Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on April 22, 2002, 01:14:17 PM
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I recently read an article decribing the huge effort made in 1948 to ferry supplies and food to Berlin, sometimes called "The Berlin Airlift" or "Operation Vittles", due to a Soviet blockade attempt. I am curious as to how this may have been reported in the USSR.
Thanks
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Like this":
The poor downtrodden Berliners were attempting to pare down their weight in a glorious attempt to show their joy at the proximity of the wondrous virtues of Comunist thought when those EVIL westerners foiled their attempt by flying in tons of food to corrupt the defenseless Berliners. Down with Capitalism!!
That should be pretty darn close! :D
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I am curious as to how this may have been reported in the USSR.
The fact that you even ask the question how shows that you have no idea how authoritarian regime works - and I envy you in that.
Why would they ever have reported to us that any airlift took place? It's not like we could have learned of that from foreign newspaper so that a communist one had a reason to counter "capitalist lies". Arguing any point, especially if you are in the wrong is asking for trouble. Much easier to keep the people ignorant.
That's what Iron Curtain was all about.
miko
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I appreciate your envy Miko, but I am not as naive as you think. I said "may have been reported". I fully expected one of the possible answers to my question to be "huh?".
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huh?
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midnight dont like ruuskis methinks :)
a interesting thread and nice bbs
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=110767
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
midnight dont like ruuskis methinks :)
Don't know why you would say that? I am honestly curious about the differences in historical reporting. I like Boroda just fine.....for a commie pinko....:D
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Don't know why you would say that? I am honestly curious about the differences in historical reporting. I like Boroda just fine.....for a commie pinko....:D
Well isn't that the communist calling the commie pink!
:D
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Originally posted by Udie
Well isn't that the communist calling the commie pink!
:D
Pot...kettle...etc...etc.:D
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:D
Just kidding of course, you're no commie :) Just had to get that in there hehe. I'm a real fun guy after I've been home for about 15 min ;)
meep!
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I heard something about it, and I'll try to find some info about it in books from Soviet time.
Miko, let me remind you about one of Kozma Prutkov's wisdoms: "Nelzya obyat' neobyatnoe".
It wasn't in school history books, as well as many episodes of Civil war in Russia never appeared in the US school books. I never was interested in this events. There are much more interesting episodes for me, for example - Russo-Japanese war.
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One explanation I read was that the USSR changed the currency in E. Germany, and used that as an excuse to restrict travel to & from the allied sector of Berlin.
This was an obvious attempt to isolate Berlin from West Germany. The Soviets did not interfere with the airlift, because they never thought it would succeed.
edit - This is hardly comparable to the civil war in Russia, as this little piece of history did involve both the USSR and the USA.
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Well, the 1948 story when he GDR was founded, based on Soviet occupation zone is well known. The story repeated later in Korea, and you know the result...
Again, as usual, you accuse evil Russians of something they never did. Berlin was divided into occupation zones (extremely stupid from my POW - why let the "allies" control what we fought for?), and it was the "allies" problem how to supply their anclave.
IMHO, the very existance of West Berlin was a quiestion of good will from Soviet side.
The Berlin highway was an unbelievable thing. My Grand Dad was a moblie missile-technical base commander in E. Germany in late 50s - early 60s. Several times he had to arrest american "tourists" who drove in the middle of a convoy that carried nuke warheads.
Civil war in Russia involved US occupation forces in Archangelsk and Far East, and resulted in uncovered stealing of Russian weapon and gold stocks. We still pay for weapons stolen by US "expedition corps". I bet you never read about it in your history books.
Huh... If only Allied nations decided to crush bolsheviks in 1918, but they preferred to simply plunder what possible in Russia :(
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LOL Baroda!
I don't know what's worse... you offhandeldly dismissing the fact that Russia had West Berlin completely surrounded and was not allowing any vehicles in or out...
Or you offhandedly discussing how many times someone interupted a procession of trucks hauling nuclear missiles.
No wonder we won.
AKDejaVu
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Post war Germany was divided into three sections, the Allied part was controlled by the United States, Great Britain and France and the other part by the Soviet Union. The city of Berlin, although located in the eastern Soviet half,was
also divided into four sectors --West Berlin occupied by Allied interests and East Berlin occupied by Soviets. In June 1948, the Soviet
Union attempted to control all of Berlin by
cutting surface traffic to and from the city of
West Berlin. Starving out the population and cutting off their business was their method of gaining control.(and I'm POSITIVE that the Russian history books conviently left part out Borodo! ;) ) [/i] The Truman administration reacted with a continual daily airlift which brought much needed food and supplies into the city of West Berlin.
This Airbridge to Berlin lasted until the end of September of 1949---although on May 12, 1949, the Soviet government yielded and lifted the blockade.
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Well, you accuse Soviet side of not letting "allies" build a military beach-head in the middle of the Soviet occupation zone?!
I really wonder why didn't they shoot down that "airlift" planes. Stalin indeed was the man of his word.
Deja - you missed the most annoying fact that I dismissed: USSR did have nuclear weapons in East Germany since 1950s, while Nikita said it didn't.
A colonel arresting a foreign citizen who takes pictures of a military convoy and handing him to civil authorities - it's definetly the most outragous violation of human rights.
Hehe, the best anecdote from my Grandad was when his commissar was a commander of a convoy with a nuke warhead, heading to meet the operational/tactical missile unit to fuel and arm them. He got lost. Probably took the wrong turn. No kidding.
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Not accusing, just comparing viewpoints on history. The fact that Berlin was split, and that part of it remained part of West Germany is not in question. That was decided by Interallied treaty. (And I would like to hear more about the American expeditionary force during the Civil war in Russia, but lets do that on another thread.)
"When the order of the Soviet Military Administration to close all rail traffic from the western zones went into effect at 6:00AM on the morning of June 24, 1948, the three western sectors of Berlin, with a civilian population of about 2,500,000 people, became dependent on reserve stocks and airlift replacements. It was one of the most ruthless efforts in modern times to use mass starvation for political coercion... "
Here is a link (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/peopleevents/pandeAMEX49.html) to the quoted site. This is a PBS site, hardly a jingoistic source for news or history.
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Originally posted by Boroda Well, you accuse Soviet side of not letting "allies" build a military beach-head in the middle of the Soviet occupation zone?!
I don't believe anyone accused the U.S.S.R of doing that... afterall... we built one later anyways. I believe the soviets are being accused of trying to starve an entire city into submission...
I see very little room for defense on that point.I really wonder why didn't they shoot down that "airlift" planes. Stalin indeed was the man of his word.
LOL! Gonna go out on a limb and say they didn't shoot down the airlift planes because they weren't quite ready for WW3.Deja - you missed the most annoying fact that I dismissed: USSR did have nuclear weapons in East Germany since 1950s, while Nikita said it didn't.
Any idea why he had to say they didn't? Translate:
We are going to ask you a question to which we already know the answer. How well do you lie?A colonel arresting a foreign citizen who takes pictures of a military convoy and handing him to civil authorities - it's definetly the most outragous violation of human rights.
Where did this come from? Sounds to me like you were all ready to adress this issue before you even posted it. :rolleyes:Hehe, the best anecdote from my Grandad was when his commissar was a commander of a convoy with a nuke warhead, heading to meet the operational/tactical missile unit to fuel and arm them. He got lost. Probably took the wrong turn. No kidding.
I'm sure very few people doubt this.
AKDejaVu
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Stalin indeed was the man of his word.
LOLROFLESHAHAHHAHALMAOESTEMAR ICONQUECARAJOSECREE!!!!!!!!
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Bah. Scurvy commie bastids tried to starve berlin into submission.
only the daring and determination of a very few voulenteer intrepid air transport pilots, tossin hershey bars out the windows on approach to templehof stymied the evil madman dictator stalin and his ravenining godless minions from raping and pilliging the entire half starved and bombed out city.
well.. that and SAC's threat of nuclear anniliation by waves of american b36's and b29's if the commie salamanders even nicked the paint on a transport bound for berlin..
did i hit all of borodas key knee-jerk retaliation flame words?
;)
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Boroda: It wasn't in school history books, as well as many episodes of Civil war in Russia never appeared in the US school books.
The case of many episodes of russian Civil War supposedly missing from american history books (they are not - I checked and american history books on russian Civil War are quite complete, but I grant you the point about the school textbooks - about as much info as soviet history books had on US Civil War) is really because you just cannot fit everything in one book - as you've said.
The case of any mentioning of Berlin Airlift missing from any books available to the public in the Soviet Union was a censorship decision. After all what would they write? "Our attempt to starve the citizens of West Berlin into submission is being disrupted by the humanitarian airlift from the evil capitalists?
Boroda: Berlin was divided into occupation zones (extremely stupid from my POW - why let the "allies" control what we fought for?)...
So you are saying the allies were too hasty with opening the second front and supplying russians with 500,000 heavy trucks, food and other items - they apparently fough completely different unrelated war...
Your words are typical of rabid communust liberators of the time - whatever they capture is theirs. No consideration for little things like self-determination of germans or other nations soviets "fought for".
Midnight,
I guess my English was not up to the task to catch the nuance, sorry.
I hesitate to answer the question, but for you information, the existance of the Berlin Wall was justified by the need to prevent hostile incursions, infiltration of spies, assasins and saboteurs from West Berlin into the land of socialism.
Same justification was given for existance of extensive border guards (reporting to KGB rather then to military). We were raised on many stories of our border guards with their faithfull dogs catching capitalist spies carrying bombs and poison into the Soviet union every week. Never about them preventing soviet citizens from escaping communist paradise.
Also we celebrated the day when we overtook US in production of butter (little did we know that many americans switched frrom butter to healthier foods) and steel, though not in any consumer item made of steel.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Midnight,
I guess my English was not up to the task to catch the nuance, sorry.
I hesitate to answer the question, but for you information, the existance of the Berlin Wall was justified by the need to prevent hostile incursions, infiltration of spies, assasins and saboteurs from West Berlin into the land of socialism.
Same justification was given for existance of extensive border guards (reporting to KGB rather then to military). We were raised on many stories of our border guards with their faithfull dogs catching capitalist spies carrying bombs and poison into the Soviet union every week. Never about them preventing soviet citizens from escaping communist paradise.
Also we celebrated the day when we overtook US in production of butter (little did we know that many americans switched frrom butter to healthier foods) and steel, though not in any consumer item made of steel.
miko
No apology needed miko, and thank you for the info. I honestly was not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I am curious about the spins put on different historical events by the various sides. Now that Russia is no longer in the business of hating our capitalistic guts maybe we can exchange these historical views.
For instance: Sputnik. America was stunned by the launch of Sputnik 1 and there was talk of the Russians building space platforms to rain nuclear destruction on us. The "space race" started out of this fear.
The "Space Race" - There is another one.....We heard we won.:)
Did anyone wonder why the guards on the wall were facing East?
I'm not looking for the truth...just the Soviet spin.
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I'm a communist.
And you never went to the moon either, you lying pig-dogs.
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See...now.......we are learning here.
I would have thought pig-dog was one word instead of hyphenated. Thanks Dowdy
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I'd say 'your welcome'...
...but it wouldn't fit my...erm...idiom.
Capitalist scum that you are.
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Damn... and all this time I thought we were 'lying running-dog capitalist lackey pigs'.
'capitalist scum' is just so.... ho-hum, yah know?
yah scurvy pinko!
;)
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Capitalist, socialist, whatnot. Don't you people know, that these days it's modern to be an anarchofeminist?
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You forgot the word 'decadent', Hangtime. ;)
Never forget the decadence inherent in the system.
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whoops. damme my eyes, but you are correct.
hmmmm... but where to fit it in?
would it be 'decadent lying running-dog capitalist lackey pigs'....
or 'lying running-dog decadent capitalist lackey pigs'
or 'lying running-dog capitalist lackey decadent pigs'
i dunno.. chit, i know it's all in the nuances, but it just don't seem to roll off the tounge right; yah know?
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Quite frankly, I think my version in this thread was FAR more believable than any of Boroda's here to date.. :p
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i dunno.. chit, i know it's all in the nuances, but it just don't seem to roll off the tounge right; yah know?
No one ever said the path to communistic enlightenment was easy.
Anyway, enough of this bourgeois silliness. I'm off to read some more Marx and find out the right way to spell 'bourgeois'.
I'm not really a communist. I just like the blue overalls and worker's cap we get. Drives girls...err... away, actually. Hmmmm... maybe I should change my position.
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Deja, first: a few years ago German magazine Spiegel published a story releaving a terrific truth about evil Soviet regime. USSR had nukes in East Germany!!! Frankly speaking - I almost laughed my bellybutton off.
Second: "allies" knew what they were doing, leaving West Berlin in the middle of Soviet occupation zone.
Damn, forgot to press "submit" yesterday. Was too busy watching the flame on our board... Let me see what people answered on me drunken angry posts...
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is that a hook hanging outta boroda's mouth?
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Hehe.
Hangtime, you know, you are always welcome into any neo-commie leaflet, right into the "face the enemy" section ;)
Miko, even such an educated person as TahGut doesn't know anything about the US intervention into Russia in 1918-22. Just think about "whatever they capture is theirs".
Miko, here is a link to a song for you. 3.09Mb.
http://www.zvuki.ru/T/P/357/mp3/14
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Originally posted by Boroda
Miko, even such an educated person as TahGut doesn't know anything about the US intervention into Russia in 1918-22. Just think about "whatever they capture is theirs".
But it couldn't possible be because it's all soviet propaganda roadkill? hmmm?
this is a classic Boroda thread, thanks for starting it Tahgut! History teachers should use this thread to teach their kids!!
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How flattering.......I'm edumacated!
I found this.........seems kinda benign compared to the forgein incursion and takeover Boroda is talking about.
The next serious threat was in the Autumn of 1919. This was the period of foreign intervention of the civil war. The allies, primarily France and England, but also the US, sent troops and materials to support the Whites. The troops only stayed until 1919, and the war materials may have helped the Whites more than the troops. The allies supported the Whites partly because they wanted a Russian government that would continue to fight the Germans, but also because they feared the spread of Socialism. Bolshevik Cossacks had taken most of the South and Ukraine, and had come within 200 miles from Moscow. General Yudenich advanced on the capital (Petrograd) and managed to get as far as the city's suburbs before being forced back. This was the last major threat to the Reds from the Whites; thought the fighting would continue on for more than another year.
Did we keep something? I'm pretty sure we paid for Alaska!
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Bolshevik Cossacks
Nothing more to say. Are all your sources like that?
JFYI: US sent troops to Archangelsk to seize the weapon stocks that were delivered there from the Allies, and were paid for in gold. That US troops were even trained to use Russian three-line rifles.
US have stolen the gold stock of the Russian Empire, and didn't deliver the weapons paid by admiral Kolchak.
As for Alaska - you had to give it back in 1967. :p
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Not all of them.....
At the beginning of 1919 the French and Italian governments favoured strong support (in the form of munitions and supplies rather than in men) to the Whites (as the anti-Communist forces now came to be called), while the British and U.S. governments were more cautious and even hoped to reconcile the warring Russian parties. In January the Allies, on U.S. initiative, proposed to all Russian belligerents to hold armistice talks on the island of Prinkipo in the Sea of Marmara.The Communists accepted, but the Whites refused. In March the U.S. diplomat William C. Bullitt went to Moscow and returned with peace proposals from the Communists, which were not accepted by the Allies. After this the Allies ceased trying to come to terms with the Communists and gave increased assistance to Kolchak and Denikin.
Here is thelink (http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/romeo/russia1918.htm)
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The Alaska thing is a hoot! I actually found an American web site stating that we should have given it back also.....the same site also claims to have gotten this info from one of the surviving Romanov children.:D And, that the Tsar and his family were never killed and that the Rockefellers smuggled them out of the country and that the Titanic was sabotaged.......lol.
He gave us many specific, verifiable details how the Russians to keep mum about the survival of the Czar, have been blackmailing large sums out of the Rockefellers and their banks. Also, Russia claims ownership of Alaska. In 1967, "Seward's folly", the U.S. obtained Alaska from Russia BY A 99 YEAR LEASE, NOT AS HISTORY PROCLAIMS, an outright purchase. The lease was arranged by a secret, midnight deal following the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln who obtained aid during the American Civil War from the then-Czar of Russia. Forcing the Rockefellers to disgorge the long-secret Romanov family deposits would severely wreck the Rockefeller banks. Note: Rockefellers' Chase Bank is the advertiser on major TV Network talk shows.
Go here (http://www.skolnicksreport.com/great_secrets.html) for a good laugh.