Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: funkedup on April 25, 2002, 04:52:44 PM
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I knew we'd get an opponent for the F4F. :)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/natedog/a6m2.JPG)
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its gonna be a killer
box
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A-HOY CAP'IN I see land ahead.....I think it be MIDWAY sir!
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Did someone say F4F?
Well here's a FM2 I snapped a shot of last weekend at the Tillimook Air Museum.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I knew we'd get an opponent for the F4F. :)
Here is its Rival we need now :)
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You do know that it has been conclusively proven that the Flying Tigers never faced the A6M?
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Originally posted by funkedup
You do know that it has been conclusively proven that the Flying Tigers never faced the A6M?
No, but when Nitaka was, er, "being climbed," didn't Zekes and P-40s tangle?
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Sakai's mount...excellent choice, guys.
A6M2 Model 21, Tainan Air Group, PO1/c Saburo Sakai, Rabaul, 7 Aug 42.
Rocket
AH CPID Rokkit
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too bad I cant overclaim like the japs irl :(
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Originally posted by funkedup
You do know that it has been conclusively proven that the Flying Tigers never faced the A6M?
You sure? I read a book called "Diary of a Flying Tiger" and he metion facing A6's in addition to the more common IJA AC. I forget the models, but it had fixed gear.
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IJA did not use the A6M. IJN used A6M, but not in China between Fall 1941 and Fall 1943.
AVG misidentified IJAAF Ki-43 as IJN A6M.
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Pbirmingham you are correct, I forgot about the guys who got in the air at Pearl Harbor. Met one of them once. :)
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The fm2's gear looks awfully narrow. Must have been difficult to make a carrier landing in that thing.
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Nath[BDP],
Or the Germans, or the British, or the Americans, or the Russians, or the Italians, or the French, or the Chinese.
Go play somewhere else.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Pbirmingham you are correct, I forgot about the guys who got in the air at Pearl Harbor. Met one of them once. :)
I hope you bought him drinks :)
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Japs would be most fun to overclaim with tho, 'cause then I can increase my score by 75%. Not possible with Germs or Amis
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A6M and P40 and P39 fought against each other a lot. Nex we need an early P40, up to an E, and an early P39/P400.
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where u guys gonna fly all these neato new early war planes?
lazs
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CT, TOD's, Scenarios, Offline H2H, LAN
Jordi
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Originally posted by funkedup
IJA did not use the A6M. IJN used A6M, but not in China between Fall 1941 and Fall 1943.
AVG misidentified IJAAF Ki-43 as IJN A6M.
I know that. I said in "adittion" to IJA AC. The author states facing Hayabusa's, and more often its fixed gear predacessor's. However he does say that on occasion they faced a new AC, the a6M. Its a good book, you oughta check it out. Very short read.
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Overclaims... the Germans were the best due to the rigid requirements they had to meet in order to claim a victory. Per Edward Sims the German claims fall to within 10% (IIRC) of the losses reported in records.
The ones that were off by simply stunning amounts (in one case claiming over 100 downed German fighters vs. the recorded German loss of 1 (!) fighter were the U.S. bomber crews.)
So how did the Japanese go about recording and substantiating kills?
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Originally posted by HFMudd
So how did the Japanese go about recording and substantiating kills?
A better question would be "How does Nath go about record and substantiating trolls?"
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by lazs2
where u guys gonna fly all these neato new early war planes?
lazs
same place I fly the Spit I. The Main Arena.
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Nath[BDP],
No, you're right. You'll have to contain yourself to merely claiming 300% of the aircraft killed, just like the Germans in the Battle of Britain.
HFMudd,
BS. The Germans were just as sloppy as everyone else. There is a faction that likes to tout them as being the best at everything, but this faction has blinders on.
Any combantant that has the air fighting over its land territory is much more accurate.
Consider that in the Battle of Britain the Germans claimed 3,500 kills or so and the British actually lost 1,100-1,200 or so (I've seen the numbers but I don't have them in front of me). The British in the same time period claimed about 3,000 and got about 2,000. The British claims, which have twice the accuracy of the German claims, are still 1.5 times the number they actually got.
The Japanese didn't have an actual policy and they didn't award kills to individual pilots like the western powers did. Not until the end do you see Japanese fighters with kill markers on them. The other thing to consider is that when wreckage fell on Germany or Britain it could be used to confirm a kill, the Japanese were mostly fighting over water so there was no wreckage.
Nath[BDP] is correct in technicality, but not in tone. He implies that there was intentional fraud on the part of Japanese pilots. I'm sure there was some, but no more than on the part of Germans, Brits or Yanks, maybe less as there was no incentive or rewards based on indiviual kills in the IJA or IJN. The IJA and IJN did track total kills for a squadron.
Saburo Sakai has never said that he absolutely got 64 kills. He thought that he had at the time, but he always acknowleged that kill claiming was imprecise at best.
The reason that I am after Nath[BDP] on this is because he is trying to demean ans diminish the skills and efforts of a group of people and he is using their race as his basis.
You'll hear a lot of Luftwaffe fans praise Hans-Joachim Marsaille as quite possibly the best fighter pilot ever. He was undeniably very, very good and possibly was the best. However, his kill total is significantly less that he claimed. Cross referencing his claims with British records reveals that he sometimes claimed more kills in a fight than the British had aircraft in the area. This takes nothing away from him, I doubt he over claimed intentionally, but it does show that over claiming happened to all sides.
Well, except the Finns. Russian records show that the Finns got more than they claimed. But Finland is the exception.
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I agree with Karnak on this one.
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Ammo sorry I misread the IJA thing. I'll check out that book. A lot of AVG pilots report encounters with "Zeroes" but they never confirmed this by examining wreckage, and IJN records show that there were no Zero units in China during the AVG's campaign. The Oscar and Zeke look quite similar and it was quite common in WW2 for pilots to misidentify enemy aircraft.
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Most likely true, I just didnt realize it. In the early days before pearl harbor, the AVG was cutting their teeth on betty's and (the model escapes me ) but an early japanese fighter with fixed gear. It turned better than the KI-43I hayabusa, but was very slow, and only armed with twin 7.62's.
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Has any other counties over claiming had a serios effect on the outcome of a battle like the jap over claiming at Gualdicanal did....
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Pongo,
Yes. The German overclaiming in the Battle of Britain seriously affect their strategey. The high command was taking the claims at face value and making decisions based on the idea that the British were down to their last 100 Hurris and 50 Spits when they still were facing about 600 RAF fighters.
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BS. The Germans were just as sloppy as everyone else. There is a faction that likes to tout them as being the best at everything, but this faction has blinders on.
I stand corrected. While I course know that the Germans were aided quite a bit in calculations by the fact that the wreckage fell on their side most of the time (just as in WWI for that matter) it did not occur to me that the Battle of Britain would probably provide a good counter example.
I have a question as regards the BoB though. I'm assuming that the 3,500 includes aircraft destroyed on the ground does it not? If so, one can easily imagine that number being greatly inflated. Do you happen to know how many of the 3,500 claims are from those destroyed on the ground vs. in the air and how close those two numbers come to reality if taken independantly?
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The Germans did the same thing with the number of Russian tanks and infantry. I don't remember the actual numbers at all but even after having, by their (the German's) calculations, destroyed every Russian tank two and three times over, they *still* would assume that the Russians were now running out.
I would imagine it is just the nature of things when you have to report to a superior you fear or because you can't accept being wrong. Heck, here in the US, each and everyday decisions are made based on the numbers some nose-bleed-level-manager *wants* to hear rather than the actual costs.
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Of course, the Russians DID seem to have another 100 million troops to use...
Aub
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I have a question as regards the BoB though. I'm assuming that the 3,500 includes aircraft destroyed on the ground does it not? If so, one can easily imagine that number being greatly inflated. Do you happen to know how many of the 3,500 claims are from those destroyed on the ground vs. in the air and how close those two numbers come to reality if taken independantly?
I don't think the Germans claimed aircraft destroyed on the ground, but the numbers were small anyway.
Less than 20 Spits or Hurricanes were destroyed on the ground, although some costal command and bomber command aircraft should be added to that. Probably less than 100 in total though.
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hehehehheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh ^^
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"You'll hear a lot of Luftwaffe fans praise Hans-Joachim Marsaille as quite possibly the best fighter pilot ever. He was undeniably very, very good and possibly was the best. However, his kill total is significantly less that he claimed. Cross referencing his claims with British records reveals that he sometimes claimed more kills in a fight than the British had aircraft in the area. This takes nothing away from him, I doubt he over claimed intentionally, but it does show that over claiming happened to all sides. "
Yep.. he claimed kills with as little as 2 rounds of 7.62 ammo on planes that weren't even up that day.
Saki claimed a fight with 6 Hellcat pilots that lasted for an hour or more. No Hellcats were anywhere near the area this "happened".
even the "blond knight of germany" claimed 3 mustang kills on a day when no mustangs were in the area. In fact, no mustangs were lost in aerial combat with fighters that day.
we don't even want to look at the claims of U.S. gunners on 4 engined bombers.
lazs
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Purdy, now we need a Japanese looking carrier for the plane.
Looks like the movie 'Pearl harbor' there with Japanese planes flying by an obviously US carrier.
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Now, all we need is a B5N and a D3A for that pretty Zeke to escort. :)
Oh yeah, and an SBD-5 would round out the American side of a Midway Naval planeset.
If we get just those three crates, we can run scenarios of Coral Sea, Midway, even Pearl Harbor. Then there's the myriad of TOD's that can use those, and the CT guys would probably find them useful as well.
The only bad thing about those early war planes is that they won't stand much of a chance in the MA.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Saki claimed a fight with 6 Hellcat pilots that lasted for an hour or more. No Hellcats were anywhere near the area this "happened".
Didn't Sakai also lose an eye when he dove on a "Wildcat" that turned out to be an Avenger with a tailgunner? Things are confusing at 400mph
-Sikboy
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Hmmm, I thought he lost the eye by closing up on a small group of SBD's from behind and below only to find that once he got close they were really Avengers.
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Originally posted by HFMudd
Hmmm, I thought he lost the eye by closing up on a small group of SBD's from behind and below only to find that once he got close they were really Avengers.
That could be what I'm thinking of. Thanks :)
-Sikboy
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Actually guys, it was a flight of TBF Avengers that he closed up on. He mistook the Avengers for Wildcats, and the rear gunners hosed his Zero up pretty good. It's amazing he was able to get back to base considering his injuries.
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Originally posted by banana
Actually guys, it was a flight of TBF Avengers that he closed up on. He mistook the Avengers for Wildcats, and the rear gunners hosed his Zero up pretty good. It's amazing he was able to get back to base considering his injuries.
That's what I said the first time lol.
-Sikboy
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IJA and fixed gear would most likely make the flying tigers opponents Ki-27's
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They were "nates", at least that was the allied code name for them.
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To the person (I think it was wklink) who asked about the Japanese carriers in "Pearl Harbor", you are correct.... It was an American carrier that played the part. It was the Lexington (Lady Lex or Blue Ghost) that played the part. She is on display in Corpus Christi and there were a lot of people that were mad that she had to play the part of a Japanese carrier. FYI, The Lady Lex also played the part of the Hornet, and the B-25s did take off from her deck. (They were put there with a crane.)
Hope this helps.
Missile:D
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Originally posted by Karnak
Nath[BDP],
Consider that in the Battle of Britain the Germans claimed 3,500 kills or so and the British actually lost 1,100-1,200 or so (I've seen the numbers but I don't have them in front of me). The British in the same time period claimed about 3,000 and got about 2,000. The British claims, which have twice the accuracy of the German claims, are still 1.5 times the number they actually got.
It is usually that country this fight over it own territory claims more correct than the attacking side. It is hard to claim 15 kills when 5 planes wreckage is found. Actually it does not matters if it German or Brithish pilot. For example every single Pipz Prillers claims were real kill, Marcele had 76% of actual kills, and best RAF pilot Thomas Pattle only 46%.
Fariz
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Originally posted by Karnak
Pongo,
Yes. The German overclaiming in the Battle of Britain seriously affect their strategey. The high command was taking the claims at face value and making decisions based on the idea that the British were down to their last 100 Hurris and 50 Spits when they still were facing about 600 RAF fighters.
That is equivilent(The japanese thought they had destroyed the defenders at Henderson several times over and cut back on raids and reinforcments). And I had read that Karnak..thanks for the reminder.