Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: loser on April 17, 2002, 11:08:12 PM
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just heard over the wire, 4 Canadian soldiers killed south of kandahar (sp)
friendly fire from 2 500lbs bombs from an American F16.
god this blows :(
4 killed 8 seriously wounded.
God be with all allied soldiers , airmen and their families regardless of nationality.
-seriously choked,
loser111
oh sheet, even better...these guys were from the princess pats out of Alberta. Canucks!!!! light those flags tonight and lower them to half mast!!!
(http://blair111.tripod.ca/ab-flag1.gif)
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That news hits hard :(
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shit! http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0100&id=0204180018231187
:( I like to make fun of canadians, not read about friendly fire, damnit
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:-(
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:( damn, thats sad news indeed.
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:(
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:(
An LGB in a training area. Has to be a major screw-up in there somewhere. Wonder who was holding/pointing the laser? Anyone heard?
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sorry canada :(
U
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Nothing quite like killing your Allies, good grief. I know friendly fire happens but it isnt like this is some sort of operation w/masses of our troops hotly engaged w/thiers in close quarters.
I'm with Toad on this one.... serious screw up.
xBAT
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Story I heard on MSNBC was that they thought they were getting ground fire from that location.
Seems like more casualties from accidents and friendly fire than from the enemy. Canada
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The first thing that went through my mind when my exwife called me and told me that 4 guys from my old unit were killed by a US fighter was...
couldnt he see the green uniforms?
RIP troops.
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:( ...Four Canadian Heroes.
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All things considered the boys over there are doing a bang up job. Sad to see this happen and hopefully knowledge will be gained from it.
Also said a prayer for those pilots they have enough to deal with.
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The way I heard it, is that the Canadians were holding a live ammunition training excercise at night. An F16 overflew it and saw it going on, and reported that he was taking fire. He radiod in and asked permission to attack. Denied, but was given permission to mark the area for a strike at some point in the future. He marked it, and requested permission to strike at it. Denied. He reportedly said that he was taking additional fire and decided to invoke his right of self defence and proceeded to strike at the troops on the ground.
I kinda have a hard time believing that these Canadian troops were firing at the F16... It's not like it could have been mistaken for a jet belonging to the El Quada air force.
Screw up? Or some out of control F16 jocky?
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Originally posted by Nash
The way I heard it,
Out of curiosity, where did you hear it?
-Sikboy
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Uhm..... everywhere?
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The names of the PPCLIs killed by friendly fire (US F16 250lber) have been released...
Sgt. Marc Leger
Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer
Pte. Richard Green
Pte. Nathan Smith
injured...
Sgt. Lorne Ford
Cpl. René Paquet
Master Cpl. Curtis Holister
Cpl. Brett Parry
Pte. Norman Link
Cpl. Shane Brennan
Master Cpl. Stanley Clark
Cpl. Brian DeCare
Salute Pongos.
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Condolences canucks :(
From WW2:
"When the Germans fire the English duck.
When the English fire the Germans duck.
When the Americans fire everybody ducks."
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At least your N1K2 whines will seem pale, finally.
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Originally posted by Nash
Uhm..... everywhere?
DOH! This morning when I first heard the news there no details... I figured you had a "scoop" lol.
-Sikboy
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Nash, let me first again offer my condolences to the families of the victims and all Canadians.
I'd still like to know, however, who was aiming the laser designator.
If it indeed was a laser guided bomb, it generally "takes two to tango". One entity marks the target with a laser designator and the attacking pilot lofts the bomb in to the laser "basket" where gravity and the steerable control fins take over and do the rest.
So I sort of doubt it was one "out of control F-16 jockey". I'm almost certain two different people had to be involved. What that means to me is that both people must have felt it was within their ROE to "take the shot".
Now, if it proves to be some guy taking matters into his own hands and violating the ROE, I'll stand right beside you and yell even louder that he should be "hung from the highest yardarm in the fleet".
If the ROE prove to be unworkable or stupidly written, then the guy/guys who wrote them should swing.
If it was basically an unforseen situation that went sour.. it's an accident.
All of the above not withstanding, it's still a tragedy and I mourn along with your country.
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diddly.
:(
I eagerly await the investigation into this matter.
Edit: Ya know, I tried to let this go, but I just can't. WTF is with the American military and friendly fire anyway. Cripes. It's not like this is the first time this toejam has happened. I understand friendly fire happens, but why does it always seem to be the yanks for diddly sake.
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It's way too early to spend much time on this. Let the folks who have the job, resources and are on the scene do the investigation. Anything posted here is just speculation, mostly from those who have never been in the service much less a combat zone. Folks just let them do their job. The investigators will do their best to find out how this tragedy happened and how to see it doesn't happen again.
Just a side note. The incidence of "friendly fire" is far less than it used to be, even in stateside training during WW2, because the incidents were investigatede and procedures set to avoid them.
Grieve for the losses but don't try to assign blame for it untill the facts are known.
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Yup, I heard the exact same story as Nash told, apart from that the F16 pilot was ANG.
Toad, the F16 often carries a laser designator therefore a single F16 can aquire and guide a LGB towards a target.
Friendly fire just brings back so many bad memories from all the other incidents in the past :(
Salute to the fallen Canadians
Regards
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Originally posted by Thrawn
WTF is with the American military and friendly fire anyway. Cripes.
If I had to guess, I'd say that dropping more bombs than most countries, while at the same time having a free and active press has a lot to do with the appearence of an above average incidence of Friendly Fire Casualties. I'd be interested to know how many times the Russians have accidentally dropped on their own positions in Chechnya for example. This is just a guess of course.
-Sikboy
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Condolences to those lost in this accident.
And to those taking this opportunity to pass judgement on those involved... piss off. You don't know what happened. You don't know the circumstances. You are going off of rumors an assumptions.
AKDejaVu
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Okay this is what we KNOW.
The canadians were in a DESIGNATED AND RECOGNISED training area.
Two F-16's flew over the area on routine patrol.
The pilot, a reservist in the National Guard, contacted his air controller on the ground and reported that he was taking fire from the enemy. The pilot was then given permission to mark a target and to turn around to get a second look.
The pilot circled back over the area and saw more muzzle flashes, the officials said. He asked if he could drop his bomb, but was denied permission unless he felt he was acting in self-defence.
The pilot then invoked his right of self-defence and dropped one laser-guided 250-kg bomb on the target, the Pentagon officials said.
PS. These "rumours and assumptions"(most people prefer to use the proper term "facts", all come to me from the DND and from the Pentagon, via the CBC, the BBC and CNN.
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Crap. Look...thanks sharing your condolances.
I sincerly offer mine to the friends and families, of those killed and wounded in this horrible incident and to the PPCLI.
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Thrawn... you need to calm down and stop taking this so personally. While you're at it.. please stop acting like judge jury and executioner. You're not helping anything at all right now.
And for whomever issued the comment in regards to Americans and FF... With training comes accidents. With deployment comes accidents. With combat comes accidents. Ask yourself how this happens with Americans more than others one more time... only this time... try to actually answer it. I do recall a Danish plane opening fire on an observation tower at a gunnery range... the next day an American plane hit an observation tower at a range with a bomb. The only difference was that one pilot missed and the other didn't. Of course... its an all about Americans always FFing.
AKDejaVu
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This has had me bummed out all day. It's one thing when we have a FF accident that kills Americans, but to kill our allies just seems worse to me.
Sorry again Canada :(
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Thrawn... you need to calm down and stop taking this so personally. While you're at it.. please stop acting like judge jury and executioner. You're not helping anything at all right now.
I'm trying to calm down. Sorry for venting my frustration on all of you.
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cc..
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There is a military facility near where I live and the military conducts exercises there. Seems like once a month someone is getting killed during training. Sometimes it's a Brit sometimes a Canuk. I also see CNN reporting people getting killed during U.S. exercises so we know it's not a conspiracy.
Hope I don't sound to distant when it comes to death but I have seen to much of it and personally don't care much either way anymore. Either your alive or you not. If you are alive enjoy it whilst you can. If you are not alive then it's a non-issue. The only people you gotta spend energy on are the survivors.
Thrawn I am not a mental health doctor (I should probably seek one out for my own issues) but unless you personally know one or more of those killed or wounded then I would not like to be around you when someone you are close to does pass on. I look back on my own ignorance about death and it's place in the scheme of things before anyone close to me died I had no clue where my feelings lay. Now I know. If you have already been there and done that then forgive me for speaking out of turn.
If you have never been there and done that then you will have to wait for it. Kinda like loosing your virginity. No one can describe it to you. It's one of those moments that help shape your thinking and your life.
Just some thoughts.
Sorry for the book.
Cheers!!
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Sorry I started to type and got called away. I should have looked to see what was new. Good job Thrawn staying calm is where it's at!
Cheers!!
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Originally posted by Replicant
Toad, the F16 often carries a laser designator therefore a single F16 can aquire and guide a LGB towards a target.
Things may have changed since I was last "familiar" with LGB delivery but....
I'm still thinking that his wingman or someone else had to lase the target while the attacker maneuvered to toss the LGB into the "basket".
I will check on this. Not making a big deal about it but I would like to have the "facts" straight. I think it still "takes" two.. but I'll check.
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Newer F-16 variants, I beleive carry some type of Pave Knife, Or some sort of Laser designator. I might be confusing it with the flir pod they carry on the side of the jet intake.
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Originally posted by Toad
Things may have changed since I was last "familiar" with LGB delivery but....
I'm still thinking that his wingman or someone else had to lase the target while the attacker maneuvered to toss the LGB into the "basket".
I will check on this. Not making a big deal about it but I would like to have the "facts" straight. I think it still "takes" two.. but I'll check.
Yep, it really depends on what sort of mission it was on. As you mention normally one plane would be equipped with a laser designator and then the remaining aircraft within the flight can carry LGBs and not worry about having to aim at target. However it is unknown whether the second aircraft was carrying a pod or whatever. Anyway, here's some info you might find interesting....
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-16.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/lantirn.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/n19981103_981668.html
Plus some images:-
http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/f-16-00000009.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/f-16-98904f16lgb.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/phl-0284.jpg
Regards
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Some info for those of you who want to read up.
http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/cdn_casualties/
-Aaron
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S!
The site where this occurred was a training area used by both U.S. and Canadian troops, including U.S. Special Forces. It was used on a regular basis, weekly at minimum.
The Canadian troops involved were from a highly experienced unit, which had 3 years previous combat experience from Bosnia and Croatia, (Canadian Peacekeepers there had numerous firefights with Serb Militias) as well as recent combat on the 'Whale Back' ridge mission in Afghanistan during which no casualties were suffered although snipers from the unit scored some of the highest kill numbers of any units involved, and in one instance suppressed an Afghan ambush which had taken U.S. Soldiers under fire. The particular platoon involved were Jump qualified and had extensive night and special forces training. They were trained specifically in night fighting techniques which emphasize holding fire until targets identified. The chances of them firing on an aircraft, (in particular a F-16, which has a very distinctive sound) is ZERO.
Someone f*cked up bigtime.
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S!
By the way:
The Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry are one of the most distinguished units in the Canadian Army.
They were awarded a Presidential Unit Citation in 1952 by President Eisenhower for their actions in Korea.
After a massive Chicom attack broke the U.S. and S Korean line, and caused a huge hole, they held a hilltop and prevented a breakthrough which threatened to cutoff a U.S. Division.
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Yep, looks like the new Lantirn pod can designate for its own aircraft weapons.
So, it could have been just one guy.
Now to the ROE and the command responsibility. Like did anyone brief the flight that the training area was going to be "hot" during their mission with friendlies engaged in training?
One would think that coordination would occur given that training is done in an active warzone.
A miserable thing in any event.
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It's a dangerous business. My condolences. I hope, at the very least, everyone learns from this.
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"It's a dangerous business."
Indeed.
If you consider the number of people that have been hurt, and killed in ordinary hunting accidents it might help put it in perspective. These people were under no stress at all. There was no chance the deer would shoot back, and yet they still screwed up.
In the past I have related a couple of friendly fire incidents that occurred in my old army unit. Unfortunately they were not that uncommon. Usually they were the result of someone ignoring standing orders. Or just making a bone head move. I fear this will turn out to be what happened here. At any rate. Try to remember the threat they are all under. Also, frankly, the fact that these men are pumped up to fight. That is exactly what we ask of them.
At any rate. Condolences to the Canadians, for the loss of fine men.
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Originally posted by Nash
I kinda have a hard time believing that these Canadian troops were firing at the F16... It's not like it could have been mistaken for a jet belonging to the El Quada air force.
Screw up? Or some out of control F16 jocky?
When you shoot a machinegun, a lot of bullets bounce off the ground and go few hundred yards into the air at a steep trajectory with the tracers still burning - clearly visible at night. A plane finding itself in the middle of a bunch of tracers can easily decide it is fired on.
miko
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I asked my co-worker about this (he was a Marine A-4 jock in Nam).
He said that normally a drop into a zone that "may include friendlies" had to be ordered from the ground forward controller. There was no alternative. OTOH this did not apply if the area was held by the enemy.
He then told me of his experience with a FF drop. He napalmed close enough to a Marine unit to make them all look like thay had been to Hawaii. He was in the OC later when he overheard an officer talking about the idiot pilot that nearly got them all killed. The ballsy SOB actually introduced himself to the officer and made his apologies. I guess he knew he would have to take his turn as ground control, and he didn't want any grunts to be holding a grudge.