Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on April 22, 2002, 08:10:36 AM
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Hey we are always talking about American politics, lets talk about the French :)
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PARIS, April 21 — In a major upset not predicted in weeks of opinion polling, the extreme rightist Jean-Marie Le Pen qualified today to face President Jacques Chirac, a conservative, in the runoff for the French presidency next month.
The 73-year-old Mr. Le Pen, who once called the Nazi gas chambers "a detail in history," benefited from the huge field of candidates that split the vote, an apathetic electorate and a wave of anti-crime fervor to edge past Prime Minister Lionel Jospin.
With 99.33 percent of the vote counted, Mr. Chirac had 19.6 percent of the vote, Mr. Le Pen 17 percent and Mr. Jospin 16 percent.
Mr. Le Pen's victory over Mr. Jospin was described by leaders of the left and the right as a "political earthquake." Until today, Mr. Chirac was expected to face Mr. Jospin in the runoff on May 5. Polls showed that once the field of candidates was narrowed to these two, Mr. Chirac and Mr. Jospin were neck and neck in the race.
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You guys want to borrow Pat Buchanan :)
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I think they're beyond Pat. They need Lyndon LaRouche.
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Bailed them out of two World Wars and they owe us the most debt for both and they wouldn't let the F-111's fly over their prissy airspace. Screw em'!!!!! Give us our money!!!
Hey Chirac!!! The Maginot line was the best thing to happen to the French.
Jay
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I'd like to hear what Straffo has to say on this subject
I'd be worried to live in a country where so many people vote those extreme-right wackos... :eek:
Chirac will win, that's for sure, but this has been a serious warning...
Daniel
PD: Qu'est-ce que c'est passé dans la France, Straffo? À quoi est-ce que ces gents qui ont voté Le Pen pensent? :rolleyes:
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I'd be worried to live in a country where so many people vote those extreme-right wackos...
Only about 30 % participated in that election,so I see no cause for alarm.It`s not the majority of the french who voted for Le Pen.
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I wonder how the French felt when Goldwater was nominated in '64? Or when Wallace split the vote in '68. Putting Nixon in the Whitehouse?
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Originally posted by Dawvgrid
Only about 30 % participated in that election,so I see no cause for alarm.It`s not the majority of the french who voted for Le Pen.
Yep, and that has been a hell of a warning... hope they all go vote! My experience in Spain is that the radicals ALWAYS vote.
Daniel
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CyranoAH we get that here to. Our scum are called Democrats. :p
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Our scum are called Democrats.
(raises eyebrow) damn. (checks popular vote, last presidential election)
leseee... that would make this country roughly, hmmmm... better than half scumbags?
LOL!
(sorry.. just had a passing thought about the flordia scumbags)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
(raises eyebrow) damn. (checks popular vote, last presidential election)
leseee... that would make this country roughly, hmmmm... better than half scumbags?
LOL!
(sorry.. just had a passing thought about the flordia scumbags)
Well that all depends upon where in the country you go :)
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whelp, i guess i'll try and avoid the places where the scumbags don't.... err umm.... 'can't' count.
(opens hagstrom, draws big red 'X' on florida)
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At every elections, on the first row, voters to show their unhappyness toward the government used to do a "protest vote". They vote for the worst candidate and not for the usuall two right/left leaders.
Well, this time, they got a lesson about democracy and the responsability of being able to vote.
I love it!
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Yeah..."Because every vote counts" :rolleyes:
(sure it counts, together with millions of other votes, effectively making that one vote about as important as a flea on a water buffalos arse, somewhere near an unknown waterhole in some God forsaken, povertry stricken, civil war infested african nation)
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Its nice some French are waking up to fact that Communism and the overely charitable immigration policies arent such great ideas. And yes I consider France to be more or less Communist/Socialist in her internal economic behavior. Franky I just dont get the uproar caused in Europe when one of these right wingers wins something, toejam the EU bastard commienazis actually imposed sanctions on Austria because her people democratically elected somebody who was politically incorect into a middle postion in government. Maybe this EU commienazism isnt such a hot idea after all if totally attacks national iddependance and self determination. And do they so boldy encourage such self destructive immigration policies, cursed be the day when we have a Europe with few "Europeans", and this is a real possibility.....
WTG 17% of the French electorate! Hopefully we'll see more of this brave behavior. My sister just returned from visting friends in Denmark and she tells me many are outraged at the permissive left wing governments and that rational sensible right wing parties are gaining wider and wider support. This is a good sign for a weak, tired fearful and overly feminized and popsiclefied pointless Europe.
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lol Grunherz - criticizing 'overgenerous' immigration policy. Oh the irony!
As for calling that Austrian fella 'Politically Incorrect' - how would you describe another famous Austrian, by the name of Hitler? 'Radical right-winger'? 'Overall good egg with an overstated capacity for racial hatred'?
And Le Pen is the usual racist in a suit that seem to be popular these days - or at least made popular by voter apathy. If you had even 50% of Frenchmen voting, we would have never even heard of him.
And do they so boldy encourage such self destructive immigration policies, cursed be the day when we have a Europe with few "Europeans", and this is a real possibility.....
lol
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We allredy know you are an racist/nazi Grunhertz, please move along... Where you molested as an child Grun?
Regards.
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Its nice some French are waking up to fact that Communism and the overely charitable immigration policies arent such great ideas. And yes I consider France to be more or less Communist/Socialist in her internal economic behavior. Franky I just dont get the uproar caused in Europe when one of these right wingers wins something, toejam the EU bastard commienazis actually imposed sanctions on Austria because her people democratically elected somebody who was politically incorect into a middle postion in government. Maybe this EU commienazism isnt such a hot idea after all if totally attacks national iddependance and self determination. And do they so boldy encourage such self destructive immigration policies, cursed be the day when we have a Europe with few "Europeans", and this is a real possibility.....
I will be silent,cause against such words of wisdom all discussion
is in vain,,,,,,,,,:rolleyes,,,,what alot of BS
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And once again the PC hysterics emerge from the walls. Ready to strike down on anyone foolish enough to break their unspoken code...
Morons
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1. Get your facts straight Dowding, nearly 70% of the electorate cast their vote in the first election. (source: TIME magazine)
2. Last time I checked, democracy actually meant it was allowed to vote for the guy you wanted in office.
3. I thought it was allowed to have an opinion without being accused of racism, or to have people imply that you are a victim of sexual abuse (and Maniac, exactly how low is that?)
4. More people voted for the extreme rightwing candidates Le Pen and Bruno Megret (who broke away from Le Pen's national front after a personality clash with the leader) than for the sitting president. That can't simply be written off as a protest vote.
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There must be something wrong with him, djust trying to figure out what it is... Ive sick of his racist crap on this board.
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From now on anyone who ever accuses me of racism will then be accused of acting out homosexuality, witchcraft, child molestation, and of an allegiance to the devil.
All "racism" has come to be in today’s society is an easy attack and way to shut people up, it's no different than the witchcraft hysteria in early America, the early 1990's calls of child molestations everywhere and the stupidity that led to the Spanish inquisition! So be what you are and call me whatever you want.
As for what I said. I do think the European immigration policies are overly generous. Not overly generous in that they let people but in how they treat them when they get there. They simply have too many overly generous and wasteful benefit policies and that draws leeches that only suck the social support system and contribute nothing. Not all immigrants are such people but you have to be fool to not see that many if not most are. People are not stupid they will go where they see the easiest chance for support; this is now the case in crazy wasteful socialist European countries.
Now on to race and "Europeans". Yes I want Europe to remain European I don’t want it full of Cambodians and Moroccans and Vietnamese much in the same way Moroccans, Cambodians and Vietnamese didn’t want their homelands to be taken over by Europeans. I like Europe and her history, it is my history a part of me and I will damned if one day some Cambodian living off of social support in Italy one day says his Cambodian history is part of Europe’s. I have no problem with multiculturalism in America, in fact its one of our strengths here, but Europe had a definite culture and definite history and definite ethnic history as well. None of what I say is meant to support a xenophobic and closed off hateful Europe. It is meant to support a strong, purposeful and European Europe with strong foreign policy and end to this internal weakness and socialist popsicle worldview.
And frankly if that conveniently makes me a racist or whatever IN YOUR MIND then so be it, that’s how I feel and that’s it.
But remember you are all homosexuals, witches, child molesters; communists on a black list and worship the devil. I can prove that just as well as you can your accusations
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Hey, closet racist! Why do you care??? you dont live here anymore!!!
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Now on to race and "Europeans". Yes I want Europe to reamain european I dont want it full of Cambodians and Morrocans and Vietnamese much in the same way morrocans, cambodians and vietnamese didnt want their homelands to be taken over by europeans. I like europe and her history, it is my history a part of me and i will damned if one day some cambodian living off of social support in italy one day says his cambodian history is part of europes. I have no problem with multiculturalism in America, in fact its one of our strengths here, but europe had a dsefinite culture and definate history and definate ethnic history as well. None of what I say is meant to support a xenophobic and closed off hateful europe. It is ment to support a strong, purpuseful and european europe with strong foreign policy and and end to this internal weakness and socialist popsicle world view.
,,,,and once again you show big wisdom about the internal affairs in Europe,,,,,especially about all the emigrants from Vietnam and
Cambodia:D ,,,,,who`s the moron,,,HORTLUND?
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Now I’m no longer an open racist, now I'm a closet racist... Wonderful- maybe you area closet homosexual.
Anyway there is something "wrong" with me. You are absolutely right Maniac I am not a normal "white guy".
Basically I'm sick of all the race politics. I'm sick of all the accusations of racism thrown at people who disagree with the PC roadkill. It wont work on me because guess what I'm not a racist. I don't hate people because of race. Sorry to disappoint you. I am angry though very angry at how race is used against me and people like me. I’m angry in a similar way, as the civil rights activists of the 1960s were angry at how race was used against them. I'm not a racist because I disagree with race politics. As for my stance on Europe and why I care, I care because more European people better begin to care. Our history identity and ethnicity has been so oppressed and attacked from within and out while all the worlds other groups have pushed for more and nationalism and self-determination. I think those of European descent should begin to see the light and do the same. We are no different than any other group and we should start looking out for our group interests much the same as others are. However this is today considered racism, because of course racism as a word has become almost synonymous or at least strictly associated with whites, yes were "white people" BTW. Of course racism cannot be committed by others, only reverse-racism. The implication being we invented racism.....
Honestly I understand that people have trouble understanding me. That's ok I have new ideas and a different viewpoint that many people find uncomfortable and difficult to understand so its easiest to just call me a racist than to deal with and confront a new reality.
Basically I’m sick of people like me being accused of racism while I have never hurt anyone in such a way during my life. It no longer applies to the vast majority of whites. It's not damn 1950 any more.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Now I’m no longer an open racist, now I'm a closet racist...
He was wrong. You seem pretty open about it.
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Why?
Let me ask you a question? The word racist has become meaningless so let me ask you this way montezuma.
What is a "non racist"?
Define the characteristics of a "non racist"?
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Originally posted by Dawvgrid
,,,,and once again you show big wisdom about the internal affairs in Europe,,,,,especially about all the emigrants from Vietnam and
Cambodia:D ,,,,,who`s the moron,,,HORTLUND?
I dunno...the guy using lots of commas in his sentences?
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I am angry though very angry at how race is used against me and people like me.
Please give me an example on how it have been used against you...
. Our history identity and ethnicity has been so oppressed and attacked from within and out while all the worlds other groups have pushed for more and nationalism and self-determination
Please give me an example, because i dont "identify" with this quote above..
. That's ok I have new ideas and a different viewpoint that many people find uncomfortable and difficult to understand
Please, you are not saying _anything_ NEW, sorry to burst your bubble.
Basically I’m sick of people like me being accused of racism while I have never hurt anyone in such a way during my life
By saying "i dont want (insert ethnical group here) to live in Europe" is indeed racist...
Regards.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Define the characteristics of a "non racist"?
To start, someone who isn't concerned about the declining racial purity of France.
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Purity? No.
Identity? Yes...
I will love the day one of the brave PC Europeans comes to this BBS and starts crying because some aspect of their culture was deemeded offensive and will be suppresed from now on. It will e great.
However you have yet to define "non racist"?
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However you have yet to define "non racist"?
An person who dont give an damn if ones neighboor is black, white or yellow?
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Still no definition......
And all my are neighbors are asian and hispanic by ethnicity, I don't mind, I love my neighbors, they are good people.
You still don't get it and fearfully cling to comfortable postion of calling me a racist.......
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And all my are neighbors are asian and hispanic by ethnicity, I don't mind, I love my neighbors, they are good people.
And yet you dont want em living in europe? im confused... Please explain...
Repost of the post that you dodged :
quote:
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I am angry though very angry at how race is used against me and people like me.
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Please give me an example on how it have been used against you...
quote:
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. Our history identity and ethnicity has been so oppressed and attacked from within and out while all the worlds other groups have pushed for more and nationalism and self-determination
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Please give me an example, because i dont "identify" with this quote above..
quote:
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. That's ok I have new ideas and a different viewpoint that many people find uncomfortable and difficult to understand
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Please, you are not saying _anything_ NEW, sorry to burst your bubble.
quote:
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Basically I’m sick of people like me being accused of racism while I have never hurt anyone in such a way during my life
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By saying "i dont want (insert ethnical group here) to live in Europe" is indeed racist...
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And once again the PC hysterics emerge from the walls. Ready to strike down on anyone foolish enough to break their unspoken code... Morons
I was asking:who`s the moron me?,or Grunherz who thinks the majority of emigrants coming from Cambodia and vietnam.
But you tend to think im a moron,since I dont agree with his wiev`s,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,correct?
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Sure!
I see Europe and America as quite different. American culture has always been a culture based on integrating people of different cultures and now races into a new thing. America is very unique in that way, very unique. It is not an ethnically based nation, not like pretty much every other nation in the world- it's culturally based- you act American so you are American.
Europe as an area is, as are most "nations" ethnically based. Let me give you an example. This weekend I had a discussion with a Chinese friend of mine (surprised? :)). It had to do with what it meant to be an American. So posed this argument to him:
If I (a white guy) were to move to China, decide to live there, and learn Chinese and become a permanent resident and citizen of China. Then I met you on the streets of Beijing- and you asked me where I was from, and I answered, "I'm Chinese"- how would you (Chinese guy) feel.
His answer: Awkward.
Now I asked him if he was to remain in the US and settle here errantly and become a citizen and so on. Then if we met on the street in San Jose and I asked him where he was from and he said, "I'm an American", how would I feel.
His answer: Ohhh!
(With a genuine look of sudden revelation on his face!)
And that’s what’s different between America and really the rest of the world- it readily accepts other people because its culture and identity are based on these inputs and differences, not a shared ethnic history like very other nation on earth.
Now as to what I want in Europe. I certainly don't want a Europe for Europeans and with Europeans only- but I certainly want a strongly European Europe. Europe has a strong and genuinely rich European history just like every other ethnically based nation in the world and I want it to stay that way. I want a European Europe, a Chinese China, and a Japanese Japan just as I want a Mexican Mexico and do so. All our cultures are important and they should be preserved and preserved as independent ideas. If we were to all just attack and suppress parts of other peoples cultures that "we" (whoever we is) find offensive than all our cultures will disappear and be replaced with an indeterminate wishy washy mass of nothing with no heritage or culture or character. A very boring one world with no variety......
As for European immigration issues, I think ant political group that provides such lavish benefits to anyone who wants them and shows without seriously stated expectations of contribution up is simply nuts.
No as to how I come across, I understand how what I say and perhaps to a large or larger extent how I say it can make people very comfortable to call me a racist. It's a part of I initially come across in the current time. All I can say is this:
I am different, my ideas are new and unusual and you will begin to understand me only when you accept, in your mind and heart, that I am not racist.
If you come from this perspective you will begin to see what I mean more clearly.
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As for me saying Cambodian or Vietnamese or whatever they were just random examples. I never meant to say they were the main immigrant poulation of Europe. My understanding is the main immigrant popultaions are African, Middle Eastern and now some more Asian.
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As for how "race issues" were used against me and how european culture is attacked well just read up on fashinable intellectual ideas of today.
How about this. First day of one of my history courses. Proffesor says. "I hate the British and Europeans and the first thing I would do is abolish Columbus day because he was a racist and a genocide instigator"... How lovely and objective...
As for race being used aginst me. Something like this: "You're whit you cant understand what it's like to feel racism because only white's are capable of it". This was something said to me in person and apparently quite popular in society today.
There is a couple.
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Europe has a strong and genuinely rich European history just like every other ethnically based nation in the world and I want it to stay that way
Stay that way? i dont see it changin... Will European history get lost due to immegration, no i think not.
If you had posted your last post first, then perhaps your views would have been recived differently. But you posted alot of "knee-jerk" reaction stuff earlier.
Why shouldnt Europe strive for being more "american" multi-national? i thought you liked America... Why should Europe be different?? because of Europes history? is that what you saying?
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Ahh the immigrant who wants to cut back on immigrants. Why do the words pot, kettle & black dance in my head?
I have no problem with multiculturalism in America, in fact its one of our strengths here, but Europe had a definite culture and definite history and definite ethnic history as well.
Any bets on whether the guys who were in America before the Europeans showed up reckoned that they "had a definite culture and definite history and definite ethnic history as well"?
Yes I want Europe to remain European I don’t want it full of Cambodians and Moroccans and Vietnamese much in the same way Moroccans, Cambodians and Vietnamese didn’t want their homelands to be taken over by Europeans.
Hmmm would the original Europeans please stand up? So the Moors are out - which begs the question: does the Grunherz "European" include the Jews & Gypsies - or are they yet more non-european undesirables, 'oppressing and attacking from within and out European history identity and ethnicity while all the worlds other groups have pushed for more and nationalism and self-determination'? How about the Turks? The EU is considering their membership - but they aren't in the EU - but then lots of countries in Europe aren't in the EU. How about Russia - is that Europe too?
How far back are we going too?
The "European" languages supposedly have a common root with Indian languages - and if we go back a bit further we're all supposed to be African originally aren't we?
If I recall correctly, the neanderthals lived in Europe for quite a long time before our ancestors showed up. So perhaps there should be a neanderthals only policy?
If we go back 0.01% of the planet's history what do we find? Ooops - sorry no humans at all.
So really Europe should have a no humans policy to best preserve its "history, identity and culture" against immigrant culture - after all it had no humans living there for 99.99% of the time. Viva Purity! :rolleyes:
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First of all,I haven`t called you a racist.
But I think you are wrong,when you claim that it´s people like
Le Pen,who`s gonna "save" Europe.
Im gonna ask you directly "do you agree with Le Pen and his politics".
And do you know that the same guy called the deathcamps in
Germany "a minor historic detail".
There his been several incidents where he actually attacked his political opponent.
Is this the guy you wants to represent France.
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Yep I do that knee jerk reaction garbage too much; it's one of my greatest faults as a person. If I hurt anyone I apologize.
I do like America, a lot in fact. However I don't think the entire world should be like America. There should be some variety from country to country.
As for immigration diluting European culture that’s a touchy subject for sure. My fear is more on the basis of the newcomers disrespecting Europe’s culture, not learning the languages, then also demanding Europeans change and suppress aspects of their cultures because the immigrants don't like it. This is where Europe (and the whole world) differs from America the most. They have specifically defined cultural ideas tied to ethnicity and a national/cultural/group/tribal identity. America largely has a cultural identity.
I want the world to preserve it's distinct cultures, this is what makes it interesting.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
whelp, i guess i'll try and avoid the places where the scumbags don't.... err umm.... 'can't' count.
(opens hagstrom, draws big red 'X' on florida)
Hang
We Florida Republicans can count just fine
It was the Florida Dumocrats that had issue with the numbers. Given the average FL dumocrat didn't finish public high school, makes perfect sense .... but thanks for lumping us all together :rolleyes:
The way I see it, the entire country owes us hard nose FL Republicans. If it was just about any other state, we'd have goron and his slick willie rejects trying to run the show. ... can't image.
As for France, sounds to me like they need someone that far right to bring the average somewhere near the middle from the far left it's been at for a while now. Seems a large portion of the french pop thinks so too :)
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No I don't support Le Pen directly. He has serious problems with historic fact and seems just like a version of Pat Buchanan. The holocaust in WW2 is not a minor point in history.
However I'm very happy that a good number of people in France are seeing the problems associated with their permissive social and economic polices and of course on some permissive immigration issues.
Anyway he won't win and the events serve as sign of things to come and hopefully a swing to more reasonable/balanced policies in the future. He is an extremist but a lot of people are drawn to that so I'm sure more reasonable people will emerge to appeal to a wider section of society along these lines.
And -dead- I have no idea what the point is of anything you just said. What’s the point of saying that we all come from Africa? Of course we do..... Humans evolved in eastern Africa about 3 million years ago and spread across the world? Thanks for that simple fact of science what’s the point?
And yes European and Indian languages are closely related, so what? That means we share a common history? Does that mean Britain was right in colonizing India? No!
What about the Turks, they are a bridge between Europe and the Mid East, they are a part of that common history. What about them?
And yes the Moors invaded and occupied Spain and added many features we commonly associate with Spanish culture today, and then they were kicked out by the Spanish.
So what?
Oh as for my criticism of overly generous European immigration policies being hypocritical because I’m an immigrant to the USA.
Well just ask how easy it was for us to get here and just how much social support and welfare the US govt gave our family upon arrival, not to mention the guaranteed housing and money.....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Humans evolved in eastern Africa about 3 million years ago and spread across the world? Thanks for that simple fact of science what’s the point?
Actually that is just a theory. <-- a FACT
Personally I think man is created, not evolved. <--Personal belief
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That's fine, I happend to believe in evolution. :)
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My condoleances :)
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He is an extremist but a lot of people are drawn to that so I'm sure more reasonable people will emerge to appeal to a wider section of society along these lines.
Those kind of politicians,have through history talked to the inner
"devil" in people,especially to those with low or no education,
they are easy manipulated.
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
I'd like to hear what Straffo has to say on this subject
I'd be worried to live in a country where so many people vote those extreme-right wackos... :eek:
Chirac will win, that's for sure, but this has been a serious warning...
Daniel
PD: Qu'est-ce que c'est passé dans la France, Straffo? À quoi est-ce que ces gents qui ont voté Le Pen pensent? :rolleyes:
I'm extremely upset and sad by this event ...
30 % of the french choose to not vote at ...
and le pen has been helped by the fact whe got 16 candidates for this election and so the vote where kinda diluted among all candidates
If you look at previous election lepen just got has many vote as previoulsy but and the left and rigt party got the same number of vote but as I said before "diluted" among all candidate
In fact I expect to see a 85% Chirac 10% lepen for 2nd tour
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its nice some French are waking up to fact that Communism and the overely charitable immigration policies arent such great ideas. And yes I consider France to be more or less Communist/Socialist in her internal economic behavior. Franky I just dont get the uproar caused in Europe when one of these right wingers wins something, toejam the EU bastard commienazis actually imposed sanctions on Austria because her people democratically elected somebody who was politically incorect into a middle postion in government. Maybe this EU commienazism isnt such a hot idea after all if totally attacks national iddependance and self determination. And do they so boldy encourage such self destructive immigration policies, cursed be the day when we have a Europe with few "Europeans", and this is a real possibility.....
WTG 17% of the French electorate! Hopefully we'll see more of this brave behavior. My sister just returned from visting friends in Denmark and she tells me many are outraged at the permissive left wing governments and that rational sensible right wing parties are gaining wider and wider support. This is a good sign for a weak, tired fearful and overly feminized and popsiclefied pointless Europe.
Grun you outbound here.
It's not funny at all
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Originally posted by Hortlund
And once again the PC hysterics emerge from the walls. Ready to strike down on anyone foolish enough to break their unspoken code...
Morons
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1. Get your facts straight Dowding, nearly 70% of the electorate cast their vote in the first election. (source: TIME magazine)
2. Last time I checked, democracy actually meant it was allowed to vote for the guy you wanted in office.
3. I thought it was allowed to have an opinion without being accused of racism, or to have people imply that you are a victim of sexual abuse (and Maniac, exactly how low is that?)
4. More people voted for the extreme rightwing candidates Le Pen and Bruno Megret (who broke away from Le Pen's national front after a personality clash with the leader) than for the sitting president. That can't simply be written off as a protest vote.
As usual you show your lack of knowledge.
And I don't think you are able to analyse how the French have voted for the last 20 years
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Originally posted by straffo
As usual you show your lack of knowledge.
And I don't think you are able to analyse how the French have voted for the last 20 years
Look, before you start rambing insults again in semi-english, please do tell me what exactly is wrong in my post, instead of making sweeping, pointless remarks.
Go on Straffo...you tell me what is wrong with the 4 points I posted.
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My point was that all "Europeans" are, when considered on a long enough timeline, immigrants.
So whose culture do you defend and whose do you seek to prevent "'oppressing and attacking from within and out European history identity and ethnicity"?
In order for you to hold that people "are" European, you should clarify & define the term European - ie What are your criteria for a person "being" European? It would help if you answer these questions:
1) What areas of land "are" Europe?
2) How many generations of a person's family have to have lived in the above defined "Europe" for them to qualify as "being" European?
3) Are any "ethnic"/"racial" groups exempt from being considered "European" despite having lived there for many generations? In which case please provide some criteria for "race" or "ethnic" group. What makes a person a particular "race" or "ethnic" group? How can one distinguish between "races"or "ethnic" groups?
Next I'd like you to clarify your definition of "European" history/culture.
1) How far back in history are we going?
a) All of history? [Remember that 99.99% of Europe's history involves no people at all, so all humans are "just off the boat" as far as "Europe" is concerned]
b) Some of history? If so which bits?
2) Much of recent "European" culture & technology has come (or should that be "immigrated"? :D) from other cultures outside Europe, which replaced the "European" culture or technologies. E.g. Christianity, alchemy, gunpowder, algebra, paper... the list is pretty substantial. Should they now be prevented or banned to retain a more "European" culture? What are the criteria you would use to decide which non-European technological and cultural innovations can be considered as being allowed to "become" European?
3) Much of European history has been profoundly affected by these non-European technologies & cultures - should that history be discounted as "being" non-European?
While all these questions? Well I am intrigued by your position. And to hold a proper argument we should define the terms used.
For my part: I posit that there are no original, true Europeans, and there is no solely European culture. The people of Europe, much like people everywhere, are "mongrels", and the history and culture of Europe, much like everywhere else, is a history and culture of successive immigrations and mixes of many different cultures.
Trying to keep a purely "European" culture is like trying to keep a pure mixed fruit juice.
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Two notes about inmigrants:
- In Europe, most of them are mainly doing all the work that we, elitist europeans, dont want to do. As a curious example, here, in Spain, we are "importing" inmigrants (most of them from Argentina) for our ground forces and even to populate some towns. It is funny to be at Buenos Aires and see some TV spots of the spanish army calling for recruitment ;)
- All USA citizens are inmigrants or direct inmigrant descendants (except sioux and similars).
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Originally posted by straffo
I'm extremely upset and sad by this event ...
Maybe France has to be upset that this readical LePen was lucky that the left parties were devided in so many parts that Lionel Jospin got 1% less votes.
(Also its bad that in France the counting-systems are far better working than those during the US-president-elections when they had recount the votes again and again without getting a clear result :D :D )
But for one thing we all could repect the french:
They showed in an impressive way how shocked and ashamed they were when they had to face the fact that LePen was successful.
And by this - in my opinion - they got their honor back and surely have no reason to be ashamed any longer.
The LePen-nightmare will end with the May 5th, when the french will vote in favor of Chirac.
The only sad thing is that the political career of an honorable politician like Jospin was destroyed by creature like LePen.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Look, before you start rambing insults again in semi-english, please do tell me what exactly is wrong in my post, instead of making sweeping, pointless remarks.
Go on Straffo...you tell me what is wrong with the 4 points I posted.
You don't deserve any answer
Stay in your bubble and stop pissing me with your pseudo knowledge about how we vote in france
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All this arguing about racism is getting in the way of a perfect opportunity to bash frogs.
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babek- we DID get a clear winner but the Democrats just didn't like the results.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
babek- we DID get a clear winner but the Democrats just didn't like the results.
Now who is the revisionist?
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*sniff* *sniff* He started it! :p
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-dead-
You are pointless again. By your reasonoing there are no "native" populations anywhere, only in a small patch of east Africa by the great rift valley where a small batch of humans first evolved.
As for how to distinguish between ethnic groups, well thats stupid.
Human races are like dog breeds and there are physical differemces between the races based on evolutionary adaptations to evolution. Or do you think it's just a coincidence that some people have dark skin compared to light skin, or that some people store fat in different parts of the body more efficiently, or that some people tend to be taller than others. Or that asians have "double" eyelids, if you even know what that is?
What areas of land are Europe?
I find this insulting! All you who ask for attacks on Europe just read -dead's- babling here. Europe starts from the mdeiteraninan in the south, atlantic in the west , arctic in the north and raches far into russia in the east. At some point russia becomes part of asia, which has iots own borders, just like every continent.
What does intecultural trade of goods and ideas have to do with my distate towards ridiculosly genereous imigration policies that only invite abuse. I see no douality in my idea that Europe should remain european and that it can get ideas from other parts of the world. I just dont want a Europe to become like the USA with no really unifying history any more.
"For my part: I posit that there are no original, true Europeans, and there is no solely European culture."
Again I find this insulting and offensive.
By that rational Europe does not exist, why do you hate europe so much as to deny its existance?
Oh I see you live in Hong Kong are you Chinese? Well you know what there are no real Chinese you are all really Europeans who were once Africans who have no real culture and no history. So is it ok if the British colonize again and take over rest of China. And surely the Japanese must come back too, since you had such a fine old time with them in past.......
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OK Grun,
This is what I'm seeing from your posts.
1. America's multiculturalism is a good thing.
2. Europe's seperate cultures is a good thing.
3. The USA has no unifying history.
4. Europe will lose its unifying history if they lose the seperation of races that exists there today.
I sense a conflict here.....what do you think?
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honorable politician like Jospin
*cough* ;)
Grun, sorry am not going to read your babble, I have a good book & I'd rather go for that when I have time to read a novel.
Steve, Shall I offer you to insult Straffo in French perhaps ?
And yes, if your opinion looks like GRUN's I WILL call you a racist (not the Opinion that bothers me, the CONTENT of that opinion does)
The reaction today is pretty big & I give a thumbs up to the frogs . I've always found most of them to be, errrmmmm..."nationalist" would be too strong a word here, "France-Only lovers" would fit perhaps :D
& Yes, we lost a verry good opportunity to make fun of the frogs again :D
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America, as a political nation, is different because it doesnt have a single unifying ethinic history. Every other area in the world does. Why is this so difficult to grasp? urope is no more seperatist than China or Japan or Mexico or africa or whererever, in fact it's less so. I just want Europe to stay european, why is this evil an idea? People all over the world want to maintain thir cultural identity and it's seen as good thing why on earth is it seen as racist and bad if a European wants the same? For gods sake why are you all threatened by this idea so much? Why are you so afraid to stand up for our culture just like everyone else in the world stands up for and is proud of theirs? Why? Why? Why do you hate yourselves so much?
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Heheh, better frog then Walloononian, Walloonish?
F@#$ing Belgians buy Canadian Beer Companies.:mad:
WTF is a Walloon anyway??
;)
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Originally posted by straffo
You don't deserve any answer
Stay in your bubble and stop pissing me with your pseudo knowledge about how we vote in france
Well, if I dont deserve an answer, then I dont think I "deserve" any attacks from you either.
And the "pseudo knowledge" isnt mine, the analysis about the french election I quoted in my post (The one where I demonstrated my lack of knowledge, and where I should realize that I am not able to analyse how the French have voted for the last 20 years)...that part of my quote actually is a direct quote from an article in TIME magazine.
Go check it out at http://www.time.com, then do us all a favour and squelch yourself.
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Steve Hortlund has spoken.
For it is he.
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The greatest French engineering marvel? The Maginot Line.
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I find pretty smart to use an english journal as a reference for french internal politic ...
you're kidding or idiot ?
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Oh for Cod's Sake....just elect Jerry Lewis and be done with it!!
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Attention all Europeons (and Canadians):
Quit arguing amongst yourselves and go back to bashing America and Israel :)
This has been a public service announcement::::
next time I start a threead about France I am leaving you guys out of the discussion
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Question:
I am half-Russian half-Ukrainian.
Can you call me European? Or just one of the "asian horde of jewish bolsheviks"?
Another question, a serious one now:
Is it true that Le Pen attracted communist electorate too?
Here in Russia communists are considered "conservative"...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
America, as a political nation, is different because it doesnt have a single unifying ethinic history. Every other area in the world does... snip..... I just want Europe to stay european, why is this evil an idea? ...snip....
Why? Why? Why don't you see the racism in your post? You may have a great deal of love for all of your fellow man GH, but your ideas are racist by definition.
When you say you want Europe to stay European, you mean caucasion right? Thereby making it impossible to include any other race. Would a black African be forever unable to be considered a Frenchman? Would a person of Phillipino decent always be seperated from a Spaniard....for generations?
The American experience has everything to do with our COLLECTIVE HISTORY and nothing to do with our race. We are Americans because we choose to be Americans. If someone chooses to be a Frenchman, or a German, or Swiss they should have the same opportunity, and it should have nothing to do with race. It should only have to do with the embrace of a Country's philosophies and laws, and a knowledge of the common experience of that Country (history).
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Originally posted by Boroda
Question:
I am half-Russian half-Ukrainian.
Can you call me European? Or just one of the "asian horde of jewish bolsheviks"?
Nah, we just call you guys "the commies", or "russian bastards".
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-dead-
You are pointless again.
Quite so. When was arguing with you anything else? ;)
By your reasonoing there are no "native" populations anywhere, only in a small patch of east Africa by the great rift valley where a small batch of humans first evolved.
Ding! We have a winner! Show him what he's won, Bob.... Yes he's won a copy of "How to win friends and influence people".
As for how to distinguish between ethnic groups, well thats stupid.
If ethnic groups do truly exist then one should be able to define who's in them. Otherwise it begins to sound suspiciously like ethnic groups are fictious or mere semantics or something.
Human races are like dog breeds and there are physical differemces between the races based on evolutionary adaptations to evolution. Or do you think it's just a coincidence that some people have dark skin compared to light skin, or that some people store fat in different parts of the body more efficiently, or that some people tend to be taller than others. Or that asians have "double" eyelids, if you even know what that is?
So how do you tell these "races" apart? - every individual human is different in some respects, even twins. Where do you draw the line? - Red hair, Blonde hair, Brown hair, Black hair - different races? Green eyes, blue eyes, grey eyes - different races? Seems like a lot of different races live in your unified "Europe". Dog breeds are defined and created by people, and purity is judged often according to fashion, especially subjective views of judges at dog shows. But there are many more mongrels than pedigrees, despite humans artificially keeping a "breed" going. Indeed dogs, left to their own devices, don't seem to care at all what breed they, their pack, or their mates are.
What areas of land are Europe?
I find this insulting! All you who ask for attacks on Europe just read -dead's- babling here. Europe starts from the mdeiteraninan in the south, atlantic in the west , arctic in the north and raches far into russia in the east. At some point russia becomes part of asia, which has iots own borders, just like every continent.
If you're not sure which bits are "Europe" or where it ends, just say so. Don't be embarrassed: I don't know either - that's why I asked you. :D If it's any comfort there appear to be no nice lines on any maps indicating which bits are "Europe" either, so it appears this question has the cartographers stumped too. :D
What does intecultural trade of goods and ideas have to do with my distate towards ridiculosly genereous imigration policies that only invite abuse. I see no douality in my idea that Europe should remain european and that it can get ideas from other parts of the world.
I fear I may have been confused by some of your invective: "As for immigration diluting European culture that’s a touchy subject for sure. My fear is more on the basis of the newcomers disrespecting Europe’s culture, not learning the languages, then also demanding Europeans change and suppress aspects of their cultures because the immigrants don't like it. This is where Europe (and the whole world) differs from America the most. They have specifically defined cultural ideas tied to ethnicity and a national/cultural/group/tribal identity." And this: "As for my stance on Europe and why I care, I care because more European people better begin to care. Our history identity and ethnicity has been so oppressed and attacked from within and out while all the worlds other groups have pushed for more and nationalism and self-determination. I think those of European descent should begin to see the light and do the same."
Having read this I started pondering on how "non-European", cultural factors like Christianity affected, perhaps even defined "European" culture and history. And then I wondered at what point "intecultural [sic] trade of goods and ideas" becomes an 'oppression and attack on "Europe's" history identity and ethnicity'? Perhaps you can enlighten me.
I just dont want a Europe to become like the USA with no really unifying history any more.
What unifying history? There is no unifying history... it's all a big mix of several different cultures, some of them non European... Have you ever actually studied European history? It's a vast roller coaster ride of fights, fights and more fights. Fights over religion, fights over land, fights over "races", fights over "nations". And loads of invasions. Very unifying. :rolleyes:
"For my part: I posit that there are no original, true Europeans, and there is no solely European culture."
Again I find this insulting and offensive.
By that rational Europe does not exist, why do you hate europe so much as to deny its existance?
Now how could I hate something if I don't think it exists? However:
I merely deny that there is a set of people who "are" original Europeans or that there is a solely "European" culture. You have yet to offer me any proof of either of these existing... indeed you even appear vague as to where "Europe" is.
To rephrase and perhaps clarify it for you: soil is real, people are real. Europe is a social fiction.
Oh I see you live in Hong Kong are you Chinese? Well you know what there are no real Chinese you are all really Europeans who were once Africans who have no real culture and no history. So is it ok if the British colonize again and take over rest of China. And surely the Japanese must come back too, since you had such a fine old time with them in past.......
Hehe you gonna show this bit to your "Chinese" friend?
But seriously - who are the "real Chinese"? There are 56 "ethnically" different groups in China, and China's history again is one of invasion by "foreigners" - Mongols, Manchus and Tibetans to name a few.
If the British, Americans, French, Japanese, Germans or indeed the Mongols want to colonize China again they only have to bring bigger guns, same as last time. Same as every invasion everywhere. Not sure I see the point of that bit, though. I presume you merely hope I shall find this insulting and offensive - I apologize for disappointing you.
So to recap:
You're not sure which bits of land are "Europe". You won't say which people are "Europeans". You can't tell me how many generations living in "Europe" will make you a "European". You can't offer useful criteria for telling who's a member of what "race". You won't tell me which "races" are "European". We're not sure how long back in history we're going, in order to define who is a native of "Europe" and who is not. Adopting some bits of other cultures is OK, but adopting other bits isn't, although the criteria for defining which bits are OK to be adopted and which bits are chipping away at "European" culture remain a mystery.
So there's this indistinct land full of undefined people who, by dint of having lived there for an unspecified period of time, are considered to be "native". This place is in grave danger from undefined people from other (presumably) indistinct land masses turning up and destroying an unified and defined culture (that you can't seem to define, and appears to be far from unified), which is in part already from other indistinct land masses. And you seriously want people to worry about this? :rolleyes:
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-dead-
You believe Europe and European people and European history and European history don't exist....
There is no point to continue arguing with you. You simply hate Europe to the point of denying its very existance!
Boroda of course you are European....
Midnight:
American is not an ethnicty, European is! Just like Chinese is an ethnicity. Thats why America is different.
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Do you guys think that any white person who is aware of their ethnicity is a racist?
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Ah I forgot to ask one question:
What language do these unified Europeans with their unified culture speak?
I'm guessing Esperanto.
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What unifying language does China speak? There is no language called chinese and a common language to china.....
By your words you are trying to destroy the very existance of Europe as a area of the world, why am I even bothering with you?
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What unifying language does China speak? There is no language called chinese and a common language to china.....
Err, putonghua?!? (literally translated: "common language" putong=common hua=language). You might know it as mandarin.
Not that I'm suggesting that China is unified either. Far from it. I am an equal opportunities skeptic - all nations and ethnic groups are dubious, nonsensical groupings - "granfalloons" if you will. "If you wish to study a granfalloon, just remove the skin of a toy balloon." :D
Here are the official PRC ethnic groups:
Manchu, Korean, Hezhe, Mongolian, Daur, Ewenki, Oroqen, Hui, Dongxiang, Tu, Salar, Bonan, Yugur, Uygyr, Kazak, Kirgiz, Tajik, Ozbek, Russian, Tartar, Tibetan, Moinba, Lhoba, Qiang, Yi, Bai, Hani, Dai, Lisu, Va, Lahu, Naxi, Jingpo, Blang, Achang, Pumi, Nu, De'ang, Drung, Jino, Miao, Bouyei, Dong, Shui, Gelo, Zhuang, Yao, Mulam, Maonan, Jing, Tujia, Li, She, Gaoshan, Han.
Strangely there's no mention of Chinese. Chinese can't be a nationality rather than an ethnicity, surely?
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Grunherz, so are you saying is that Europe should remain "ethnically pure"?
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Okay....way too much to read in this post...
I just wanna put in my 0.02
I think what has happened in the French election was similar to what happened in Ontario, Canada when the NDP were elected as the provincal government about ten years ago.
Basically, a large number of people voted on an emotional "spur of the moment" basis, trying in their own small way to make a point.
Problem was...waaaaaay to many people did the same thing and when everyone woke up the next morning lo and behold they had "accidentally" voted the NDP into power.
Four years later (and almost a doubling of the provinial debt) they were chucked out in a landslide.
I'm really not a huge fan of the French, as Straffo knows, but I wouldn't want to think that they are racists at heart. They didn't like me over there because they thought I was American though...which is somewhat xenophobic in my opinion.
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No Tahgut, not ethincally pure like lets say Japan which is 99.6% Japanese ethnicity. But I dont quite want europe to be multicultural like the USA, I want it to have traditional european cultures and languages. If thats offensive or insensitive to you than so be it. I think its important to preserve that.
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But the culture and the language have NOTHING to do with ethnicity.
To be a "proper" Frenchman, do you need a big nose and white skin? Or do you need to speak the language and know and be part of the history of your Country.
Now imagine 200+ years from now. All French peoples are semi-brown and semi-oriental looking. They still speak French, and still can name the Louis' up to number XVI. They still make excellent wine, and they still lose every war (except to the Italians). Are they less French?
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Here's a little info on the origins of the "99.6% pure" Japanese ethnicity I dug up for your entertainment and edification:
One theory has been that waves of immigrants from China and Korea quickly displaced the Jomon people and their culture in about 300 B.C. They ushered in the Yayoi period, which emphasized rice-paddy cultivation and whose people looked more like today's Japanese.
In the last decade, a growing body of skeletal, DNA and linguistic analysis has suggested that modern Japanese are the product of both Jomon people and the Yayoi immigrants from China and Korea -- and perhaps other population infusions as well.
Satoshi Horai, a scholar, argues that modern Japanese are a mix of about 35 percent Jomon and 65 percent Yayoi. That would mean that Japanese are descended mostly from Chinese and Koreans but also have an important Jomon component.
[Source: The New York Times / by Nicholas D. Kristof - April 11 1999 ]
full text (http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/tp_jap.htm)
Even the emperor of Japan now admits to being part Korean:
The Emperor's New Roots (http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,625427,00.html)
Mmm a 99.6% pure mix of 65% immigrants from Korea & China, 35% the Jomon people & a possibly a few others.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
From now on anyone who ever accuses me of racism will then be accused of acting out homosexuality, witchcraft, child molestation, and of an allegiance to the devil.
Well that seems to apply to all the Catholic priests willing to enagage you in the merry-go-round of your logic.
AS for the French Govt, they lost any (which was very little anyhow, I still remember Mururoa nuclear testing) respect I had when I heard they are considering building an airport over the somme battlefield. Hopefully some common sense will be shared amongst the french. Hopefully Straffo is the norm, not the exception.
Tronsky
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If you disagree with the left you are a racist, bigot,and homophobic. These tolerant liberals can accept murder rape, pillage and arson and defend it. But if you disagree with them and utter words they find politically incorrect they will try to destroy you personally and professionally. I think maybe the founders of this nation had experienced this type of thing before and the 2nd amendment to the constituion was born.. hmmm
Oh that's right the left doesn't like that one either ? I think the right to bear arms is a symbol of freedom that the left just can not tolerate. For those in Europe and almost every other country for that matter, the right to defend yourself and your property is gone. Tell me this, when that right is gone are you really a free man? I think not at that point you exist at the whim of some politician that may want your daughter or your wife or you land.
OH BTW the French split there vote on the splinter trotskyite parties that promised to outlaw private property. So have no fear they did not get the choice they have now because the majority are conservative, quite the contrary.....
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These tolerant liberals can accept murder rape, pillage and arson and defend it. But if you disagree with them and utter words they find politically incorrect they will try to destroy you personally and professionally.
If this is troll bait I appluade your Elfenness. If you are serious I just have to say I never once defended pillage.
:rolleyes:
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Didn't the left split there vote in France among a couple of trotskyite parties and the green party. Voting there conscience so to speak and figured they would vote for the Socialist in the run off? As I understand it one of the splinter parties ran on a platform of outlawing private property? Sounds like the late USSRs idea of,TheNewMan, private property denotes capitalist greed.... hmmm Oh well our green party is communists too.