Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Minotaur on March 25, 2000, 10:03:00 PM
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The results are in for the latest AH beauty contest. I guess the ugliest wins! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The Winner:
2.00 --> F4U-1C - 10517 / 5254
1st Runner Up:
1.19 --> 109G-6 - 1215 / 1018
2nd Runner Ups:
1.16 --> 109G-10 - 3473 / 3006
1.16 --> 190A-8 - 2145 / 1845
3rd Runner Up:
1.08 --> P-51D - 5618 / 5250
Noteworthy:
1.04 --> Spit IX - 11105 / 10697
1.01 --> N1K2 - 4639 / 4588
1.01 --> C.205 - 2582 / 2568
Just So-So:
.96 ---> P-38L - 6811 / 7098
.94 ---> 109G-2 - 573 / 608
Should stay home:
.85 ---> Spit V - 6583 / 7754
.84 ---> LA5 - 878 / 1043
Cross dressers with hairy legs:
.69 ---> 109F-4 - 359 / 523
.63 ---> F4U-1D - 438 / 698
Very nice looking just over weight:
.66 ---> B26 - 2028 / 3076
.53 ---> B-17G - 1105 / 2084
The winner by losing:
.11 ---> C-47 - 216 / 1824
In attendence:
1.00 --> All - 60838 / 60838
For the F4U-1C vulchers:
Kill/Die Ratio --> Plane - (Number of kills) / (Number of deaths)
If you want to beat a dead horse some more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002335.html) look here.
For fighters, notice that the F4U-1C has the best K/D and the F4U-1D has the worst.
- F4U-1C --> 2.00 - WTG Stud!
- F4U-1D ---> .63 - Pathetic Twit!
Gitty Up! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-26-2000).]
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F4U-1C: the four fingers of God.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Note also the high position of the fw190A-8. This pig is one of the best killers of the arena...so I only can imagine the whining when Fw190A-5 comes here!!!
Fw190A-5 JG-2 gruppen will rock!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also I simply cant understand how 109G-6 has better scorerates that G-10. IMHO G-6 turns as G-10 but runs as a F-4...
can anyone explain it to me?
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-25-2000).]
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All 190's are Pony Food (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/13thTAS.jpg)
Rude Out!
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[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 03-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 03-25-2000).]
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Well, all the wailing and whining and gnashing of teeth and garment rending over the F4U-1C guns touched a tender spot deep in my heart. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
So, lately I've been flying the D Hog just to see the difference for myself. I really don't have a large enough sample to be _statistically_ valid but the early trend shows the K/D going up nicely. So, look for me in the Hog with the yellow cowling. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It'll sure be interesting to see how YOU guys handle the "Wah! Wah! Wah! FW guns are TOO STRONG Wah! Wah! Wah!" comments.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Toad of the
(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/13thtas.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-26-2000).]
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And the winner will be in the near future:
My prediction - the Typhoon
Move over Corsair, there's another "ugly" bird that will soon be vying for the spot of Tog Dog. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
MiG
note: I personally don't find the Corsair ugly =)
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 03-26-2000).]
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"-touched a tender spot deep in my heart."
Something profoundly wrong with that sentence.
danish
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That the G6 makes its mark calls for some guessing.
One could imagine dedicated LW rotten or schwarms doing it SL style: survival foremost, killing secondary.Any dedicated G6 experten out there?
For sure the plane has no advantages when getting low and dirty in a multi bogie enviroment.Same goes for the A8 allthough it has guns to kill and speed to escape - if you havnt blown it.
Still baffels me though.
danish
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The resident G6 expert is Aper. He has 538 Kills in the G6 against only 136 losses. Everyone else combines for 696 kills vs 891 losses. These statistics are more than slightly skewed.
I've flown quite a bit with aper... enough to know that he'll go in and mix it up with any number of aircraft. His kills are based on hardcore combat not hit and run tactics.
AKDejaVu
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Ok its a one man show then.That I can understand - sort of.
WTG Aper ;=)
danish
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I thought some of you might find this interesting.
Total 109 Kills ---> 5620
Total 109 Deaths --> 5155
109 K/D Ratio -----> 1.09
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Historically speaking, you've got to give credit to the 109 and the Luftwaffe pilots who flew them.
"quote from a recent article, One Oh Nine "
"To that list must inevitably be added the Messerschmitt Me-109. Perhaps it was not the best performer of the war, and even its pilots would admit that it was not the safest or most comfortable plane to fly. But its combat record, from beginning to end, was monumental, and it was the weapon of choice for the greatest fighter pilots in history. Comparing the Me-109G with the Brewster B-239 that he had flown previously, Finnish ace of aces Eino Ilmari Juutilainen said that "while the Brewster was a gentleman's airplane, the Messerschmitt was a killing machine."
That impression was echoed by Eric Brown, a Royal Navy pilot who test-flew an Me-109G in 1944: "The Bf-109 always brought to my mind the adjective 'sinister.' It has been suggested that it evinced the characteristics of the nation that conceived it, and to me it always looked lethal from any angle, on the ground or in the air; once I had climbed into its claustrophobic cockpit, it felt lethal!"
Anyone who flew the Me-109, and anyone who faced it in battle, would be inclined to agree. The P-47 inspired awe. The Zero earned loyalty. The Spitfire gained devotion. The Me-109 commanded respect."
The full article may be found at:
http://www.historynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/1999/0599_text.htm (http://www.historynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/1999/0599_text.htm)
I think cyber pilots like Aper and Hristo support the historical truths of the 109, even within the domain of AH.
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jagd.jpg)
[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 03-26-2000).]
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Aper is overmodeled and should be removed from the arena!
-Westy
(just kidding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) He is an awesome pilot and I've only ever shot him down in his 109 when he was already distracted)
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gotta say that as a HOG driver the 109 is the plane i fear most .. and now we have swarms of them coming from Knitland flying the JG2 colors .. with time this machine will rack up some awesome stats me guesses.
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(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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Here we go...
If you are guessing that I am prepared to ram this all the way down the breach, you guessed right. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Item 1: For those of you who say that I would rather fly the 1D, but only take the 1C when it gets "Tough". Well I guess it really gets tough for you most of the time.
In fact as of 3/26/00 Tour2 the ratio of how many times it got tougher was 2401% (10517 / 438) higher than when it wasn't tough. That is the percentage of kills the 1C has over the 1D. It is pretty tough, eh?
Item 2: With an K/D ratio maintaining at 2.00 the 1C is the "Lofty King" above all others.
Laughably the K/D ratio of its "Anemic Hanger Ridden Sister" that is "So Called" taken out for "All the but the Hardest Jobs" has fallen from .66 to .63. Pathetic isn't it?
In fact those squires that chase the "Reigning King of the Arena" have also fallen. The 109G-6, 1.26 down to 1.19. The 190A-8, 1.20 down to 1.16. The 109G-10 is up, (yikes watch out 1C a climber) 1.15 to 1.16. Lastly, the P-51D down also, 1.10 to 1.08. These changes have occured in 5 days, better hope for a Tour3 reset.
Item 3: There is a certain player in the arena goes by the callsign "Mino". Lets be honest, Mino sucks. Considering Tour1, Mino had a total K/D ratio of .89 (298 / 333). In every plane Mino flew, Mino sucked. Well almost all. Guess which one? I'll tell you anyway, the F4U-1C.
In this plane Mino had a K/D of 1.87 (56 / 30). So Mino was a stud in this plane and no other. I wonder if Mino thought he really was a stud?
BTW this plane gave Mino a 209% better chance of being successful and Mino is not really a good vulcher either. I'll tell you later how I know this.
Don't ask Mino why he bangs his head in frustration flying only as a target drone flying the P-38L in Tour2. Mino could be more successful flying the 1C.
Item 4: I want to hear from the crowd with closed eyes and closed minds that say "The F4U-1C is not Uber". These players being the ones calling those with open minds and open eyes "Whiners". Them saying that the only success of the 1C is the result of vulching poor unsuspecting Spitfires.
Cacah Boloney Ptui Phrmff... It just ain't so! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Conclusion: Lets hear it, post it anywhere, any thread. Just say "The F4U-1C is an UberPlane". It won't hurt much.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Or-
I load nails and horseshoes on top of the cannon ball....
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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So Whats your point? When the flaps are fixed on these two planes they are going to get even better. Does it realy make a difference the game is still fun and I still use most of the planes in the game. I do use the F4u-1c and it is a very good killer. In it I have been shot down by everything that flys. So what the point This thread is a repeat of the one still going. So whats the point get rid of the F4u-1c get rid of all cannons. Take them off the spit take them off the 190's and the 109s. Get rid of the la5fn cause only a couple of guys use it.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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If it was all cannons then the stats would be somewhat equal, its not, just the f4u cannons. Guess what the game is not still fun. Least in my squad the unhappiness has started. The stats are not just all vulch kills, how can u prove they are? Think I have 5 sorties with vulches in it now, bout 25 kills total. Thats it. Just check my stats, my story is similar to mino's k/d is MUCH higher than any other plane. Sortie count is low to. If it was just the pilot then I would be a stud in every plane correct? Well im not, just the uber hog. In a squad now that flies german iron, so I'm putting away the hog and flying that now. It needs to be seriously looked at. Something smells funny. and its not udie
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Dnil
902nd Immortal Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Does it realy make a difference the game is still fun and I still use most of the planes in the game.
Does it make a difference-yes,in mine and a lot of others opinion it makes a huge difference and detracts from gameplay. Yes the game is still fun-but a lot less than it was before this beast was let out of the pig pen. I have seen very few people who can fly it worth a damn-99% of the weenies who fly it rely on the 1 ping cannons to H/O,H/O,and H/O-did I say H/O yet? The only fights I`ve had where the pilots(1%) displayed any actual skills in it were with kbman and pongo <S> The rest just rely on the H/O and snapshot ability of the cannon.I will say I`ve never been a fan of the RPS and don`t really want to see it here,but unless some other means of limiting its availability can`t be found then it should be implemented ASAP.
weazel has 22 kills and has been killed 35 times against the F4U-1C.
weazel has 5 kills and has been killed 0 times against the F4U-1D.
weazel has 29 kills and has been killed 10 times against the P-51D.
weazel has 16 kills and has been killed 0 times against the Bf 109G-10.
weazel has 43 kills and has been killed 34 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
weazel has 15 kills and has been killed 19 times against the Spitfire Mk V.
weazel has 24 kills and has been killed 17 times against the P-38L.
weazel has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times against the Bf 109G-2.
weazel has 1 kill and has been killed 1 time against the Bf 109F-4.
weazel has 4 kills and has been killed 4 times against the C.205.
weazel has 2 kills and has been killed 1 time against the Fw 190A-8.
weazel has 22 kills and has been killed 21 times against the N1K2.
weazel has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times against the La-5FN.
weazel has 4 kills and has been killed 1 time against the B-26B.
weazel has 6 kills and has been killed 0 times against the B-17G.
Now whats wrong with this picture? There`s no way you can attribute this to poor flying on my part-I do well against every other plane in the arena-so whats the reason for my poor stats against the F4U1c?(BTW I don`t take off from vulched fields so throw that lame excuse out the window) I say yank the damned thing from the game or make it available for scenarios only or a very limited time period in the main arena,the fun factor(fights that rely on ACM and not spray and pray dweebery) will go up for a lot of people.
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(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/victory.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
Aces High Instructor Corps
[This message has been edited by weazel (edited 03-27-2000).]
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First off I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
Point 1, a low hawg is a dead hawg. They are my favorite targets to find low & slow (esp climbing out on auto & talking!)
Point 2 IF they have alt they are dangerous.
Emmmm gee what isn't?
The thing that surprises me is that I don't hear more complaints about the Niki.
(yes my fav ride)
Shrugs
Everyone fly's, Everyone dies.
You do your best & take your chances (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
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weazel has 15 kills and has been killed 19 times against the Spitfire Mk V
So.. I guess this one will be next? Any idea why you might have such a bad record against a plane with one of the worst records in the arena? Could it be that these statistics don't really mean crap?
The LA-5 has one of the worst records in the arena too. Unfortunately, in the last 3 tours I have a record of 1:4 against them. From my perspective, these are uberplanes. I mean.. I could fly one and find out otherwise... but what fun is that? Another strange thing in regards to the LA-5... I added up the stats from 30 pilots that posted in another thread. The average was a 2.5:1 ratio in this plane. Some of them had a 10:1 ratio.
These statistics are not indicative of much. They are easy to inflate and just as easy to take out of context. My record in an F4u-1C: 115:20. My Record in an F4u-1C when going up against an enemy co-alt/co-speed or better: 0:15.
If you want to kill an F4u-1C.. get above it. If you can't figure out how to do that, then you really should be spending more time in the air and less on the forum.
AKDejaVu
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Indian;
Do not be angered at my words. I know how you feel about the 1C, 1D and the F4U in general. You would fly a F4U no matter what version it was. My pointless piont was not pointed at you, nor pointed at others like you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The last thing I want is to have any plane removed. That however; is not going to stop me from giving out a few a "Wedgy's". Only wear the shoe if it fits.
Realistically, the 1C is not getting all that many more kills. The Spit IX has more, and several planes are fairly close. I would have placed the success of the 1D above the P-51D, had there never been a AH F4U-1C. On a par with the LW Uber planes.
IMO, the F4U-1C is in a way very good for AH community. This is by allowing early success of snapshot kills, because many times that is all the shot you get. Thus building the initial confidence in players that will continue to play and pay.
What really really makes me wonder. Why didn't the Americans put these 20mm guns in all mid - late war fighters. At least use a 2x20mm + 2(4)x50cal configuration. Why did they stick with the 6(8)x50cal configuration for wing mounted guns? Didn't even the F-80 have 6x50cals?
If modeled correctly in AH, the 50cal kind of sucks by comparison. Even the lethality of the P-38 is noticably less, than lets say a 109 with 3x20mm.
Makes no sense... Politics maybe?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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So.. I guess this one will be next? Any idea why you might have such a bad record against a plane with one of the worst records in the arena? Could it be that these statistics don't really mean crap?
weazel has 1 kill and has been killed 2 times in the B-17G against the Spitfire Mk V.
weazel has 1 kill and has been killed 2 times in the B-26B against the Spitfire Mk V.
weazel has 2 kills and has been killed 1 time in the Bf 109G-10 against the Spitfire Mk V.
weazel has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time in the Spitfire Mk IX against the Spitfire Mk V.
weazel has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the Spitfire Mk V against the F4U-1C.
weazel has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the C.205 against the Spitfire Mk V.
weazel has 8 kills and has been killed 9 times in the Fw 190A-8 against the Spitfire Mk V.
weazel has 1 kill and has been killed 2 times in the N1K2 against the Spitfire Mk V.
I wondered how long it would take for this to come up,the difference is 4 kills while flying a bomber-otherwise I`m 50%.Whats next the old WB 1.11 UFO P-38 argument?
"I fly it because my granpappy did in WW II"
The statistics are a valid and comprehensive tool for tracking arena statistics,are you accusing people of intentionally losing fights to the C.O.S?
This excuse doesn`t wash either-next?
[This message has been edited by weazel (edited 03-27-2000).]
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Weazel: What are you complaining about as you and your Squad are flying mainly LW inventory.. ??? The 109 is "THE ROCKETSHIP" talking about climb and acceleration .. most of them easily outfly the HOG and with them gondolas and 30mm cannons they easily have the 1 PING - KILL capability like the HOG does..
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AKDejaVu;
If you want to kill an F4u-1C.. get above it. If you can't figure out how to do that, then you really should be spending more time in the air and less on the forum.
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ever fight Torque? He will munch your lunch if you think this will work on an F4U-1C every time.
BTW, you sound like you are the only one who flies and the only one who knows what is what. Some have 200-300 or more hours in AH.
Now, why can't you admit the F4U-1C is Uber? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
At any event, "Good Luck!" in the unfriendly skies... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Ehh, guys..
You do realize that the only difference between the –1C and the –1D is the guns?
The first post here indicates that the –1D is the worst plane in the sim, and the –1C is the best. Based on those statistics I think we can conclude that the only thing ‘uber’ with the plane is the guns, no? So don’t get in front of it.. that should be easy enough since the plane is the worst one out there.. right?
I agree that the cannon hog is a vultchers dream, but I don’t understand the rest of the complaints. If you get kilt by a F4U in a Spit, you are just not doing it right. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
This has probably been said before, but I haven’t read all the ranting in the F4U-1C treads, sorry.
-Jinx
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Ever fight Torque? He will munch your lunch if you think this will work on an F4U-1C every time
Err.. ever fight Camo in a 190? Or aper in a BF 109G-6? Maybe Vila in P-51D? I didn't know you wanted to hand pick pilots to prove your point. Take those exceptional pilots out of the mix and you get down to the realistic effects of flying against an F4u-1C. Its not fair to list uber-pilots as a reason that a plane is uber.
You do realize that the only difference between the –1C and the –1D is the guns?
You do realize that the other difference is the pilots that are flying them? Once again.. I did a check of 30 pilots that posted to a different F4u-1C thread. They averaged a 3.2 k/d ratio in the F4u-1C and a measly 3.6 in the F4u-1D. Amazing.. the same pilots flyinng two birds that's only difference was cannons... and the 1D had a better record.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 03-27-2000).]
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AKDejaVu;
So I guess what say you proves our point? I believe that if you check more broady across the board you will see that more people do better in this plane than others. The stats prove this with out any doubt.
Aper?
1st Runner Up:
1.19 --> 109G-6 - 1215 / 1018
Camo?
2nd Runner Ups:
1.16 --> 190A-8 - 2145 / 1845
Schmucko Mino?
The Winner:
2.00 --> F4U-1C - 10517 / 5254
Look at the numbers. The lower the numbers the more one or two people really effect the outcome.
The 1C has a K/D of 2.0 and the 1D has .63. This means that alot, if not most of the players flying it have a higher K/D. You don't have to be an "Uber Pilot" to do better than average in this plane. Consider they are both about the same plane except for the guns.
So go ahead admit it. The F4U-1C is an "Uber Plane". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-27-2000).]
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AKDejaVu, I think that is what I was trying to say. I think the F4U, any version, is the next worst plane out there (only the 190 is worse). The only thing a bad pilot can do in a bad, but fairly fast, plane is head on everything around. With cannons they will get some kills doing that to, but only against others that run around trying to do the same thing. And they would probably do even better in a 109 with 30mm gondolas or something.
Things will get a lot different when we get the flaps fixed, some planes will gain a lot then. The P38, F4U and P51 most notably I think. But right now, surviving in a hog is hard work and takes lots of planing ahead.
The thing a good stick can do in the cannon hog is end a turn fight at the first snapshot opportunity, that is quicker, easier and more efficient then maneuvering for the tracking shot it takes to get a kill with the .50s. This can make all the difference when you engage more the one foe. But that doesn’t change the fact that almost anything out there can easily outmaneuver you and you have to get the target in front of you to shoot it. With reasonable SA you should never have to get killed by a hog, unless it is driven by one of very few, very good, pilots. And then the version doesn’t matter much.
Mino, I know you are just out trolling, but I think you make a lot of unnecessary damage when you don’t keep the facts straight. There is nothing ‘uber’ about the F4U, just the cannons. And there are bigger cannons out there.
-Jinx
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Sorry, surviving in a hawg is not hard. Killing in an F4U-1C is E A S Y. It isn't the plane, it's the cannons. The Hispano is the best weapon in the game, and the 1C has four of 'em (4 fingers of God). You hit something with them and big flaming hunks pop off.
Time on target necessary for a kill is very small compared to other craft. You almost always have the option to run (if you spent 5 minutes climbing before the fight). It is very difficult to angle fight defensively against a 1C because you cannot give up ANY shots against it (against about any other plane you can allow some hits if in a bad spot).
I'm not saying that the 1C should be removed, but tell me what you'd rather see overhead- 5 F4U-1C's or 5 109 G10's? Me, I would rather see the 109's because they have to get close to kill me. The 1C only needs 700-1.0.
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Hi all,
Aper and Hristo are the only 109 pilots who can fly the plane. Sorry other 109 pilots, but I say what I think. Both better than me, and both fly it absolutly different way, hristo is flying for survive, aper goes into battle against odds and do not care to run away.
Fariz
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The P-51D has 486 kills and has been killed 976 times against the F4U-1C.
The Bf 109G-10 has 357 kills and has been killed 572 times against the F4U-1C.
The Spitfire Mk IX has 1042 kills and has been killed 2055 times against the F4U-1C.
The B-17G has 96 kills and has been killed 501 times against the F4U-1C.
The P-38L has 556 kills and has been killed 1119 times against the F4U-1C.
The Spitfire Mk V has 663 kills and has been killed 1552 times against the F4U-1C.
The F4U-1C has 940 kills and has been killed 940 times against the F4U-1C.
The Bf 109G-6 has 120 kills and has been killed 175 times against the F4U-1C.
The Bf 109G-2 has 52 kills and has been killed 118 times against the F4U-1C.
The Bf 109F-4 has 44 kills and has been killed 83 times against the F4U-1C.
The B-26B has 180 kills and has been killed 716 times against the F4U-1C.
The F4U-1D has 36 kills and has been killed 122 times against the F4U-1C.
The C.205 has 235 kills and has been killed 462 times against the F4U-1C.
The Fw 190A-8 has 226 kills and has been killed 315 times against the F4U-1C.
The N1K2 has 461 kills and has been killed 980 times against the F4U-1C.
The C-47A has 9 kills and has been killed 212 times against the F4U-1C.
Summary:
The F4U-1C has 11411 kills and has been killed 5670 times.
It`s absurd to try and validate the posistion that this plane isn`t unbalancing in the current arena. It`s apparent the only plane that has even a chance against it is-surprise!-the F4U1c. Who would have figured that one? The aircraft with superior (historically) characteristics fare poorly against it,whether they be allied or axis. Trying to compare the 109`s with gun pods is an apples and oranges argument as well and illustrates that some people don`t fly the 109`s much-it`s a total pig with low chance of surviving an encounter with anything other than a bomber if it carries the gun pods. The only question this brings to my mind is if the D and C model Corsairs are basically the same aircraft except for the armament is the weight of the guns and ammo difference modeled correctly in regards to performance and turn/roll rate? In the 109`s and 190 you get a large performance impact using the heavier guns/loadouts-is this also true of the F4U`s?
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Um, weazel, your numbers are interesting. One thing I would point out is that this line:
"The F4U-1C has 940 kills and has been killed 940 times against the F4U-1C."
does not tell us anything. Of course its going to be even, but it doesn't tell us how hard it is for the F4U-1C to kill another F4U-1C. It just tells us that its killed another F4U-1C 940 times. The Spit IX may, for example, have an easier time killing it, we just don't know.
Sisu
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LW planeset lacks competitive planes.
Only one thing helps LW planes and it is MW 50 in 109G-10.
Where is D-9, 262, or even MW 50 in A-8 ?
A-5 won't help much.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-27-2000).]
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My main problem with any "unballancing" argument is purely based on the fact that in my flying I don't run across them that often. I don't see 5 F4u-1C's flying in formation. I don't see half of the planes in a furball have the F4u id over them. I just don't see this at all.
I do see hordes of 109s (Do these guys only fly in groups) and more Spit-IX than you can shake a stick at. I've even seen nothing but p-51 icons clog the sky. I just can't remember seeing an F4u anywhere but over a base vulching.
Come now... all of those people that are posting here... Do you really sit there and say "oh my god... its an F4u... I'm toast"? I actually think "The idiot will go for a snapshot... make him commit low... if he tries to turn to get the shot I have him."
Don't try to HO an F4u-1C. Don't pass in front of an F4u-1C. Remember an F4u-1C can't climb, accelerate, retain E nor turn for crap. Figure out how to use those things against it.
It just amazes me that people spend more time discussing why the F4u-1C should be removed than they do discussing what maneuvers/tactics work best to kill it.
AKDejaVu
-Done beating the same topic into the ground yet another time
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 03-27-2000).]
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AKDejavu-
With all due respect, what game have you been playing lately?
I personally would never call for the removal of any plane, but I have to tell you that clearly 25-40% of the planes I see are F4U's. And yes, when you see 4-5 of them over your head (and I see that all the time) you are thinking "that's all for me". I do see them away from fields. I see them high and low. Like American Express, they are everywhere you want to be. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I don't care if people fly them or don't, but I do think there are some legitimate gripes being posted about them IMHO. I need to fly them from time-to-time because I have to teach others to fly them. But I'll tell you I feel a bit guilty when I do- and this is not intended as a slam- because they are too easy to kill in for my taste.
Now we will soon have the Typhoon. Same thing, faster at low level, better views. You want to guess what half the arena will be flying two weeks after that beast hits? 25% 1C, 25% Typhoon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I want a good fight- win or lose- not a situation where the outcome was never really in doubt. Put me in a 1C 2K over your head and you are already as good as dead. If I'm in a 109F4 I have to think a few steps ahead of you and make multiple passes to get the job done, and even then you have a pretty good chance to get away.
You don't have to agree that the 1C unbalances the arena, but you have to admit it is flown in great numbers and is without doubt the most lethal plane in the set.
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The Spit-IX has been shot down more times than the F4u-1C has kills. The P-38 and Spit-V have been shot down nearly as much. The P-51, 109's, N1K and bombers average 5k deaths each. The F4u-1C dominance is not responsible for all of these. If you argue that it has an outlandish k/d... then you are also admitting it does more killing with fewer sorties (a stretch.. but it has to correlate). The F4u-1C is flown less than at least 3 other aircraft in the arena (Spit IX, V and P-38). I'd venture to say it is flown less than one or two other planes based on observations. It is not, however, the most flown aircraft in the arena.
I have 128 kills vs 31 deaths. That's 159 engagements. I am 5:2 againts the F4u-1C. Of 159 conflicts, only 7 of them were against an F4u-1C. I know I've ran from P-51's (3 of them together just yesterday), P-38's, Spit-IX's and recently camo's 190D. I cannot ever remember running from an F4u-1C.
So.. once again, I have to ask... where the hell are all these F4u-1C's that are dominating the skies? Maybe things have changed in the last day or two. After all, everyone gets to come to the forum and read just how much better of a pilot they will be once they start flying the F4u-1C.
BTW... still no mention of why strategy against the 1C has not even been discussed once.
AKDejaVu
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Sure it has AK.
Every time discusion of avoiding HO arises.
Just the fact that HOs against the F4u1c 95 % of the time lead to your death not his could account for the difference in numbers we see. Just take the P51 and make every HO a win and see what happens to its KD.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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When I come in on a Spit-IX flying my F4u-1C... I'm thinking all the way: "(3k)please hold still...(2k) don't break yet... 1.5k)wait.. (1.2k)" then the pilot breaks and I know I have him. I'm sorry if most of the arena thinks that letting the enemy get real close to you then pulling back on the stick is the solution to all your problems. How many of those doing it realize what a x-section they present when doing it?
I am simply amazed at how many people don't even try to avoid my guns. I have the video of my last flight. It was a two victory flight against an F4u-1C and a Spit-IX. Both of them ignored me. The F4u-1C dove way down below me then tried an immelman and somehow managed to stall with his nose straight up in the air. A stationary target is an easy kill. The Spit-IX was trying to protect a low 47 from 2 other spits. He ignored me as I closed from 3k to 1k in a span of 30 seconds. I called my wife over to the computer saying.. "honey.. come watch this". When I was at 800 yards I fired off a burst that pinged the spit's wing 6 times without breaking it. The spit pilot yanked back on the controls and gave me a beautiful shot... every control surface fell off as I fired at him from 600 yds all the way to 400. Niether kill was due to the invincibility, uberness nor outstanding pilot skill.
Both kills were do to the fact that two pilots thought they could ignore those 4 cannons behind them. Many more are caused by the fact that people don't believe that F4u vulching the base can get his nose around fast enough after that last pass. Or.. that waiting till the enemy is 1.5k back is a good idea before breaking.
Face it.. the F4u-1C does well because people have gotten lazy. They are used to being pinged x ammount of times before damage. They are used to hearing the first ping then breaking. People firmly believe they will get that aircraft in front of them before the one behind them does them in. The F4u-1C throws a clog into the gears that make those beliefs reallity. It kills because people forgot that cannons are something you don't want to be in front of at any cost. People forgot that you have to pay attention to the guns that are pointed at you because you never know what might happen when the other pilot squeezes the trigger
I could go on for hours about why people are really losing to the F4u-1C. None of it has to do with the fact that it is an uber plane. I know why people lose to it... I watch it happen on my monitor 1.5 times per sortie. I tell my wife about the mistake they are making as I aproach. I say things like "as long as he doesn't..." and they don't. Or... "crap, now he's got good position" and they blow it. Or... "these planes take a long time to start their engines" as I shoot the same pilot for the 8th time OTR.
AKDejaVu
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Never said the plane was uber- I said the guns require the least time on target to kill.
Didn't say the F4U-1C makes me a wonderful pilot- I said its guns require the least amount of time on target for me to kill.
Didn't say people don't fly stupid sometimes- I said the F4U-1C's guns make killing very easy.
What is there for you to dispute here?
Good range + best guns + large ammo load + good speed = killing machine.
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<SIGH> From the JG2 Forum posted by Dnil.
I filmed the whole thing, file is pretty large but will send it to anyone that wants it. Watch the guy that first hit weazel, too funny, his plane was in pieces as he hit weaz, uggh.
This is one of my biggest gripes about the F4U1c,here is a plane shot to pieces that STILL manages to quake me with a spray and pray. The bottom line in this argument is while you corsair dweebs are having fun the rest of the arena who don`t rely on this crutch are getting robbed of their enjoyment. This isn`t the only time this garbage has happened to me,I shot the wing off one and it turned into the "Death Blossom" from The Last Starfighter movie as it spiraled to the ground. Barring some kind of restriction on the availability of this plane I`ll just ask for a comparable aircraft for us LW flyers,the TA-152 comes to mind in this case.
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Kieren,
Not every reply is directed towards you. The reply right below your post never mentioned "uber" once. Nor did it mention anything about making someone a better pilot. Nor.. did I say that you said anything.
You said:
but I have to tell you that clearly 25-40% of the planes I see are F4U's
I will reply one more time to this to make it very clear. The data presented does not show this (F4u-1Cs account for 18% of all kills), nor does my experience in the arena indicate this to me. I have seen situations where there have been F4u-1Cs in abundance... at a base vulching.
When I am at 25k cruising along and see a con, I think wonder if its a B-17 or a B-26... then I wonder if its not a bomber... then I wonder if its a Spit-IX, P-51 or P-38. If there are two of them I wonder if they are 109's. It isn't really even a consideration that it could be an F4u-1C.
Maybe its just me. Maybe all F4u-1C pilots know to keep away from me or fear my wrath. To date I have only managed to instill this behavior in my wife's two cats... but this could be the start of a new trend (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So, the use of "uber" and "makes a pilot better" wasn't in rebuttal to anything you have said. I won't dispute that the cannons on the F4u-1C are the most powerful in the arena. What I will dispute till the end is the fact that someone believes that the aircraft 800 yards behind him with guns blazing shouldn't be able to do as much damage as it does (once again.. not saying you said that.. just explaining the other post in response to someone else's post).
AKDejaVu
Done with this thread... for there is nothing more to say.
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Hmmm. I just don't get it.
The 1c is dangerous, just not uber.
I usually fear a high 109 over a 1c. I know the 1c has fewer screw-ups it can get away with.
Its certainly not uber, at least not when I fly it. ;> Sure the guns are big, but its also more pig than hawg. I only really enjoy it when I'm flying wingman with my squadie. Then you can make up for its deficiencies with team work. I mostly like my dweebspit.
I checked my stats (first time):
Tour2
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AKWabbit has 6 kills and has been killed 6 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the F4U-1C.
Hmmm. I won't be having many 1c nightmares. But thats a small sampling. Lemme look back at tour1.
Tour1
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AKWabbit has 21 kills and has been killed 4 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the F4U-1C.
(shrug) I just don't see the uberness. They jive with my gut feeling. I just don't remember getting whacked by 1c's 50 times a night. I don't know what color the sky is in your world but they're not DOMINATING my arena. Am I reading these stats the right way? I killed 24 1c's, and only 4 1c's kilt me? (shrug) I don't get it? Wheres the beef?
Its scores are vulch driven I think. No biggie. Nothing to shake in fear over. No need to have nightmares about those big, blue boogiemen. No need for petitions to have it removed. Just keep your head, fly smart, get him to commit and blow his E, then send him to Jesus.
$0.02, no charge,
Wab
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Wabbit,
While I appreciate you supporting my argument, I feel oblicated to inform people that the reason you don't think the F4u-1C is lethal is because 50% of the time you take one up, you don't have any ammo in it.
Sorry Wab... I just couldn't let that be overlooked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Well this discussion is no fun anymore. Reasonableness has set in.
Weaz is correct, lots of silly kills seem to happen arround the f4u1c, the types of kills that take the fun out of the fight. Wabbit and DV are right...its not like most of the time you cant handle a mediocre flown F4u1c..Keiren always brings anoying reasonableness to any discussion so of course he is fundimentaly right. sheessh...yup this ones dead.
thanks alot it had some real promise there.
Have to go back to the Up Gun the 51! fight already in process.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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...yer jus not gonna let me live that one down are ya?
Hell DJ, I don't need no stinking bullets. I just fly over their base and all the weak sisters faint from fright at the sight of my big blue beast and fall to the ground! No need to fire a shot.
Wab
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Kieren: again .. i don't know what you complain about .. the 109 with gondolas and a Tank climbs as well as a F4U.. it accelerates FASTER, it has better turn capability and you have also ping/KILL capabilities with those 30mm's .. your only disadvantage is the lower roll rate.
Jeezz .. they hold so many advantages and still have to say the other bird is UBER ...
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...and range disadvantage, Duckwing. 30 mm is useless against fighters at more than 300 yards even in straight chase. Lightyears away from 900 yards kills the Hog delivers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
MG 151/20 is better, it can actually damage planes up to 500 yards in straight chases.
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hmm Hristo i don't hit a barn door in a straight 6 chase .. i usually kill my targets at about 300 to 400 yards with some slight angle .. and i KNOW you do the same (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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One on One the F4u1C is no uberplane. When you fight someone in the trainingarena you'll see that it's easily beaten even if it gets the headstart (more alt). That's why you won't see many guys dueling in the trainingarena in it (except of course Leph and Torque).
In the Main Arena it's a different situation. When I fly a 109 in the main arena it's always dangerous to get kills... because most of the time you need time (multiple passes) to get a kill. Everybody knows that the longer the fight lasts (the lower it goes) the more dangerous it becomes (other higher bogies showing up etc).
The F4u has definatly the advantage in this regard (the best plane IMO) cause if the con screws up (breaks to late, or split S's to late) he'll be dogmeat. The large ammoload helps alot too cause you can spray and pay (when he breaks) from about 700-600 yards without much worry. In short the perfect BnZer.
In a 109 even a spit or N1K you have to work the kill (unless it's a perfect bounce). In an F4u 50% of the time it's all over after the first pass (= safer).
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BEE(JENG)
=CO=III/JG2~Richthofen~
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/109bee.gif)
'Nemo Impune Lacessit'
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Duckwing-
Sift through my above posts and point to any reference of the F4U as uber.
I am not the 109 poster boy. I have only said that the F4U-1C is a serious threat in the arena, I see a lot of them, and for me it is the easiest plane to get kills in because of the limited time needed to keep guns on target.
I am in no way asking that it be removed or even limited. My point to stating what is obvious to many is that there are apparently some who do not feel the F4U-1C is the most lethal plane in the arena, that is only flown by little old cookie-baking women on their way to bible study. I believe there are some valid questions concerning the lethality of the Hispano cannons vs. the other guns- but this does not mean I take one side or the other.
The minute someone says "the lethality of the guns should be looked at" one of the 1C defenders will say "you need to do this to avoid HO's" or "a low hawg is a dead hawg". These statements are true enough, but they evade the root concern; the lethality of the guns should be looked at.
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When I fly the 1c, I will rarely fight any other plane except a bomber or another 1c under equal terms. When I fly other planes like the 109g10 or c205, I will. I don't know how others fly, but in my case I will spend several minutes getting the 1c up to around 20k before heading into a fight. When I get there, I wait until I have a HUGE position advantage, and preferably 1 vs 1, before I make a bnz pass. If I miss, or the enemy tries to get me to turn, I just regrab alt and try again. My opinion is that this is how the p51, and f4u are generally flown. In my experience unless the other player makes a huge mistake, or goes for the HO, under equal E terms, I'm usually dead. When at a disadvantage, I either run, or if the opportunity presents itself (not often) try for a quick snapshot and then dive at full speed. (I've had 4 people compress and auger this tour alone. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) I think, in my case at least, I get more kills in the 1c versus other planes because of:
A. I'm more careful about E management. B. The plane is pretty fast down low and can take a TON of damage. C. I try to avoid fights, except where I have an advantage. D. (Ok, I'll admit it.) The GUNS! Need I say more? Give me one good shot at under 500 yds and your toast 99.99999% of the time. E. No one in their right mind will HO you. (Funny thing is spits do it a lot for some reason???)
Like any other plane, it has it's strengths and weaknesses. In the case of the 1c, however, its main strength is HUGE compared to other planes (guns). Recently I've tried to fly a few other planes the same way that I fly the 1c. I did pretty well. (I keep breaking p51 wings off though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) Usually if I can get within 500 yds of an opponent's 6, I usually win, regardless of plane. I really like the 109g10 now, and if I don't burn up all the ammo taking silly snapshots, I have a lot of fun flying it. Unlike the f4u, if you get in trouble and have wep left, usually you can accelerate and climb away to safety.
When it comes to what types of planes I see in the arena most frequently, I'd have to say I see more spits than anything. Next, I'd say it's a toss-up between n1ks and 109s. After that, usually f4u's, p51s, and then p38s. Rarely I see a 190, 205, or la5. (Does anyone that isn't a knight fly a la5?)
I'm waiting eagerly to see what will happen when a plane similar to the f4u (Typhoon) is relased. I also think that ground vehicles will also change arena dynamics somewhat. I think that Typhoons and F4us will be seen primarally shooting a vehicles and vulching. I also anticipate a drop in f4u-1c k/d to around 1.5 by the end of tour 3 as a result.
As far as my own k/d, it usually stays around 1.3. In the f4u-1c it is over 2 to 1. Besides the deaths in c47s and bombers, I can only attribute the difference to: A. I don't up from vulched bases in f4us. B. I'm more cautious in f4us. C. GUNS!!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) YES, I ADMIT IT, THE GUNS ARE AWESOME. (4 20mm with that much ammo will ALWAYS be awesome though.) There is only one gun that has better leathality, and that is the 30mm in the 109. Last night (convergence at 250) I landed 1 ping at 150 yds, using only 30mm, and was rewarded with a BIG explosion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Ok, I've gone on long enough, time to shut up and fly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Kieren
I agree. The 1c has a very powerful and forgiving gun package. Is the Hispano Mk2 a little over modeled. Probably. But HT could have much better numbers than me on the guns.
RAM just asked about if the A8 and the 1c should not be more comparable in broadside in another thread. Pyro kinda mysticaly shut that down. From the numbers I have you would probably need a slide rule to tell the difference between a 4 * 20mm A8 and the 1c(except better ammo load for the 1c) I dont think its like that in the game. On the other hand I often get the best of 1c in a HO with a 2 gun FW.
I would say that there is no comparison between the fire power of a 1c and a 3 * 20mm 109 in the game....a spit with 50cals is way more comparable in fire power to the gondola 109.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Torque is about as good as it gets in a 1c. I took a 190 up today and went after him a few times. I out turned him (he died), and held my own in the HO s. So much for the uber 1c nonsense.
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BTW the 1C K/D is 2.01 and the 1D still hanging at a dismal .63.
Uber? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-29-2000).]
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Originally posted by weazel:
The P-51D has 486 kills and has been killed 976 times against the F4U-1C.
The Bf 109G-10 has 357 kills and has been killed 572 times against the F4U-1C.
The Spitfire Mk IX has 1042 kills and has been killed 2055 times against the F4U-1C.
The B-17G has 96 kills and has been killed 501 times against the F4U-1C.
The P-38L has 556 kills and has been killed 1119 times against the F4U-1C.
The Spitfire Mk V has 663 kills and has been killed 1552 times against the F4U-1C.
<snip>
The Bf 109G-6 has 120 kills and has been killed 175 times against the F4U-1C.
The Bf 109G-2 has 52 kills and has been killed 118 times against the F4U-1C.
The Bf 109F-4 has 44 kills and has been killed 83 times against the F4U-1C.
The B-26B has 180 kills and has been killed 716 times against the F4U-1C.
The F4U-1D has 36 kills and has been killed 122 times against the F4U-1C.
The C.205 has 235 kills and has been killed 462 times against the F4U-1C.
The Fw 190A-8 has 226 kills and has been killed 315 times against the F4U-1C.
The N1K2 has 461 kills and has been killed 980 times against the F4U-1C.
The C-47A has 9 kills and has been killed 212 times against the F4U-1C.
<snip>
For the unbelievers, find another plane with this record. All wins no losses...
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-29-2000).]