Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on April 24, 2002, 11:38:40 AM
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Strike One, You're Out (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020424/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_scandal) is a step, but why don't they simply make celibacy optional?
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I don't think celibacy has anything to do with it. Pedophiles tend to go to jobs where they will have easier access to their victims. The Priesthood is one of those jobs, just like coaching, teaching or day care.
Priesthood doesn't create pedophiles.
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Priesthood may not make pedophiles, but it's a catalyst.
-SW
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I'm not sure that most of these sex crime cases involving priests are pedophile cases. Don't most of them involve teens? If that is true, it may be that these errant priests are homosexuals, not pedophiles.
I suspect that if a young teenage kid is struggling with his sexual identity and finds that he feels gay, he starts looking around, thinking, "How the heck am I going to fit in this world?"
Suddenly, he thinks he's got a calling from God, a calling that doesn't allow him to become sexually involved with women.
It solves his essential problem so well that it probably does feel as though it is a calling. (lightning bolt from the sky) boom - perfect way to live a productive life and get respect - become a priest and dedicate your life to God.
As with many, many good intentions, they fall short of the Glory of God, and the libido leaks out.
But I wonder why you don't hear much about hetero priests engaging in sexual misconduct... ?
Maybe there is something to the suggestion that the priesthood attracts individuals who like the position of being in a position of trust and power over young people.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Strike One, You're Out (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020424/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_scandal) is a step, but why don't they simply make celibacy optional?
If you read your history, you will see that they did just that repeatedly. There are plenty of religions (including christian) where celibacy is optional. If some people still insist on sending their children to one full of sex-starved priests, it's their inalienable right.
miko
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real shame
I think the Catholic faith is suffering a major setback. The pervs need to be punished and flushed from the system. Sent to the state pen where they can play with harden turd burglers.
The crap they agreed to in Rome is nothing but crap!
I feel a priest can and should be celibate. If his sexual desire is that strong an urge, he needs to find another profession. His energies should be directed towards finding God and leading others to Him.
Not his crotch ..... :mad:
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Never fear, justice will prevail.
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Eagler, there's nothing sinful about having a sex drive. It's as natural as having a desire to eat when one is hungry, or to explore when one can. To play, to love. To hate.
Perhaps priests should be asked to do away with all aspects not strictly necessary to ensure performance, so God can get more of them?
I think it's asking too much.
I think 'being married to God' is the issue, and that's what prevents them from having a normal marriage. As other forms of Christianity has shown (was born into the Lutheran faith myself), it's just a matter of interpretation, not a strict necessity.
Priests. Priests are humans who've been misled to believe they're closer to God than other people. Or perhaps are percieved to be closer to God than others. Scrutiny of the Bible will show they're not.
In other words, this false lifting up-to-superhuman-state is BS in my eyes.
At any rate, Rome is now saying that if the abuse is a one time affair, the priest might continue on.
Imagine that in a kindergarden; a guy molests your child. His supervisor says "oh, first times, yes? Well, don't do it again" and sends him out to yer kid again.
It's utter bull manure, but that's to be expected, given the authority
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StSanta
I agree with you on the BS they decided on in Rome. It's crap.
Don't agree on the sex drive, everyone has to have sex to be healthy blah, blah.
It's an urge, stronger in some than others. The Catholic faith and others require their leaders to choose God over their noodle. If one's desire to play with his noodle is stronger than his desire to find God, he needs to find a faith that allows both. Not to change the ones that don't ...
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Originally posted by StSanta
Priests. Priests are humans who've been misled to believe they're closer to God than other people. Or perhaps are percieved to be closer to God than others. Scrutiny of the Bible will show they're not.
In other words, this false lifting up-to-superhuman-state is BS in my eyes.
Not to be rude or anything, but wtf do you know about the relationship between priests and God?
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I'm disgusted with the equivical way the Pope handled this abomination. :mad:
Maybe celibacy is asking too much of priests.
But if they did away with celibacy, can you visualize homosexual priests throwing down a rubber mat on the floor in the rectory on a Friday night and having a gay orgy that would be technically allowable?
It might not go over too well with the flock.
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Originally posted by Eagler
real shame
...I feel a priest can and should be celibate. If his sexual desire is that strong an urge, he needs to find another profession. His energies should be directed towards finding God and leading others to Him.
Not his crotch ..... :mad:
From what I gather, Catholic priests were allowed to marry for the first 1,200 years of the church. In fact, there is scripture to support married priests.
In First Timothy, Chapter 3 verse 2, Paul says, "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach."
In 1 Timothy 3:5 he continues, "..if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?"
According to this site (http://www.theminddoctor.com/Celibacy.htm) and others (do a search on catholic history), celibacy was adopted for priests for financial reasons, not spiritual...
A list of canons of St Pauls in London shows that in the eleventh century many were inheriting the position from their fathers. Even bishops became hereditary. To stem this haemorrhage of church property into clerical families, requirements of celibacy began to be built into church law, beginning in the sixth century with decrees from Pope Pelagius I (556-561AD).
In the history of the Catholic church, 39 Popes were married.
Pope John Paul II has publicly stated that celibacy is not essential to the priesthood.
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So you think letting them marry would get rid of the pervs?
I like my spiritual leaders more monk like than most I guess :)
I think finding/teaching God should be a 24/7 job.
Nothing against those preachers/faiths with families/children (mistresses :)), just would like mine 100% consumed with his faith, not family - wife - sex issues.
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If I was the POPE I would....
recall all priestly pedophiles and qiuetly lock them away for ever in a concrete and steel section of the vatican with no windows and only porage and water to eat and drink. No visitors. No phones. No TV. All must pray all day long till death do us part. Mabey include any others that tick me off like the odd cardinal that drops the ball enough times. This makes much more sense then letting the police/system handle these vile people. The system may let them out some day and that is not an option! Gotta lock them away forever and ever.
Cheers!!
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Originally posted by Eagler
So you think letting them marry would get rid of the pervs?
I like my spiritual leaders more monk like than most I guess :)
I think finding/teaching God should be a 24/7 job.
Nothing against those preachers/faiths with families/children (mistresses :)), just would like mine 100% consumed with his faith, not family - wife - sex issues.
I think celibacy is sexually deviant behavior and people who practice lifelong celibacy are (to use your word) perverts, so yes... letting priests marry will reduce the number of perverts. Will this have any effect on the pedophiles? Who knows? Is there a link between celibacy and pedophilia? I doubt it, but one has to wonder why other churches that don't have celibate clergy also don't seem to have the problem with child molestation that the Catholic church has.
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There might be some valid points here, Eagler.
Think back to when you were an adolescent. Were you in a constant state of mortal sin like I was? :rolleyes:
Pitting a priest's faith against a constant barrage of phyisical human nature seems like a set-up for failure...
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Eagler, I am not sure your priest will not 'know God' better than you, even if he abstains from sex and devotes himself to him, I think
Sure, it'd give him more time with God but...
But why not just let him study the bible harder and more (most priests do little formal studies beyond their 'degree'.)? Most of their time is spent doing other things. Priests at least in the Lutheran faith do lots and lots more than just read the bible or perform some ritual.
What do you want from a priest? I suppose you want him to be knowledgeable about the Bible and Christian traditions and rituals. To follow the words in the bible and be a moral compass, an example, if you will. To, through his knowledge of the bible, guide others towards a more Christian way and help through the teachings of Jesus.
All these things can be done without giving up sex or other pleasures.
If you look at the top of most things, the elite have sex and do other fun things. Tennis players have sex, probably. Scholars and scientists have, too.
Sex isn't a sin according to the bible, as long as it is within the bible. I am not sure how the bible treats sex; strictly for reproduction, or a source of pleasure? I know that some interpretations of the bible and some faiths are devoid of pleasure, thinking life should not be pleasurable, but rather fully and wholly denoted to God, sinful beings as humans are; to forever work retonement.
It's beside the point, sort of. Oops :D
Eagler, I do not mean to question *your* beliefs in particular. More, you represent a quite widespread, large group within some Christian faiths. So it's asked more to them than to you, although I would and do appreciate any expalantions or elaborations from you :).
I guess I can see your point about being committed to God, and abstaining from sex is a way to demonstrate commitment. To opress a human desire as strong as the sex drive is a potent symbol of commitment.
Is this it, though? Is it all there is to it?
Input, please :=)
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William Donohue, president of the Catholic League, states:
Because everyone knows, everyone knows, most of the cases we’re talking about is the guys putting their hands on the guys, not on the girls. And over 90% of them are not putting their hands on minors. They’re putting their hands on adolescents. There’s a word for that. It’s called homosexuality.
You can read the rest of the interview at BeliefNet (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/103/story_10367.html).
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
...snip...but one has to wonder why other churches that don't have celibate clergy also don't seem to have the problem with child molestation that the Catholic church has.
Don't be so sure.....
Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.
These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide.
from this Christian Science Monitor (http://csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html) article.
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I wasn't. :D
Thanx for the link.
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Me thinks that a spiritual leader should be a little "Holier" than the rest of us in thought and deed.
Yes, abstinence from sex should be a sacrifice of sorts to show one's commitment to his cause. Just as abstinence from gambling, drinking, (put your favorite vice here) are. Yes, sex is a vice. If it controls you and you don't control it - it's a vice in my book.
The energies devoted to sex, in both deed and thought and thought and thought and ... :), for the "Holy" man should be spent in his quest for union with his God.
My understanding is that the Bible and most other major religions dictate sex as procreation not a "do it if feels good" activity.
Sandman, so any monk/nun is a perv? LOL
Seems the majority of the ones here bashing a priest's celibate lifestyle are the same ones who have bashed religion and God in the past...
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Main Entry: per·vert
Pronunciation: p&r-'v&rt
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French pervertir, from Latin pervertere to overturn, corrupt, pervert, from per- thoroughly + vertere to turn -- more at PER-, WORTH
Date: 14th century
1 a : to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right : CORRUPT b : to cause to turn aside or away from what is generally done or accepted : MISDIRECT
2 a : to divert to a wrong end or purpose : MISUSE b : to twist the meaning or sense of : MISINTERPRET
synonym see DEBASE
- per·vert·er noun
Obviously, we're not using the same definition. You're using 1A, while I'm using 1B. :D
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I thought the Cardinals drafted Wendell Bryant? Damn, this messes up my whole mock draft!
-Sikboy
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Sex is a *vice?*
Man, Eagler, sometimes you make me so worried bro. ;)
I shall have to wield my influence upon you, and lead you away from those dark corners of existence!
I guess it varies from person to person. I'm in control of my sex drive; some others I know aren't.
A Christian friend of mine said to me, sarcastically "yes Claus, anything that is fun is either a vice or a sin according to Christianity".
Good for a laugh, if nothing else :).
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Because the perverts like sex with l'il kids, grown ups don't interest catholic clergy.
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If the Pope doesn't take a position to defrock and prosecute first time molesters in the priesthood, I'm quitting. I've made up my mind. :mad:
But not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, Eagler; sex is a gift from God, not a vice. Our bodies are designed to enjoy it. Sex is essentially good.
Its only a vice when its perverted, or if you wear pink leather g-strings with metal spike studs (turned inward) :p
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Its only a vice when its perverted, or if you wear pink leather g-strings with metal spike studs (turned inward)
Another Luftwable flame I see.
;)
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Where is the pope or the term catholic mentioned in the Bible?
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What am I missing here? Aint this stuff against the law? Is it not aiding and abetting to look the other way when the law is broken? I don't understand why they themselves get to choose whether or not to.... hell, forget firing them, how about having them arrested? Are churches excempt from this? Is this a seperation of church and state thing?
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Tahgut, nothing wrong with that particular piece of Luftwaffe flying equipment really... but some do think the metal studs are a bit kinky. :rolleyes:
The sharp metal studs are said to instill self discipline, and to improve pin-point concentration during the devastating Luftwaffe attacks.
The pink coloration of the g-string equipment is just for that little extra dash of panache... I think.
:D
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What am I missing here? Aint this stuff against the law? Is it not aiding and abetting to look the other way when the law is broken? I don't understand why they themselves get to choose whether or not to.... hell, forget firing them, how about having them arrested? Are churches excempt from this? Is this a seperation of church and state thing?
- Nash
When the pope makes a position statement like that, it applies only to internal church procedures, not to criminal law.
A priest could fondle a minor and be arrested and convicted for the crime. But if I understand correctly, what the pope has said is that the subject priest would not automatically be kicked out of the priesthood if he isn't a "serial offender".
Pretty freaking lame, isn't it? :mad:
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Originally posted by hblair
Where is the pope or the term catholic mentioned in the Bible?
"catholic" means universal, so the Catholic church is akin to saying the Universal church.
Catholics claim the first pope to be Peter, who was appointed by Jesus as "the rock upon which I will build my church".
That is the extent of my memory from 8 years of Catholic school.:rolleyes: but I have retained a fair amount of catholic guilt whenever I do something "wrong".:D
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In catholic church there is open talk about celibacy going away with passing of John Paul II.
As for their acts, problem I see is the fact that the contact occurs with one party not having given agreement, or not old enough to make such a decision.
If bishop wants to go grab guys at local gay bar, that's his problem, and I wouldn't care less. Abusing kids who can't make decisions regarding their sexuality is a no no.
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Originally posted by fd ski
In catholic church there is open talk about celibacy going away with passing of John Paul II.
As for their acts, problem I see is the fact that the contact occurs with one party not having given agreement, or not old enough to make such a decision.
If bishop wants to go grab guys at local gay bar, that's his problem, and I wouldn't care less. Abusing kids who can't make decisions regarding their sexuality is a no no.
Never thought FD and I would EVER agree on any subject. :)
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I'm leaving to go outa town in a few hours Target. I'll expand on what I meant when I get back.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I have retained a fair amount of catholic guilt whenever I do something "wrong".:D
Now remember MT, guilt doesn't prevent you from doing something wrong- it just prevents you from enjoying it.