Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Spritle on April 23, 2002, 10:35:22 AM
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Ok, I've got some performance data for the Ki-84. One is all in Japanese, but it does have performance curves for climb, speed, and something else that I'm can't remember off hand.
The other document is from TAIC manual, Planes of Fame pub. ISBN 0-915-464-03-2.
Here they are for your viewing pleasure. If you want these you had better take them down, as the forum that they're posted on will probably remove them pretty quick.
(http://www.umr.edu/~dkaracay/Ki84_performance.jpg)
(http://www.umr.edu/~dkaracay/Ki84_charts.jpg)
Spritle
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Nice post, I wonder if that is 150 and 350 rounds per gun for the 20mm and 12.7 mm ????
Does anyone have a figure for the ammo loadout on the Frank and did it vary from model to model?
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I think that 350 rds per gun is for 12,7 mm MGs...:p
And heres cutaway of Ki-84 :)
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Spritle, You 'da man!!!
That's what I really wanted.
I can understand second pic easily. ;)
Thanks,
Mitsu
:D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D
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I have goosebumps!
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At least HTC has got enough data. :)
It's time to release Ki-84! :) :) :)
-Mitsu
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Mitsu,
On the Japanese chart what is the graph in the upper left corner of the four graphs shown? It has m.p.h. on the X axis, but what is on the Y axis?
Thanks,
Spritle
By the way someone better save these quick as they will probably be gone soon.
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a Y axis in the upper left graph shows "Range (miles)".
Its graph is "Range vs. Speed".
-Mitsu
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Anything in your book on the N1K2-J or N1K1-J?
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Sorry to burst your bubble's guys, but alot of the data from the TAIC book are "estimates", based upon past performance of other aircraft or interpolations & calculations based upon recovered enemy wrecks. (FYI I have the same book and I've discussed the performance data in it with Pyro before)
Very few of them are actual flight test data.
I have no idea on the Japanese data though.
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Vermillion,
I don't have the TAIC book so I don't know anything about it. What is the history of the book itself? When was it first published? Is it possible that the performance data is from one of the 2 or 3 captured flyable aircraft that were tested at Wright Paterson after the war?
The Japanese page is from Famous Aircraft of the World on the Ki-84. I have this book.
Spritle
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I own the Plane of Fame TAIC manual version Verm referred to and AFAIK the data is just estimate for most aircraft. I also own the original June 1945 revision of the TAIC manual 1 and the October 1944 revision of the ATAD T1 book, both dealing with the Japanese aircraft.
From the ATAD manual :
"Except where otherwise noted, performance figures represent the best estimates of the engineering Division of BuAer and have been calculated after a careful analysis of information derived from intelligence, captured equipment, drawings, and photographs."
The curves published in FAOW come from those books not from manufacturer data.
Some real test data is available through the NASM, but do not expect too much.
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The Ki-84 was really test flown by TAIU-SWPA at Clark field. They also test flew several other Japanese planes there .
gripen
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God I would love to see this plane. NO it won't be perked but it would replace the la7 and Spit I am thinking. Such a sweet ride. Would love to see other JP rides as well to compliment the Axis rides even though I love my FW's.
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excuse me.
Do you know?
Ki84 is Max speed in Japan is 624km/h.
But, It's increase rototype value.
Its engine is not Ha45-21(2000hp), Ha45-11(1800hp) is.
but, Ha45-21 have limitter(1800hp) on front.
This limitter was not removed at war finish.
But,I heard a few N1K2-J and Ki-84 was removed limitter.
For example,
Ki84-Ib(otu type) recorded 660km/h in Japan.
But,@this is private value. :D
This is same on N1K2-J's engine "homare type21(1990hp)", too.
But, I think AH's N1K2-J is reflected it.
I thiink ,TAIU value is removeing limitter Engine value.
TAIU-SWPA's Japanese Plane at Clark field is J2M3 Raiden(Jack),too.
sorry poor english.
Pkun : Tainannkuu/Overdrive
I want J2M3 Raiden!!!!!!!!!
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TAIC reports were issued at various times, and peridodically updated throughout the war as more information became available. The biggest problem with the Planes of Fame book is that it doesn't provide the date of which reports its using.
The Ki-84 tests were not done at Clark Airfield, they were performed at Dayton Ohio at Wright Patterson Airforce Base, and in Pennsylvania at a airfield who's name escapes me at the moment (I'm at work and all my resources are at home). This is a subject I've done quite a bit of research into.
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Verm the March 1945 version i have seems a bit more complete than the one in the plane of fame book but the data is revision A so i'm a bit at a loss.
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Vermillion,
The Ki-84 was tested at Clark field, this is well documented in several sources (actually two examples were tested there at spring 1945, TAIU-SWPA numbers S10 and S17).Check for example "War Prizes" by Phil Butler. Also some primary sources on these tests are easily available if you mind to do some work...
gripen
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Help me out here gent's, we have a slugish N1K2-J, the Ki 84 has the same engine, won't we have a slugish Ki 84?
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Easily available? You must know something I dont.
I have been in contact with the US Air Force Musuem several times concerning the flight test data for both the N1K2-J and the Ki-84 (both of which were tested there at Dayton). On the telephone, by email, and by letter.
I talked directly with a guy named Menard, who was the chief researcher at their data archives. He told me that according to their records and he said he also talked directly with several of the leading authors/historians/researchers in the US on Japanese aircraft.
Basically according to him, the data for those planes just doesn't exist anymore. He told me its commonly requested though.
Maybe he's full of it, but I know he's helped me and several other members of the AW/WBs/AH communities find quite a bit of flight test data in the past on other aircraft. He retired within the past year or so though.
I made similar data requests of the US Naval Aviation Musuem (they have the only other existing N1K2-J, beside the USAF Musuem) but I never got a response from them.
I haven't contacted NASM yet, but I do have a contact person there. I just got busy, when my life got turned upside down, while I was on this search about a year and a half ago, and never finished talking to them.
So please fill us in. Where is it easily available?
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Vermillion,
You can find some of that stuff from the PRO, it takes just couple of minutes to find them if you know what to look for...
BTW they also tested couple N1K1s in the Clark field.
gripen
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Go here:
http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk/
Search for 'ADM 1/17474'
This is the trials of captured japanese planes against the Seafire III. The online order form is here:
https://www.pro.gov.uk/recordcopying/orderform/orderform.asp?bhcp=1
It costs 10 pounds for an estimate. It's cheaper to get paper photocopies than to get scans sent by e-mail. If you decide to go ahead with the order (after finding out how many pages are involved and how much it will cost), they deduct the 10 pounds from the cost.
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Probably the best source of data is Rene Francillon's book Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War (1989).
According to Francillon, the Ki-84-1a topped out at 392 MPH at 20k ft, a match for the f6-5.
These numbers assume the equipment worked, which it often did not, and does not reflect the substitution of inferior materials in production as the war dragged on.
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wells,
Actually you can find even more... a hint: Intelligence reports.
gripen
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Originally posted by Pkun
excuse me.
Do you know?
Ki84 is Max speed in Japan is 624km/h.
But, It's increase rototype value.
Its engine is not Ha45-21(2000hp), Ha45-11(1800hp) is.
but, Ha45-21 have limitter(1800hp) on front.
This limitter was not removed at war finish.
But,I heard a few N1K2-J and Ki-84 was removed limitter.
For example,
Ki84-Ib(otu type) recorded 660km/h in Japan.
But,@this is private value. :D
This is same on N1K2-J's engine "homare type21(1990hp)", too.
But, I think AH's N1K2-J is reflected it.
I thiink ,TAIU value is removeing limitter Engine value.
TAIU-SWPA's Japanese Plane at Clark field is J2M3 Raiden(Jack),too.
sorry poor english.
Pkun : Tainannkuu/Overdrive
I want J2M3 Raiden!!!!!!!!!
Pkun, why did the Japanese put limits on the engines?
Interesting that the Ha45-11 was upgraded to a Ha45-21, but then regulated to the -11 horsepower.
Why then did they even use thrust augmentation exhaust to improve performance, so it could be regulated??
Strange. :confused:
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hi silo :)
Its answer is written this book.
"kyokuchi senntouki shidennkai" this is published from "gakkenn"
This is Japanese Book.
Prototype Shidenkai Operation reference book exist in this book.
Its original source was compilated by IJN Aviation headquarters.
Following extract and translat from Japanese
(sorry,my English is poor.May be There is an error in English probably.)
"~~ As a result in experimentation in the sky,some problems clarified.
Those is ,imperfect combustion, Engine over heating, and damage to kelmet.
Spec of NK9H(This is prototype name for Homare type21) is made
same spec of NK9B(This is prototype name for Homare type11).
This named NK9H-B.
~~~Omission~~~
Recently, NK9H-B finally be practical engine, and This could use as NK9H.
But, Some problems clarified.
Those happen in secound gear of super charger.
Those problem is tendency over heating, insufficient of electric system capability.
As a result, NK9H's capability in Altitude is not believed.
Present, NK9H is reserching these problems.
AMC is testing in shiden.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homare is name in IJN.
Homare is called "Ha45" in IJA.
Homare type 11 is Ha45-11.
Homare type 21 is Ha45-21.
This was written in Jan 1945.
AMC could not complet until war piriod.
I could not find to settle these problem and remove limitter.
I read ,TAIU's Ki84 was changed plug made in USA.
And, I heard ,tendency over heating is settled by up quality of fuel in Japanse test report.
I think ,cause of defferent Japanse value to TAIU value is these problems.
sorry poor english.
Pkun : tainannkuu/overdrive
Originally posted by -=Silo=-
Pkun, why did the Japanese put limits on the engines?
Interesting that the Ha45-11 was upgraded to a Ha45-21, but then regulated to the -11 horsepower.
Why then did they even use thrust augmentation exhaust to improve performance, so it could be regulated??
Strange. :confused:
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Sorry ,I forget.
Over Hieating is happened in cylinder.
Its cauce is proper ratio of mixture air between fuel to air.
Ha45's proper ratio is short range.
but,IJA and IJN tested N1K2-J or Ki84 having limitter engine or Ha45-11 and gross weight.
Its value is not 2000hp's value.
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A thrust augmenting exhaust wouldn't have too much of an adverse affect on an engines tendency to over heat.
I would imagine that the overheating was caused by detonation and that the limiter was probably just limiting boost. Of course this is pure speculation. Many other factors could have caused it as well, like too small of an oil-cooler, or poorly designed cooling fins and/or air circulation inside the cowl. But limiting boost would limit the ultimate horsepower and limit the amount of heat.
As to the tests of the Frank at Clark Field. I doubt very much if the aircraft were really put through their paces there. More than likely the aircraft were given a quick flight evaluation against PAC Theater US aircraft for comparison. All of the documentation I have on the Frank lists the tests being performed after the war 1946 (read that as being at Dayton).
Francillon's book is a really good book, however what were his sources? Most of his pictures list US Navy Department, USAF or MARU, but as far as his aircraft specs he gives very little information as to their source. I can't remember if it was this forum or another, but I know that attempts have been made to contact him for more information and all have met dead ends.
Spritle
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Spritle,
They certainly did at least rough performance tests at the Clark Field, see for example "The Mustang Story" by Ken Delve. Anyway, accident and failure rate at Clark Field tests appear to have been very high.
Writers tend to protect their sources because many times they have put lot of effort to find them. And it's same for everyone if you want to find something, easy stuff is allready found. In most cases you must go through truck load of papers before you found something you have been looking for.
gripen
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Pretty much all WW2 fighters had a boost limiter of some sort. Generally WEP was just running the engine beyond the normal boost limits.