Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fdiron on April 25, 2002, 07:35:02 PM
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Was the F4U-1 significant in the air war in the Pacific? Never really hear much about the F4U-1, only the F4U-1d.
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The Marines thought so... ;)
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f4u1 is becoming one of my favorite planes in AH :)
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This was the most used version of the corsair. The 1-d is in some squadrons in the second half of 44 and the f4u-4 only appeared as the war was ending.
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Corsair is my favorite still has been ever since I started AH :) I like the F4u-1C a few shots from its 4x20 mms and the enemy KABOOM :D
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F4U-1 is a fun plane to take into the arena. However, when climbing after takeoff I'm constantly looking to see if I've left the parking break on or something because it climbs like a pig! Which makes that other thread about the F4U's climb rate very interesting and one which I'm following.
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I've seen a few websites list the F4U-1s climbrate at 2900fpm. Seems on track to me. At higher altitudes the F4U could outclimb the A6m.
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Fdiron,
The F4U-1 saw more action than any other F4U in the war by far. It probably accounted for 75% of all F4U kills.
Remember the F4U was the primary fighter in USN/USMC in 1943. In 1943 most air combat was land based. In 1944 the F4U scored almost no victories. Less than 200 for sure. 1944 was the year of the Hellcat. 1945 saw the F4U on carriers so many victories were scored but 1943 was the prime F4U time for sure.
Just look at Boyington, Walsh, Kepford and Hanson. All 20+ kill F4U aces and all of them scored 99% of there kills in 1943. Ken Walsh got one in 1945.
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f4u1 is becoming one of my favorite planes in AH
Citabria:
I really like the F4UD, but I haven't flown the F4U1 that I can remember.
Is there any advantage the the 1 has over the D that you leverage, or is it just that you like to fly earlier planesets for the challenge? :)
I am really gettin sold on the F4UD, and am going to fly it until HTC perks it. :) And face it, good as it is, it may get popular, and being a Corsair it WILL get perked.
What a glorious day that will be! 3 out of 4 Hogs perked! Just shows ya how deadly that puppy really was. If it had been on the European theatre in numbers, along with the Pony, the LW would have bled even worse than it did. :D
AKEagle+
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F4U-1 is a little bit faster than the -1D (a very little bit), and it turns a liiiitle bit better. It has a nastier stall though.
As far as the F4U-1 or -1D being "uber"... I don't think so. It is a good plane, but I think the F6F and P38 have it beat overall.
F4U-1c is in a class all its own, but thats just due to the firepower.
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yeah, the only thing the f4u can do well is dive. If it turns it will find itself dead quite quickly. If it goes vertical same thing happens.
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I have been flying the F4u quite a bit. I fly the F4U-1 to get lots of perkies. It is 6 or 7 mph faster than the F4U-1d. F4Us are hard to land. I always end up breaking a wing.
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Originally posted by fdiron
I have been flying the F4u quite a bit. I fly the F4U-1 to get lots of perkies. It is 6 or 7 mph faster than the F4U-1d. F4Us are hard to land. I always end up breaking a wing.
FDIron,
The trick to landing the f4u-* is simple, once you know how.
Try and touch down just above stall, pull up all flap to reduce lift, then pull back on the stick.
This forces the tail onto the ground. Once the tail is down you can steer with your rudder.
Since someone toled me about this I have not ground looped a F4U.
Regards,
Grayarea.
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I just turn the engine off and glide the sucker in at near stall and full flaps out. front wheels hit the ground, slam the stick backward and smack the tail into the ground. Plane stops almost instantly hehe. F4U is teh only plane ive found besides the yak that can land and stop in a few metres of dirt ;)
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For good landing, I employ 2 notches of flap and i usually touch ground allways under 170 and I employ left wheel brake to maintain in runway and when tail wheel touch ground both brakes.
any secret to take off a hog with 2000 lbs bombs, rockets 100% fuel from a CV?
Hog's climb rate is correct in this game. I allways think Corsair near outclimb Zero, Oscar, or Frank since 10k then total outclimb them
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Originally posted by RatPenat
any secret to take off a hog with 2000 lbs bombs, rockets 100% fuel from a CV?
Here is what I do, without backing up. :cool:
In sequence:
%100 Throttle +WEP
As I roll when I get parrallel with the Superstructure I lower Full Flaps.
(it takes a bit for the flaps to go Full, which gives you a little extra speed than if you went Full Flaps before you start rolling)
At the end of the deck I hit "x" to turn off auto-takeoff.
when you roll of the edge she'll sink a bit, as soon as your off the deck raise gear immediatly or the wheels will hit the water.
The stall horn will be going mad, it's a fine line between keeping her in the air and stalling out, small carefull stick movements are necessary.
As you level and start to climb raise flaps a notch at a time until you get your speed up.
You should practice this offline or in the TA until it's second nature. Use the External view to see how close you get to the water :eek:
Good Luck
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if you are a little hot on the landing speed in any of the hogs try pushing the stick forward like you are gonna drag the prop. u can use a little brake. as it gets slower pull back and plant the rear wheel and brake hard.
The -1 is about 5 mph faster than the D on the deck (if that) but accelerates so slowly that you will not be able to use the speed difference. It stalls rough and has obstructed vision. turn is slightly better and zoom climb is about the same. Dive is the same (very good) as is roll rate.
Real dash ones climbed and excelerarted on a par with planes like the 51B, 190a5 and zero in side by side testing.
a lot of the goodyear -1's didn't even have folding wings or tail hooks and were much lighter.
you don't really need to take more than 50% fuel in the -1.
lazs
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Yes, the F4u-1 and the F4u-1a were significant. Pappy Boyington scored his kills in them as did the rest of the Blacksheep. Then there were the Jolly Rogers of the US Navy that flew them as well; they thought it was the best fighter plane in the Pac. theatre.
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>>As far as the F4U-1 or -1D being "uber"... I don't think so. It is a good plane, but I think the F6F and P38 have it beat overall. <<
Not in performance it doesn't. And in the MA it comes down to individual skill, barring weird conditions in the arena of course.
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>>any secret to take off a hog with 2000 lbs bombs, rockets 100% fuel from a CV? <<
Yeah, use full flaps and let them out just as you leave the deck. Very tricky to do, takes a lot of attention.
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If you want to know how the F4U-1 stacked up against it's enemies you should read the first person accounts of the men who flew them in combat or in flight comparisons against captured enemy aircraft.
Captain Eric Brown of the RNAF is considered by many to be one of the best pilots of WWII and the post-war period. He has logged tens of thousands of hours testing hundreds of combat aircraft. The RNAF operated the Seafire, Wildcat, Hellcat, Corsair, and many other aircraft. Brown tested them all, and flew some of them in combat. Not being affiliated with any aircraft manufacturer, his comments about them can be considered relatively free of bias ( He can be forgiven, perhaps, for his preference for the Spitfire. After all, he was only being patriotic!)
In his book "Duels in the Sky" Captain Brown offered the following comments about the F4U-1:
1. The roll rate was exceptional, even at high speeds. (He seemed to prefer the 190's roll rate, however.)
2. Excelleration was brisk for such a large aircraft.
3. The climb was disappointing, in light of the power available.
4. It had a high top speed, which would be an asset in the environment of the Pacific.
5. Turn-rate was poor at low speeds, requiring the Corsair to make high-speed attacks against its more nimble Japanese opponents.
In comparisons between the F4U-1 and the F6F-3 versus the FW-190A, Brown made the following comments:
F4U-1 vs. FW-190A: "Having flown both aircraft a lot, I know which one I would prefer. The FW-190 could not be bested by the Corsair."
F6F-3 vs. FW-190A: "By 1943 the FW-190A was beginning to be a bit long in the tooth. While the F6F-3 was a relative newcomer the superb technology designed into the FW by Kurt Tank was not outdated. The Hellcat had broken the iron grip of Zeke in the East. The Fw-190, however, was a far tougher opponent. Risk to the Hellcat would be severe. This would be a combat so finely balanced that only individual pilot skill could determine the outcome."
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Don
>>any secret to take off a hog with 2000 lbs bombs, rockets 100% fuel from a CV? <<
Yeah, use full flaps and let them out just as you leave the deck. Very tricky to do, takes a lot of attention.
Alternative - full flaps down before you rev the engine, trim the elevator all the way up (on your gauge), 4 notches of right aileron.
Wind up the throttle gradually and manage the torque as you move. Remember the rudder gains effectiveness as you accelerate. Kick in WEP half way down the deck.
When you leave the deck, the plane will try to roll left so be ready to give opposite aileron. Don't let the nose rise and get your gear up immediately. Raise your flaps gradually only as your speed rises. No climbing at all until you are well over 100 knots. No tight turns. Turn the WEP off. Re trim by kicking in and out of auto pilot.
Even an awful pilot like me can get off the deck w 2,000 lbs of bombs and all the gas I can carry 3 out of 4 times.
-Blogs
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Originally posted by Don
>>As far as the F4U-1 or -1D being "uber"... I don't think so. It is a good plane, but I think the F6F and P38 have it beat overall. <<
Not in performance it doesn't. And in the MA it comes down to individual skill, barring weird conditions in the arena of course.
Put the sucker in reverse and back up the end of the deck. The spawn point leaves a good third of the deck behind you.
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Originally posted by Tac:
yeah, the only thing the f4u can do well is dive. If it turns it will find itself dead quite quickly. If it goes vertical same thing happens.
Interestingly Citabria likes to turnfight a6m's in it and actually outturn them in vertical. No wonder he likes the f4u-1.
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F4U retains energy very well, allowing you to dive on your opponent, aim, fire, climb away, and repeat. The .50 cals allow for extremely long range deflection shots on opponents. I've hit deflection shots out to 800 yards before in the hog, though 500 to 600 yards is the norm. The F4Us huge ammo load allows you to 'spray and pray' with ease.
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eric brown was one man flying a few worn out planes. We don't even know what version, prop etc. he was using. His tests are very "seat of the pants" and have no side by side comparissons.... While his book is interesting and a fun read it still is not much for "testing" purposes. U.S. tests against a 190a5 with several pilots showed that there was no move that the 190 coyuld do that both the -1 or hellcat could not follow but that the 190 could not follow either plane if they wished to evade. . Navy tests against the 51b showed the Corsair to be superior in allmost every way. There were also tests with the Corsair against captured and reconditioned (and running on high octane U.S. fuel) Zekes and 38's and 51's. The main thing about all the comparisson tests is that they all pretty much say the same thing. In side by side tests the pilots all wanted to be in the Hog in a combat situation.
The hog was a very good plane. It would have been one of the best fighters of the war even if it didn't have the ability to carry thousands of pounds of bombs, take off from carriers, fire 6 fifty caliber guns for over 30 seconds and fly over 1300 miles without a refuel and take as much battle damage as any plane in the war.
lazs
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Very good information Lazs2. If I recall correctly, the F4u was still in frontline service with some South American countries as late as the 1970s. During the so called 'soccer war', F4Us actually shot down P51s.
The U.S. navy evaluated the P51 for carrier duty. They found the P51 to only be superior to the F4U at extremely high altitudes. The F4U accelerated faster, had a faster top speed and better turn rate at low to moderate altitudes (0-20k).
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It might be noted that the Navy's testing wasn't exactly unbiased, in that the most commonly quoted comparison involves an overloaded P-51B up against a souped-up F4U-1A. Later tests tended to use P-51D's against F4U-4's. Since it was perfectly obvious that the P-51 would have made a lousy carrier plane, I think those tests were just another part of the Army-Navy rivalry.
Those tests aside, the F4U and P-51 were more or less equally matched overall, no doubt about that. I too wonder about the F4U-1D's climbrate....I had always been under the impression that with the paddle prop its climb was between that of the F6F and P-38.
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What I like best about the F4UD in the AH FM is:
BIG ammoo load, so I can afford to spray n pray (take low % shots) :)
The energy retention is really something to leverage :)
Turns well at speed! You can take snap shots on a high speed bounce. :)
And what I really like is that I am 41/8 with it this tour :D
What blows my mind is that it has a less than a 1:1 K/D in the arena! :confused:
AKEagle+
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Originally posted by Citabria
f4u1 is becoming one of my favorite planes in AH :)
I don't suppose you have some films of this plane in action that you would like to share? I am still trying to learn the F4U, mainly the -1D at the moment. I have a greater than 1:1 K/D ratio in it so far, but mostly bounces or cherry picking. I usually die if the fight turns into a 1 on 1.
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If you have an altitude advantage over someone in a one on one fight, then all you really need to do is dive, fire, pull-out and repeat. However, when you dont have the altitude advantage, its important that (1) your airpseed be around 300, and (2) you know what areas you can out perform the other aircraft.
Sometimes you just gotta hold down on the trigger and pray that you kill him before he kills you :)
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Yep... I like the fifties and large ammo load.. I take all the low percentage shots. The problem with the fifties is that they are real "assits" makers in today's MA. You have to get a couple of good snapshots, at the very least, on a con to bring him down and any cannon plane can take the kill away if he so desires.
I fly the Hog incorectly most of the time... Low and slow and on the edge of the stall most of the time.
As for all the comparrison data... I like to look at all the side by side testing that I can get and then see if there are points that match up. Most of the stuff shows not much difference in climb/acceleration between the 51, 190a, corsair and hellcat... I don't like to look at the factory or the service testing of one model of any plane because there are so many variables... How can you test climb on a 109 in Bavaria in the winter and then use that data to show how much better it climbs than a P47 in the Mojave desert on a summer day at 120 degrees in the shade? In factory or service testing you rarely know what the loadout is and sometimes even whatpower settings but in comparisson testin it seems like they do their best to even up the variables.
lazs
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There is a very good thread in the "Help and Training" section about the SpitIX vrs F6F-5. Frankly I luv the F6F, if has many excellent qualities however I would rather take a F4U-1 into that fight very time.
In an artical by BadBoy on xHAMMERx's webpage he defines the fight between a SpitIX and F4U-1. In his analysis the F4U holds all the cards. What most people don't realize is that the F4U can outturn the Spit even down to very low speeds. The trick is to always be faster the Spit. In fact as long as you are faster than the spit your instantanious turn rate will always be superior. If you become slower that the Spit disengage. by diving and rolling away. The F6F cannot survive this because it does not have a better high speed roll than the spit and it's max speed at low alt does not allow for adequate separation.
I almost feel like I don't want newbies to fly the F4U because it is such a unique bird people don't take time to learn it. They get in, got killed a couple times and quit it.
There is no A/C type in AH that one on one that an F4U-1 or -1D cannot handle with possible exception of the Spit XIV(262 not included). P-51's are the toughest for me because there is not than much of an advantage in any one area to exploit.
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F4U-1c is a spit14 killer.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
There is a very good thread in the "Help and Training" section about the SpitIX vrs F6F-5. Frankly I luv the F6F, if has many excellent qualities however I would rather take a F4U-1 into that fight very time.
In an artical by BadBoy on xHAMMERx's webpage he defines the fight between a SpitIX and F4U-1. In his analysis the F4U holds all the cards. What most people don't realize is that the F4U can outturn the Spit even down to very low speeds. The trick is to always be faster the Spit. In fact as long as you are faster than the spit your instantanious turn rate will always be superior. If you become slower that the Spit disengage. by diving and rolling away. The F6F cannot survive this because it does not have a better high speed roll than the spit and it's max speed at low alt does not allow for adequate separation.
I almost feel like I don't want newbies to fly the F4U because it is such a unique bird people don't take time to learn it. They get in, got killed a couple times and quit it.
There is no A/C type in AH that one on one that an F4U-1 or -1D cannot handle with possible exception of the Spit XIV(262 not included). P-51's are the toughest for me because there is not than much of an advantage in any one area to exploit.
I like the F4U, and fly it from time to time. However, I can't agree with your statements about turn rate. As it stands, I kill Corsairs by the bushel, and rarely suffer a loss to them. I never suffer a loss if I see them. Diz Dean's analysis of the turning ability of U.S. WWII fighters puts the F4U at the bottom of the list in terms of turning ability. Let's compare the F4U-1D to the P-38L. It (the Corsair) is inferior in acceleration and climb. I have no difficulty in out-turning the F4U in the P-38. Even in a dive, the Corsair is not markedly superior to the P-38, but only in peak speed, as the P-38 accelerates better until it hits compressibility. At high speed, nothing out-rolls the P-38. If I had to take any American fighter up against the Spitfire, I'd take the P-38 over everything else. Why? Because I'll win 9 times out of 10. I dont have that level of confidence with the F4U.
My regards,
Widewing
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ill agree with that the P38 is superiour to the spit
:cool:
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I'd take AH spit ix against P38 anytime.
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The F4U is superior to the P38 in the regard that it can dive thousands of feet onto its target, fire off an accurate burst, and then regain the altitude to repeat this maneuver again. The P38 is not able to do this as well as the F4U. I have had an F4U in a dive over 600mph and sucessfully pulled out before. Try that in a P38.
The F4U-1 has 157 kills and has been killed 122 times against the P-38L.
The F4U-1D has 537 kills and has been killed 483 times against the P-38L.
The F4U-1D has 1006 kills and has been killed 1181 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
The P-38L has 956 kills and has been killed 1282 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
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the mine scores better on all :)
why dive ?
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Lazs2,
On what do you base your statement that Eric Brown was flying only worn out planes?
Most of the evaluations in his book are based on his experiences flying these aircraft during World War II. If memory serves, he was one of the RNAF's main test pilots. His responsibilities included flying the F4U-1 and F6F-3 in comparison with ME-109s and FW-190s for the purpose of providing British pilots with performance data that they could use in combat against these enemy aircraft. He also flew the Corsair and Hellcat onto and off of British carriers. The enemy aircraft he flew against may have been captured, but they were not junk, having been refurbished by the RNAF or the RAF and brought as close as was possible to operational status.
I further reiterate, the evaluations of an actual combat pilot carry more weight than those of such "arm-chair" fighter jocks such as those that fly Aces High.
Regards, Shuckins
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his tests were his opinion and nothing else. They were not side by side tests at all. Every pilot has planes that suit him and planes that he likes over others. EB is a very small man and has stated that U.S planes were huge with huge cockpits.
I reiterate. i like side by side testing with the most data. I like to look at as many different side by side tests done by as many groups that I can find. If that is being an AH armchair pilot then so be it. I would feel foolish taking one mans opinion over so many others and so much other data.
widewing.. he means instantaneous turn. most of us who fly -1's don't have a lot of trouble with spits. I have the most trouble with lag7. 51's are a problem if there is more than one of em working together.
lazs
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Widewing,
I love the book "America's Hundred Thousand" and I have met Francis Dean, been in his house and talked to him. He is 76 years old and sharp as a whip. He also edited the "report of Joint Fighter Conferance". That is where he got his 3G stall speed and calculated his Clmax. At that meeting pilots that flew these fighters listed there 3G stall speeds during their flights.
The condition was no flaps 3G stall.
The F4U-1D was given an average 3G stall in Knots of 150knts and a range of stalls from 130Knots to 190Knots.
By contrast at the same meeting the FG-1A. The same exact A/C had an average 3G stall of 130Knots.
The spoiler strip which is discussed way to much was installed on all A/C after the summer of 1943. This test was in the fall of 1944.
Also at the meeting the F8F-1 was tested and had an average 3G stall of 150Knots to the left and 190knots to the right.
Through out the report knots and MPH are changed back and fourth repeatedly. Also the A/C were flown for evauluation by pilots of differnent services. Not flown to determine flight parameters. Based on the results of the two F4U's I think it is fair to say the results are vague at best and certainly not a referance for what Mr. Dean used them for 50 years later.
Having said that the F4U was rated by the pilots that flew it as such. (the F4U was flown by 13 Army pilots, 4 Navy, 8 Contract, 3 British)
Catagories
Best fighter below 25,000FT.
F8F = 30%
P-51D= 29%
F4U-1D= 27%
F7F= 6%
F6F = 2%
P-38L received no mention
Best fighter Above 25,000FT.
P-47D = 45%
P-51D = 39%
F4U = 7%
F6F = 3%
P-38L= 1%
Best Fighter Bomber
F4U-1D = 32%
P-47 = 19%
Mosquito = 14%
F6F = 12%
F7F =11%
P-51D =7%
P-38L = 5%
Based on the entirety of the report I would say that the Fighter Capabilties of the F4U speak for themselves.
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Originally posted by fdiron
The F4U is superior to the P38 in the regard that it can dive thousands of feet onto its target, fire off an accurate burst, and then regain the altitude to repeat this maneuver again. The P38 is not able to do this as well as the F4U. I have had an F4U in a dive over 600mph and sucessfully pulled out before. Try that in a P38.
The F4U-1 has 157 kills and has been killed 122 times against the P-38L.
The F4U-1D has 537 kills and has been killed 483 times against the P-38L.
The F4U-1D has 1006 kills and has been killed 1181 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
The P-38L has 956 kills and has been killed 1282 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
Today I encountered two Spits (looked like Mk.IXs) and a P-51 while flying at 24k in a P-38. All of these aircraft were higher than me, leading a horde of B-17s. I simply flew right underneath them and nailed a B-17 in a head-on attack. All three fighters had reversed and were coming down on me. I popped the dive flaps and spilt-s'd for the deck. It was no contest, I was 4k ahead of them and pulling 550+ true. Yeah, the P-38 was buffeting like mad, but so what? At 6k, I eased out of the dive using trim. Both Spits endd up below me about 5.5k behind. The Mustang didn't follow. At this point, I went vertical into an Immelmann, ending up at 9k alt, well above the Spitfires. I extended to d4k, and turned into them. On the merge, I pinched and blasted a wing off of one Spit, who was caught by surprise (pinching on the merge is generally unexpected). The other Spitfire, lagging behind the first, half-looped, and rolled out about 2k behind me. But that killed his speed and I pulled out to nearly 5k, reversing again. As I head towards the Spit, the Mustang shows up, diving on my six. I headed straight for the Spitfire, who wisely turned away to avoid the fate of his wingy. As the Mustang closed to 700 yards, I broke hard right, and instantly reversed left. As the P-51 overshot, I got a burst into his radiator, and he headed for the deck running for his life. Meanwhile, the second Spity is closing from behind now. I begin a gentle right turn, causing the Spit to pull lead. As I tighten the turn, the Spit commits, turning even harder. Once he's where I wanted him, I barrel roll left, and then skid right. The Spit squirts out in front of me. I fire a long burst, and his right elevator flutters away. He trys to jink, but my next shot kills him. I RTB no worse for the wear. Later, I added an F4U-1D and a pair of F6Fs, as well as a dozen or so others during the course of sorties.
Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Make them fight your fight.
The K/D numbers merely reflect the fact that most pilots have no idea how fly the P-38 to its full potential. Master the P-38, and you can fight and defeat anything. You may not win every fight, but you will win most of them. If you find yourself slow and low, pop 1 notch of flaps, and it can hang with the Niki and F6F, turning as tight or tighter.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thats a nice story widewing. An F4U-1 could have done the same thing. The F4U-1 is faster than the P38L from sea level to 20,000 feet. The F4U is also a more durable aircraft.
The P38 is undoubtedly an easier plane to fly than the F4U. However, the Corsair is a more survivable aircraft. I am sure there are just as many new pilots flying the F4U incorrectly as there are flying the P38L.
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guess that proves my theory that guys that fly at high alt aren't very good.
lazs
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Originally posted by fdiron
Thats a nice story widewing. An F4U-1 could have done the same thing. The F4U-1 is faster than the P38L from sea level to 20,000 feet. The F4U is also a more durable aircraft.
The P38 is undoubtedly an easier plane to fly than the F4U. However, the Corsair is a more survivable aircraft. I am sure there are just as many new pilots flying the F4U incorrectly as there are flying the P38L.
I completely agree, a Corsair could done the same thing. As I said, I like the Corsair, especially the F4U-1. However, it is not a beginner's airplane, which is why the K/D is not as good as it could be. It takes time to learn how to maximize the Corsair's strengths. Some guys never learn this because all they do is use them as Jabos, depending upon speed to escape after the bomb run.
Where the Corsair comes up short against the P-38 is in a turning fight. If the Hog gets slow, it's in trouble. Indeed, below 250 mph, the P-38 is an excellent stallfighter. Gentle stall, no torque, outstanding acceleration, these all conspire to make the F4U's pilot miserable. If you can break down the Corsair's energy, get him to turn at low speed, the P-38 eats him alive. Especially with the F4U-1's nasty stall characteristics. Down low, its easy to auger should you get into an accelerated stall. However, if the Corsair has the energy advantage, the P-38 pilot will be a very busy man. I experienced this yesterday near A11 (NDISLES). I was escorting a heavy F4U-1D, when a C-Hog came down and made a run on me. I avoided his attacks, and the -1D I was escorting was trying for a shot despite his heavy load. However, this C-Hog pilot wasn't very smart, every time he went up and down, he killed a bit more energy, until finally, we were pretty much Co-E. He should have extended further after each pass, but he was greedy and became careless. The net result was that I was able to close on him, then he went vertical at Co-E (certain death for a Corsair against a P-38), and I killed him at the top of his attempted loop. This is typical of an inexperienced or over-confident Corsair pilot; he wasted his advantage by being impatient. A smart Corsair driver would have conserved his E and would have made himself a real pain in the neck. At the very least he could have disengaged had he felt the need. His second mistake was not going after the other, loaded Corsair. His chances of getting to me were virtually nil, as I was light on gas and had plenty of speed. However, the loaded Hog was relatively slow. At the minimum, he could have forced the D-Hog to dump his load, effecting the battle at P-14. Some guys never think beyond the moment. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I like the F4Us, all of them. Properly flown, they can be very difficult to deal with in any situation. Great fighter.
For that matter, in a 1 on 1, Co-E, Co-alt, meeting on the merge, a P-38 driver can feel confident that he can deal with anything he encounters. Provided he fights his his fight and does not get drawn into stallfighting Spits, Hurris or Zekes. To borrow from the Submariners; "there are two types of airplanes, P-38s and targets." :D
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by lazs2
guess that proves my theory that guys that fly at high alt aren't very good.
lazs
Er, not quite. Saturday, I killed two Lancasters and a G-10 up at 28k during a single sortie.
Oh yeah, I was flying a Niki!!:cool:
Guess it's more uber than most thought, eh? I've had it up to 32k hunting Buffs. My squadies were somewhat incredulous with that, until they saw the results.
You see, at any altitude, 1 on 1, I'll fight it out. 2 on 1, I might if circumstances are right. 3 on 1, with the enemy having every advantage... I'm buggin' out. Indeed, the difference between bravery and stupidity is sometimes little more than the letter count.
My regards,
Widewing
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thats what I said.. the F4U can only run away from the 38 ;)
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wide... Huh? you say I am wrong and then you go on to say that you killed 3 mor4e of the lameo's... Allways glad to give you a chance to tell us all how great you are tho. I can understand that sometimes it isn't all that apparent and getting on the BB and bragging is the only way to get the rtecognition you deserve soo.... glad to be of service.
lazs
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Gryffin:
Sorry for not replying sooner, been busy.
I will try to find some films or make some, but that will take time. I will be very busy for the next couple of weeks.
Basically, I just keep the puppy fast, I mean really fast, like over 275 mph at ALL times. The F4UD holds e (read speed) very well. I seldom get killed when I am over 300 mph. It is very rare when I turn with anything. Sure you can outturn that 109, but can you outturn and outrun that Spit who is lining you up???
Take your snapshots, the F4UD has mean guns. I set convergence of the 2 outside guns at 650 yds, and the convergence of the 4 inside guns at 300 yds. I mean the F4UD guns are mean as a junkyard dawg. Last night I bounced 3 Lancs in less than 3 minutes near our base, tore them to pieces without any damage to my plane. Never went below 350+ in any of the gun runs.
Wish I had make a film of those attacks, quite frankly I was thinking I would only get one, and then spin out of the sky with no wings, so why film it?? (doh!). But I set up the attack different than I usually do. It seemed to work.
Email me so I can send films to ya when I get them :)
jbuettner@gci.com
AKEagle+
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Originally posted by lazs2
wide... Huh? you say I am wrong and then you go on to say that you killed 3 mor4e of the lameo's... Allways glad to give you a chance to tell us all how great you are tho. I can understand that sometimes it isn't all that apparent and getting on the BB and bragging is the only way to get the rtecognition you deserve soo.... glad to be of service.
lazs
Bite me Junior. Your original comment could easily be mistaken as an insult, as your reference was utterly vague.
I'm not bragging, merely stating facts. Killing Lancs is no great feat.
Your comment about those who fly high is, typically, BS. You paint with a broad brush, common to the ignorant and/or mean spirited. Just because you don't like yourself, don't cause others to dislike you too.
Widewing
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I just shot down a P38 in a low and slow turn fight. I was chasing a P38 and another dove on me. We were at about 1000 ft asl. The P38 ahead of me was 1.4k away, the one behind me was 800yrds and closing. They were both co-alt. I pulled up in the hardest loop I could. I then dove to the deck and the P38 was latched onto me. I started using the F4U-1s superior roll rate to try to confuse the P38 as to which direction I was going to break. Soon the P38 was within 400yrds of me. The P38 then shot off my right elevator. I deployed full flaps and my landing gear and turned as hard I as could. The P38 nearly overshot me. I broke hard again, this time the P38 overshot me and we entered into a violent scissors maneuver. Luckily I got 3 snapshots on the P38 and his tail section fell off. I thought that this P38 may have been you widewing. But it turns out it wasn't.
Interesting note: With full flaps,main fuel tank empty, and only 1 elevator, my F4U showed no tendancy to spin, even at very low speeds (90-100knts).
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Originally posted by fdiron
I just shot down a P38 in a low and slow turn fight. I was chasing a P38 and another dove on me. We were at about 1000 ft asl. The P38 ahead of me was 1.4k away, the one behind me was 800yrds and closing. They were both co-alt. I pulled up in the hardest loop I could. I then dove to the deck and the P38 was latched onto me. I started using the F4U-1s superior roll rate to try to confuse the P38 as to which direction I was going to break. Soon the P38 was within 400yrds of me. The P38 then shot off my right elevator. I deployed full flaps and my landing gear and turned as hard I as could. The P38 nearly overshot me. I broke hard again, this time the P38 overshot me and we entered into a violent scissors maneuver. Luckily I got 3 snapshots on the P38 and his tail section fell off. I thought that this P38 may have been you widewing. But it turns out it wasn't.
Interesting note: With full flaps,main fuel tank empty, and only 1 elevator, my F4U showed no tendancy to spin, even at very low speeds (90-100knts).
Sounds like quick thinking on your part reversed a bad situation. It's amazing how few pilots will pull off throttle when faced with their target suddenly slowing. It's as if the throttle was jammed. There were several things that the P-38 jock could have done, but obviously didn't.
1) Pull off power as soon as the closure rate appears too fast.
2) Roll and skid.
A flat scissors usually results in the aircraft able to slow the fastest getting the advantage. You quickly assessed the situation and did the smart thing. The P-38 jock obviously did not respond correctly. If less than 250 mph, he could have dropped his flaps to "maneuver", high yo-yo'd and retained position. You were the better pilot. P-38s bleed energy much faster than the Corsair during high G maneuvering. This P-38 pilot held every advantage, but failed anyway. He simply met a better pilot, who knew how not only to survive, but win.
If it had been Fester, Tac or Lazer, you likely would not have survived the loop. Lightnings are looping monsters, capable of multiple loops fully loaded with ord. The average P-38 pilot will lose to a more skilled pilot in a Corsair most of the time. However, there are several P-38 Experten (Fester, Lazer and Tac to name a few) who would bake your clams once they saddled up.
Tonight, the =Ghosts= flew a sortie to 45. We all took P-38s. When we left the field, we had 9 kills for 1 loss air to air, with two additional losses to ack and a flak panzer. Then again, we had some really good pilots. We were joined by Lazer and several others as we RTB's. On the way home, trailing behind to deal with a Yak, I ran across a 190D who wanted to play. His problem was that after the merge, he elected to fight a flat scissors. He never finished his second turn. Blew off his wing with 90 degree
deflection shot. I filmed it should you or anyone wish to see why you don't try a scissors with a P-38, flying anything other than a Hurricane or Zero. This 190D should have extended after the merge. He didn't, and it cost him. I remember thinking that if he did extend, he would be a pest. When he reversed hard, I knew then that he wasn't very sharp. Not only that, but he carried too much speed to make that corner anywhere near as tight as he needed to. As he came by, I hit him with a short burst that scored at least one hit. His next reverse was his last... He discovered what I had already learned the hard way.
Earlier at 33, I caught four F4U-1D fighters on their takeoff roll. They never saw me dive in an La-7. All four died, the last as his wheels came up. Opportunities like that are few and far between.
Didn't require much skill. But, vulching seldom does. My squadies got a kick out of it. I know that there was one Bish squad seriously pissed tonight.:D
Some days you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.
My regards,
Widewing.
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tell ya what wide while you got your mouth open so much... why don't you bite me instead?
There are about a half a dozen guys on this board who take every opportunity to brag about sorties. There are far better pilots out there that never brag. everyone who has been around knows it. You come off as both pompous and pathetic. Geeze.... if your any good you won't have to keep telling folks.
And... if yu bother to go after the alt monkies you will waste a lot of time convincing them that they still have the advantage only to find that they are pretty easy to kill or, worse yet... they simply run away when they fear they might get on an even footing. Killing lancs?? you gotta be kidding... that is a tough one for you?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
tell ya what wide while you got your mouth open so much... why don't you bite me instead?
There are about a half a dozen guys on this board who take every opportunity to brag about sorties. There are far better pilots out there that never brag. everyone who has been around knows it. You come off as both pompous and pathetic. Geeze.... if your any good you won't have to keep telling folks.
And... if yu bother to go after the alt monkies you will waste a lot of time convincing them that they still have the advantage only to find that they are pretty easy to kill or, worse yet... they simply run away when they fear they might get on an even footing. Killing lancs?? you gotta be kidding... that is a tough one for you?
lazs
Lasz, with therapy and training, you can learn to function with dyslexia. Not only do you appear to struggle with reading comprehension, you seem to have difficulty translating thoughts coherently into print.
No one here is bragging. Discussing the evolution of a fight, what you did (or didn't do), what the enemy did (or didn't do) is not bragging. Have you ever sat down with a group of WWII fighter pilots and listened to them discuss their combat missions and victories? Ever sit down with any era group of combat pilots? If you did, you would discover that they talk about the details, what they did, how they did it, exactly like we see here. They're not bragging. They are, however, sharing their enthusiasm and the joy of winning. Your (note that this IS the correct usage of the word) problem is that you are a joyless crank, resentful of anyone who is having fun. Kindly sod off.
Widewing
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Lasz, with therapy and training, you can learn to function with dyslexia.
Its Lazs not Lasz.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Hooligan
Its Lazs not Lasz.
Hooligan
My first appointment is next Teusday? ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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Don't know what this thread is about... don't care...... but it's just starting to get funny...
When the bragging about flying LuftWaffle planes begins, it will really start to get good.
-SW
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What are you talking about SW? Only a superman could possibly get a kill in AH's fiendishly undermodelled LW aircraft!
Hooligan
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I beg to differ, everyone knows that a strong man is required to nurse the severly handi-capped LW planes around the skies and to manage to get kills in it.... thus I reckon The Incredible Hulk is the only man alive that could possibly fly these neutered LW beasts!
-SW
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Come on, the 109g10 and 190D are superb fighters. The 109g10 probably has the best climb rate in AH, while the 190D is very fast.
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fdiron good climb rate in G10 means just an ability to commit suicide later when you try to dive on your enemy. LOL.
At least I find G10 a totally useless plane. If you want to use it's good speed to your advantage, you can't turn or hit anything anymore.
If you choose to remain slow and try to get shots on evading planes, G-6 fits the job much much better. It even handles better at dives.
My assessment of the G-10 is that either it's porked bigtime in AH or then it was a big design failure in real world. Or maybe it was designed primarily for buff hunting and was not suited for furballs. Which is probably true.
Of course in AH it doesn't even hunt buffs very well since they outmanouver and accelerate it at over 18k altitudes. I had a funny encounter with a lancaster at 20k where he first outturned, outaccelerated and shot my engine oil when I overshot him from below (I was in 262) and when I finally managed to turn, gain speed to bounce him from his belly again and hit him with 6 30mm hits, he still kept on flying and incredibly also shooting which is funny considering I peppered his whole center fuselage, starting from the tail section (took only a vert stab) with 30mm squirt on that pass.
Finally I managed to get a ping on his wingtip while he was flying 340mph in the lancaster (according to film) and he flipped over and exploded.