Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Curval on April 19, 2002, 10:11:39 AM
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Been thinking about this alot, and over a conversation with a client I think we have it figured out.
The only reason that the United States and the west cares one iota about the Middle East is oil. This is the bottom line and anyone who disagrees with that statement needs their head examined.
If we are in agreement on this point..lets talk MONEY.
How much will it cost the US over the next 20 years to:
1. Fight terrorism
2. Keep Israel and the Arab nations from killing each other
3. Protect the US oil interests in the Middle East
Pick a number. Mine would be about 5-10 TRILLION dollars - conservatively.
The answer to the Middle East problem then is simple in its conception, but obviously very difficult, for a number of reasons, to put into practice.
Take the 5-10 trillion and begin a massive campaign to find and impliment an alternative to oil burning engines. Give the oil companies, the car dealers and manufacturers, the after-market parts salespeople etc, etc. MASSIVE incentives to effect this transformation.
Yes it is a huge undertaking, and yes it will fundemaentally alter all of our lives. But think about the net result. The US would no longer need oil. They could leave the desert to the Arabs and the Israelis to fight over. There would no longer be a need to send massive amounts of aid to Israel and normalised trade relations could be substituted.
I don't have time to get too long winded here...so, there it is in a nutshell.....
Discuss.
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I think we should be doing that reguardless of what's happening in the ME. Simply put there's a finite amount of oil on this planet. The only real problem I see is that fuel is not the only use of oil. So many products we use are petrolium based. Anything from the shoes on your feet to the pen you write with to the keyboard you type with, to the plastic that wraps your lunch uses oil.
It's just not as cut and dry as I'd like it, it's a big tangled mess....
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Originally posted by Udie
I think we should be doing that reguardless of what's happening in the ME. Simply put there's a finite amount of oil on this planet. The only real problem I see is that fuel is not the only use of oil. So many products we use are petrolium based. Anything from the shoes on your feet to the pen you write with to the keyboard you type with, to the plastic that wraps your lunch uses oil.
It's just not as cut and dry as I'd like it, it's a big tangled mess....
Good point Udie...but I would have thought that any viable alternative to oil would address these issues too.
Nothing is cut and dry in the ME now...it is a huge tangled mess, as you say, with no way to solve it at present. At least if we follow some sort of program to change the reliance on oil (needed in any case as you point out) there is a "light at the end of the tunnel".
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First we should reduce our dependence on ME oil
If the democrats could get that through their thick skulls, it'd be a start ... da morons
Senate Rejects Oil Drilling in Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50649,00.html)
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Originally posted by Curval
Good point Udie...but I would have thought that any viable alternative to oil would address these issues too.
Nothing is cut and dry in the ME now...it is a huge tangled mess, as you say, with no way to solve it at present. At least if we follow some sort of program to change the reliance on oil (needed in any case as you point out) there is a "light at the end of the tunnel".
Yeah I agree. I think that an alternate "fuel" sorce will probobly be in the form of hydrogen or nuclear power if they can get it clean enough. I don't know how we will totaly get off of oil for a very long time. It would be interesting to know the ratio of fuel/polymer crude oil usage, I have no clue what that is. I would think though that which ever is the greatest use is what we should be looking for and alternative of. That would decrease our dependency the most, IMO. :)
[edit]
Another problem may be, and this is certainly no reason to no look for alternative sources of fuel, that if we were to stop buying saudi oil the sultans may lose power. Then we'd have some sort of ultra-right-wing-religious-zealot government out to kill the great satan. Personaly I think it's coming to this anyway but stopping the flow of money to SA might hasten it. I still say do it though, screw the freakin 7th centry crazies....
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Drilling for more oil here is not the way to reduce our dependence on oil!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Drilling for more oil here is not the way to reduce our dependence on oil!
You are correct sir! :D But it is a good strategic tactic to reduce our dependency of getting our lifeblood (oil) from an enemy ( the gov don't hate us but the population does so that makes them enemy in my book)
I think we need to drill in Texas and Alaska to make sure we have enough to not be held over a "barrel" hehe pun. I think we need to buy from Russia too, though not get too dependent on them either.
Mostly I think I agree with you Tahgut, we need another form besides oil. The tech is there now and this could lead to another 10 year booming economy when everybody rushes to be part of the new thing. But I'm a burn out doper, what do I know? :D
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Actualy I "heard" or read somewhere that most of the oil we pump out ourselfs is SOLD overseas...
xBAT
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The Oil Barons have more power than the President of The United States. I am all for a plan to reduce dependency, but my first sentence is too true!
Mankind will never be satisfied until one person is left. I'm glad that stupid ploy to rip off americans for ruining a refuge failed. This government needs to begin to grab the Oil Barons and the Auto companies by the short and curly's and do something. But they won't.
Jay
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So once the oil problem is solved,the US should just turn away,and let all the maniacs run loose?
Once their oil money is taken away from them the arabs will be furious.Who`s gonna deal with them if not the "most powerful nation on earth" ?The UN? The UN is the biggest joke,there ever was.
The US makes big bucks on the rest of the world (just think of the money the US makes on every can of Coke,every pair of Nike etc.)
IMO a stable world is essencial to the US economy,and it`s not really a question of wether You`re sick of hearing bad news on CNN or not.
Israel will stay where it`s at now.Palestinians will get the west bank,and after they stop shooting in the air on their streets in their victory parades,they`ll reallize the only thing they know and want to do is to kill jews.They`ll blow up some more jewish childeren,and the IDF will reenter Judea and Samaria for the last time,and this time it will stay,and the pals will leave.
End of story.
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Masherbrum: Oil Barons have more power than the President of The United States
40% of US citizens care to vote for the US president once every four years and the 50% of popular vote the current pres had make his mandate a %20 or so.
On the other hand every US citisen votes every year with hunderds of dollars for the "Oil Barons". If you assume that an average voting citizen values his vote at $500 (how much money he would accept not to vote) and how many such $500 votes he/she casts every year for "Oil Barons" mandate, their power comes as no surprise - it is democratically elected.
This government needs to begin to grab the Oil Barons and the Auto companies by the short and curly's and do something. But they won't.
It was not in their election program. If they started doing that all of a sudden, that would be betraying the confidence of their voters. If you need a government that would do something, you have to elect the government with the appropriate program.
Curval - I have even better plan for solving the ME crisis for less money or even turning a profit on it.
Just allocate a few billion dollars and open immigration to US to all israelis and all palestinians willing to escape war.
Since they are all more productive then average american, it would be a huge boolst to US economy and we would recoup our initial investment in taxes in a couple of years. The fundamentalists of both sides who still want to fight for the posession of palestine for religious reasons may then kill each other as they please.
Of course escaping oil-depencency (as well as dependency on any non-renewable factor) is a goal always worth purcuing.
miko
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This is all very well and good with lots of sensible thinking and what not.......
But......
In another thread that began with some chest beating and man-grunting we could all be discussing how awesome a V8, 600 cubic inch, twin turbo charged engine is........:D
Could ya give that up? ;)
Ask Rip if he'd like to swap his BMW 330 for a solar powered milk float.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Originally posted by Swoop
This is all very well and good with lots of sensible thinking and what not.......
But......
In another thread that began with some chest beating and man-grunting we could all be discussing how awesome a V8, 600 cubic inch, twin turbo charged engine is........:D
Could ya give that up? ;)
Ask Rip if he'd like to swap his BMW 330 for a solar powered milk float.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
Man what is it with you?!:mad: Why must you interject facts into this discussion? Everything was going along just fine and dandy! How am I supposed to mix my conjecture with your facts? :D
MEEEEP! :D
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Originally posted by Udie
Anything from the shoes on your feet to the pen you write with to the keyboard you type with, to the plastic that wraps your lunch uses oil.
Check the lables sometime, :) much of the monomer's that are used in plastics mostly come from veggie sources. I believe the first plastics (sometime before wwll) used soybean monomers.
It's just not as cut and dry as I'd like it, it's a big tangled mess.... [/B]
True, so very true.
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Originally posted by Swoop
This is all very well and good with lots of sensible thinking and what not.......
But......
In another thread that began with some chest beating and man-grunting we could all be discussing how awesome a V8, 600 cubic inch, twin turbo charged engine is........:D
Could ya give that up? ;)
Ask Rip if he'd like to swap his BMW 330 for a solar powered milk float.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
hehe...this is part of the fundemental change that will alter all of our lives that I mentioned in the original post. You are absolutely right Swoop....I have seen many threads which have discussed V-8's with their "torked out bendlerouters" etc in the O'Club....
There will undoubtedly be incredible resistance to the use of alternatives to oil in the US..for this reason.
But, I would ask Rip this...
"If he somehow knew that terrorists would end up killing his children ten years from now, which would he rather give up..the car, or his kids?"
I don't know him nearly as well as you do...but based on what I know of him so far I can say with absolute certainty that he would give up the Beemer.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
So once the oil problem is solved,the US should just turn away,and let all the maniacs run loose?
Once their oil money is taken away from them the arabs will be furious.Who`s gonna deal with them if not the "most powerful nation on earth"
Yup...let 'em all run riot over the sand.
So what if they are furious?
We would have no reason to have to deal with them....in a few years they will have NO cash and they can damn well think about working for a living rather than having their bank accounts topped up with every barrell of oil we buy from them.
Am I supposed to feel bad that they would no longer hold the world at ransom over a resource that happens to benefit them due to the geological "fluke" that occurred millions of years ago and that they just happen to live above?
Get real.
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Dude!
"If he somehow knew that terrorists would end up killing his children ten years from now, which would he rather give up..the car, or his kids?"
Cant argue with that. :D
But I dont have any kids so I'll keep the bike, ta. :cool:
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Originally posted by Swoop
Dude!
"If he somehow knew that terrorists would end up killing his children ten years from now, which would he rather give up..the car, or his kids?"
Cant argue with that. :D
But I dont have any kids so I'll keep the bike, ta. :cool:
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
I drive a Scooter to work...I get about 100 miles to the litre :cool:
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Hmmm.
I get 45 miles per gallon, but I get it very fast.
And dont talk to me in litres, use a real measurement :D
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Vegetables?? We are killing vegetables so Ripsnort and the other Republicans can drive their gas guzzlers?? I don't know what conservatives have against veggies.
Can you imagine the pain a potato must feel as his skin is slowly peeled away? Or the last thoughts of a prune as it is dropped into a blender, simply to make some right winger "regular?"
On CNN last night they showed footage of a Palestinian throwing an apple at an Israeli tank. An apple! Who asked that apple if he wanted to get involved in combat against an Israeli tank? Why are the Palestinians drafting fruits and vegetables to do their fighting for them?
One of these days the plant kingdom will strike back at the animal kingdom for years of torture and genocide. Personally I hope it's soon.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Vegetables?? We are killing vegetables so Ripsnort and the other Republicans can drive their gas guzzlers?? I don't know what conservatives have against veggies.
Can you imagine the pain a potato must feel as his skin is slowly peeled away? Or the last thoughts of a prune as it is dropped into a blender, simply to make some right winger "regular?"
On CNN last night they showed footage of a Palestinian throwing an apple at an Israeli tank. An apple! Who asked that apple if he wanted to get involved in combat against an Israeli tank? Why are the Palestinians drafting fruits and vegetables to do their fighting for them?
One of these days the plant kingdom will strike back at the animal kingdom for years of torture and genocide. Personally I hope it's soon.
methinks someone has started the weekend binge a bit early:confused:
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Originally posted by Curval
methinks someone has started the weekend binge a bit early:confused:
Good idea!
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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In the interest of national security and economic superiority, I believe it is the United States intention to be the last country on the planet with significant oil reserves. We presently only operate a fraction of our oil production facilities. I would guess we only produce as much as we do to help control price fluctuations, support potential wartime needs, and maintain the infrastructure that will be needed if we do eventually become the sole producer of oil.
Is it not smarter to use Russian, Middle Eastern, and South American oil while hoarding our own?
The global nature of the economy and the large, influential Jewish population in this country ensures we would still be involved in the Middle East even if we didn't want one drop of their oil.
I am tired of hoping for negotiations to produce meaningful results that lead to stability and peace for everyone. History shows this is extremely unlikely if not entirely impossible (if the events leading up to WWII don't teach you that, I don't know what will). It is time the US picks a side and follows through until the opposing side is in no position to hurt us or our allies any more. My support is with Israel.
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Originally posted by streakeagle
My support is with Israel.
You picked the right side IMO
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Just because two sides are in conflict, it does not mean that one is right and the other is wrong. The Pals do some pretty horrid stuff, but the Israelis aren't exactly pure as the driven snow.
I'm reading The Sum Of All Fears (Clancy) right now and there's an intriguing peace plan in there. Too bad there are people on both sides who don't want to see peace. (The book brings up another interseting theoretical: what if the Palestinians protested in the manner of MLK and Ghandi? How would you see them then?)
As far as an alternate source of energy is concerned, I would love to see it regardless. But that brins up another problem; it would be used as another excuse for extremists in oil producing countries to hate us.
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I found this one to be one of if not his best
enjoy
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Originally posted by majic
Just because two sides are in conflict, it does not mean that one is right and the other is wrong. The Pals do some pretty horrid stuff, but the Israelis aren't exactly pure as the driven snow.
I'm reading The Sum Of All Fears (Clancy) right now and there's an intriguing peace plan in there. Too bad there are people on both sides who don't want to see peace. (The book brings up another interseting theoretical: what if the Palestinians protested in the manner of MLK and Ghandi? How would you see them then?)
As far as an alternate source of energy is concerned, I would love to see it regardless. But that brins up another problem; it would be used as another excuse for extremists in oil producing countries to hate us.
What ifs are fine, but the Palestinians are blowing themselves up and taking innocents with them....hardly a Ghandi like strategy. If they were more like Ghandi tactics I would probably have more sympathy....but they aren't.
I cannot stress this enough...WHO CARES if the Arabs hate us for finding another source of energy to stop the gravy train that the oil producing nations have been riding since the invention of the combustion engine. They hate us now....frankly hating us for taking their money away makes more sense than hating us because we are "infedels".
The extremists to which you refer would have a hard time reproducing anything like the 9/11 attacks if their source of funds was taken away.
Raising 88 million in one night in that telethon in Saudi Arabia wouldn't happen again, that is for damn sure.
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I cannot stress this enough...WHO CARES if the Arabs hate us for finding another source of energy to stop the gravy train that the oil producing nations have been riding since the invention of the combustion engine. They hate us now....frankly hating us for taking their money away makes more sense than hating us because we are "infedels".
Crush `em
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Yes - "crush THEM".
Just wait some hours - then a man who had the same stupid argumentation would celebrate his birthday if he hadnt committed suicide 1945 in Berlin.
I am sure that he would be proud to read what you have written, Caligula, because it shows that his ideas of crushing others is still living on...
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There`s a fundamental difference babek.
Hitler went out and tried to crush people,who would have otherwise do nothing to the germans.
I am a Jew.Arabs don`t like me,they want me dead.They want to destroy my people and they want to destroy Israel.
If they were not hostile tords me,I wouldn`t have any problem with them.But they are,so I want them dead.
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We now return to the theme of the thread............
I like it....
Give the big oil companies a triilion dollars of tax free income....translated to say ten years of their normal "net income" and another trillion to develop alternatives.
Lots left over for the other relevant industries.
Upside for the environment and world peace!
Only problem is....
The Mid-East would likely "explode" without the spending of the trillion that is given to the oil companies.
If we don't fight terrorism now, for example, then it wins for at least the time it takes for the terrorists to go broke.
Better double that estimated 5-10 trillion dollars we need to spend!
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I say we find an alternative energy source and then...
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...and some still wonder why people don`t like americans
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Hitler went out and tried to crush people,who would have otherwise do nothing to the germans.
I am a Jew.Arabs don`t like me,they want me dead.They want to destroy my people and they want to destroy Israel.
I think the majority of Palestinians just want a country of their own.
Just like Israelis wanted a country of their own, saw someone else's, and took it. They didn't take it peacefully, they had to use terrorism and kill a lot of Arabs who were in the way, and expel a few million.
Now the Palestinians want the West Bank, but Israel wants the West Bank as well, so they are fighting over it.
The Palestinians use suicide bombs to kill the Israelis, the Israelis use tanks, artillery, snipers and aircraft to kill the Palestinians.
In the last couple of years of war, the Israelis have managed to kill about 2- 3 times as many Palestinians as the Palestinians have managed to kill Israelis.
It's sad that Caligula can't even see the contradiction in his position. The Arabs want to kill him so he wants to kill the Arabs.
He wants to kill the Arabs so the Arabs want to kill him.
And why do they want to kill each other?
The Palestinians want the West Bank, and are prepared to kill for it.
The Israelis want the West Bank and are prepared to kill for it.
Caligula, who has come up with phrases like "crush them", "I want them dead", "get rid of the Palestinians" tries to claim the moral high ground.
Funny old world, isn't it?