Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on April 19, 2002, 01:57:43 AM
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I continue to despair at this killshooter crap. One major problem is the effect it has when clearing someone’s 6. I like to approach a bogie in his low 6 to avoid being spotted, then pull up slightly to take the shot. The problem is that any rounds which fly past the bogie are at a trajectory which lands them on the friendly, and destroys *ME*! If flying fighters in the MA, I’ll either be found flying the F4U-1D, or the P51D. Their .50 cals fly well – too well, it turns out. It is possible to land hits at 1000 yards or more, whereas in some sims, any shots fired from outside of 300 yards are dust. Just imagine that I am 400 yards behind a con, who is 400 yards behind my friend. I pull up slightly to aim the pipper and fire. It’s impossible to land all the rounds on the con, and those that miss go straight to the friendly.
Why not just null out friendly fire, in the same way that friendlies cannot collide with you? I cannot understand this concept of being damaged by one’s own fire. It makes no sense at all.
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It works fine.
F.
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Posting when Pissed Off?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Why not just null out friendly fire, in the same way that friendlies cannot collide with you? I cannot understand this concept of being damaged by one’s own fire. It makes no sense at all.
Which is more annoying....hitting a friendly and damaging yourself or having a friendly fire over your shoulder and/or thru you to hit the enemy in front of you?
Personally, I think killshooter does what it is supposed to do just fine.
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This posting shows clearly, how desperatly we need the killshooter.
It protects us form swarms of gangbangers spraying at 1k.
If you want to clear a friendlies six from a bad boogey, give him a CheckSix, instead of shooting at him while he is unaware of his threat.
So you will be not endangered to shoot both, when he is doing evasive turns.
Thank you, beet1e, for this lesson! :D :D
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Agree beet1e, and the case u exposed is the typical one, not the exception. Somethimes you are clearing someone six and the enemy simply explodes, no more solid material between your last bullet and your team mate and BOOM. You get the damage multiplied by something much greater than 1.
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,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and so the story continues,,,,we just had this discussion
kill/shooter or not.In RL you wouldn`t take a shot risking hitting your own ,,,wouldt you?,,,but then again ,it`s just a game;) .
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no killshooter, i want friendly fire and friendly collisions in air and on ground, spawn only from hangers
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I've only died to killshooter a couple times when I've strafed groundvehicles..
It's happened that I fire an extremely long distance burst on gv to avoid getting wasted from its guns.. However while the bullet stream still flies a teammate decides to dive and strafe the enemy, flying directly in the stream and catching a ping or two.
This results in exaggerated damage to me and the tailsection flies away.. Not fun.
Killshooter has mainly happened to me when I've been 'snipering' that is taking extremely long deflection shots. Sometimes I see a shot and *YES* it lands straight on the target - except a friendly plane that was on its tail turned hard straight into the stream.. and BOOM..
I say keep killshooter but at least make the effect 1:1 to the damage the bullets give normally. That way it's possible to survive your own snapshots just like the enemy does.
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I been killshot 1 maybe 2 times in my whole AH life,I think it`s
a question about SA,,,and short controlled burst,,not long uncon-
trolled burst`s;).
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Dawwgrid I shoot half second controlled bursts, see where they land, adjust and shoot again..
One short burst like that is enough to kill you if a friendly flies into the stream. It won't however kill the enemy even if it lands.
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you are excused MrSid ,it`s those spray&pray guys im referring
to;)
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This sounds more like a solution looking for a problem.
There is no problem. You hit what you aim at. You get punished if you mess up.
The flip side would be far, far worse. Rejects from the idiot factory would ruin the game.
Hans.
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Let's not forget another reason I'm pretty sure killshooter is with us to stay... AirQuake- "Gee, I'm bored, got a few minutes to kill, feelin' mischievous, only on a free 2 week trial period anywayz, can't figure these damn planes out too well, think I'll take off and shoot anything that moves, hey that guy with the green icon that just took off, he'll never see it coming, wham-blam lookee at the pretty fireball, mwuhahahahahah, ooooooooh I'm sooooo baaaaad...." etc., etc., etc.
hmmmmm.. yup..... killshooter should stay.
:) LtHans took the words right outta my mouth, and posted 'em while I was typin.
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Killshooter MUST stay that's clear..
But I vote for reducing the damage value to normal or even less than normal damage..
That way accidental misplaced shots won't ruin a sortie.
Afterall.. This IS a game.
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Amen to all the smart people who have already posted on this. I've been playing AH for 8 months and I just killshootered myself for the first time the other night. Am I that good a pilot? Hell no. It's just that I send check 6 calls and check my fire when friendlies are in the area; while I like furballing on occasion, I generally avoid super-furballs (we need a new name for these. . .ideas?) and behavior like snipering. Part of realism for me is in the way you yourself behave, rather than expecting the game to provide all the realism for you.
Keep killshooter. Increase the damage! I also think we need a vox-linked killshooter. People who whine about being HOed (takes two to tango) automatically explode on their next attempt to spawn.
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The other day, i'm in a P-38, chasing tsorde in a P-38 loaded with rockets, so i'm gaining on him slowly, and at about d800 i fire of a burst just on the 50s for the hell of it, i hit him and he's smoking...but i hate firing bs 10 second bursts on guns that would burn out after 3, so i just hang there on his tail, gaining slowly
..........meanwhile, unbeknownst to me, some guy called "suave" has seen tsorde attack our base, hopped in a Yak, and come screaming up full power climbing below me, completely out of my field of view. O.K. so my SA was down, but i knew there were no other enemies in the area. I'm just about to take another leisurely burst on the 50s when this guy suave literally pops up right in front of me, straight in my line of fire.
Now, luckily i managed to avoid killshootering myself, but i was damned if i was gonna let this prat get the kill, so i arc a ton of 50s over him, and tsorde's P38 goes down.
An argument against killshooter? No, cos next thing i know this guy "suave" is swearing at me over the country channel cos i got the kill.
About once a week i meet a 'friendly' whose guns i know would be turned on me if it wasn't for killshooter, i think it's the best solution to the problem by far.
btw i have this on film so i've no qualms about naming the guy.
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aGirl brings up another good point. I'm generally in favor of the way HTC has approached the issue of mechanical reliability, which is to ignore it altogether. While it might add some spice to have a realistic chance of engines, landing gear failing, etc. (and it would mean the Tempest wouldn't be perked so highly, if the unreliability of its engine was modelled accurately) current thinking in online and stand alone sims seems to regard this as an unfair penalty on players.
That said, I would like to see guns that overheat and fail. It would put an end to the "streaming wall of lead folks", and would also modify the buff game if you had to fire in shorter bursts. And on the flipside, I can't see that it would seriously impact the many pilots who already do fire in controlled bursts. (I'd also like to see bullet drop and dispersion more accurately modelled, but that's a whole other whine. . .er, thread!)
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Big words from a guy who has played for 8 months and has a 4% hit ratio in fighters..
I say first learn to aim with AH 'inaccurate modeling' then ask for more :)
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Punt;)
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I've died to killshooter maybe 10 times in 2 1/2 years and 6,154 sorties, I can recall maybe 3-4 instances of killshootering myself because the friendly "just appeared" in front of me all of a sudden. The other couple of times I was well aware of the risk.
Killshooter is fine. Just learn to put your ammo where it's supposed to go. :)
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Killshooter must stay.
Since day one of AH I may have killed myself because of killshooter once, not even shure of that one.
This is a non problem in my eyes.
The Wild Viking
(http://www.lasse.as/twv.gif)
Commanding Officer
Lasse
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I have to say that killshooter can be annoying but it's a good thing. It doesn't ruin my life very often and it keeps people responsible for their shots. Imagine what would happen when an enemy con is being chased by a train of 5 friendly fiters all firing away in order to get the kill. A whole new era of kill stealing would begin.
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LOL remove killshooter and we see whines all day from people beeing shot down by countrymates hehe.
Or whatif a tosser just changes country to piss somone off :D
airguard
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Originally posted by Preon1
Imagine what would happen when an enemy con is being chased by a train of 5 friendly fiters all firing away in order to get the kill. A whole new era of kill stealing would begin.
Bingo.
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Originally posted by Preon1
I have to say that killshooter can be annoying but it's a good thing. It doesn't ruin my life very often and it keeps people responsible for their shots. Imagine what would happen when an enemy con is being chased by a train of 5 friendly fiters all firing away in order to get the kill. A whole new era of kill stealing would begin.
you just be sure to fly tail-end Charlie;)
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Killshooter is just fine as it is.
My best killshooter death was dropping a bomb on a GV only to discover he was friendly, then waiting for death as the bomb fell from 20K. :)
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,,,you shouldt had screamed "GET OUTTA THE WAY" to him:D ,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,soon weekend;)
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Although I can understand being upset having a death attributed to killshooter it needs to stay the way it is.
As already stated with none at all there will be no reason to hold back and could bring kill stealing arguments to a new level.
If rounds do damage to the friendly I can imagine the problems that will bring. Have a problem with an enemy? Want some revenge? Switch sides, highlight him as a wingman, go find him and kill him every time they get engaged.
Actually, that last part has some merit. HTC turn killshooter off! :D
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I can't believe that no one's pointed this out before.
-Sikboy
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Where's Yeager?
Daniel
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killshooter is fine as far as guns are concerned...
But I think when a buff drops an egg from 20k and some idjit flies thru the target at 10ft killing the buff thats a load o crap! a different implementation for bombs would be nice..
SKurj
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All of these predictions about what might or might not occur and how killshooter might or might not change the behavior of people flying in the MA is a load of crap.
Rather than speculate. Turn it off for a tour. See what happens.
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Sandman,
Which do you think will be more prevalent: your buff death scenario, or getting blasted by the conga line?
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Ok...ok hehe
RELAX........its just a game.
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A lot of you seem to think that I'm advocating a scenario in which it's possible to shoot friendlies instead of being damaged yourself. I was not! All I suggested was that it's silly for the damage to be ascribed to your own plane. Let a S&P burke waste his ammo if he wants to.
Admittedly, if five were chasing one, it would be a spray & pray fray. But the planes I fly are typically B&Z fighters that don't like turning very much, preferring to use vertical manoeuvres. So if chasing down a con at 400mph, it's no use suggesting that the friendly should turn so as to create the opportunity for a deflection shot whilst avoiding shooting the friendly. Turning in planes like the F4U and P51 is not much of a combat option, especially at 400mph. If you know different, please advise!
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Originally posted by popeye
Sandman,
Which do you think will be more prevalent: your buff death scenario, or getting blasted by the conga line?
Not enough info to form an opinion. Right now, all the evidence is anecdotal at best and/or pure speculation at worst.
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Originally posted by beet1e
... The problem is that any rounds which fly past the bogie are at a trajectory which lands them on the friendly, and destroys *ME*! ...
Not had one killshooter death in Warbirds or AcesHigh either. I have been damaged in events when it is off though.
Killshooter works fine.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I continue to despair at this killshooter crap. One major problem is the effect it has when clearing someone’s 6. I like to approach a bogie in his low 6 to avoid being spotted, then pull up slightly to take the shot. The problem is that any rounds which fly past the bogie are at a trajectory which lands them on the friendly, and destroys *ME*! If flying fighters in the MA, I’ll either be found flying the F4U-1D, or the P51D. Their .50 cals fly well – too well, it turns out. It is possible to land hits at 1000 yards or more, whereas in some sims, any shots fired from outside of 300 yards are dust. Just imagine that I am 400 yards behind a con, who is 400 yards behind my friend. I pull up slightly to aim the pipper and fire. It’s impossible to land all the rounds on the con, and those that miss go straight to the friendly.
Why not just null out friendly fire, in the same way that friendlies cannot collide with you? I cannot understand this concept of being damaged by one’s own fire. It makes no sense at all.
So, if this were RL, you would clear your buddy's six in this manner? What a hoot that would be if you accidentally shot him down instead of the bandit. If your hitting a friendly in a situation as you described, it is 100% your fault.
When ever you fire a weapon, you have to know what is downrange, including what is downrange all around your intended target, in case you miss, which by your post, seems to be the case.
I don't like kill shooter for the other reasons of friendlies flying through my plane while I have the trigger pulled, but that is a much rarer occurance that is a furballing problem for the most part.
If any change could be made to KS I would just ask for significantly reduced lethality, especially considering that all KS damaged is applied to the center fuesalage.
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The damage recieved is the same as inflicted. We have MA duels all the time, first to die wins (in other words lots of experience with killshooter damage). Just like when shooting a con, I can spray 303s or 7.7 with minimal if any damage, but I hit with cannons and parts go away.
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Midnight - au contraire, mon ami.
And this is where WB and IL2 guys will agree with me. Many in WB refer to AH projectile trajectories as "laser gunnery", and I can see where they're coming from. In AH, I once got a kill of a 109 from my F6F at a range of 1000 yards at an upward angle of about 30°. I'm no expert myself, but I think the other guys argue that beyond about 500 yards, the projectiles' energy would be pretty much spent, just as a shotgun is lethal at 10 feet but probably harmless at 500 yards. I can't give exact figures, and I have never owned a gun of any kind. What you're saying is that the lethality of the projectile continues until it hits the ground. In which case you could get a killshooter death at 15,000 feet because your ammo burst hit a friendly 25 miles away. How would you like that?
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I remember trying to clear a Tiffie's 6. I was in my Mossie and there was a P-38 diving on this Tiffie, so I dive after the P-38. At 300 yards I calculate the lead (I thought) and fire off a burst. I watch the burst fly over the P-38 and drill the Tiffie that is 800 yards ahead of me. I seriously doubt that I could have made that shot if I'd tried. Anyways, you ever seen a Mossie get hit by 4 20mm Hispano Mk IIs? Pop goes the Mossie.:D
The reason that I think killshooter should remain is that it creates a more realistic environment. Not realistic in who takes the damage (I am well aware that those who advocate removing killshooter just want no damage to friendlies) but rather realistic in the behavior that it encourages. In reality you didn't have 5 F6Fs all blazing away through eachother, all trying to get that A6M. In reality you tried not to shoot friendlies because you could kill your friends. In a game the only way to make one think about the potential for harm is to apply the damage to the shooter.
It creates a more realistic combat environment when the players check their fire to avoid shooting friendlies. Anything else massively changes the dynamics of air-to-air combat.
BTW, I do agree that bombers should not suffer killshooter deaths from their bombs.
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I usually hold the trigger down until the gun is empty, the whole time screaming at the top of my lungs "TAKE THAT YOU RAT BASTARD!!!!! ( not to be confused with the Fat Drunk Bastards, who i'm sure some are rats.)
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Dawvgrid
I been killshot 1 maybe 2 times in my whole AH life,I think it`s
a question about SA,,,and short controlled burst,,not long uncon-
trolled burst`s;).
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What you're saying is that the lethality of the projectile continues until it hits the ground. In which case you could get a killshooter death at 15,000 feet because your ammo burst hit a friendly 25 miles away. How would you like that?
You will find that as your examples approach reality, so does credit approach your point.
What he said is be aware of what your guns can do, and take that into account.
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especially considering that all KS damaged is applied to the center fuesalage.
This isn't true either Midnight.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Ok...ok hehe
RELAX........its just a game.
I was beginning to worry! :eek: :D
Now everything's back to normal.
Daniel
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Originally posted by beet1e
Midnight - au contraire, mon ami.
And this is where WB and IL2 guys will agree with me. Many in WB refer to AH projectile trajectories as "laser gunnery", and I can see where they're coming from. In AH, I once got a kill of a 109 from my F6F at a range of 1000 yards at an upward angle of about 30°. I'm no expert myself, but I think the other guys argue that beyond about 500 yards, the projectiles' energy would be pretty much spent, just as a shotgun is lethal at 10 feet but probably harmless at 500 yards.
The other guys are probably wrong, especially if they're applying a 500-yard limit to heavier projectiles than 7.92 mm. In the .50 cal destroying tanks thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48482&pagenumber=3) HT posted a chart of armor penetration versus range for the Browning M2. As you see, the Browning M2 will penetrate around 18mm of armor plate struck perpendicular at 500 yards. Hardly "pretty much spent."
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pbirmingham - you're probably right, but then to use my earlier scenario, if you fired at something at 15,000 feet, and there was a furball going on near the surface some miles away, does this mean you might suffer a KS death if your ammo found a friendly target? An unlucky shot, perhaps, but suppose your own CV was out there. Bah, getting a bit hypothetical... OK, it doesn't matter. Funny how I never suffered a KS death in WB, but have had four or five in AH in as many months, at least two of which were caused by opportunists diving in to steal my kill. Add a bit of lag into the equation and Boom! Happened just yesterday, and I discoed right afterwards.
As to midnight's somewhat smart alec remark When ever you fire a weapon, you have to know what is downrange, including what is downrange all around your intended target, in case you miss, which by your post, seems to be the case.
I see that his gunnery percentage is around 11.83%. Better than mine at just over 7%, but still means that most of his shots (88.17%) miss. I seem to remember something about a topic called "Dispersion". So if aiming at a con's dead 6, it seems inevitable that a proportion of shots will miss, wherever you aim.
I'm off now until Thursday - see you when I get back.
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Gawd ya gotta love people that take the time to check your stats before they post.Ahhhh young Luke.I see your noodle is 3 inches SHORTER than mine.Your opinion is irrelevant.
Keep the kill shooter.In Air Warrior there was a safty net that took all your ammo for 24 hours if you killed 2 friendlies in 24 hours.That was an attempt at normal,but you had dipshits sitting on runways killing friendlies in a 26 for hours till they ran out.Or fragged a base while it was being taken.I think the responsibility should rest entirely on the pilots finger.You hit a friendly you pay.Damage could be better tho cause I have yet to survive a friendly hit.
Could one of you people with no life check my KD ratio and get back to me?Also I would like a hit % update.Thanks.Go hide a cv.
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The day we get rid of idiots, we can rid killshooter.