Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: brady on April 23, 2002, 01:31:53 AM
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The N1K1-Jc shinden model 11c could cary four 250kg bombs, now wouldent that be a nice thing to have:)
I poured over all the books I have on the subject and I have a photo of the model 11c in and the book ststes the unit it was asigned to, while I am certain that the N1K1-J's were produced in large number I am not certain as to how many "c" varients were produced, can anyone help on this isue?
This would go a long way to balencing out the Japanese attack ordance defency problem.
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That's almost too funny. That thing carries more payload than any actual bomber that the Japanese had. The only thing that carries more, four 250kg bombs to be precise, is the H8K2 flying boat.
I wonder why the Japanese speced out such poor bombloads for their bombers? The Ki-67, for example, obviously has the raw power, lift and structure to carry a much heavier load. Probably as much as 6,000-8,000lbs. Yet the specs only asked for 800kg, and that's what Mitsubishi delivered.
EDIT:
The only ifo I could find was this:
The Shiden (Violet Leightning), codenamed 'George', started as a landbased derivative of the N1K1 Kyofu (Mighty Wind), codenamed 'Rex'. The Shiden had the floats replaced with a landing gear with tailwheel, and the Mitsubishi Kasei was replaced with the Nakajima Homare. Trials proved it to perform well. 3 subvariants were derived from the base version
N1K1-Ja Shiden Same as the N1K1-J Shiden, but with it's machineguns removed
N1K1-Jb Shiden All four of the cannons moved to the wing leading edges, and each hardpoint was hardened to carry a 551 lb (250 kg) bomb
N1K1-Jc Shiden Underwing provisions to carry 4 × 551 lb (250 kg) bombs
Number built: 998
No mention of how many of each subtype were built.
The site I got that from also states that there was an N1K2-Ja subtype that could carry four 250kg bombs. I think it would be best to get an N1K1-Jc though. That would give the earlier version a practical purpose in the MA and a real advantage to it in the CT.
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Rene J. Francillon In Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War, states that 1,435 of all types of George were built, N1K1's and N1K2's. Of that total aprox. 400 were Shinden Kai's or the Model we have in AH, so asking for the Earler varient is not like asking for a rare bird, howeaver the number of "c" types built is in question. I did some diging on this a while ago and I beleave that the N1K2-Ja was only produced in very small number like 2 or 3 I may be wrong howeaver I am relying on my memory:)
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Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II by Ikuhiko Hata and Yasuho Izawa, ststes that this is a pic of " Shinden 11 Model Type C fighters, atached to the Genzan Air Group leaving Wonsan base with extra fuel, Aprial 1945"
P. 12
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Originally posted by brady
Rene J. Francillon In Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War, states that 1,435 of all types of George were built, N1K1's and N1K2's. Of that total aprox. 400 were Shinden Kai's or the Model we have in AH, so asking for the Earler varient is not like asking for a rare bird, howeaver the number of "c" types built is in question. I did some diging on this a while ago and I beleave that the N1K2-Ja was only produced in very small number like 2 or 3 I may be wrong howeaver I am relying on my memory:)
Brady,
Here is a excerpt of a report I did for Kesmai when Mage asked me to do some research into the guns used on the N1K2.
=====START HERE=====
In Kawanishi N1K2-J gGeorgeh Shiden-Kai, ISBN4-499-22711-9, it says that the first 100 planes were the N1K2-J (page 67), which makes the rest of the Shiden-kai the N1K2-Ja. Some of the Shiden-Kaifs were eventually converted for improvement or adaptation for specific purposes (ie. Carrier-landings), none of the models after the N1K2-Ja made mass production.
On the first book on the Shiden-Kai I borrowed, "Fighter: Shidenkai" by Y. Ikari, it says 406 Shiden-Kaifs were built. From this, it seems that the last 306 Shiden-kaifs were the N1K2-Ja. From "Shiden, Shidenkai, and Type94 Float Plane" (ISBN4-7698-0631-0), the difference between the N1K2-J and the N1K2-Ja is the increase of the number of bomb racks from two to four, allowing four 250kg bombs to be carried under the wings and from Kawanishi N1K2-J gGeorgeh Shiden-Kai (ISBN4-499-22711-9), 13% of the area of the vertical stabilizer was reduced.
Looking at the chart for monthly production of the Shiden-Kai, ("Fighter: Shidenkai" by Y. Ikari, page 232) the N1K2-Ja was first produced in January of 1945. Here is an excerpt of the chart...
Dec f43 - 1
Jan f44 - 1
Feb f44 - 1
Mar f44 - 1
Apr f44 - 2
May f44 - 1
Jun f44 - 1
Jul f44 - 3
Aug f44 - 2
Sep f44 - 1
Oct f44 - 6
Nov f44 - 17
Dec f44 - 31
Jan f45 - 35
Feb f45 - 47
Mar f45 - 58
Apr f45 - 80
May f45 - 81
Jun f45 - 20
Jul f45 - 12
Aug f45 - 5
Total - 406
The 101st plane is in January 1945.
=====END HERE=====
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Now that is very interesting indead. I wonder why I remember it being different(?), hmmm. If this indead the case, and it certainly look's like it might be, then geting the the extra ordance loadout would be a simple matter indead, much more so than having(or hopping they build) HTC build a N1K1-Jc since the plane is a bit different what with the mid wing and all.
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Originally posted by brady
If this indead the case, and it certainly look's like it might be, then geting the the extra ordance loadout would be a simple matter indead, much more so than having(or hopping they build) HTC build a N1K1-Jc since the plane is a bit different what with the mid wing and all.
Oh but, we want the N1K1-Jc too :)
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O ya!, what ever was I thinking:)
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karnak,do you read something about Japanes Bomber fuel freight?
Japanese Bomber can have many fuel.
Weight which added fuel and ammorment is same compared other country Plane it.
for example,
Ki67's prudence is 8650kg,and gross weight is 13765kg.
Ju88's prudence is 9800kg,and gross weight is 14510kg.
A26's prudence is 10160kg,and gross weight is 15880kg.
B26's prudence is 10800kg,and gross weight is 16780kg.
Weight which subtracted prudence from gross weight is alike on all plane.
IJN & IJA wanted long cruising range.
And, IJA bomber tactics is vulch by small bomb.
JIA did not need heavy bomb on thier tactics.
P.S
Betty bomber is not bomber.It is Attacker on base.
Betty was right as attacker.
Sorry poor english
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You point came through very clear, ty sir:)
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Brady (and everyone),
Sorry, it seems I made a mistake in my original research...
I borrowed the books again, in addition another one which is new to me on our beloved N1K2-J.
In Kawanishi N1K2-J gGeorgeh Shiden-Kai (ISBN4-499-22711-9, this is a bilingual book, both in Japanese and English), it says on page 39,
Photos 113-115: The underside of the wings. Beginning with the Koh, small bombs could be carried on outboard Type 97 Model Koh Kai racks. The plane was capable of hauling four 60kg bombs, or two 250kg weapons.
In ShidenKai and Its Data on Its 99 Mysteries (ISBN4-576-95141-6, this is only in Japanese so the title is a translation by me), on page 176, it says,
translation by me
Shiden Model 11 and Shiden Model 11 Ko were able to carry two 60kg bombs. When it became the Shiden Model 11 Otsu, it was able to carry two 250kg bombs. On the Shiden Model 11 Hei, it became four 60kg bombs or two 250kg bombs, just like the ShidenKai Ko Model.
Ok, just to refresh your minds, Ko is the "a" model, Otsu is the "b" model, and the Hei is the "c" model.
Therefore according to these books, the N1K2-Ja and the N1K1-Jc are only able to carry a total of 500kg (or 1100lbs) of ordnance, contrary to our beliefs.
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And that last coment killed this thread:p But according to my book it could carry 4 551lb bombs.
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Originally posted by Viper17
But according to my book it could carry 4 551lb bombs.
Yeah, I agree Viper, that was what I thought I read in the first place.
The answer to this question is the type of bomb racks the N1K1-Jc and the N1K2-Ja was installed with. It was the Type 97 Model Koh Kai racks. This rack could only be configured with 2x60kg bomb or 1x250kg bomb each.
Unless, someone can come up with another document which says otherwise, I believe this is the case...
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That is the big quandery, some sources calim that those 2 models could cary the 4 250 KG bombs and others do not. The only thing we can say for shure is that the N1K2-J that we have could cary four 60KG bombs as a load out option, which we do not have, the other is that It may of been able to cary four 250kg bombs but it certainaly could cary two 250kg bombs. Obviously in the later case ( the 250kg issue) they decided on the part of discreation and went with the provable.
Now that we all know the George could cary Four 60kg bombs could we see this as a load out option?
How do we know the George was not fitted with four of those racks so it could deleaver 4 250kg bombs?
The only thing that bugs me on this is that I have like 3 books here that say it could cary 4 250kg bombs.
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FDutchmn's source seems more detailed. I would think that his is the correct source.
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Well that does apear to be the end of it, I went out and bought that book and it does indead show the picture very clearly of the N1K2-Ja at the Champlin fighter Museum, prety slick system for the bomb harness much more so than the German sys.
So we are back to the ki-102, as the best ground atack plaen for the Japanese it looks like?:)