Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Innominate on April 25, 2002, 07:28:18 AM
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ok let me start by posting a little disclaimer, I am a newbie so if I'm wrong somewhere here please tell me.
Often if i get into a HO with someone, they turn at the end, right into me, killing me, yet somehow don't die themselves. I like the idea of collisions as a realism factor, but when I'm hitting someone who doesnt also take damage, it's even worse than having no collisions at all.
Is this intentional for some reason, or merely a design problem?
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If you collide on YOUR FE, you die. If the other guy doesn't collide on HIS FE he doesn't die. Net lag allows one FE to see a collision, and the other to see no collision. Strange, but true. The solution is to avoid collisions.
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I suppose the real question is, why aren't collisions mutual, why is it implemented the way it is?
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Because one guy may be laggy, and its not fair to him if he has no chance to avoid.
EDIT: I said this poorly, listen to Deja
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Seems to have always been like this, there's no way to get them change it ;)
IHMO if your opponent evades, even if you can't see it on your FE due to net lag, you shouldn't die.
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Its not that one guy "may" be laggy... everyone lags to some degree.
Its a matter of how far your plan can travel in 150ms-500ms (75ms being a decent ping time by both players... your FE to server... server to thier FD). Basically... no two people see the exact same thing on their FEs because of ping time. Given that... in order to have both people get damage from a collision, you have to accept that you can collide with someone without actually hitting them.
What is worse... colliding with someone and they don't die... or missing them and you die.
AKDejaVu
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Let's look at the facts:
1) 90% of all collisions happen in HO's.
2) Because of the way collisions are implemented, YOU have to ram him in order to get a collision, not him ram you. If you see the collision it means you flew into the guy, not the other way around. If the enemy causes the collision, then he goes down and you don't.
3) You control your own plane so if you are getting collisions it's a problem with your piloting since if you refer back to point #2 you'll realise that if you collided it was your fault anyway.
Soda's tips for avoiding collisions:
- Don't take HO's... it's dangerous enough with guns pointing at each other and going nose to nose. If you accept HO's then who cares about collisions. If you get close enough to collide and you don't kill the other guy too then your aim sucks since you should have sliced him up with your guns before then anyway.
- Don't fly into other people... it's that simple. It's not like they can ram you in AH since that would only kill them and not you. You have to ram them in order to get a collision.
I often have people try and get so damn close that they smash into me and die... it's not my fault they decide they need to ram me. I try to avoid collisions so why penalize me if they don't.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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"It's not like they can ram you in AH since that would only kill them and not you. "
This is not completely true. It is possible to deliberately ram other people. What you have to do is figure out how far ahead of the enemy you have to pass for it to detect a collision on his FE, then fly through that spot. Much easier said than done, but it IS possible.
J_A_B
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Well so far I've been several situations where, at the last second, someone made a sharp turn around in front of me, causing me to hit them. (True that most of them were as much my fault as thiers though)
So instead of causing the laggy people to lose in a collision, it's set up for them to win, since they're the ones who to the server, dodge long after the collision happened?
I have no problem with dying in a collision, what bugs me is that only one person usually dies in them. Shouldn't it be both take damage, or nobody does?
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EVERYONE EXPERIENCES LAG OF SOME KIND.
A person with heavy "lag" has zero advantage in this situation. The simple truth is you hit his aircraft on your FE. It has zero to do with lag and everything to do with you flying to close to where you see him on your FE and not being prepared for that move.
Now.. you're pissed because he got off scott free. I guarantee it is not anywhere near as pissed as you'd be if you'd flown no closer than 100 yards to him and were killed when he collided with you on his FE.
All you really need to do is to come up with a communication system that does not have any delay that everyone can link to and play all games without lag. Then then everyone will see the same thing on their FE and all of this is moot. Simple solution.
Else... figure out what you want more: to die even though you missed a plane... or to die because you hit one?
AKDejaVu
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Actually, Soda, 99% of my collisions have been in scissor-fights... while a HO is easily avoided, a close-in scissor-fight is a difficult thing to judge due to the lag.
Innominate, it's not a perfect system, and it's frustrating at times, but in the long run, I think it all evens out. You'll get your fair share of unscathed collisions.
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Originally posted by Dux
Innominate, it's not a perfect system, and it's frustrating at times, but in the long run, I think it all evens out. You'll get your fair share of unscathed collisions.
But thats kind of my point, I dont want to do it to anyone else any more than I want them to do it to me
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That's 99% of YOUR collisions Dux, mine are the same, 99% of the time it's a scissors or blindside that results in a collision. Then again, there is little/no way to avoid these, they happen and just as often happen to the enemy (it's pure luck when in that close who collides with whom).
90% of the collisions overall though go to the HO... people hang in the HO right to the bitter end trying to shoot the crap out of each other and then ram into each other in the end without bothering to avoid. This guy described the typical collision in AH, it's a HO where nobody chickens out.
JAB, it is theoretically possible to force someone to ram you while you don't ram, but in practice it would be impossible to judge. I can see it now "I know the guy has a ping time of 130ms, so if I place myself at X position infront of him it will appear to be a collision to him but not to me". Nice try though... seen it tried before, it's impossible to create this condition under anything but a collaborative crash.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Collisions as modeled in AH are a feature. Deal with it. It has no relation to realism, immersion or any other kind of "ism" you want to add. :rolleyes:
BTW the player with the worst connection loses in collisions.
:eek:
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"JAB, it is theoretically possible to force someone to ram you while you don't ram, but in practice it would be impossible to judge. "
It's not impssible at all. The reason you don't see much of it in AH is simple--there's not usually a reason to do this instead of just using guns. The only time it's really useful is against mid to high-alt bombers, and even then you need to have a much better E-state than the bomber to do it. In almost any other case, in order to line up for the ramming you also are lining up for a guns shot and it's just so much easier to pull the trigger.
One constant is unchanged however--you can always avoid the collision. All collisions, accidental or deliberate, require the "victim" to not evade it.
J_A_B
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This is my take on it ...
The results that we see are due to the overall architecture of how AH is implemented, and needs to be implemented, due to the fact that we all participate over the internet. The weak link here is the internet and not AH.
Each of us runs our own FE, and results from our FE are sent in packets to the server. The server then, simplistically, puts all the resulting packets together and then sends updated packets back to our FE refreshing our display.
Have you ever noticed when flying at about 10k and you look over the ocean and see black dots that appear to be hovering and then in the next instance, they move, hover, move. This action is due to the above scenario. Sending and receiving packets.
Now ... apply this logic to an HO ....
You and I are heading into an HO D 2.0 both flying over 300mph .... At approx D 1.0 you roll out of the HO and I am determined to slice you in half with full guns at level flight. Remember this whole scenario will take place in seconds with 2 planes closing at that speed.
This is where the packet transmission/updates come into play. I read somewhere (and it make sense) that HiTech has an algorithm that "estimates" flight travel, due to the fact that all packets don't arrive at the same time, and he must simulate smooth flight/interaction within the arena. Without this ... people complain about lag now ... the screaming would be deafening.
So ... you have rolled out of the HO ... your packets may have or may not have been received and assembled at the server and I have not yet received them, but it still appears to me on my FE that you are now 500m dead ahead ... NOT REALLY (HiTech's estimated flight path is now in effect) ... I squeeze the trigger ... see sparkles and WHAM ... we go wing to wing. I am now a flaming dart headed to earth. All of this just took place ONLY in my FE !!!
Somewhere in the middle or end of that split second scenario, our packets have been received and assembled on the server. Mine say COLLISION ... yours says NO COLLISION. I look back and your plane is working perfectly, no smoke/damage from guns or collision ... WTF !!!
I got what I deserved cause I stayed with the HO and I did hit your plane (on MY FE). Why should you be disabled when in reality you did roll out of the HO at D1.0?
I have also been on the receiving end of situations where I check my six and see a bandit not directly on my six but damn close to it. I am in a Spit, pull hard turn, knowing full well that I will out turn his solution and the next thing I know is my tail has been ripped off. This situation could and probably is the result of the same scenario as described above. What I saw was him almost on my six, but his real position was directly on my six 300m back.
This is something that we all have to deal with and must accept. When this stuff happens, you appear in the tower and you pick you next ride. Simple as that.
It was said in a post prior to mine. If you don't want to crash in an HO ... then avoid the direct HO. Once I understood this concept, I have not crashed in an HO unless I have decided to stick with it.
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This is where the packet transmission/updates come into play. I read somewhere (and it make sense) that HiTech has an algorithm that "estimates" flight travel, due to the fact that all packets don't arrive at the same time, and he must simulate smooth flight/interaction within the arena. Without this ... people complain about lag now ... the screaming would be deafening.
Server Prediction! Oh boy reminds me of the Counter Strike Netcode.
What you just explain to me tells me that no fight on AH is fair. I can execute a nice merge to incoming bogie "but the server says that Im somewhere else" GREAT. And when I shot Im shoting a ghost " LAG " ......
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roadkill colisions have nothing to do with worse connection or lag per se.
Colision are a result of what you see on your front end FE. If you see yourself hit a guy no matter what the circumstance thats your fault. The other guy may see himself d100 above or below you.
both of you could ping lo with solid connects. And colisions would still work the same way. You are in control of your plane and what you see on your front end and how you respond to it is your responsibility. No one can purposely ram you. Dont tell us no crap about "figuring how the fe's are off" it nonsense.
You only die in colisions because you are the only one that saw a colision. Every game you play is like that wb il2 and most others.
Coming up with some bs excuse as to why you die in colisions is just that bs. If you colide most times you will die or be damaged. Now there are times when the colision will register on both fes and both will die. But thats rare.
Now would you rather have it where in those times you think you ho'd a guy and he dies but on his fe he colided but you both die?. Even though on your fe you are clear of him. Would that be better? It would as if you blew up with no reason.
Hell no.
When the world is wired with fiber optics or some other magical cable and ping times are reduced to 0 then mutual death in colisions will make sense.
wrong smack hits are registered on your fe then sent to the server then to the guy u hit. If you hit him on your fe then he recieves damage. So you never (or rarely sometimes lag may interupt damage packets but thats different) shoot at ghosts.
If you believe that how many times have you shot at a "ghost" since you been in ah? Quit the bs this is how games work over the internet.
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Originally posted by smack
Server Prediction! Oh boy reminds me of the Counter Strike Netcode.
What you just explain to me tells me that no fight on AH is fair. I can execute a nice merge to incoming bogie "but the server says that Im somewhere else" GREAT. And when I shot Im shoting a ghost " LAG " ......
You obviously don't understand the concept of packet exchange and the need for "prediction" smoothing in this application. Without this, you would see a very disturbing "slide show" on your FE.
Stealing a part of Wotan's quote: "When the world is wired with fiber optics or some other magical cable and ping times are reduced to 0 ..." - until this is reality, then you must deal with present architecture - accept it - learn from it - then deal with it.
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Even if communications travelled directly to HTC at the speed of light it would take 6ms to get from my house to HTC and another 10ms to get from them to the east coast. HTC has to do some processing on the data in the middle so even with perfect communications, lag would have to be something like 30ms within the US and twice that to overseas players. If HTC fixes the "speed of light problem" then they deserve Nobel prizes for both physics and flight sim modelling. But I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Hooligan
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Probably shouldnt admit this but I have made B17s/C47s collide with me by flying in front of them and pulling up at the right moment. Works great when bingo ammo in an La7 :) It usually results in an explosion or missing wing;)
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unless you have a film i doudt many if any believe you :(
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I tell you like this I have been on level flight " In my bomber " and had a Fw190 Ram me Im in level flight and he rams me. Now I see him come out the other side just white smoke coming out of him but Im going down in parts. Can someone explain this one to me?..
If the FE is perfect Bill Clinton is inocent :).
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Bill is guilty of something?
Lying to hypocrits about an HO? oops wrong thread
Collision is a mean beast. I find the longer I play the less it happens. Of course then bob starts up and the HOing 110s get intense. Still been a while since I have been in a collision.
I think the real stinker in this is the separation you feel from reality when you see your plane lose chunks and the enemy flies by picking his nose like he didnt even notice you were there. Maybe a little halo should appear over their cockpit for a couple seconds.
The other problem I have with the whole ho collision thing, I avoid hos all the time, and often pull out of the ho very late but before they can get a gun solution (hurri 1 man). Yet I have never ever seen an enme plane fall apart after harmlessly passing me. I think it is just a conspiracy against me.
You guys are just hired thugs helping to perpetuate my own private hell. Making me believe it happens to the others....
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If two planes are close enough for one to see a collision on his FE then both planes should die. This is the only way to even out the differences in lag. Whether you believe a slower connect has the advantage or the faster...it still has to do with connection. Let's face it, if you collide in two planes it's a pretty safe bet both planes are gonna fall out of the sky.
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There is no lucky winner in collisions, there are only people who collided and people who did not.
Everyone who collides takes damage from it (usually death).
Everyone who does not collide does not take damage from the collision that they avoided.
Do not run into the other plane and you will not take damage.
I know this is terribly unrealistic, unfair, impossible for the elite to accept, but running into other planes hurts. Not running into other planes does not.
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"The weak link here is the internet and not AH."
Exactly. But the REAL weak link are the idiots (and there are a LOT online these days) who would ram you for a kill - regardless if they get shot down or not too.
Out of ammo? They'll ram.
Out of ACM? They'll ram.
If just doing it would piss people off? They'll ram.
Simply look at the amount of suicide "pilots" who drop & auger as well as all the folks who love to HO like there is no tommorow. Just add in mutual death rams and you'll see intentional ramming added to the repertoire of these morons in thier bag of "tricks." It would suck big time to fly in AH (or any other WWII aircombat game/sim)
The real solution is to learn to "fly" better and be more aware. Not ask for a global game fix or host setting to solve a minor problem due to a lack of experience.
All IMO...
Westy
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Originally posted by smack
Server Prediction! Oh boy reminds me of the Counter Strike Netcode.
What you just explain to me tells me that no fight on AH is fair. I can execute a nice merge to incoming bogie "but the server says that Im somewhere else" GREAT. And when I shot Im shoting a ghost " LAG " ......
No, what you see is what you get. If you shoot and hit someone on your FE, they take damage.
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from above...
No, what you see is what you get. If you shoot and hit someone on your FE, they take damage.
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maybe not today
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maybe not tomorrow
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but someday, and for the rest of your tail section.
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I had this great experience with a 109 with only wing.... I blew his wing off. And started heading back to base. Wingy yells out watch your six. I look back, I still see the wing fluttering to earth, and the 109 is doing a reversal and coming up on my six. I reverse, he dives towards the coast, and I think, oh it was just a fluke (looking at the plane fly by with no right wing). NO he reverses again and gets a shot off at me, before he starts to spiral to the ocean. He didnt hit me but this scenario took long enough for me to write a message to my friends and one to him asking him where he learned to fly with one wing.
Now that may be lag.... What I dont understand is that normally when you cause damage, it requires the server to contact there fe then come back with what damage you did to there plane. Mighty strange. probably just a really wierd fluke. I filmed a snipit of it, will have to go back and see if I can tell anything from it.
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90% of my collisions happen when I'm bouncing a spit or a n1k. I scream down from alt at 400mph and half way of getting a guns solution the spit/n1k loops up and turns to HO. I'm too fast to manouver away efficiently and collide to the t&b plane. Often both die, in some occasions the HO looper flies away and gets insulted by me :)
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Now that may be lag.... What I dont understand is that normally when you cause damage, it requires the server to contact there fe then come back with what damage you did to there plane. Mighty strange. probably just a really wierd fluke. I filmed a snipit of it, will have to go back and see if I can tell anything from it.
I agree that was probably some sort of lag related wierdness, that is not the way it normally works as you know.
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I did not read the whole thread, but I do have a question regarding collisions.
Has anyone done any testing as to which plane will take the damage, if both planes collide on both FE's?
Seems to me that most of my collisions only one plane will take damage. This could be that as most know, only one plane collided on one FE.
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Is it the plane that reports the collision first to the HTC server, that takes the damage?
How many times have you collided and then make a comment to the player you collided with, and then have that player respond "NO! You rammed me!"?
The other player knew there was collision. They knew that they were part of a collision, but took no damage.
Just wondering....
Thanks
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
90% of my collisions happen when I'm bouncing a spit or a n1k. I scream down from alt at 400mph and half way of getting a guns solution the spit/n1k loops up and turns to HO. I'm too fast to manouver away efficiently and collide to the t&b plane. Often both die, in some occasions the HO looper flies away and gets insulted by me :)
.... I insult'em too lol
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I've been in several collisions where the other person ended up streaming towards the ground completely disabled (flaming smking heavy too) and I've been able to continue flying albeit with damage (aileron/rudder/elevator missing, engine hurt etc etc ). So it's not always one person being damaged.
Westy
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Westy;
Have you ever thought you collided, heard the collision sound, watched the other plane turn into a fireball, yet took no damage?
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The slower you both are going the greater the chance you will both go down. cuz of the lack of distance you have travelled between net updates.
SKurj
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Collisions as modeled are a "feature" in AH. HT has already said he won't change it as that would "encourage raming" and he doesn't want that to happen. After all, EVERYONE knows that in flight collisions are always onesided in real life so only one plane is damaged. That makes AH more realistic and helps to maintain "immersion". :rolleyes:
:D
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thats not what he said. If someone colides with you on your fe but you dont see it on your fe and you both die tell me you wouldnt be on the bbs whining that "its stupid that i die with out even coming close to the other guy, Real immersive blah blah blah."
They way it is now if you see the colisions on your fe you colided not the other way round. It works the same as hit sprites. If you see the hits on your fe they count. They are sent through the server bac to the guy you hit and he recieves the damage.
You simply dunno what your talking about if you think theres a better way to do it. il2 has same colisions go read the board there and see folks complain about coliding and the other guy flying off.
wb is the same way go read agw. Theres a recent thread there call "roadkill colisions" Same exact whine as here.
Net lag doesnt allow for exact "real time" positions on both fes at once. Either way ht does it folks will whine. How ever the way its done now is if you see it you did it. it works as good as can be expected.
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In a way both dying would be more fair anyway..
Because if both would get damage at least the player who wasn't at fault would see both plummeting down.
It feels unfair to the other party if the other side flies away unharmed from the clear collision, especially if the collision was caused by the other player turning his plane into HO at close range.
It's a tricky issue.. Best thing naturally is to try to avoid it.
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both dying would create a WHHHHINE heard from here to .... well much further than we need to worry about.
The guy will say (and his film will prove) that he missed the opponents plane, due to netlag again, the guy who 'missed' will also be already quite a distance beyond the 'collision' before his FE is informed that the other player hit 'something'.
If your FE didn't see any contact, but your opponent's did, the message that contact occured will have to be then sent from his FE to the HOST and then to your FE at which time your plane goes boom. Depending on lag you may not hear any damage for half a second or more...
You complainers of the current system really need ta think more +)
Come up with a solution that makes sense and is possible in the 'real' world, and I am sure HT would listen.
Frankly at this point in time, I don't think such a thing exists...
IMO HT has developed the most whinefficient collision model possible.
SKurj
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mrripley you arent getting it. its always your fault in a collision. You are the only one responsible for what happens on your front end. You can whine till the cows come home it wont change that.
"He rammed me" is bs, its always "I collided on my fe" . Even if the guy diving on you from hi 6 if you see the collide and die and he doesnt then to him he made a perfect bounce.
He only gets a kill credit if he pings you with his guns.
There is no other way unless u turn collisions off. if you think hos are bad now wait till then.
You cant have both die because in most collisions the only occur on 1 guys front end. So lets say me and you are in a ho.
in my fe you fly through my cockpit but on your front end you ping me good and break away at d200.
But as you fly away you explode. You check your film and it shows you to be d200 to my 9 and i didnt ping you at all. Are you telling me you wont be on the bbs here whining your arse off till the cows come home every time that happens? :rolleyes:
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BS it's always your fault in a collision. I've had many people turn into me and no matter what I do to avoid I still take damage. Just because he didn't see it on his FE doesn't mean he didn't do something to cause a collision.
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If you think it's BS try this.
Go to the TA with a friend.
Sellect the same plane and loadout and sellect auto-take-off.
Time it well and take off together, same direction, and leave it on auto pilot/TO.
Have player A leave throttle at full and touch nothing.
Have player B use WEP or cut throttle (don't touch the joystick) a bit to try to get both planes in the same airspace (friendly collisions are off). When it appears to him that both planes are intersecting, player B should leave throttle at full (both planes should be left on auto take off the entire time.).
Both guys should then report to each other how they see each other. Player B may see player A in front of him at say 7, with his prop choppin up A's tail. But, player A will see player B no where near a collision. Take a good look at this situation from external veiw from player A's point of view.
Now after doing this come back here and tell us if this should this kill player A.
eskimo
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Eskimo try the same setup except this time youre shooting the tail of the player A.
The player a in this case sees the bullets fly totally to the other direction from his plane, yet he dies to the hits.
Now tell me why player A should die? Because thats how THAT works now. It's just a question of choices made.
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MrRipley no it doesn't....
your bullets fire where u are pointing... if 2 planes are traveling the same direction, at the same attitude, same altitude then their bullets will also travel the same path no matter what netlag comes into play
now u just losin it MrRipley... make sense at least please... and stay on topic...
U can't prove your point, and so try to deflect the subject... sheesh..
Start more of your own threads where we can address each 'inconsistency' of the game as u perceive it...
SKurj
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Skurj of course not in that exact setup like you described.
Nevertheless you and I both know that in a furball and when there's lag present it is common that when the enemy shoots, your FE shows him pointing totally away. His FE sees him as shooting you, not pointing away.
It's exactly the same thing as with collisions where only one party sees the hit.
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Originally posted by Wotan
unless you have a film i doudt many if any believe you :(
I dont have film, but I know it can be done. I have done it in a C47 before to protect my troops. And I have seen a member of my squad do it before to finish off a sortie when he was out of ammo.
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One factor that is ignmored here in the case of collisions is this. In the RL world a collision damaged BOTH planes, no matter if either pilot sees it or not. In the case of AH the player with the fastest connection loses the collision even if the player is NOT in a position to "see" the impact, as in a rear end collision. It has happened to me several times. I got rammed from behind and never knew the bandit was there. No pings, no tracers just instant tower reset.
In this game the target is damaged if the firing FE "see's it whether or not the target FE say's it "should be so" or not. Why should collisions be different?
To avoid "wholesale" abuse of collisions simply set it so that BOTH planes die and NO points are awarded either way. Now that there are 4 buffs in formation the idea that a single "suicide" fighter will dewstroy the mission is gone. Heck if the buffs are high, they can out maneuver the fighter anyhow.
That's my opinion and position, now flame away. :rolleyes:
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I agree with you Maverick. Besides ramming was used in real life too, as a last resort if guns were jammed and the pilot was desperate.
At the last stages of war the luftwaffe organised a 800 fighter ramming attack against the allied bombers. They used stripped 109's and volunteer pilots. In the end they got only about 200 fighters up, lost most of them and managed to drop maybe 20 bombers because the pilots were unexperienced and failed to hit the right spots of the bombers.
Anyway in AH if you try to ram a bomber it results in your death but the bomber flies away. It's just one thing that has gone to the altar of gameplay.
Of course the ramming could become a problem in AH where you have unlimited lives..
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Originally posted by Maverick
One factor that is ignmored here in the case of collisions is this. In the RL world a collision damaged BOTH planes, no matter if either pilot sees it or not. In the case of AH the player with the fastest connection loses the collision even if the player is NOT in a position to "see" the impact, as in a rear end collision. It has happened to me several times. I got rammed from behind and never knew the bandit was there. No pings, no tracers just instant tower reset.
In this game the target is damaged if the firing FE "see's it whether or not the target FE say's it "should be so" or not. Why should collisions be different?
To avoid "wholesale" abuse of collisions simply set it so that BOTH planes die and NO points are awarded either way. Now that there are 4 buffs in formation the idea that a single "suicide" fighter will dewstroy the mission is gone. Heck if the buffs are high, they can out maneuver the fighter anyhow.
That's my opinion and position, now flame away. :rolleyes:
Maverick,
Imagine that you are fast in a 109. There is a Lancaster above you flying straight and level. You zoom-climb attack and end up flying straight up 50' in front of his nose. From your FE, you missed him by 50'. On his FE, your plane may have hit his. Weather he actually was looking and "saw" you or not, or could have maneuvered out of the way in time or not does not matter, he collided with you. At your end of the game, you avoided a collision, at his end, he crashed. It does not matter who has the better connect, it's who's FE saw the collision!
I have got no problem with folks who want to try and collide with me or anyone else. If they are successful, good for them. What I wouldn't want to see, is a situation where I'm 100 behind an enemy, working a gun solution, and then his FE detects a collision, so we both die.
"In this game the target is damaged if the firing FE "see's it whether or not the target FE say's it "should be so" or not. Why should collisions be different?"
They aren't any different Maverick! Think about it!
eskimo
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its been explained 1000 times. Folks are just making stuff up with out testing it themselves. you and mrripley goto a h2h room and take turns ramming each other then come bac here and tell us what happened.
Have 1 guy fly level have 1 guy dive from hi 6 and ram dont fire your guns.
They will be ther first to on the bbs with a film showing how they werent even close but still died in a collision.
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Just as I can show you numerous films where I was hit by an enemy that wasn't pointing anywhere in my direction.
Where's the difference?
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thats the point doh
what u see on ur fe and what the other guy sees are different. You just proved what im saying.
On his fe you are in his sights and he sees himself pinging you. There fore you get the damage.
Had he rammed you on his fe where on your fe "he wasnt pointing at you" he would die you wouldnt. What you want is both of you to die in this circumstance. Then you would be whining about how you died in a collision when on your fe and on you film the guy wasnt even near you.
Thats difference. It aint rocket science. Its like talking to a rook errr .....rock in here sometimes.
:rolleyes:
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Collisions should be mutual, REGARDLESS of what the other person saw. I'm really getting sick of these people who play on what seems like 14.4 modems, warping, and hitting me, and then continuing on like nothing happened. The collision should kill both people, not whoever has the best connection.
I understand how collisions work right now, the point is that it shouldn't work that way. If one person gets a kill from a collision, he should be guarenteed to die as well. Nobody should ever WIN a collision. Either remove the ability to win them, or remove them completely, either way works, although mutual collisions would probably go a lot further to make people think twice about HO's.
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Innominate,
What you are suggesting would mean that any time an enemy aircraft is withing 300 yards of you, you could be involved in a collision, regardless of what you see. If the other guy has a porked connect, streatch that out to 2K!
Why should we think twice about HO's?
Pork the game to stop people from HOing...?
HTC has never discouraged HOs.
eskimo
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I would rather see odd collisions, as long as they're MUTUAL. Nobody should ever get a kill, and get away unscathed simply because they lag. Collisions ALWAYS favor the person with the worse connection. Mutual collisions would eliminate the free collision kills.
Other than that, turning collisions off is the only fair way to do it.
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Collisions do not favor the person with the slower connections.
They favor the person that avoids the collision.
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HT is trying to simulate "Real Time" here, and no matter how he tries, he will NEVER accomplish the task (at least not in my lifetime). What you are expecting is "Real Time" ... don't hold your breath.
Lag ... Smag ... whatever you want to call it all boils down to your connection to the internet/AH Server (PING), how fast the AH server can interpret all the data packets, how fast the results can be sent back to YOUR FE, and last how fast your FE can translate the data packets to visuals. While all this taking place, your FE must continue to present smooth and as close to viable visuals. This is where the "smoothing" technique comes into play as I described above. Without this technique, this game would be unplayable. This is the major contributor to your frustration. While all this transmission/translation is taking place, it MAY APPEAR that your opponent has crashed into you, BUT he really hasn't ... at least not on his FE.
It all boils down to ... "What you see is what you get". Again, If YOU see a collision then YOU will die. If your opponent sees a collision then HE will die. If both see a collision, then BOTH will die. Need I describe the other permutations ...
If you have a "lag" problem then get a better ISP, and a kick-ass video card inside a kick-ass computer and most of your lag problems will disappear. If you can't do this, then deal with it. I have a machine with all of the above and I very rarely get "lag" and if I do, it is usually around a field that has been completely trashed (smoke and fire) and there are more that 20+ planes fighting in close proximity. Things get a little jerky but because I understand what is taking place, I can deal with it, rather than get frustrated.
If you are in an HO and stay with the HO till the point of collision, then you are:
1) Trying to protect a goon at all costs.
2) Believe that you will shoot down the opponent before a collision occurs.
3) Playing "chicken".
2) whatever ...
Any of the reasons stated above or any other reason that you can think of, with the exception of "1", then you got what you deserved.
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I see both points on this however.......I can think of one way that net lag could negatively affect the player with the better/faster connect. Say two planes are flying in a straight line on a collision course (closure could be head to head or head to tail or any angle off I reckon). The plane with the laggier connect would "see" the collision after the plane with the better connect. If the the collision resulted in an explosion due to the crash then the plane with the better connect would see the collision first........right? Therefore it would blow up first and the plane with the laggy connect would simply fly through the explosion.
Now I agree with Wotan on this,.... it is STUPID to fly at another plane and NOT expect to collide (which is probably 90% of all collisions), however in the above case the laggy plane wins since the other plane blew first. In my experience it's best for me to simply avoid these situations. Especially since I don't shoot particularly well. There are some really, really good HO folks in here. The only problem I have with these people is that I can't shoot as well as they can :) I typically go for angles and generally my confidence soars when someone is going for repeated HO moves. I have however collided in scissors situations and that's just one of those things. I figure when ur in that situation the first guy that breaks off the fight dies (unless you have the E to extend away in which case......I'll not be scissoring with the other fella.) Frequently in the slow scissors or rolling scissors collisions both rides take damage since it's kind of a glancing collision that doesn't result in a big 'ole boom. At any rate the whole thing is cool as can be and usually collisions are a result of me being unwilling to disengage, which is 90% of the fun of this game.......unwavering determination in the face of overwhelming odds to the point of stupidity!
Zaphod
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Originally posted by Zaphod
I see both points on this however.......I can think of one way that net lag could negatively affect the player with the better/faster connect. Say two planes are flying in a straight line on a collision course (closure could be head to head or head to tail or any angle off I reckon). The plane with the laggier connect would "see" the collision after the plane with the better connect. If the the collision resulted in an explosion due to the crash then the plane with the better connect would see the collision first........right? Therefore it would blow up first and the plane with the laggy connect would simply fly through the explosion.
Now I agree with Wotan on this,.... it is STUPID to fly at another plane and NOT expect to collide (which is probably 90% of all collisions), however in the above case the laggy plane wins since the other plane blew first. In my experience it's best for me to simply avoid these situations. Especially since I don't shoot particularly well. There are some really, really good HO folks in here. The only problem I have with these people is that I can't shoot as well as they can :) I typically go for angles and generally my confidence soars when someone is going for repeated HO moves. I have however collided in scissors situations and that's just one of those things. I figure when ur in that situation the first guy that breaks off the fight dies (unless you have the E to extend away in which case......I'll not be scissoring with the other fella.) Frequently in the slow scissors or rolling scissors collisions both rides take damage since it's kind of a glancing collision that doesn't result in a big 'ole boom. At any rate the whole thing is cool as can be and usually collisions are a result of me being unwilling to disengage, which is 90% of the fun of this game.......unwavering determination in the face of overwhelming odds to the point of stupidity!
Zaphod
Zaphod,
What you described could only happen if BOTH player's FEs read the event as a collision (which is possible). In that case, however, both FEs would show a collision and both planes would be destroyed. If one player has a bad connect, crashes into the other, 2 seconds later the event is reported to the other player's FE, it's too late. That guy already crashed on his FE. Perhaps the kill may be awarded to the guy with the slower connect, but they both would die. (I think)
eskimo
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Originally posted by Innominate
Collisions should be mutual, REGARDLESS of what the other person saw. I'm really getting sick of these people who play on what seems like 14.4 modems, warping, and hitting me, and then continuing on like nothing happened. The collision should kill both people, not whoever has the best connection.
I understand how collisions work right now, the point is that it shouldn't work that way. If one person gets a kill from a collision, he should be guarenteed to die as well. Nobody should ever WIN a collision. Either remove the ability to win them, or remove them completely, either way works, although mutual collisions would probably go a lot further to make people think twice about HO's.
You DO NOT understand IMHO. If you do understand the concept, then you would not ask for mutal death REGARDLESS.
One more time ...
If you slam into me on your FE then you die.
If I break off the HO on you, on my FE, I do not die.
You are in control of your plane and have every opportunity to avoid the HO scenario and if you enter into the HO scenario then live with the possible circumstances.
It is my experience that if you stay with the HO after the opposing plane is D 1.0 and less, then a collision will most likely be the final outcome.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Zaphod,
What you described could only happen if BOTH player's FEs read the event as a collision (which is possible). In that case, however, both FEs would show a collision and both planes would be destroyed. If one player has a bad connect, crashes into the other, 2 seconds later the event is reported to the other player's FE, it's too late. That guy already crashed on his FE. Perhaps the kill may be awarded to the guy with the slower connect, but they both would die. (I think)
eskimo
I'm not sure either Eskimo2 :). I was speculating more than commenting from any source of real knowledge......and hoping for clarification and comments. I'm kinda hoping that someone who knows will read both our posts and tell us which one is right so we know :) I'll bet that if your right in this situation then Wotan is entirely correct in that the other guy never even saw a collision on his FE...just a near miss or something like that. It's hard sometimes to realize that what I see isn't what the other guy sees. Probably if the collision is a result of what appears to be an intentional ramming then the other guy was likely just going for a very close merge (and/or HO). Again......I'm just guessing on this.
Zaphod
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Eskimo is correct in his assesment.
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And on a side note it realy comes down to which will people find less frustrating, because there realy isn't a perfect solution.
1. Dieing to a collision when the bad guy is as far as 300 yards from you.
2. The bad guy not dieing when you collide with him.
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HiTech ... leave it just the way it is ... its the only logical way to handle it. There is no other way to look at it. I don't want to die, if I avoid the HO. Everybody is basically in control of their own fate in AH.
If the cause and effect are a know entity, and understood (most imporant part), then the results can be dealt with.
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No plans to SnapShot.
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Everyone keeps talking of collisions in HOs. Most of the collisions are in scissors or high speed passes from the rear or sides.
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Thanks ... HighTek ... :D
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Any Time SlapSnot:D
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"No plans to SnapShot."
Thank effing Cod. I'm book marking this topic for future referal for the bi monthly inquests that seem to come along. :)
Westy
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My pleasure ... LOWTech ... :D