Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Seagoon on April 21, 2002, 11:45:03 PM
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Hi All,
I guess I'd like to have a discussion with fellow Rooks mostly to try to figure out what is consistently going wrong with our side.
I've just read two threads that correctly note that we have some serious problems. Some of our older squads are even considering leaving, and personally I understand why. We have an almost terminal lack of numbers - even nits and bishes admit that there are certain times of day when the ratio is always against us. But that begs the question, why don't people want to be - or stay - Rook?
I'm a compulsive underdog player, and I never switch sides, so the chances of my leaving are slim to none. But I can fully understand why others do. So here are my questions, and I'm hoping you guys can help me answer them:
1) Why do we seem religiously opposed to working together? On the odd occasion that someone posts a mission, it is inevitably undersubscribed some are even totally ignored even when they aren't stupid. Calls for help go ignored, calls to consolidate in one area are also ignored, calls for updates as to the situation at a given field are ignored. No country is worse than the Rooks about failing to provide escorts for Goons; I've actually watched Rooks with OVERWHELMING numbers at a base allow a single stray Con to blow away an incoming Rook Goon because they are more interested in being the first of five Rooks to chase down another fleeing Con.
2) Why do we seem so unconcerned about the Strategic situation? I have to hand it to the Bishes. Whenever their home islands are under attack they come together and work en masse to try to recover or defend home fields. WE ROOKS on the other hand, will actually continue to furball on center island while our home bases are being taken. Calls to the dweeb brigade for help and pointing out the obvious (hey guys we are about to lose X home base!) are inevitably greeted with "Shut up, I pay my money to play and have fun" replies. It never seems to occur to them that they aren't going to have much fun with no resources, no dar, and a 9 to 1 ratio against them.
Heaven help the poor Rook who tries to offer strategic advice, or tries to organize a defense - he gets hammered with "You're not the boss of me" and the aforementioned "Shut Up, I pay my money..." replies. We can actually watch the effectiveness of mass attacks from the other teams and then immediately respond to suggestions that we do the same thing with the same inane "I hate all forms of authority and organization replies".
So is it that we have an extraordinarily high percentage of selfish players, is there a vast bishnit conspiracy, or do we need a special arena created called "Useless Dweeb Furballers" with an 8x8 map and only 1 base?
And now, from the secret archives an actual Rook Country Channel conversation:
"Rook1: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
Rook2: Yes.
Rook1: But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
Rook2: Yes, I see.
Rook1: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
Rook2: Be quiet!
Rook1: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
Rook2: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
Rook3: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
Rook2: I am your king!
Rook3: Well, I didn't vote for you."
- Seagoon
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We suck. Everyone's a hero, almost nobody will goon, even if a base is down and ready. We are constantly divided, and there's no team leadership.
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Looks like the Rooks Joint Operations is taking a break... it will be revived :)
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The Rooks were on a Blitzkrieg tonight. We took 5 bases within 40 minutes and pushed knights all the way to the corner of the uterus map.
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I think we Rooks tend to cooperate when we have the numbers to do so... it's hard to go on a mission when you know the next rook base is about to fall... and another... and another....
Then people just say "what the..." and don't give a damn about teamwork, since, as the Bishorgs say: "Resistance is futile, you will be reset". :)
Daniel
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I really hope that those squads that consider leaving the Rooks will reconsider. Our squadron actually recently rejoined Rooks because Knits had the high numbers constantly while Rooks were always in minority... in European late evenings that is.
I am also quite surprised that many other Bishes and Knits have not made the same move already. Must be difficult to find targets when odds are 120-120-70 like last night... and Rooks were being banged for reset.
At least we Rooks can always find enemies ;)
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rooks run from a fair fight and complain when outnumbered
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Originally posted by Seagoon
But that begs the question, why don't people want to be - or stay - Rook?
Maybe you guys need a new slogan. This "Come get Ganghumped by the Bish/Knight MA Juggernaught" just isn't getting the new recruits" Maybe you should try "Be all that you can be" The army had some success with that in the 80s. I'm sure others have some good slogan ideas for increasing Bish recruitment.
-Sikboy
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Here Here Blauk :)
I don't see the logic of leaving your homeland because the numbers are so lopsided ... heck, that will leave them numbers more lopsided ;). And I don't buy that the Rooks are consistently less organized than the other Countries, we have all had our share of snafus :).
My take on it is that every Country has it's ups and downs, and the Rooks are down right now, can't argue that. But, now is not the time to give up the ghost and flee to another Country, now is the time to strengthen our resolve and come out swinging for the next round!
I look at Country loyalty almost as important as Squad loyalty. My Squad has had its ups and downs over its seven-year tenure, but I never even once considered leaving, and I'm sure you feel the same about your Squad :). Rookland is my Country, and I'm not leaving her, especially when she needs help the most.
Oh, and I think FD is right, look for a little rebound of the RJO ;).
Cya Up!
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Seagoon, the only problem is in the numbers. For similar numbers rooks work fine, like yesterday night.
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The "problem" is we have a few Knight and Bishop generals in disguise playing the Rook side. Rooks just want to have fun- it's just taking a little longer for some of the guys to figure it out.
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Perhaps it is due timezone, but I never encountered a "general" playing in rookland and never found anyone trying to imposse any kind of strategy using the country channel. Some of us just post missions, some rooks simply join and proceed with it. Most of the action is squad oriented instead of team oriented.
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been a rook for a long time and except for the fact that we are down on numbers lately... I don't see a problem. Course... I never thought capturing bases was a lot of fun in any case.
lazs
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It's been a number of months since I've flown rook or nit. I spent most of last semester with Busher hounding me to come back home. When I finally did, I noticed a major difference. There are some people on the Bish side that are not only very loyal to .country 1, but are willing to give up a lot of their time to recruit people for missions. Over the last couple of months, it's gotten to the point that a mere name draws enough numbers to take a base against superior opposing numbers (especially now with AHV). I've been lucky enough to lead a few of these missions but the ones that I put up are usually 50/50 on whether or not people join. People like Falcnwng, DsrtRat, and Fariz consistantly put up missions and people will lawndart their planes to join. I don't remember the rooks having anything vaguely like this. Do they now?
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I have a couple of comments. I disagree with a couple of posts.
Seagoon - I agree that there are selfish players, they exist in the other two countries as well. Their excuses will surface when the tables are turned, they will. We do need to work together, all of us need to "play our part as a team" to assist others in need, take fields, protect our fleets". The sun is on the horizon for us, don't get down over this Seagoon, I love underdogs too, you are more unpredictable that way, use it to your advantage.
Sikboy - Due to the recent allegations (i.e. the Catholic Church), I don't need any "advice" or "trash talk" from a Bishop. Worry about your church, Bishops, we'll tend to the castles! {I'm catholic} I shot down a Bishop piloted C-47 that was trying outturn and outrun me (in a Spit Mk IX)! He went down tired and never had a chance all alone over water. What should be his slogan? "Catholic bishop needed to replace pilot who strayed from his group?"
It doesn't do us any good to get worried about this, instead of griping about it, do something about it! Get an extra kill, If you are logging off, go back up "one more time". I have been playing this for FOUR DAYS, four days and communicate efficiently with my squardon, and other planes. If there is any "legitimate" gripe, it is lack of communication. People are more worried about inflating their ego's with typing trash talk in-game, then asking which bases needs help? or any other HELPFUL aspect of being a "troubled" Rook.
I'm sure I have ticked a couple of people off, because "I am new" and "have the nerve to post this crap!!!". Instead of complaining about a map that changes DAILY (it does). Friday night, the Bishops had to pee in the ocean, off of their dinghy's. Let's work together and put the "trash talkers" in their place. Off of the map! I will do my part, will you?
Those in an opposing country (in-game) who feel 'touched" by this post, bring it on in the air, please. Channel your aggression towards me, while you are doing that the "island hopping will commence". Sure, I'll take some licks (and have no problem with that), but it evens out, when it is all said and done.
If we are a "team". let's start acting like a TEAM! GO ROOKS!!!!!!!!
Jay
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Mandoble-
Clearly there are. Read the originating post in this thread.
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FWIW, any post that contains the words useless furballers or strat potatos are downgraded to useless noise on my monitor... it's all valid play.
It's the same tired "people won't play my way" argument, yadda yadda yadda...
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Originally posted by Citabria
rooks run from a fair fight and complain when outnumbered
BS.
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Yes, rooks are in number disadvantage. Problem that with every reset more people leave rooks, which leave them in bigger disadvantage... Etc.
I think one of possible decisions is: HTC make some "numbermeter", which records number of people every half hour and makes average. Right now newbies join new country randomly, but it can be done depending on that average numbers. So, for examply, if numbers for last week were 40% knighs, 35% bishops, 25% rooks, rooks get 40% of newbies, bishops get their 35%, and knights get 25%.
Sure, newbies can switch, but some people are loyal for country they first logged for, and this way it may be ballanced at least some way.
Fariz
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Originally posted by Citabria
rooks run from a fair fight and complain when outnumbered
Fester is never heard complaining :rolleyes:
Perhaps nobody hears him, his runaways take him too far out :D
Oh! wait, does anybody remember shooting him down? :D
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The few numbers of rookland isn't the problem, is the consequence of the real problem:
Lack of lidership, individuality and selfish behavior.
Result: an utter mess.
It is not by hazard that the spaniards toreadors play this country. If you know rookland, you know Spain :rolleyes:
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I have a much better solution, and it doesn't involve HTC.
Everyone that doesn't like the way the Rooks fly leaves for better climes in Knightland or Bishropia. Then all that will be left are the people that don't complain, and even if it is pounded by the other two sides 24/7 we will never hear "Why don't you guys care if we lose twenty sev-uuuuuuuuuuuun?! *sob*"
Problem solved.
'Course, I forwarded this idea before- all strat guys go to Bishops, furballers to Rooks, etc. You guys have the power to make it happen. If you want a two-sided war (as if that would change anything) you can have it by going to only one or the other sides. Do we have to have HTC legislate every form of play?
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I agree Kieran, get rid of the complaining, stand on your hind legs and FIGHT!!!!!
We don't need complaining!
Jay
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It's true, Rooks have been out #ed and have been reset repeatedly because of it. Their numbers have declined further as a result but how could they fix the problem. All three of the countries have their share of selfish players and lack of team work at times. Any problems that Rooks have had, the other two countries have had also.
Bish I would have to say (IMO) are the most team oriented and it could possibly be due to the fact that they constantly run missions.
Knights, up until maybe 8 weeks ago were in the same perdicament as the Rooks until repeated calls for team work were called for. The calls for community help were not affective alone and will never be. When successful missions were added things began to change and many squadrons gained members because of it.
Rooks need mission leaders who can rally players and be successful in running missions to pull them together. You guys have two squads that I know of who should be able to do what Bish and Knights have already done. The Arabian Knights and Flying Tigers AVG are 2 of probably 7 squads you have who could help. These are the teams you must support to be affective or dwindle away.
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I think it is a question of loyality and the new players first impression of the different countries. I remember when I first started in Feb 2000, I tried all three countries and I found the Bishops (at that time) to be the most cooperative and that's where I've been ever since.
In the early days the Knights always had the most players and were the strongest country. Bishops have now caught up with the Knights but poor old Rookland still lag far behind. It is a shame really because when Rookland want to fight they can kick everyones ass! Not being a cRook I really don't know who plans their missions but everyone in Rookland should try and participate more on the mission planning. That's simply what has happened with Bishlandia; people expect missions all the time and if no-one plans a mission then someone else plans one etc.
Yes, people do switch sides and again I think it's mostly the newish pilots that haven't decided on their 'home country' yet. It is these people the Rooks should be trying to keep. Give them all the support they need, help them with their missions, etc. Quite often I've killed some Rooks and then the next thing I see them flying alongside me!?! Uh? Didn't I just kill you?? :eek:
So yes, it is a numbers game, but it all comes down to what time you log on. The best times to check the roster is probably the weekend when most people are on. I guess this would give you a better perspective as to the ratio between countries.
Just my 2 pence worth.... (BTW, Pepe, a true Rook!! :) )
Regards
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Originally posted by Replicant
.... (BTW, Pepe, a true Rook!! :) )
Regards
OK, since it's you, I won't take the offense :D
Nexx :)
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...what's really needed is for some of us Rooks to take our useless, disorganized, just-fly-for-fun-in-the-hour-we-have show on the road and visit the other countries. In time, our doctrine will be spread and people will lighten up and realize it's a game...
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Originally posted by ZXMAW
Rooks need mission leaders who can rally players and be successful in running missions to pull them together.
No way. Every country has a % of players flying for fun and for only few minutes. Also a % of players just learning the game, not really a factor for any mission. And, finally, a % of players really available for missions or for whatever. With our usual numbers, this last % may represent about 20 players or less, probably the same % of any other country, but not enough to do successful missions while also keeping the borders defended.
As far as I rememer, every time rookland has had numbers to play with, we have been taking enemy bases one after another.
Think that every time we are outnumbered, we become the "easy" meat for bish and knights, and the inmediate effect is the gangbang.
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Originally posted by Preon1
It's been a number of months since I've flown rook or nit. I spent most of last semester with Busher hounding me to come back home. When I finally did, I noticed a major difference. There are some people on the Bish side that are not only very loyal to .country 1, but are willing to give up a lot of their time to recruit people for missions. Over the last couple of months, it's gotten to the point that a mere name draws enough numbers to take a base against superior opposing numbers (especially now with AHV). I've been lucky enough to lead a few of these missions but the ones that I put up are usually 50/50 on whether or not people join. People like Falcnwng, DsrtRat, and Fariz consistantly put up missions and people will lawndart their planes to join. I don't remember the rooks having anything vaguely like this. Do they now?
The answer to your questions is, sometimes.
Last evening, I discovered a large group of GVs, backed by two C-47s threatening P4, with only 1 GV defending. I attacked and killed the two goons, and blasted an M3 and Flak. However, I was low on gas and ord, so I asked for help, being specific as to the threat. Within two minutes, at least 10 Rooks had arrived, grabbing GVs or diverting in their aircraft from other locations. It took me 15 minutes to rearm, refuel and return. By then, the enemy GVs were eliminated. That rapid response saved the port from capture. Team work was excellent.
Saturday was a different story. About 7 of us attacked and eventually capped a Bish field. More and more Rooks arrived, but no one bothered to bring a goon, despite several of us repeatedly asking for one. As things went from good, to fair and then to bad, Bish fighters began arriving from their nearest field. Naturally, most of the Rooks began chasing these, rather than cap the field, which became an issue as an FH came up. Low on gas, out of ammo and patience, I RTB'd and logged off. It wasn't worth getting seriously aggrevated over.
Again, last night my squadies and I were working the south side of the map. Usually, if there are two or more =Ghosts= logged on, we will fly together. Last night we worked with other squads very effectively.
Maybe it's my imagination, but I find that there is considerably less cooperation on weekend days, than that typically displayed at night. Which is why I don't fly as much during the day any longer.
One point about setting up missions. When you're badly out-numbered, it will always be problematic filling out the mission ranks. Most people are too busy defending. It is of no value to take 20% of your force for a mission with limited objectives and almost no chance of reversing the onslaught. Mission planners need to consider the tactical situation before setting up a mission of limited value.
My regards,
Widewing
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Seagoon:
Ahhh the mystery of Rookdom!:)
From my perspective I see it as a multi faceted problem :D
Tactically Rooks have done amazing things with overwhelming numbers or with fewer numbers. In this respect I believe there is a direct connection with the number of dweeb wanna bees who happen to be online and in the arena. You can tell by the number of furballs and, in those furballs count the number of pilits in a conga line chasing after one lone, low nme fiter. Then look behind and above them to see the number of nme fiters who have superior alt and energy diving down after them; these are not very smart players.
Then there are the :"for the greater glory of (add squad name here)" types who, strategy and sound tactics be damned, will go to some ill advised nme area and start a fight they cannot finish. They call out over ch:2 that they need help. Smarter Rooks look at the map and wonder why in hell they are there and, how screwed up their location is tactically.
Also there is the time of day which determines the number and quality of pilits up in the arena. Rooks seem to have the fewest numbers up at all hours except at night IMO. There seem to be a larger number of veteran groups up during the later hours. In my experience in Rookland, this is the time that more consistent success and better teamwork occurs.
What we face has always been since I and my squad moved to Rookland. Nits will fight Rooks only most days, and Bish will take advantage of their absence to either milk their land or milk Rooks land. When Rooks have overwhelming numbers the whines from nits and Bish fill CH1 :)
Teamwork is not: dropping what yer doing because some guy you never heard of has a great idea for a mission that'll take 60 minutes to organize, and those who he wants to fly in it will have to wait; screw that, I logged on to fly, fight and have fun.
The best missions are the ones that can be prepared quickly; that are sound tactically and that will yeild results.
Success is: NOT spending resources attacking freakin VH fields.
It IS protecting your HQ; it IS keeping your flanks sound; it IS attacking no more than 2 targets at a time and porking targets you are going to eventually hit or, targets that will slow down the defense an nme can put up.
These things take a little thought, and no amount of yelling or insult will get those I described above to do things differently. What does work though, is a few squads with a purpose to cooperate and others in Rookland will join in; it is a strength we have that the others don't I think.
And once Rooks get rolling we are hard to stop and tough to beat.
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>>rooks run from a fair fight and complain when outnumbered<<
MOOSE COOKIES!!!
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>>Most of the action is squad oriented instead of team oriented.<<
Depending on the night, and what is happening in the arena, this can be a part of the problem.
RJO style, is there anything wrong with organizing in a cooperative way,, an attack ?
I know I have logged on and seen on several occassions an nme field one sector away from Rook HQ. Rooks have tended to be distracted by nme actions and the threat goes unnoticed or, nothing is done to remove the immediate threat. I have seen the problem and, pointed it out over CH2. After a while Rooks have joined in the effort, removed the threat and then organized to clean up our lines and roll the nme before us; and this is without overwhelming numbers.
If squad COs would look at the map and figure what is best for the country instead of their squads perhaps this would yeild more success and eventually more kills; everybody wins.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
1) Why do we seem religiously opposed to working together? On the odd occasion that someone posts a mission, it is inevitably undersubscribed some are even totally ignored even when they aren't stupid. Calls for help go ignored, calls to consolidate in one area are also ignored, calls for updates as to the situation at a given field are ignored. No country is worse than the Rooks about failing to provide escorts for Goons; I've actually watched Rooks with OVERWHELMING numbers at a base allow a single stray Con to blow away an incoming Rook Goon because they are more interested in being the first of five Rooks to chase down another fleeing Con.
ignored calls for help a a result of lack of flexibility. i estimate the dead rooks (and other coutries) in 5 minutes to be 10 or more. If a field needs help (e.g. 30 bishffies coming in) those that just died should be enough to defend that field, noone needs to auger to get there quick. but rooks prefer to fly their next sortie where they flew the previous one. this can either be because they died and need revenge or it went too well and a sequel is desired.
i usually spend a few minutes in tower before/between flights. and as the voice window shows i'm obviously not the only one. most times there are a few others in the tower, too. in a single tower there are usually to few to get something more or less organized airborn. a briefing channel, transmitted to every player on the ground might help. till then there's a simpler solution: everyone on the ground (not flying or driving or gunning), please switch to the field nearest to HQ, and let's discuss our next sorties in the tower.
missions are undersubscribed because noone wants to join/wait for a mission that wont succeed or even take place because it has to few participants. i've joined almost every mission i've seen over the last month. those 4 or 5 actually had a few players - most of them of the same squad and two or three others. mission channel was almost quiet, communication was probably through squad channel. maybe not always missions intended for public participation, i don't know.
i usually create missions every few days (need that time for frustration about the last mission to cease). on one (1) of those missions one (1) single other player joined. i've no idea what i'm doing wrong. maybe they're just too complicated, at least they don't consist of 30 jabo + goon. or maybe everyone squelched me.
noone gives updates about the situation because noone really knows what is going on. everyone can only see a small part of the world. unless everyone gives updates about what he's doing this won't change. but this is impossible with 200, err max 130 for rooks, players on channel 1. range and room channel can't help because they're limited in range and don't neccessarily reach everyone involved with the same objective. i've posted somthing about that in gameplay forum last week.
2) Why do we seem so unconcerned about the Strategic situation?
i don't think this is the problem. but i think the german translation of "team" (toll, ein anderer machts = terrific, someone else does it) is valid for rooks. it's hard to distinguish from lack of flexibility or communication, though.
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We have had this arrangement in the recent past, and as Big Dawg said, it will happen again.
The thing that got me pissed one night recently was hearing a dweeb from the bish challenge me to a duel because he saw my ...ahem.. arena rank :D Well naturally I let him have it :D
A shame too, he musta really worked hard to get his ranking under a hundred and had to challenge anyone to a duel so he could make it more important than it was its an old air warrior sickness :)
My point is, he felt okay about running on that way because he undoubetedly got such hi scores vulching outnumbered Rooks somewhere. The inflated scorews can really work on a persons mind and make em think they are more than they are. This is the only good thing about Rook ineffectiveness. What I have seen is Bish and Nits melt away when we are rolling. They cannot gang or vulch, so they fly higher. When they fly higher, they must come screaming down because that is where the Rooks are, usually down low killing their fields. Inevitably, when they come down, they die. :cool:
We just have to look before we act, gather our numbers to take a base and do it. Avoid the center of any map in AH; it only makes us targets for the other two countries. Cover our flanks and keep pressure on the nme, and above all, do it quickly! Why grab to 25k when you will dive down and fight at 7k?
Grab a gooney, and protect it to the target area, and then move on to the next target agreed upon.
Thses things will get us wins; I know because we have done them every time we win; there is no magic to it at all.;)
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missions schmissions, don't need no steeking missions to accomplish stuff. :rolleyes:
bases can be easily taken without the formality of a designed mission (altho' they can be fun, they're kinda hard to set up on the fly as tatical situations change fairly rapidly in MA - not to mention the rooks don't have the luxury of having 45 bajillion dweebs sitting around waiting for a mission to be setup).
personally i don't really give a doodly about the hamstard wheel capture the flag aspect of the game, shrug, maps are maps are maps, nor do i like to play little napoleon - but.....
i do have a clue about how to go about playing hamstard, and i occasionally suggest, yeah, suggest - in lil non-capped words - how hitting such and such base might ease pressure on some other base and tactical stuff like that. doesn't bother me if no one listens, and i find it amusing to see capslock screaming napoleons looking for cannon fodder for their ill-conceived strategies.
having said that, you'll often see me alone, deep in enemy airspace, popping goons, bouncing alting buffs who went to grab a cuppajoe, forcing 2,3,4 enemy fighters to deal with me instead of merrily alting toward the base they're heading to and the like (i hate flying around furballs simply because of the fps hit i take).
yeah i even do quite a bit of jabo work and will often have a city fairly much whacked and rdy to take if only 1 or 2 more ftrs and a goon were already on the way, before that base's defense gets organized, and these aren't bases way out on the fringes, but rather a base that if taken, would provide a foothold for further offenses or distract some bishknit offense at a rook base.
the best defense is a good offense. you won't see me hanging very close to our own front lines. get behind 'em, hit 'em en route while they're blissfully alseep in SA land.
the most amusing thing i see (every country does it) is a base being defended, you have a buncha friendlies come in with alt, dive down to kill the vulchers - that conga lline thingy - and end up getting whacked by more inbound baddies, and allowing those baddies to drop their ord in peace, and *then* whack the friendlies who got sucked in low.
if the enemy is already over the base, IT'S TOO LATE!!! ignore them, they're light, low and practically useless, stay up, over fly and catch the ones that are still en route. at the least, you'll force them to dump ord to engage you, or pop a buff before it has a chnace to drop, or even blow thru a buncha lazy/ignorant/blind escorts and pop goons (like i love doing).
by tying up the enemy *away* from their objective, you allow for better defenses to be formed, and pretty much put a crimp on that offensive.
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"...'Course, I forwarded this idea before- all strat guys go to Bishops, furballers to Rooks, etc. ...".
I like it! Furballers only in rookland. We'll never win a reset, but who cares. :)
bowser
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Hehe, :cool:
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i'm bish, since i started AH. from time to time i switch to another country on a daily base to fly with friends of the other side and to get a image of how they act.
the main difference i've seen is, that in bishland members overview the activities of the entire map and act in groups before it's too late ... to turn from the defensive into a offensive position.
another factor are the mission we do, which i admit are very effective and good planed.
last but not least ... it's my opinion ... is that we watch a bit more to eachothers "6" and help, if and run for help .. .even without being called and dont act selfish in most cases.
i hope HT is considering those country issues maybe by introducing the new maps.
airmess
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It is bound to dawn on you guys sooner or later that people behave the way they do in the arena because it is precisely what they want to do- and they have the venue in which to do it.
After that epiphany it might also become obvious HTC doesn't need to do anything about it, because as stated above people are doing what they want to do in an arena that allows it.
Then it is possible you might see if the MA is to have alternative it has to occur outside the MA. If it is a great idea for the masses, they will populate the arena. If not, they won't.
So many people have to legislate away their free time in an effort to quantify their fun. Let me give you a clue; if you have to check numbers to ascertain whether or not you are having fun, chances are you aren't. My opinion of course, but I never met a person focused on his stats that seemed to be having any fun. Talk about a rat race! Not to say stats are bad, but when your flying is all about the numbers I feel you've lost the joy in the game.
There is so much talk of late about HTC setting this kind of map up, HTC needs to force countries to be more strat-minded, etc. Why? ifthat'swhatpeoplewantedtheywoulddoitwithoutthebenefitofHTC'shelp.
So, how do you measure your fun? By checking your stats? By losing yourself for a few precious moments a few hours a week? By organizing the war in a chess-like masterpiece of bold moves, risking all for that glorious, crushing victory? Is it just to pal around with people of a common interest? Is it just to "kill stuff" and take out a little aggression?
There is no "useless" form of play (aside from cheating or playing outside the parameters established by HTC). It is fun for someone or it wouldn't be happening. As awful as it is for some to grasp this salient point, it is nonethless obvious and true.
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I see what you mean now Kieran.
Twins? ;)
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Well, I fly Rook when I'm on my own & numbers are realy sloped and I noticed one thing:
Walking into Rookland is like walkin in a ghost town, verry little communication on channel two, or Vox (compared to the constant blabering of nits I s'pose)
Of course CavemanJ talks loud enough for everyone, but that's another story :D
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Do this! Think of every war movie you've ever seen. Think about everything you know about real world fighter tactics. Think of every word that describes these things. Do a page search on this entire thread for any of them and you'll not find one single reference to the way real world fighter pilots win battles. You will find pieces of words e.g. wing tactics will bring up Widewing's nick but that's it bunky. The reason there are problems in Rooklandia and for that matter in Bish and Nitland is because very very very few people in here are willing to put the effort in to fly a simulation of military combat and use the kind of tactics which work in the real world. Wing Tactics, Discipline, Following Orders? Forget it, you're not going to force anyone who just spent a day working for some j.o. to take one more instruction from anyone. How do I know? I've tried. I put together a squadron whose charter says things like "always fly with a wingman" We're expected to return to base when a wingman is shot down to join up again. Wanna know how many times that happens? Does anyone know what kind of planning goes into a bombing raid? How many times do we arrive over target and nobody has any idea what the figgin base looks like, where the hangars are etc. etc. Oh yes, just like 12 O'Clock High or Memphis Belle. Lots of lack of planning.
That's it in a nutshell. No real life military tactics in a combat simulation. What's the solution? Find people who are willing to work towards a goal using real life tactics and let the others play anyway they want to. My feeling is that one squad made up of 10 disciplined pilots is worth a whole nation of unorganized rabble.
I keep searching for the Grail
Beeg
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Beeg, real world military tactics takes daily training. It takes expertise. That's why the USAF practices war and doctrine even if there's no war to fight. Pulling off a controlled air campaign is impossible given our constraints. The best we can hope for is a little cooperation, good communication, a few really good sticks in the formation.
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kieran... ever feel like you are saying something quite simple over and over and people are responding to something you never even said?
I agree with you.. everyone who feelds that rooks aren't the team spirited folks that they long to lead.... should change countries and leave us alone.
lazs
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Beeg,
Do this! Think of every war movie you've ever seen. Think about everything you know about real world fighter tactics. Think of every word that describes these things.
Are any of those words, "fun"?
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You are Coooooorrrrrrect! It would take almost real world training tactics. Who here would be willing to put in the hours necessary to develop that kind of discipline? Based on experience, not many but it's true if you're the kind of guy who is absolutely obcessed with being able to consistently pull off victories, you're going to have to find others willing to "join the air force and act as such" Otherwise, you're going to be one frustrated puppy. Let's not fool ourselves, it only takes one guy not to give us a "little cooperation" and we go off the deep end accusing the entire nation of not working together etc. etc. I know for a fact that during RJO nights we work quite nicely together and the results are evident. Amazingly, the very next day you're very likely to read a post from someone who didn't like what the RJO squads were up to. Bottom line. Individuals will fly like individuals and there is absolutely nothing, nada, zilch that we can do about it. If you're a latent Hap Arnold, find yourself a Curtis LeMay and form a squad of like minded invidividuals.
Beeg
Originally posted by Preon1
Beeg, real world military tactics takes daily training. It takes expertise. That's why the USAF practices war and doctrine even if there's no war to fight. Pulling off a controlled air campaign is impossible given our constraints. The best we can hope for is a little cooperation, good communication, a few really good sticks in the formation.
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"What's the Rook problem...?"
Too many years of close realations with Sheep. It takes a toll.....
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Originally posted by Beegerite
You are Coooooorrrrrrect! It would take almost real world training tactics. Who here would be willing to put in the hours necessary to develop that kind of discipline? Based on experience, not many but it's true if you're the kind of guy who is absolutely obcessed with being able to consistently pull off victories, you're going to have to find others willing to "join the air force and act as such" Otherwise, you're going to be one frustrated puppy. Let's not fool ourselves, it only takes one guy not to give us a "little cooperation" and we go off the deep end accusing the entire nation of not working together etc. etc. I know for a fact that during RJO nights we work quite nicely together and the results are evident. Amazingly, the very next day you're very likely to read a post from someone who didn't like what the RJO squads were up to. Bottom line. Individuals will fly like individuals and there is absolutely nothing, nada, zilch that we can do about it. If you're a latent Hap Arnold, find yourself a Curtis LeMay and form a squad of like minded invidividuals.
Beeg
Here's my view: If you wish to do your own thing, be my guest. However, if you wish to join in on field captures and organized multiple squad missions, then you should cooperate. Otherwise, please don't join us. When you get bored and leave, we have a gap that can't be readily filled. This is why I prefer to have squads assign goons to pilots known to be reliable. There's nothing more aggrevating than working you tulips off to cap a field and kill a city, only to find that the guy expected to bring the goon is tooling around in a Spitfire, vulching.
As to training like the military does, we can do that. However, I would guess that there are only a handful of us who have actually military flying experience, and can relate the training methods. I have been out of the military since 1979, so the training I received is probably different than current doctrine, and certainly different from actual WWII doctrine, in details at least.
Our squad will probably be organizing training nights specifically to prepare new members and to practice those skills that we individually know need attention. Likewise, it's important to train people how to think in a combat situation. This is certainly not second-nature, but is essential. Decision making skills are also important. Normally one learns this through mistakes. If we can allow those mistakes to occur in a safe environment, pilots learn without losing confidence. I believe that if several squads worked together in this, the overall performance of the Rooks would improve. And, if this isn't for you, no problem. It's your nickel, so to speak.
I also believe that the squads should make an effort to enforce their charter rules, within the bounds of reason and accomodation to the fact that not everyone can be there, nor do they always have the time to participate in long duration exercises and/or missions.
Success breeds success. If other Rooks see positive results of concerted squad cooperation, they may decide that they wish to participate too. The die hard furballers have a role too. Usually, they keep a like number of the enemy occupied. Therefore, we should consider that within the whole picture before casigating them for what they correctly believe is their right. However, I have no reservations about raising hell with those who do join in, but elect to pursue personal goals after committing to a mission or operation. You really can't have it both ways without incurring the anger of those who were depending upon you.
Yeah, the self appointed generals can be a pain in the ass, but so can the self-designated admirals.... But, that's a different post.
My regards,
Widewing
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And you would know this how OTTO? You started out as a Rook didn't you? It's ok, we haven't done that since you left!
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I will take the blame..... Its my fault :)
As I think FD and Dawg said... Must be RJO Time......
Circle the wagons boys...
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Allow a furballer to throw in here.
Most likely it is my interpretation instead of the actual intent, but it seems that some use the term "furballer" as a label akin to a leper.
Let me state, some of the best virtual sim pilots I've known thru the years are and were "furballers".
I'm a furballer. I enjoy that the most. I went thru the strat phase but eventually came back to simple air to air combat.
We are mindful of strat, even as transparent as it may seem, however, we don't usually engage in base capture for base capture sake.
We do play a role IMHO. Who better to engage defenders on a bar-cap mission to spoil your capture than a furballer?
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:cool:
Any time the Ghost want to fly any kinda Joint Ops mission the know where to find the NAZGUL.!!!!!!!!
we're always ready and willing to assist!!!!!
box
:D
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:cool:
Any time the Ghost want to fly any kinda Joint Ops mission the know where to find the NAZGUL.!!!!!!!!
we're always ready and willing to assist!!!!!
box
:D
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>>Too many years of close realations with Sheep. It takes a toll.....<<
Wrong! There are just so many ways of cooking sheep, then you get tired of it. Some of us are looking to expand our culinary experience and add something different to our menu. Them damn navy ships are notorious for having the best food on em but, some dweebs keep hidin em :rolleyes:
The Nitwits are into stealing our bases cuz they like sheep for wholy unnatural reasons :confused: (beats the hell outta me).
And the bishits want all the bases cuz they wanna pimp the sheep off to the Nitwits, and sell the sheep to Rooks (by the pound on the hoof).
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"And you would know this how OTTO? You started out as a Rook didn't you? It's ok, we haven't done that since you left!"
Aaaaaah! They said they would burn my files....!!!
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Point well taken Popeye. It is not fun in the sense we understand it but it is fun as in the absence of frustration. What I keep hearing is a lot of people saying "do it my way" instead of just reflecting on the simple fact I'm trying to put forth. This is a simulation of fighter combat. If you don't utilize the real world tactics used by succesful air forces you don't have squat. Would anyone here play a football game and not block, tackle or punt? Then how can we play a war simulation without at bare minimum perfecting wingman tactics? To me there is no way to play this game to win without using these tactics but at the same time recognizing that not everybody here wants to play my game. Some people just want to furball. More power to them. Leave them alone. I think it was Widewing either previously or in a following post that said something to the effect that the furballers even themselves out. Let's quit taking the inventory of all the Rooks at large and attempt to identify those that agree on working together and will become willing to improve on the necessary skills e.g. wing flying, mission planning and execution etc. These are the guys we have to get together with.
Beeg
Originally posted by popeye
Beeg,
Do this! Think of every war movie you've ever seen. Think about everything you know about real world fighter tactics. Think of every word that describes these things.
Are any of those words, "fun"?
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Wide, may I call you Wide? :D
The simplest kind of combat tactic is to fly with a wingman. Somewhere in "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering" there is a quote from some real life super ace to the effect that "a single man is a liability" At this the simplest level is where we fail. If we can't develop consistent team work with one individual, how are we going to do it with a squad or our countrymen. As I said in a previous post, I tried to force this issue in our squadron by setting the rule down that you must always fly with a wingman and return to base for yours or meet up with another squad mate in case of death or serious accident. This isn't an oppressive rule and most people would probably agree with it and in fact in our case we had to swear a blood oath that we would abide by the charter and other rules of similar ilk. Well, they weren't followed. Why? Here are some observations. You covered somebody one sortee and he didn't reciprocate the next. You saw a lone enemy buff and got buck fever, the cold sweats and palpitations and went off after it leaving your flight leader to fend off 2 nikkis all by himself. You were too busy or anxious to get into the game to be able to dedicate even one hour per week to practicing specifically with your wingman and working on being able to fly wing with other squad members.
Another rule I dreamed up was "Rookland comes first", that's why we're RRR. Just the other night I found myself in the center island while the main island was under attack. Why? Forgot our focus and this happens quite a bit e.g. you take off on a JABO mission loaded with bombs and rockets and upon seeing a distant enemy you drop ordance and attack a Nikki in your ME110 totally forgetting about your intended target and the fact that the Nikki is going to kill you. You should have run like hell for your target. Got that job done and then and only then play footsies with a Nikki. Doing any of the aforementioned things in real life combat would earn you a one way ticket to the firing squad. Where's our firing squad?
Last but not least is the leadership role you mentioned. I dreamed up rotating battle leadership on a daily basis to keep our squadron from being run by any one individual. Everybody gets an equal time to play Napoleon. Guess what? Nobody ever remembers or seems to be interested in knowing whose turn it is to run the show.
Guess it is a game.
Beeg
Originally posted by Widewing
Here's my view: If you wish to do your own thing, be my guest. However, if you wish to join in on field captures and organized multiple squad missions, then you should cooperate. Otherwise, please don't join us. When you get bored and leave, we have a gap that can't be readily filled. This is why I prefer to have squads assign goons to pilots known to be reliable. There's nothing more aggrevating than working you tulips off to cap a field and kill a city, only to find that the guy expected to bring the goon is tooling around in a Spitfire, vulching.
As to training like the military does, we can do that. However, I would guess that there are only a handful of us who have actually military flying experience, and can relate the training methods. I have been out of the military since 1979, so the training I received is probably different than current doctrine, and certainly different from actual WWII doctrine, in details at least.
Our squad will probably be organizing training nights specifically to prepare new members and to practice those skills that we individually know need attention. Likewise, it's important to train people how to think in a combat situation. This is certainly not second-nature, but is essential. Decision making skills are also important. Normally one learns this through mistakes. If we can allow those mistakes to occur in a safe environment, pilots learn without losing confidence. I believe that if several squads worked together in this, the overall performance of the Rooks would improve. And, if this isn't for you, no problem. It's your nickel, so to speak.
I also believe that the squads should make an effort to enforce their charter rules, within the bounds of reason and accomodation to the fact that not everyone can be there, nor do they always have the time to participate in long duration exercises and/or missions.
Success breeds success. If other Rooks see positive results of concerted squad cooperation, they may decide that they wish to participate too. The die hard furballers have a role too. Usually, they keep a like number of the enemy occupied. Therefore, we should consider that within the whole picture before casigating them for what they correctly believe is their right. However, I have no reservations about raising hell with those who do join in, but elect to pursue personal goals after committing to a mission or operation. You really can't have it both ways without incurring the anger of those who were depending upon you.
Yeah, the self appointed generals can be a pain in the ass, but so can the self-designated admirals.... But, that's a different post.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Don
>>Too many years of close realations with Sheep. It takes a toll.....<<
Wrong! There are just so many ways of cooking sheep, then you get tired of it.
"Cooking." Is this some CAF euphemism I never heard back in Flight Sim Brand X?
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We lost some good squadrons that used to fly Rooks. They all seem to have joined either the side that needs numbers the least, or the side that has enough tactical mission planners to wipe out 5 frontline fields in US AH prime time. Of course, this is entirley up to those squadrons and not something that can be criticized. However, if there was a time we need squadrons in Rookland, it is now.
Another thing is, as good as the Rampaging Rooks, JG1 Oesau, Dragonhawks, 412th and etc are, they lack a lot of manpower compared to some well-known squads of other countries that boast like 8~10 members on-line at prime time. 8~10 people is a enough number to consist a mission all by themselves(they become the tactical 'vanguard' in organized attacks), not to mention a big "core" that draws a lot of other people into organized attacks and defenses. I think the most I've seen on-line in Rook squadrons were about 4~5 people occasionally with the Dragonhawks or the 412th.
Thus, the Rook Joint Ops was born. There might have been other attempts simular to this one in other countries, but the recently conceived RJO boasted from tme to time one of the most successful forms of organized strategical moves with multiple squadrons.
But if you think it the other way around, the other countries haven't seen self-organizing movements simular to the RJO within their country because THEY DIDN'T NEED THEM. Why would one need a Joint Ops when a single squadron in a mission can match the numbers of the RJO with multiple squads combined? Thus, RJO can be translated as something born out of desperation in recent Rook events - loss of prestigious pilots, loss of squadrons, severe lack of experienced players and loss of overall numbers.. etc etc.
The RJO kicks into action when multiple squadrons are on-line in the Rook ranks with sufficient numbers, too. In other words, when there aren't many squads around in Rooks, no matter how 'equal' the number is, the gangbang heaps down on us, because it is so easy to shoot down Rooks like shooting a fish in a barrel.
Recently I've noticed a lot of names that I first saw at the Rooks pop up at either Bish or Knit. A lot of people who were asking "how do you turn the engine on" stuff, or some newbies with a bit of flying experience whom I used to fly with, give a few tips and pointers... or some AW 'refugees(as some one might call them)' who I met at the Rook side, then after a few weeks it turns out they moved to the Bish or Knit. They call their fellow 'refugees' newly introduced to AH to join in that country.
It's vicious circle.
Big squads move out, some old pilots quit, new people stack up at the other countries while the Rooks are suffering shortage of man power. We lose initiative, lose territory and get butts kicked... then the newbies hastily move to the "winning" side which in turn destroys the balance even more. Movements like the RJO, as much as I look upon them with great respect, is nothing but something that delays the inevitable mountain of gangbang which tumble down on us.
The result is something like this.
It is one thing when some countries are 'twice' in numbers when there are only about 50~60 people in the MA. Something like this is a totally different matter:
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You guys can post roster pics with the flyers online, all you want. It doesn't matter. Anyone can be shot down at any given time by someone. To sit here and continue to post these and feel sorry doesn't do the Rooks any good! Stop the complaining and get in the air and turn the tide in our favor. Last night, there were three MAJOR bombing runs originating from a particular enemy base and after the three were done, the airfield was smoking like an oil-burning diesel.
WE CAN'T CHANGE PAST, BUT WE CAN IMPROVE THE FUTURE ROOKS!!!!! All of the complaining Rooks are doing what the opposing forces want you to do, second guess yourselves, hesitate and even play with anger. All three will cause most or some to not have an edge up there.
Go NAZGUL and go Rooks
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Masherbrum, I agree with your optimistic sense of view. As you would argue and I would agree, the most important things are indeed an urge to action, not to talk.
However, whilst we Rooks will try to do the best with whatever we have for the moment, there are some things that just cannot be done with optimism alone, and requires a bit more exchange of opinions and analytical views in order to point out (and hopefully apeal to some good squads and pilots :) ) 'what exactly is up with the Rooks, lately.'
In simple words, no matter how we try, the numbers barrier is something 'outside' the game itself, that we cannot solve by our efforts within the game alone. I don't think anyone had the galls to say it out loud, but in simple truth, WE NEED HELP! :D
We can't do this with current Rook members. I've logged in only to find out things were exactly the same as previous day, previous week, and previous month. Swarms of red dots literally covering every of our bases.
We need conscious and voluntary decisions in part of many individuals and squads to rotate back to the Rooks to balance up the numbers. We need all the help we can get.
It's been months we Rooks have been doing the 'Rookahnistan', 'Rooraq', and 'Rookoslavia' impression, and getting banged by the 'super powers' all the time gets a little old after months ;) !
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Crying about it doesn't do ANYTHING.
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I don't see the problem... our squad looks for a field with some action that isn't too lopsided and we fight there. The real problem as I see it is a bunch of strat potatos all organizing little gangbangs all over the map so that no good fights exist a lot of the times but... that is not a country thing.
I don't want to be gangbanged by an "organized" group nor do I want to do the boring base capture /gangbang/fight over scraps thing. The lopsided aspect of "organization" is what causes 8 guys to chase and fight over one con not furballers.
lazs
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>>"Cooking." Is this some CAF euphemism I never heard back in Flight Sim Brand X?<<
Muhahaha! We eat em Runny! :D In flite sim ..... Bz landers would fricasee; boil; bar b cue; fry; poach etc sheep we caught and er ummm liberated from all of the Az and Cz fields we took.
The alternative was.... to perform nameless acts with em & on em as some of the other coutries did. I note that many of those former preverts are now flying for bishits and nitwits;)
And the debauchery continues. We must rid the arena of these Philistines! :D and enjoy the pleasures of purloined meats.
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>>Thus, RJO can be translated as something born out of desperation in recent Rook events - loss of prestigious pilots, loss of squadrons, severe lack of experienced players and loss of overall numbers.. etc etc. <<
Kweassa:
The RJO wasn't borne out of desperation at all; frustration perhaps but not desperation.
It is also a notion and activity which occured with regularity among B-Landers in AW in direct response to what other countries in that sim would do on Sunday nights. The other countries would gather all of the dweebs they could find and their numbers would dwarf the rest of the arena, and they would romp; usually all over the Bz cuz we were the best in the game (this is Full realism I'm referring to). So, the COs of each(Bz) squadron got together and had their pilits meet on Sunday nights. Short of it:
We stopped em cold:D, We then rolled over em and had some damn fine battles. Soon all sides came to expect a fun night in the FR arena.
Switch to AH:
My recollection is that once a majority of AWers came to AH; many of whom joined Rooks because we already had guys who made the switch here, and saw the imbalances, we decided to rejuvenate what we began over in that other sim. It worked there, so why not here? Because many former AW squads moved over intact, our COs got together and organized ourselves.
Recently there has been a lull in RJO activities, mainly due to real life considerations. It has been posted on this BBs that the RJO will resume soon. Once this happens, there will be balance again.
What other squads do is their business. Its the Rook squads that remain who are the backbone of the country.
We have enough prolific pilits to hold next to any and, our experience improves with every battle we fight.
Patience Masherbrun, it will all come out in the wash. I cite last night as an example. Rooks at one point had 70 pilits up and bish and Nits had over 100 each. The usual 2 way attacks were going on but, Rooks held em and began taking bases. I logged off at 10 p.m. EST and the score was dead even across all 3 countries. We get stronger each time we fight the other two at the same time. Rooks are never without a target rich environment :D
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Personaly....
I prefer to be the favorite target of my enemies, I like the fact we are ganged on 2 fronts regularly. This only Strengthens the Rooks. Our Pilots are forced to learn better tactics, hone the skills they need. Our Squads get better and better as functioning as a unit. our inter-squad communication improves and we learn to fly as a unit. Those that take a command learn to think on there feet. The Situation improves us all as a whole.
If I had a goal and a wish, it would be for the Rooks to always be the most hated and despised country by our enemies. Because if that happens, it only means we are doing well.
Some of the RJO actions Iv been involved in have even been more exciting than scenarios. The Level of imertion was incredible. Commanding 100 pilots is also something That everyone should try.
Another thing in support of Joint Ops nobody has mentioned. The Friendships that can grow out of working together. I have many friends in many squadrons. Something I value even more than a K/D.
ROOKS RALLY... FIGHT HARD... PERSEVERE... !!!!!!
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See below
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Originally posted by Beegerite
Wide, may I call you Wide? :D
The simplest kind of combat tactic is to fly with a wingman. Somewhere in "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering" there is a quote from some real life super ace to the effect that "a single man is a liability" At this the simplest level is where we fail. If we can't develop consistent team work with one individual, how are we going to do it with a squad or our countrymen. As I said in a previous post, I tried to force this issue in our squadron by setting the rule down that you must always fly with a wingman and return to base for yours or meet up with another squad mate in case of death or serious accident. This isn't an oppressive rule and most people would probably agree with it and in fact in our case we had to swear a blood oath that we would abide by the charter and other rules of similar ilk. Well, they weren't followed. Why? Here are some observations. You covered somebody one sortee and he didn't reciprocate the next. You saw a lone enemy buff and got buck fever, the cold sweats and palpitations and went off after it leaving your flight leader to fend off 2 nikkis all by himself. You were too busy or anxious to get into the game to be able to dedicate even one hour per week to practicing specifically with your wingman and working on being able to fly wing with other squad members.
Another rule I dreamed up was "Rookland comes first", that's why we're RRR. Just the other night I found myself in the center island while the main island was under attack. Why? Forgot our focus and this happens quite a bit e.g. you take off on a JABO mission loaded with bombs and rockets and upon seeing a distant enemy you drop ordance and attack a Nikki in your ME110 totally forgetting about your intended target and the fact that the Nikki is going to kill you. You should have run like hell for your target. Got that job done and then and only then play footsies with a Nikki. Doing any of the aforementioned things in real life combat would earn you a one way ticket to the firing squad. Where's our firing squad?
Last but not least is the leadership role you mentioned. I dreamed up rotating battle leadership on a daily basis to keep our squadron from being run by any one individual. Everybody gets an equal time to play Napoleon. Guess what? Nobody ever remembers or seems to be interested in knowing whose turn it is to run the show.
Guess it is a game.
Beeg
Sure, you can call me Wide, everyone does.:D BTW, Widewing comes from my friend and writing partner's company, Widewing Publications. Me, I'm 49 yrs old, 5'11", 168 lbs, anything but wide thanks to my continued participation in amateur boxing competition (Masters Division, a polite way of saying "old farts"). It keeps me trim and in reasonable shape. ;)
When the =Ghosts= fly as a unit (whenever two or more are online), we don't generally RTB if our wingman gets shot down. However, I myself will withdraw from the fight at the first opportunity to either wait for his return, or to cover his climbout from the field. Indeed, every situation has its own unique set of circumstances. Therefore, hard rules are not generally in place. Last evening, Hammer ran out of gas while we awaited the capture of a Bish field. He was forced to land on the runway, while two of us stood guard in the event the acks or hangers came up. Prior to that we had three aircraft up over this field. Hammer and Targut capped low, I assumed the high cap. This paid off when a P-51 raced in to attack our goon. My height (15k) allowed me to reach and kill the Mustang before he got a chance to do any harm. No one else was in position, or had enough E to get to him in time. This is how we fly. Each situation is evaluated and decisions made to best utilize our resources. I suppose that I tend to analyze situations more than most pilots. That's just my nature. I prefer to have a basic plan before committing to the attack. Countering this, we have a few who are willing to dive in regardless of the odds facing them. I admire their pluck, but would prefer that they be a bit more thoughtful. Nothing kills cohesion faster than rash attacks that result in unnecessary losses. I'm a firm believer that altitude determines the rules of engagement, and I hate to blow alt on a whim.
Another thing I prefer to avoid is everyone attacking from the same direction. I prefer to attack from two directions, in a staggered attack that catches the enemy in their break turns, at low energy state. Sometimes, sending in a second group behind the first will catch the enemy focused on the initial attack, and now chasing them. This is easy to coordinate with a disciplined squad. A well-trained squad can be devastating to the enemy. As I see it, the problem centers on finding people willing and able to fly with higher than normal levels of discipline. Now, this doesn't mean that we would expect this every sortie, not at all. But, we would expect it for squad nights and Joint Ops. God knows, I enjoy the freedom of freelancing, which is why I occasionally like to fly before my squadies log on. Usually, I'm the last or next to last to log off, so I can "do my thing" then if I wish. Not withstanding, once we team-up, individual goals become secondary to the "mission" needs. I am thinking about proposing that one night a week be designated as a non-squad night. In other words, squad members will not be expected to fly as a squad, but do whatever they desire. For example, I enjoy manning the 5" turrets on CVs. In fact, I have nearly 190 kills this tour manning those guns (I like to create my own personal "no fly zone"). So, I relish the opportunity to jump in one from time to time.
Since we only have 8 members this early in the squadron's existence, it is common to have an odd number of pilots flying, 3 or maybe 5. So, there will be some cases where there will be multiple wingmen. Nonetheless, there are some skilled pilots who thrive operating alone. These guys should always be section leaders. I would hate to waste their talents having them always guarding someone else. I would prefer that someone be guarding their six, which allows them to tear up the opposition, relatively unrestrained. But, this is the exception, not the rule. As I see it, this is the best way to harness the "lone wolves", and not see unit cohesion go to hell. I would, however, expect that he demonstrate some leadership by allowing his wingman plenty of opportunities and set-ups. Personally, I really enjoy drawing an enemy into an ambush. :D
It seems to me that a good squad will be able to balance air discipline and fun factor in a way that keeps everyone's interest despite differing ideas on what truly constitutes "fun". Sharing mission command is a good idea, allowing for everyone the opportunity to contribute and sharpen planning and decision making skills. Our CO, Hammer, is planning exactly that.
Yeah Beeg, it's a game, but we can still try to offer something for everyone. Whether we succeed is another matter. :D
My regards,
Widewing
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I just switched over from knights a few weeks ago....I got tired of the numbers. When I went knight (long time ago) they were always outnumbered so it goes in cycles...personally I hate being on the side with the biggest #'s.
As for team play, I honestly cant see much difference. Recently the knights had great numbers and a lot of good op's...it was hard to find a place they weren't attacking in mass. Truthfully, the side with the numbers will control the flow of the game.
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well said humble.. the side with the most numbers will hit in the most "organized" manner and ... they will have the excess numbers for using goons and fluffs making things even worse.
It's all so boring... come in low with jabo and fighters and come in high with fluffs at the same time. do it to fields that are outnumbered and then simply kill a couple of leantoo's and no more fighter opposition.. Takes a real military mind to get one of those going eh?
lazs
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Hi Kieran,
Originally posted by Kieran
The "problem" is we have a few Knight and Bishop generals in disguise playing the Rook side. Rooks just want to have fun- it's just taking a little longer for some of the guys to figure it out.
You actually made one of my original central points:
"Heaven help the poor Rook who tries to offer strategic advice, or tries to organize a defense - he gets hammered with "You're not the boss of me" and the aforementioned "Shut Up, I pay my money..." replies. We can actually watch the effectiveness of mass attacks from the other teams and then immediately respond to suggestions that we do the same thing with the same inane "I hate all forms of authority and organization replies"."
More effectively than I ever could, thanks.
- Seagoon
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...and you're making the "it's just taking a little longer for some of the guys to figure it out." More effectively than I ever could, thanks. ;)
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Maybe you guys need a new slogan. This "Come get Ganghumped by the Bish/Knight MA Juggernaught" just isn't getting the new recruits" Maybe you should try "Be all that you can be" The army had some success with that in the 80s. I'm sure others have some good slogan ideas for increasing Bish recruitment.
-Sikboy
I was looking for something else, when I found a few old number threads addressing in-game inbalance :)
In retrospect, I think the "Be all that you can be" really worked well lol.
-Sik
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Just hate it when somebody bumps a 2+ year old thread. Only thing worse is when somedody bumps it again to say how much they hate it. :p
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holy olden threads batman LOL
was about to say first how did i miss this thread?
then say yes rooks are buttheads lately, intentionally stealing kills, and junk like that. (yeah yeah i know supposedly every country does this, but the last week it has been the worst i have ever seen it.)
i currently have = assists as kills but was negative until yesterday as a fighter. i take a wing off a plane and as he is hitting the ground some rook comes blazing in shooting and popcorns the plane.
too many times to count (actually about 12 times this week alone). very frustrating to be a rook especially when you want to shoot down the guy next to you 1/2 the night.
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You guys COOK???!!!?? your sheep????? That's disgusting!!!!!!
Originally posted by Don
>>Too many years of close realations with Sheep. It takes a toll.....<<
Wrong! There are just so many ways of cooking sheep, then you get tired of it. Some of us are looking to expand our culinary experience and add something different to our menu. Them damn navy ships are notorious for having the best food on em but, some dweebs keep hidin em :rolleyes:
The Nitwits are into stealing our bases cuz they like sheep for wholy unnatural reasons :confused: (beats the hell outta me).
And the bi****s want all the bases cuz they wanna pimp the sheep off to the Nitwits, and sell the sheep to Rooks (by the pound on the hoof).
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Personally...I have to be in the mood. Some nights I feel like base grabbing, while others I dont.
Id say 70% of the time I'd be content finding 1 on 1s or 2 on 2s in the fringes. It seems that most of the time you have one massive furball base either attacking or being attacked, and a few small fires throughout the map.
I hate fighting for targets. Too many assists. Its almost like the plane has 100% damage allowed. The 1st guy hits for 30%, the second hits for 10%, the third hits for 20%, the fourth hits for 25%,and you come in and remove his wing..which you expect a kill, but since only 15% was left to damage from 100%, it was as if you hit for 15%, the remaining damage degated, giving the kill to the 30% guy.
That was just something I had been pondering with no bearing on the topic...just how it feels at times.
Organization is the key to getting people together to act as one. Make it seem bigger than it is..assign leaders, hold a briefing in the tower at a base..PLAN! Just saying" AF29 is next!", doesnt light the passions that a ww2 sim should be. You need to get people into it...pretend that bomber is full of people..not just a bunch of pixels you can just regenerate over and over again.
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may be certain times of day (160 players online) when your out numbered but when its primetime baby!(600 players online) rooks outnumber the rest 2 to 1:aok
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I've just read two threads that correctly note that we have some serious problems. Some of our older squads are even considering leaving, and personally I understand why. We have an almost terminal lack of numbers - even nits and bishes admit that there are certain times of day when the ratio is always against us. But that begs the question, why don't people want to be - or stay - Rook?
lol are you kidding me????
I left the Rooks last tour and probably will again this tour because of the simple fact that during US Primetime we have SOOO MANY FREAKING PLAYERS!
There is no fun in logging in, trying to find a fight, maybe finding one maybe not, getting into a fight, and then having 10 other Rooklings come along and cherrypick your kill away from you. Now dont get me wrong, a fights a fight, but if I fight for a kill, I want the kill.
Last tour, I flew Knit, along with my other squad mates. They won't argue with me when I say that at almost anytime we had no difficulty finding fights. Normaly it was a gangbang but hell, it was still a fight. There was plenty of red guys to go around and if you wanted to work on your S/A, there was no better place to do it than dodging 4-5 cherry picking dweeblings while turn fighting with 2 or 3 other Spits.
Simply put, Rooks not having enough players is not a problem. Infact I would and will encourage other squads to leave Rooks and go join the Knights first, or the bish second. We just have too many players during primetime.
Numbers during the day means nothing. People come and go, only play for 5 to 10 minutes then log off and go about their day. So one minute you may have a 20 player advantage, and the next you are down 20. Its always changing during the day. Its just something that you'll always have to deal with.
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"lol are you kidding me????"
"I left the Rooks last tour and probably will again this tour because of the simple fact that during US Primetime we have SOOO MANY FREAKING PLAYERS! "
LOL Before you answer check the dates.
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and so your trying to say to me that Rooks are lacking in numbers?
make your point seamn.
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UMMM yer talkin about nits?
Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi All,
I guess I'd like to have a discussion with fellow Rooks mostly to try to figure out what is consistently going wrong with our side.
I've just read two threads that correctly note that we have some serious problems. Some of our older squads are even considering leaving, and personally I understand why. We have an almost terminal lack of numbers - even nits and bishes admit that there are certain times of day when the ratio is always against us. But that begs the question, why don't people want to be - or stay - Rook?
I'm a compulsive underdog player, and I never switch sides, so the chances of my leaving are slim to none. But I can fully understand why others do. So here are my questions, and I'm hoping you guys can help me answer them:
1) Why do we seem religiously opposed to working together? On the odd occasion that someone posts a mission, it is inevitably undersubscribed some are even totally ignored even when they aren't stupid. Calls for help go ignored, calls to consolidate in one area are also ignored, calls for updates as to the situation at a given field are ignored. No country is worse than the Rooks about failing to provide escorts for Goons; I've actually watched Rooks with OVERWHELMING numbers at a base allow a single stray Con to blow away an incoming Rook Goon because they are more interested in being the first of five Rooks to chase down another fleeing Con.
2) Why do we seem so unconcerned about the Strategic situation? I have to hand it to the Bishes. Whenever their home islands are under attack they come together and work en masse to try to recover or defend home fields. WE ROOKS on the other hand, will actually continue to furball on center island while our home bases are being taken. Calls to the dweeb brigade for help and pointing out the obvious (hey guys we are about to lose X home base!) are inevitably greeted with "Shut up, I pay my money to play and have fun" replies. It never seems to occur to them that they aren't going to have much fun with no resources, no dar, and a 9 to 1 ratio against them.
Heaven help the poor Rook who tries to offer strategic advice, or tries to organize a defense - he gets hammered with "You're not the boss of me" and the aforementioned "Shut Up, I pay my money..." replies. We can actually watch the effectiveness of mass attacks from the other teams and then immediately respond to suggestions that we do the same thing with the same inane "I hate all forms of authority and organization replies".
So is it that we have an extraordinarily high percentage of selfish players, is there a vast bishnit conspiracy, or do we need a special arena created called "Useless Dweeb Furballers" with an 8x8 map and only 1 base?
And now, from the secret archives an actual Rook Country Channel conversation:
"Rook1: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
Rook2: Yes.
Rook1: But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
Rook2: Yes, I see.
Rook1: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
Rook2: Be quiet!
Rook1: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
Rook2: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
Rook3: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
Rook2: I am your king!
Rook3: Well, I didn't vote for you."
- Seagoon
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make your point seamn
If seamn means me, the point is the post you quoted and responded to is dated April 21, two thousand and two.
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Well, I guess then you are missing the point of what I am saying.
Rooks, RIGHT NOW, have just too many players, there are too many squads switching sides to come to the Rooks.
So the point I was making...
.....do you need me to go through it again?
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No need to go through it again whatsoever.
Granted I had to re-start reading you post several times due to your avatar but I understand what your opinion is of the current state of country numbers and its effects on your gameplay.
My point had nothing to do with your opinion.
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I blame it on Sikboy! Muhaha.:D
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi All,
We have an almost terminal lack of numbers - even nits and bishes admit that there are certain times of day when the ratio is always against us. Seagoon
tick tick tick tick tick BING
Attention: The troll rating system will officialy have to change due to this post. A mere one to ten scale will no longer suffice for such a brazen, outright troll. It is not the outright boldness of the fictional subject matter as much as the quality and quanity of the catch.
Bravo!
On the new scale of 1 to 25 , I give it a 25.
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Originally posted by Easyscor
I blame it on Sikboy! Muhaha.:D
Yeah, I take the blame on this one. I forgot that when you hit a thread like this, you usually post first, then read through the replies later. I wonder how many people responding today actually read the post that bumped this up after two years?
Point being, that once upon a time the Rooks were complaining about not having numbers.
-Sik
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#s win in most wars. They need to find an agreable way to ballance the war
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#s win in most wars. They need to find an agreable way to ballnce the war
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Originally posted by Jackal1
tick tick tick tick tick BING
Attention: The troll rating system will officialy have to change due to this post. A mere one to ten scale will no longer suffice for such a brazen, outright troll. It is not the outright boldness of the fictional subject matter as much as the quality and quanity of the catch.
Bravo!
On the new scale of 1 to 25 , I give it a 25.
Yep, we need a bigger boat. :)
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It's got nothing to do with Strat or Furball guys at all.
When things are going shi**y, you can see Strat guys attacking empty enemy bases, or Furball guys laying waste to a near-empty enemy base with hardly any defenders at all... while at the same time, a handful of people risk their ranks, scores, and frustration levels trying to hold off enemy advance at the opposite side of the terrain.
Furball or strat, whatever it is, when it's not where it is needed, its a waste of resource and waste of time.
It's dweebism vs duty.
One side creates hordes, go gangbanging other empty bases, milkrunning, steam rolling them. While the other side struggles hard to keep enemies from running free into our own lands.
The one thing I've learned about MA folk, is that when they say "I want a fight", it's really a big fat lie.
Most of them mean, in truth, "I want an EASY fight".
If he's really looking for fights, kills, and action its all there - on the opposite side of the 'horde', in the barren lands where handful of people are defending against the enemy version of the horde.
In truth, most of the MA folk don't really want a fight or air combat. They want easy scores and kills achieved.
They avoid fights, never put up enough force to meet enemy force, and go milkrunning empty bases.
The ones who really do all the fighting, is the ones who dare to fly in the face of the enemy at whatever the odds, because he knows he has to.
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#s win in most wars.
The problem isnt numbers. I've seen plenty of times where rooks still have a good 10-20% player advantage and still gettin their butts kicked.
Rooks, ya need to stop furballing and go along with the flow of missions. Or talk your squad into running squad missions to suppress or capture bases.
I put up missions just about every night but we only get about 5-8 people in em. I used to say missions win the wars. Its not the missions, its the organization of the country as a whole that wins the resets. Squads need to communicate better, more missions need to be put up, and mostly, us rooks need to stop furballing sortie after sortie and cooperate with a wingman, squad, or country. If your favorite plane isnt in the mission, screw ya. If you would like your plane to be posted in the mission, let the Planner know and ya might get it.
And stop worrying about your rank, period.
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As a recent convert from Bish (as AKWarp) to a lone wolf flying as a Rook, let me offer my obeservations....
Numbers: Each team tends to have number superiority at certain times of the day. Bishops consistently have numbers DURING THE DAY HOURS. Rooks consistently have numbers DURING THE EVENINGS (which is when most people play). Knights have number superiority at apparently random times.
Gang banging: Every team seems to think there is a conspiracy by the other two teams to gang bang them. Not true.
Team work: Sorry guys, the Bish have the Rooks beat in this department...not all the time, but most of the time (at least during evening hours). This is because the Bishops are USUALLY playing heavy defense to the superior rook numbers. They have evolved into a teamwork heavy side out of necessity.
Rooks work together well SOMETIMES. But regardless of your team, the biggest problem lies in what everyone thinks is the priority and what each person thinks should be the goal of the team. Not everyone wants to "win the war" (or cares). Some just want to furball, some just want to pad scores and rank. Some just like GV battles and so forth.
Rooks definitely SEEM to have a problem looking at the map and making good strategic decisions based on the current situation (but then again, that assumes they care about the war as a whole).
The last several days have been frustrating for me as a Rook because I personally like "winning the war", so my focus tends to be on strategic goals, defending fields against raids and taking enemy fields. It is very frustrating to see one of our bases being nailed and giving alerts on country channel and no one cares...this has happened a lot over the past few days. Not really a problem if the rooks as a whole don't particularly care, but we certainly shouldn't gripe about it then if that's the case.
Everyone (all teams) really need to stop and think about it when someone starts making note of such things. I don't really think anyone is trying to be a "general", rather just trying to relay important information about the fight and trying to insert a sort of urgency in a limited communication system (i.e. text). It's funny, when a con approaches HQ, everyone starts noting it and a response is sent up without hesitation, but we don't do that when one of our fields are being mauled...I just find it interesting, that's all.
The team as a whle should come to some sort of conclusion about certain strategic goals and situations if we really are interested in winning the war. The current map for example; the east coast is vitally important, lose it and you usually lose the war, yet when it is being over run, a lot of folks prefer to just furball at 44. I simply can't understand that.
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I agree with Warp. The peninsula (or flanking position) is key to a reset. However, when the rooks do take advantage and succeed...instead of pushing further north, we start to furball at bases that matter very little to anyone or the situation.
I dont understand why you would concentrate heavily on all fronts...and not try to push one way or another. If a furball is moving closer to a friendly base, who gives a ****. They still have to get a goon in and form a considerably high CAP for them to take it. And thats just one base. Why not set up organized strikes on bases that are the most vital, and the least defended???
And just because one posts a mission, doesnt mean you are off the hook of joining it. Its not "someone else's problem" to join up, its your's too.