get your ideas on how best to deal with the following?
First, I don't view AH as a pure flight sim. I'm primarily a strategic wargamer and it's the alliance of strategic wargame to first person action in AH that appeals to me. If the game was just to fly around aimlessly getting into furballs, I wouldn't be playing.
I've been playing flight sims since the early Apple 2 days, and my first online flight sim experience was with AW on Genie way back in the CGA days. I know from long experience that I'm not a "natural" sim pilot and will never be one. I can score the odd kill against the SA impaired or when I have a much better ride, but apart from that I'm Spam in a Can. Any 14 year old trained up on play station can scorch me - and that despite the fact that I've been reading books on CM for donkeys ages. While I'm a lousy fighter pilot, I'm a good bomber hack, and fairly good at the strategic elements of the game. The system at present favors the furballers disproportionately, so the aforementioned 14 year old is always going to rank higher regardless of whether hes actually helping to win the game. Its also not going to encourage teamwork or more sane flying behavior. I may be the only one, but for me its a tad frustrating to watch bases being taken while guys fight aimlessly at central island and/or grab control of the CV and take it on an idiotic suicide run. I actually had one guy tell me when I asked him on a private channel why he was moving the CV that he just wanted an open uncapped base closer to the action to up from so he moved the CV as close as possible to the enemy.
Is the answer for guys in my situation to just deal with it or is there another solution? This isn't a whine, just an honest question.
Thanks again.
- Seagoon
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Get involved with a squad. Get involved with scenarios.
Try to avoid bending the MA to your preferences. They aren't all that matters.
AKDejaVu
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Deja, you do realize that flying a quake plane actually rewards the player with more perks per hour than a non-quake plane?
So using your "And why would you want to reward this specific behavior with cheaper perk rides?"
Why should those people be rewarded with more perks than those that fly to live? From my view this gives BOTH sides something to play for. One for fun (quake all they want with no care if they die) and those who like to RTB and land their sorties (rewarded with cheaper perk rides AND more perk points if they land it). Both lose something in return, the quakers dont get cheaper perk planes (but they can still get perks much faster than those that fly to live), and those that fly to live ONLY keep their cheaper perks as long as they retain their rank. And you KNOW some #$@# n1kdweeb will HO a Colonel at 25k if they can. And no, rank is NOT shown in the icon, only on roster and kill msgs.
"The military has rank simply to answer the question "why should I have to do what you say?" Why does Aces High need it?"
No one orders anyone Deja. Its just to give it a name. You could call them "Levels" for all I care.
"So... promote cowardly behavior to maintain rank. If it looks a bit hairy... bail before someone is in proximity kill range. Preserve your rank at all costs. Nah.. that wouldn't happen... people don't game a game"
So... promote quake/arcade behaviour. If it looks a bit hairy... HO before they get you. Get the kill at all costs. Nah.. that wouldnt happen.. people dont game a game.
"LOL! It kinda defeats the purpose of the whole thing."
No, it actually balances it. Its like having 2 personas in AH with 1 account. If you feel like quaking, uncheck it. Quake to your heart's delight.None of the kills you get or sorties you fly count towards your rank. If you want to build up your rank for the day when you can get a 262 at 50 perks... then check it and fly that sortie.. and dont die!.
""Ranking" is already done by each tour based on a wide variety of statistics. Perks are already awarded uniformly. What is quite simply outlandish is the concept that the better performing pilots deserve even more perks. Or that some type of applied "rank" needs to be assigned. Its an arena.. not a war'
Ranking as it is now only tells you what you are in relation to all others. That includes, the clueless newbs, the learning newbs, the quaking newbs, the quake crowds, the fly-a-certain-plane crowd, fly-axis/allied only crowd, the fight&rtb crowd and the scorepotato crowd.
The ranking Im proposing shows nothing of this. All it does is give a name to someone thats advancing his level (aka rank or whatever you want to call it).
The "better performing pilots" already get more perks, thats a moot point.
"The whole concept of rewarding one specific type of behavior with "rank" is both elitist and exclusionary"
Spare me. Both sides have access to the same chance at getting rank/level/whatchamacallit. Think that because someone flew 20 missions and shot down 50 people and rtb'd each and every one of them and earned his "colonel" or whatever rank is better than you in your n1k flying 20 missions, shooting down 90 people and dying 20 times JUST because of a stupid name/label? What are you really crying out against? the system or the naming?
"Give the cheap perks to people that are prone to only engage with an advantage... and make fun of those simply out to shoot down aircraft."
Both are out "simply to shoot down aircraft" deja..thats the whole point of the game. See above, right now the quake crowd can get more perks per hour than those that dont quake. You think thats fair? You think it promotes BOTH kinds of flying?
If you are strat minded and like to CAP your CV , or protect your HQ, or do anything besides furballing, you end up with little or no perks BUT you are helping your side win much more than the guy in the n1k creaming everyone in middle island while the homeland gets captured. You think its fair to see the strat guy starved for perks while the guy that didnt give a damn about the team drowns in them? At least with my system both sides get an equal chance to play either way. Those that get little perks per hour BUT land their sorties get their rank and thus cheaper perks.. those that get more perks per hour furballing and dont land their sorties will be at the same "perk plane purchasing power" than someone that has been flying "career" and get his perk rides cheaper.
Take a SpitV/IX or N1k or La7 and dive into a furball. Do it for an hour. See how many kills and how many perks you add up. Dying dont matter. Then grab a 190D9 or P51 and fly to live, see how many kills you get in an hour.. how many perks you get in return.
Just to give you an idea, spitV is 20 eny, SpitIX is 10 eny, P-51D is 12 eny. In a furball, you can get around 12 kills in 30 minutes with a spitV. In a non-furball situation.. like intercepting those 5 lancs otw to plaster your fields or HQ, the P-51D may shoot down 1 or 2 bombers in the same 30 minutes. Perks gained by spitV? Around 18+ total (more if it shot down n1ks and la7s) . Perks for P-51D? 6 perks or lower.
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when killed or captured reduce perk points to zero.
perk costs for planes should be a bit cheaper then, and maybe more planes should be perked (but very cheap).
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I agree with Tac completely. It would give those of us who fly with the intent on helping the team more of a chance to fly the perk planes. I hate furballs and I avoid them whenever I can so I am 'rewarded' by very few perk points. Tac's idea would give me a chance to at least fly one of the perk planes every once in a while.
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This'll be my last post on the subject...
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Get involved with a squad. Get involved with scenarios.
I'm already a member of a non-furballing squad that usually focuses on taking bases.
Try to avoid bending the MA to your preferences. They aren't all that matters.
AKDejaVu [/B]
Hey AKDejaVu, what on earth justified that comment? "bending the MA to my preferences???" I just asked a question. I was wondering if anyone else thought character progression might be a good idea as it has been an asset in every other sim I've played. The majority answer was NO and I've accepted that. When did I assert that "my preferences where all that matters???" I pay my monthly dues same as everyone else and I put up with game behavior which I (and others I've spoken too) consider extremely frustrating. I was wondering if there might be a way to get some help with that - apparently your answer is a resounding NO again. You can tell me to deal with it, but please do me the favor of not asserting I'm trying to "bend" the game or that I consider my preferences to be the be all and all. What I would "prefer" in this is supremely unimportant, I was just asking if something would actually work better.
- Seagoon
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I also like TAC's suggestion. Shooting down a high ranking pilot, knowing what it took for the pilot to attain that rank, would be as much fun as shooting down a 262. At the very least it would be nice to see a 'streak' counter that would keep track of the number of successful (ie not resulting in death or capture) sorties a pilot flew. If for not other reason that to let individual set goals for their own flying. It would be nicer if that number of successful sorties somehow factored into the perks you recieve, just as dying will cut the perks you get on a sortie.
One additional suggestion, for those times when folks do want to quake out and do pure furballing, it would be real nice to see a seperate furball arena. This arena should only have 1 base and 1 plane type available. Killshooter should be enabled within 5 miles of the field to avoid vulching. With only 1 plane available, pilots would have to depend on their skills and not advantages of the machine to score kills.
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No tac.. if you add "the button"... you get the "ok.. milkrun time..." "did you say vulching at base xxx?" scenario.
Right now... everyone has the same opportunity to get perk points. I fly to live whenever I can and I have more than enough to keep me in perks for a whole tour if I wanted.
This whole "flying to live" argument is simply silly. Everyone flies to live except for those that dive in on CVs. You try to shoot others down.
Basically.. you are mutating "flying to live" with "don't engage unless you think you will live". Now... tell me how that's supposed to be fun for anyone? Basically... you have to rely on someone not as concerned about score to get a kill... because anyone flying the same way you are is simply going to dance around you.
"Quake" flying is no more rewarded than any other style. Flying forever waiting for the perfect opportunity is rewarded to the level it should be. Nothing ventured... nothing gained.
Right now its simple.. if you want to get perk points... you have to be doing something other than just flying around.
AKDejaVu
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>OR fly X number of sorties.
Whats a sortie then? Can I milk the system by going to a remote field and flying patterns for an hour and come out a general?
You can give yourselves whatever little ranks you want. Thats fine by me. Just as long it confers absolutely no advantage to anyone who has rank over anyone who doesn't feel like spending time to stroke the system.
If you just want it as a symbol of the length your current streak, thats fine. As long as it stays purely symbolic.
Wab
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There was a movie that hit me pretty hard... a ww2 aviator movie.
Tuskagee Airmen
I can't say that it was all too stirring on a segregation level (main gist of the movie)... but what moved me was the philosophy of the unit when they got to Europe.
If they were assigned to escort bombers, they did it... putting their lifes on the line. Their K/D record wasn't anywhere near the best for WW2 fighter/escort units... but their record of loosing 0 bombers to enemy fighters was tops.
In AH, there is no motivation to risk anything outside of having fun doing it. Any system that puts surviving as a primary criteria is flawed to the core as a result.
AKDejaVu
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you already get a bonus for flying to live. There's a perk point multiplier for landing safely, IIRC. You shoot down a Spit IX in a 109G2, land it and get more perks than someone who shoots down a Spit IX in a 109G2 and dies. Maybe the multipliers should be bigger, but the fact is they are already there.
Maybe add a kill streak counter, though, to track how many kills you get across multiple sorties before you die.
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Good for the CT maybe...NOT for the MA.
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Its fine the way it is..Who cares about kamikazis..they have to take the time to grab alt again..........You guys make me lmfao..when i read all this sheatt......rankings??? who cares ..points...who care,,I do like my jet planes tho.......I like flying with friends and shooting down your friends..lolo ....thats all this is.........i just like wacthing the tracers roll around....simple pleasures...simple fun:)
"I hope more rooks and bishes..write in here,,,makes it lest resistance when im in the MA taken your bases"....lolol....
BGBMAW
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In AW the I think there was a multiplier for landing kills. The more times you RTB with kills in a row the higher the multiplier, prehaps something like this could be implemented to reward people who fly to live.
DES
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Des: aw had a multiplier for landing vs ditching vs bailing simalar to ours, The also had a streak multiplier that maxed at 5 or 7 planes in a row with out dieing.
In fighter scoring we have 2 catagories that are greatly effected by landing kills K/d and points.
Perks also gain a 1.25 multiplier for landing.
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. (http://www.acclaim.com/games/southpark/southpark/images/soundbytes/cartman/CARMP088.au)
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If CHARACTER PROGRESSION is implemented...
Can i be a wizard or a warrior?
I want to cast spells and attack with my flaming sword :)
It would just be totally awesome to shoot fireballs at other planes instead of 20mm cannons.
Muhahahaa
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi All,
I've been thinking recently of what relatively simple changes could be made to the game to improve overall gameplay. One idea in particular stands out in my mind - CHARACTER PROGRESSION.
- Seagoon
Microsoft Combat Flight Sim 3 is coming out with that idea and I really don't like it, particularly in an online massive-multiplayer environment. I see the MA as the place for strategies and skills to be honed as preparation for the historical campaigns. That's where you'll find your "life" has meaning - if you die, you're done. In Air Warrior, I had the most pleasure from the sim doing the historical scenarios (I wasn't addicted, I could quit anytime I wanted to, I just chose not to!.:p ). And I usually chose the side that was the underdog, just for the added challenge. I even commanded an entire air armada trying to defend Rabaul against Allied bombing raids (we lost, but it took'em three frames to finish the job!).
You had a nice idea, but it would work better in an offline sim than in a massive-multiplayer 24hr environment.