Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: hblair on April 26, 2002, 08:44:13 AM
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Apparently a student (or former student) went nuts with a gun. Didn't that guy know that Germany has a very stringant gun control policy? Darned criminals just have no respect for gun control laws. When will they ever learn?
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Hblair, you dufus, don't you know that proper etiquette requires you to let the bodies cool before warping an event to suit a political agenda?
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Germans need more gun control laws!
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GUN CONTROL LAWS SAVE LIVES of criminals. If owning a fully automatic M60 light machine is wrong, I dont want to be right!
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I HATE when America exports it's culture like this! :mad: :mad: :mad:
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Originally posted by OZkansas
Germans need more gun control laws!
18 people died in the shooting: 14 teachers, one police-man, two school-kids and the mad one who killed himself when he was surrounded by the police.
Special tragic side-story within all this tragedy:
One of the 2 children of the dead police-man has today birthday.
:(
I agree that Germany need more gun control laws. It has become easy to get weapons in the last years - especially from the eastern neighbors of Germany - so I would appreciate new laws to punish the illegal possession of weapons.
Otherwise we will get here the same chaos as in countries where people could by weapons like candies in shops.
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Originally posted by babek-
Otherwise we will get here the same chaos as in countries where people could by weapons like candies in shops.
In other words, the United States. ;)
Oh... and nice troll SikBoy.
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Originally posted by babek-
I agree that Germany need more gun control laws. It has become easy to get weapons in the last years - especially from the eastern neighbors of Germany - so I would appreciate new laws to punish the illegal possession of weapons.
You mean Germany does not already have laws punishing illegal posession of weapons? That there are laws defining what is and what is not a legal posession but making no difference in the end?
Otherwise we will get here the same chaos as in countries where people could by weapons like candies in shops.
You want to bet that that guy did not buy his gun in the store? Germany cannot stop containerfulls of drugs coming over its borders every day, how would it stop smuggling in the weapons?
Those teachers being methodically slaughtered could have used a legally purchased gun - for protection of themselves and children in their care.
I bet something like this would not have happened in an israeli school. There are always armed people around the children there making sure nothing happens to them.
miko
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You're prolly right gordo. I just heard there was a shooting OTW to work this morning. Didn't realize it was a massacre. I feel bad for the families and friends. :(
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sad :(
more gun laws ain't the answer, here or there
outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns
sick freaks, the world has too many of them :(
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Originally posted by Eagler
outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns
C'mon everybody! Join in and chant the mantra!
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Originally posted by hblair
You're prolly right gordo. I just heard there was a shooting OTW to work this morning. Didn't realize it was a massacre. I feel bad for the families and friends. :(
I am just happy to find out that you indeed have a paying job:)
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on a side note
after reading this:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20020426/ts_nm/crime_germany_shooting_dc_18
It seems that there are students 10 to 19 in the same school?
Is that correct? Is that normal for schools in Germany? Europe?
Just wondering as that age spread doesn't seem healthy ..
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News flash..
German gun lover demonstrates once again...
Guns dont kill people. But gun lovers do.
And
12 year old starts gun smuggling ring to aquire guns for school masacre.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
C'mon everybody! Join in and chant the mantra!
Chant would be premature as we do not know where the nutbag got the gun...
"Germany already has strict laws governing the right to own a gun but experts say the country is awash with illegal weapons smuggled into the country from eastern Europe and the Balkans.
Those wishing to get hold of a hunting rifle must undergo checks which can last a year, while those wanting a gun for sport must be a member of a club and obtain a license from the police. "
Yea, more laws would make a big difference
:rolleyes:
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A gun is a cowards weapon.
They should all be destroyed.
We should all carry swords.
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Amazing how this is immediately politicized to put an anti-gun control slant on it. The way to avoid these types of gun tragedies is to have LESS gun control? Uh....I'm having trouble following that logic.
Miko, statistics show that in America your handgun is more likely to kill you or a member of your family rather than an outlaw. I hardly think arming everyone will cut down on gun deaths, and indeed, may actually increase gun deaths.
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unbelievable 18 Dead :(
How many famalies have this salamander destroyed today and
he got away shoting himself
I dont think more gun control would avoid this today tragedy,
there will be allways smuggle of weapons :(
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But there are soooo many freakin guns in circulation, if they stopped production today it'd take forever to get rid of them. And if the gov't could get rid of them, there would be people making their own guns. Do you know how easy it would be for a guy with average machinist skills to make a deadly gun ? With the state that technology has progressed to, there's just NO way you can keep guns out of the hands of criminals. It's a lost cause.
The only real gun control is education and economic prosperity.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Miko, statistics show that in America your handgun is more likely to kill you or a member of your family rather than an outlaw. I hardly think arming everyone will cut down on gun deaths, and indeed, may actually increase gun deaths.
Same with cars, elictricity, cigarettes, pools and fast food - have to exercise caution.
I do not mind taking responcibility for my life and my family's - even if I have to be more carefull. I object to being at mercy of any freak with an illegal gun who wants to shoot me.
Number of accidental gun deaths is not a big concern of mine. Number of murders where victim is disarmed by law for the enjoyment of the criminal is what concerns me more.
miko
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WTF.....lets just make sure all kids and teachers go to school packin heat. :rolleyes:
18 dead......probably has nothing to do with gun control, and everything to do with some kid feeling alienated and picked upon.
Sad chit.
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sorry for the familys and the dead, dont see where u.s. gun laws really have any pertenence.
just sad somone sick killed others who wanted to live. seems like mental health is the real issue. you want to kill people in a techheavy society there is always a way.
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Hey, if he didn't have a gun, he'da used a car to mow em all down with, at an opportune time. This ain't about guns, guys, its about society.
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I don't think anyone would argue the fact that German gun control laws are far more severe than what we have in the US.
So it should be pretty obvious that stricter gun laws cannot prevent this type of stuff from happening.
Sandman, you're just supporting a different mantra. Not any better, just different.
Animal, if you got your way the butchery would simply be done with swords. There's enough examples of slaughter with swords around to suggest that you can kill a significant number with a sword just as you can with a gun. The main difference would be that size and strength would now enter into it; the big strong guys would probably do way better. The term "bully" would probably regain its former more menacing meaning. There's a reason for that old saw about ""God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."
As Miko pointed out, the INANIMATE OBJECT is not to blame here. It's the perverted use of an inanimate object for evil BY MAN that is the problem.
That part doesn't seem to have changed since Cain whacked Abel with a rock. I don't expect it will change, either.. no matter how many times we all hold hands and sing "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.....".
BTW, how's things going in the slaughter between the Israelis and Palestinians today? Has the Christian V Moslem butchery in Sudan slowed down any? Anyone bludgeoned to death in NYC this morning? Anyone killed by a knife in Delhi?
Common factor? MAN. Not inanimate objects, MAN.
OK, this ground has been plowed enough.
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Actually Rip.. this one is about guns.
When German citizens cite U.S. liberal gun laws as the reason behind Columbine... incidents like this highlight the flaw in the argument.
The solution to people committing illegal acts is not to create more laws.
AKDejaVu
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You're right, Rip. 18 dead cause of some nut is bipartisan.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Oh... and nice troll SikBoy.
Yeah, my lure was way too small to catch fish in a gun control pond. I'm just no good at this. I'll have to watch elfenwolf somemore.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Toad
Sandman, you're just supporting a different mantra. Not any better, just different.
I'm not supporting anything. I'm trolling. :D
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Originally posted by Eagler
on a side note
after reading this:
[url] It seems that there are students 10 to 19 in the same school?
Is that correct? Is that normal for schools in Germany?
Its a long time ago, when I went to school, but if I am right there is the following system in Germany:
Grundschule (Primary School) 1st to 4th class; 5-9 year old pupils Gymnasium (Secondary School) 5th to 13th class; 9 to 18 year old pupils.
So - if you have entered school with 5 years you will finish it with 17 years and could start to study.
Regulary you will finish in Germany with 18 the school, but its also possible that some are 1 or 2 years older because they had to repeat a class.
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Originally posted by babek-
Otherwise we will get here the same chaos as in countries where people could by weapons like candies in shops.
Insanity knows no nationalities, no borders, and for that matter knows no gunlaws my friend, none whatsoever.
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When are gun control advocates going to realize the obvious?
A criminal is such for many reasons. Too many to list here. Is a criminal going to avoid getting or using a gun because...it's illegal?
Gun control may have an impact on crimes of passion I may have to agree. The cooling off period most likely does prevent crimes of passion with a gun.
However, I once worked a case where a man had just murdered his wife. He had discovered her extra marital affair. In the bathroom where she lay face down, I noticed a huge chunk of the porcelain bath sink was missing. When I rolled her over, I found the chunk. She was wearing it. He had driven her head face first thru the sink.
She wasn't shot tho.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Yeah, my lure was way too small to catch fish in a gun control pond. I'm just no good at this. I'll have to watch elfenwolf somemore.
-Sikboy
LOL Sikboy, here's a few lures that have worked well for me in the past- the Dead Homeless Dude Spinnerbait, works great on the righteously indignant fish- the PETA Artifical Minnow, somehow fish strike at this bait even though they know it's fake-
the Hillary Rodham Clinton For President Stinkbait, works great on Southern fish-
But remember, trolling is as much about presentation as it is about the bait. For instance you don't want to throw a Hilary Rodham Clinton For President Stinkbait in the middle of a school of fish because it'll startle them away. Instead fish the Clinton Stinkbait slightly upstream from the fish and they'll be enticed by the smell to check it out.
Conversely, when using the PETA Artificial Lure try to bounce it off the fish's nose because of the strike reflex instinctive in so many fish whenever PETA is mentioned.
Most important of all is trolling the right thread. Try to find a thread where the subject of the thread does something so off the wall and stupid as to be defenseless in their actions- such as having a homeless guy stuck in their windshield for three days- and then defend them. This drives the fish into a feeding frenzy.
Happy fishing.:)
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ROFL!
Oh man, that's my first entry into my "Post Hall Of Fame"
Thanks for the Tips. I think there's one more thing I need to realise: Get out the hip-waders, and don't be afraid to fully commit. You can't catch the big one if you give up too early.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by babek-
Its a long time ago, when I went to school, but if I am right there is the following system in Germany:
Grundschule (Primary School) 1st to 4th class; 5-9 year old pupils Gymnasium (Secondary School) 5th to 13th class; 9 to 18 year old pupils.
So - if you have entered school with 5 years you will finish it with 17 years and could start to study.
Regulary you will finish in Germany with 18 the school, but its also possible that some are 1 or 2 years older because they had to repeat a class.
anyone else think this odd?
A 4th/fifth grader in the same school as a senior in high school/freshman in college?
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Yeah, but remember, no matter how good the fisherman there's some fish that can't be caught- the Toad fish, for instance. He's too smart to have been an Air Force pilot- he must have been a Navy pilot.
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Originally posted by Eagler
anyone else think this odd?
A 4th/fifth grader in the same school as a senior in high school/freshman in college?
Was very common in small towns all across America back in the conservative old days :D
Probably still a few 1 room school houses around.
and Elfy.......don't ya think that one might be a little too deep in the weeds?
:cool:
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To clarify what I think Midnights targets point is..is this: When you troll professionally, no one ever takes your point of view seriously anymore... :)
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OTOH, I think EW may be the most talented writer on the BBS, and I thoroughly enjoy his stuff.
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The Germans needed gun control laws in 1939.
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Why do these people do it? Well, here's a related story:
20 year found guilty in plot to murder students (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20020426_287.html)
I will be a god," Farris quoted Deguzman as saying. "(My) death will be
more significant to all mankind than any religion or god created in the last
3,000 years."
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The problem is that gun laws only control the people who follow the law.
People will want to be able to protect themselves against the criminals toting the guns.
Otherwise you have one person with the power to kill many people who cannot defend themselves = massacre
I think one answer is to make a gun that is useless unless in it's owners hand.
Kanthy
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Amazing how this is immediately politicized to put an anti-gun control slant on it. The way to avoid these types of gun tragedies is to have LESS gun control? Uh....I'm having trouble following that logic.
Miko, statistics show that in America your handgun is more likely to kill you or a member of your family rather than an outlaw. I hardly think arming everyone will cut down on gun deaths, and indeed, may actually increase gun deaths.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
The Germans needed gun control laws in 1939.
Gun control, the Law on Firearms and Ammunition, was introduced to Germany in 1928 under the Weimar regime (there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919) in large part to disarm the nascent private armies, e.g. the Nazi SA (aka "the brownshirts"). The Weimar government was attempting to bring some stability to German society and politics (a classic "law and order" position). Violent extremist movements (of both the Left and Right) were actively attacking the young, and very fragile, democratic state. A government that cannot maintain some degree of public order cannot sustain its legitimacy. Nor was the German citizenry well grounded in Constitutional, republican government (as was evidenced in their choices at the ballot box). Gun control was not initiated at the behest or on behalf of the Nazis - it was in fact designed to keep them, or others of the same ilk, from executing a revolution against the lawful government. In the strictest sense, the law succeeded - the Nazis did not stage an armed coup.
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Eflenwolfs stuff is awsome! lol he should write for the onion!
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They do it because these people need to die in order for them to gain something.
Situations and somethings will vary from person to person But,
in all cases of murder, this is the reason why.
Kanthy
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Why do these people do it? Well, here's a related story:
20 year found guilty in plot to murder students (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20020426_287.html)
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outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns
Doh! By definition! And don't forget kids: this applies to any crime - outlaw murder, and only outlaws will murder people. Outlaw anthrax and only outlaws will have anthrax. etc. etc.
Why not try this for stupid quotes: "Convictions cause criminals"
When are gun control advocates going to realize the obvious?
A criminal is such for many reasons. Too many to list here. Is a criminal going to avoid getting or using a gun because...it's illegal?
Ahhh the impeccable logic - So we should forget about all weapon control altogether?:
When are sink/ knife/ gun/ hand grenade/ tank/ helicopter/ missile/ smallpox/ anthrax/ nerve gas/ nuke* control advocates going to realize the obvious?
A criminal is such for many reasons. Too many to list here. Is a criminal going to avoid getting or using a sink/ knife/ gun/ hand grenade/ tank/ helicopter/ missile/ smallpox/ anthrax/ nerve gas/ nuke* because...it's illegal?
*delete those items that you feel are too dangerous to be owned by individuals and/or governments like Iraq, Iran, North Korea, or that most evil of countries, (insert current local scapegoat here). Any similarity to feelings of hypocrisy that you may encounter are strictly coincidental.
Toad at least has a better point - people do all the actual killing and inanimate objects aren't to blame.
Some inanimate objects are however specifically designed to make it easier for people to kill said people - if guns are so innocent, why do all armies use them for the express purpose of killing people? Taking this a bit further: killing someone would appear to not be a "perverted" use of a gun - in fact in the case of guns & ammo designed for the military, any use of a gun apart from killing people should really be considered the "perverted" use.
If people were mature, rational, sentient and sensible, then I'd be much less opposed to them be armed. However people are far too often given to being outstandingly stupid and evil to each other, as Toad points out. Indeed the german kid mentioned above goes even further to prove the point. Another obvious point about guns springs up as well - the death toll of 18 people - could he really have achieved that armed only with a bathroom sink? I'm betting no. ;)
So I feel that giving people the right to own guns is as dangerous and irresponsible as giving toddlers a bottle of bleach to play with (I can almost hear the National Bleach Association advocates now: "hey - only criminal toddlers will use the bleach to kill someone", "bleach doesn't kill toddlers, toddlers kill toddlers").
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Originally posted by -dead-
Ahhh the impeccable logic - So we should forget about all weapon control altogether?:
When are sink/ knife/ gun/ hand grenade/ tank/ helicopter/ missile/ smallpox/ anthrax/ nerve gas/ nuke* control advocates going to realize the obvious?
A criminal is such for many reasons. Too many to list here. Is a criminal going to avoid getting or using a sink/ knife/ gun/ hand grenade/ tank/ helicopter/ missile/ smallpox/ anthrax/ nerve gas/ nuke* because...it's illegal?
*delete those items that you feel are too dangerous to be owned by individuals and/or governments like Iraq, Iran, North Korea, or that most evil of countries, (insert current local scapegoat here). Any similarity to feelings of hypocrisy that you may encounter are strictly coincidental.
Toad at least has a better point - people do all the actual killing and inanimate objects aren't to blame.
Some inanimate objects are however specifically designed to make it easier for people to kill said people - if guns are so innocent, why do all armies use them for the express purpose of killing people? Taking this a bit further: killing someone would appear to not be a "perverted" use of a gun - in fact in the case of guns & ammo designed for the military, any use of a gun apart from killing people should really be considered the "perverted" use.
If people were mature, rational, sentient and sensible, then I'd be much less opposed to them be armed. However people are far too often given to being outstandingly stupid and evil to each other, as Toad points out. Indeed the german kid mentioned above goes even further to prove the point. Another obvious point about guns springs up as well - the death toll of 18 people - could he really have achieved that armed only with a bathroom sink? I'm betting no. ;)
So I feel that giving people the right to own guns is as dangerous and irresponsible as giving toddlers a bottle of bleach to play with (I can almost hear the National Bleach Association advocates now: "hey - only criminal toddlers will use the bleach to kill someone", "bleach doesn't kill toddlers, toddlers kill toddlers").
So the death of is more of a tragedy than the death of 1?
I don't follow the logic.
A toddler doesn't have the ability to reason. We as adults are supposed to.
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The mere presence of guns in a society does not lead to violence. Conversely, the absence of guns does not lead to security. Switzerland requires its citizens to perform military service for a full year and then go on reserve status thereafter. The citizens that are on reserve keep their weapons in their homes. And yet Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
The presence of a large number of guns in civilian hands doesn't necessarily lead to a low crime rate. Nor does it foster an increase in crime. Rather it is a lack of self-discipline and respect for the law and the rights of others within a society that leads to such tragic incidents as Columbine.
Those who would have more gun laws believe that handing the responsibility for their security over to the government is the best way to attain it. But that is a false premise. The government cannot protect you, everywhere, all the time. Ultimately, the citizen bears the responsibility for maintaining his own security. This fact is something that the Founding Fathers understood without reservations. They were men who were intimate with firearms and their legitimate uses. They attempted to create the best, most responsive, government that the world had ever seen.
In this they succeeded. They were very proud of their creation.
Yet, they did not trust it. Not entirely. The great powers of a central government are too easily used for tyranny.
So, they wrote the embarassing Second Amendment. If any of you doubt that they intended it to be used as a curb on the power of the Federal Government, then go back and look at some of their earlier writings on the subject. Remember also, that they had also recently finished a war with a central government that they considered to be tyrannical.
Never would they have questioned a citizen's right to use a weapon to defend their families or persons, whether at home or on the streets.
I strongly suspect, there was not a single armed citizen within a mile of the school in Germany, except for the killer. Not a single soul capable of defending their lives or the lives of the students and teachers slain by that maniac.
Our Founding Fathers would be aghast at such a situation.
Regards, Shuckins
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Well the way I figure it - the death of one person is a tragedy
the death of two people is two tragedies.... etc. etc.
I take it from your statement you feel that the world should be equally saddened by the death of one person as all the casualties of World War One? It's a noble aspiration, but it doesn't strike me as being very realistic.
[cynicism]Indeed to blend in with the rest of society, I should really say that the death of one person is a tragedy, while the death of over ten people is good television, and the death of over a thousand is a charity concert opportunity. Sad but true.[/cynicism]
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I had actually qualifed for Naval Flight Training, had all the paperwork and physicals done and was due to get orders the following week.
However, over the intervening weekend, somebody in Naval Intelligence found out that my parents had indeed been legally married and I was thus disqualified.
Oh well, I was happy in the AF.
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OK, I may be a liberal, but I'm not really in favor of gun control.
However, I have yet to see one relevent argument that shows how this tragedy may have been avoided if Germany had looser gun control legislation. Do you all really think a local citizen could have rushed in with his legally aquired handgun and saved the day?
C'mon, be serious! :rolleyes:
I'm sure a citizen within 1 mile or 2 of Columbine had a gun.......where was the chickensh*t?
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Yes, yes I do.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/68044_shooting26.shtml
Kanthy
Originally posted by midnight Target
Do you all really think a local citizen could have rushed in with his legally aquired handgun and saved the day?
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Hmm As far as I can tell that news article doesn't prove the point at all.
A woman shot and killed an armed man who broke into her West Seattle home and began beating her roommate early yesterday morning.
No mention of her running off down to a school and killing someone who was shooting kids.... or is that story printed in between the lines of text?
Indeed the third paragraph seems to be arguing against your point:Neighbors said they had no idea a shooting had occurred, some saying they thought the shots were merely backfire from one of the many cars traveling along the busy street.
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I can't believe you guys are arguing about gun control. The real issue here is why the hell are teenage amazinhunks flipping out and murdering their teachers and peers. It appears to be contagious, not just isolated to US culture any longer. I wish people like this would just shoot themselves and save the rest of us the trouble. Child molesters too for that matter.
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Western society sucks.
We should get back to something more wholesome like feudalism.
Mental health has been in decline in Western democracies for years. I don't think we are going to see an end to this stuff.
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Feudalism?
Can I be the king? :D
I always wanted to be able to exercise that "droit du seigneur feature, myth not withstanding!
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Originally posted by funkedup
I can't believe you guys are arguing about gun control. The real issue here is why the hell are teenage amazinhunks flipping out and murdering their teachers and peers. It appears to be contagious, not just isolated to US culture any longer. I wish people like this would just shoot themselves and save the rest of us the trouble. Child molesters too for that matter.
Exactly. Thats why I asked my question funked! This has nothing to do with gun control, and proves nothing for either side.
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Originally posted by Kanth
I think one answer is to make a gun that is useless unless in it's owners hand.
Good idea. The criminals will still use regular guns, but at least they would not be easily able eaily steal the guns from lawfull owners.
Unfortunately all the electronic schemes are clumsy, expencive and ineffective. I am willing to have a gun or better yet a piece that would plug into a gun surgically implanted into my hand though.
midnight Target: Do you all really think a local citizen could have rushed in with his legally aquired handgun and saved the day?
Just try polling a gun on a bunch of children in Israel and see how long you will live...
-dead- - the guns/knives are so easy to make/smuggle/obtain illegally, that there is a great chance that a common criminal facing you may be armed with a gun or a knife (but not tank, helicopter, missile, smallpox, anthrax, nerve, gas or nuke). It is only fitting that a law-abiding citizen was able to defend him/herself with a reasonable weapon.
miko
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mT, do you think, perhaps, that the stringent gun control laws in place might have backfired in that everyone in the school and surrounding town felt secure that this situation simply could not arise? The U.S. has taken steps to actually protect our kids by violating individual rights (if minors can be said to have rights protecting them from search and seizure) by putting metal detectors and even officers in schools. I don't know, but I suspect, that Germany does not have this in place.
I don't think anyone can say gun laws are to blame here. In fact, if anything, it's the Government and the Laws of Germany that are to blame. The school system in Germany reflects the future of America, if we are to allow a pure Government education system with no options of home schooling. Currently, you can educate your kids at home here. You can bet that there are individuals that want to implement laws prohibiting home education. After all, only the rich can afford to due this, and thus allow rich children an advantage over their poorer counterparts. How can we, as a people, allow this injustice?:rooleyes:
If, you can follow my argument, you will find that eventually Government will control not only the education of our children, but their safety as well. It's an awesome responsibility that every extant system has failed to competently fulfill. Inevitably, the teachers become specialists in a single subject, poorly suited to judging an individuals needs, and ill-prepared to deal with non-conformists amongst their pupils. Thus, we have situations arising where an individuals needs are overlooked for the benefit of the group. Possibly, what this kid needed was some one-on-one counseling, a mentor, a tutor, and perhaps a great deal of TLC. Public schooling has never been able to provide this efficiently to every possible personality type. Certainly, it is too late to prevent this incident, but just as certainly gun laws were not the cause of the grudge developing.
No, the gun was not to blame. Humans tend to be creative in fulfilling their goals. This kid would have come up with some other way of exacting his revenge. The law failed him and his schoolmates, as it is not by its nature capable of protection. Laws cannot protect people. Laws can only be used to define the limits expected of everyone as a mass. The concept of writing more laws to prevent situations from arising is simply fluff.
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Traveled all over Israel a couple of years ago. While they have a lot of political violence to deal with they hardly ever have a Columbine type incident.
Several years ago, about the time they had that horrendous massacre at a McDonald's in California, two terrorists walked into a restaurant in Israel with the intention of killing as many patrons as possible. They had a map that showed the locations of several more Jewish restaurants. They obviously intended to hit as many of them as possible. Needless to say, they failed. The patrons of the restaurant shot one dead and captured the other. Only two patrons were killed by the terrorists, even though they had the element of surprise on their side.
I was in a park in Tel Aviv one day when several classes of school children were present on a school outing. Several of the teachers were armed. Can you imagine the outcry if a law-maker here in the U.S. proposed legislation to allow teachers in our schools to be armed? The Israelis are very practical in their approach to handling that type of violence. They TRUST their law-abiding citizens to handle weapons in a sane and sensible fashion.
In the U.S., on the other hand, the opposite is the truth. After years of news reports and propaganda, the average American citizen no longer believes that his fellow citizens can be trusted to handle a deadly weapon in public. Whenever we have a mass shooting the only person in the building who is armed is the killer. They will always find a way to get a weapon. We can't keep an addict from finding a source of drugs. How are we going to keep criminals and lunatics from obtaining deadly weapons? Anything can be bought, no matter how hard law enforcement agencies try to prevent it.
To those who would argue that an armed citizen is likely to make a mistake in such a crisis situation and injure the innocent I would say consider the following fact:
According to statistics, a policeman responding to a domestic violence dispute in which he is forced to draw and use his weapon is FIVE times more likely to make a mistake and shoot the wrong person as a civilian who has to draw his weapon and defend himself in the same situation.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Toad
somebody in Naval Intelligence found out that my parents had indeed been legally married and I was thus disqualified.
Oh well, I was happy in the AF.
Toad, they were supposed to be legally married to EACH OTHER. Oh well, is spite of your disqualification from a REAL flight training program when we become a feudal state I will vote for you for king.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
The Israelis are very practical in their approach to handling that type of violence. They TRUST their law-abiding citizens to handle weapons in a sane and sensible fashion.
In the U.S., on the other hand, the opposite is the truth.
Regards, Shuckins
Not so everywhere in the US. Texas allows it law abiding citizens the right to carry a concealed weapon provided you attend the required training classes and pass the qualification test. I've never owned a handgun but the license is on my list of things to get.
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Well, Elf... according to what the Navy told me that would have been immaterial in any event.
Although my parents were in fact married to each other, it seems that ANY type of marriage document with either one of the applicant's parents names on it is grounds for disqualification.
I guess they know who/what they want.
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funked
Teenagers have always been amazinhunks and flipping out - it's their job. It's also their hormones. They're also keen followers of fashion, and into being famous forever. Cultivate them in a society where graphic violence is presented like porn on TV shows and the news with none of the social stigma of porn. Show an incident of a school shooting repeatedly for a week or two on TV. Give the kids access to a gun. Hey presto! Instead of just throwing a temper tantrum, being moody, and painting their bedroom black, they're stalking through the corridors killing their teachers & classmates. Who knows? "I wanna be on CNN" may overtake "I wanna be on MTV". It's certainly a lot less work than being a rockstar.
miko2D
Why are guns so easy to obtain illegally?
Are guns much easier to make or smuggle than nerve gas?
Why is it more difficult to obtain (legally or illegally) hand grenades, tanks, helicopters, missiles, smallpox, anthrax, nerve gas or nukes?
Where in the second amendment does it state that Americans have the right to keep and bear reasonable weapons?
Isn't it unconstitutional to ban the sale and ownership of hand grenades, tanks, helicopters, missiles, smallpox, anthrax, nerve gas or nukes?
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toad i read a read but cant figure out what you mean. you were disqualified for not being a bastard?
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Towd, it's an old, old interservice rivalry joke. You must have heard it.. or at least a version.
Elf has been trying to bust my chops is all. Trying. :)
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Originally posted by -dead-
Where in the second amendment does it state that Americans have the right to keep and bear reasonable weapons?
Right there where it says "arms".
The Meaning of the Words in the Second Amendment (http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html)
"Arms
In Colonial times "arms" meant weapons that could be carried. This included knives, swords, rifles and pistols. Dictionaries of the time had a separate definition for "ordinance" (as it was spelled then) meaning cannon. Any hand held, non-ordnance type weapons, are theoretically constitutionally protected. Obviously nuclear weapons, tanks, rockets, fighter planes, and submarines are not."
There are other sources you can easily find on the net that express the same idea/intent and have more documentation to go along with it. This is just one I picked randomly on a 2nd Amendment search.
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Show me where I quoted anything about school kids.
She used a legally aquired hand gun to rush in and save someone. Because she lives there this doesn't count? :rolleyes:
Kanthy
Originally posted by -dead-
Hmm As far as I can tell that news article doesn't prove the point at all.
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Not only that but children wouldn't be able to take their parents gun and accidentally shoot themselvs or their friends with it.
Criminals could still use regular guns but those could be made illegal. And the process to buy an identification type gun could include recording who bought it and all of it's information and could be used to ensure that those people are showing up for required hours of gun safety type training etc...
Responsibility would be easier to enforce and illegal weapons would be easy to identify at like Gun shows for example.
(which brings up a whole other subject for antique gun collectors)
Kanthy
Originally posted by miko2d
Good idea. The criminals will still use regular guns, but at least they would not be easily able eaily steal the guns from lawfull owners.
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Take another Vicadin Voss, I think the Black helicopters are causing your pain.;) :rolleyes:
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This loser had a permit for both guns......19 and still in school....hell with 17 I was in the Marines learning gun control;)
Its all about how you are brought up.
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Yeah, mT, you're still the same dickhead.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by babek-
18 people died in the shooting: 14 teachers, one police-man, two school-kids and the mad one who killed himself when he was surrounded by the police.
Special tragic side-story within all this tragedy:
One of the 2 children of the dead police-man has today birthday.
:(
I agree that Germany need more gun control laws. It has become easy to get weapons in the last years - especially from the eastern neighbors of Germany - so I would appreciate new laws to punish the illegal possession of weapons.
Otherwise we will get here the same chaos as in countries where people could by weapons like candies in shops.
Sad events can happen when people snap. Maybe instead of punishing the sane and rational people of Germany with tyranical new gun laws, the government could put all expelled students in a special camp until it is certain that they are not going to flip-out and kill people. I'm also sure that the first time a young man went on a killing rampage predates the USA and fire arms. So it's a good bet that this type if thing originated in traditional old world culture despite it being regretably common in America.
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Originally posted by OZkansas
Germans need more gun control laws!
ahh realy ... will it remove reason of their act ....
ohhh wait .. why should we speak about causal its not modern
bla bla bla
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Originally posted by -dead-
funked
Teenagers have always been amazinhunks and flipping out - it's their job. It's also their hormones. They're also keen followers of fashion, and into being famous forever
when i was teenager i werent amazinhunk like the other wanted to be nor follower of fashion
its on your will, what you will choise, no matter how old are you
people doing roadkill all the time not only teenagers...
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Originally posted by Voss
Yeah, mT, you're still the same dickhead.:rolleyes:
And you have completely lost your sense of humor. :rolleyes:
But please try to roll the foreskin back from your eyes for a moment. You made some good points in your post, and some that sounded like Ruby Ridgisms.
If the German school system is the future of the American system I say about freakin time! A school's mandate is too provide an education and Germany by any measure has done a much better job of this than we have. It is also in a Country's best interest to provide for the education of its people. Our founding fathers understood this very well, and even added public school partitioning to the Northwest Territories.
Home Schooling is not a "for the rich", Private schools abound for those who can afford it.
I agree with you about gun control laws not being the answer. I just felt you were sounding a little "libertarian".
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Had you responded like this originally, rather than going directly to the 'fear of everything government' route I would not have responded the way I did.
I do think the German school system accomplishes the goal of education very well. It's the freedoms denied their citizens that I have an issue with. We need more choices in our education system and I think this is about to become a major issue, if it isn't already.
No, I'm not a Libertarian.
I don't think the Dem's, the Rep's, nor the Lib's agree with me on gun control, abortion, religion, or gay issues. I am too conservative to get agreement from any of them. Well, some Rep's might agree, but they could never voice similar opinions and get elected.:D
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Buncha slack jawed fairies just needed guidance from their parents, instead most let the Golly-geened TV raise their kids.
It's no wonder our society is crumbling, dumb bellybutton Americans have houses full of unsecured guns and let the diddlying TV teach their kids that its OK to use them.
The fault lies with the parents of these amazinhunks, anytime this toejam happens they should charge the adult who owns the gun used with the crime perpetrated.
I believe if the founding fathers could have seen the technological leaps made in armament the 2nd ammendment would have been drafted differently.
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Ummm.... its a tragedy..
Gun control laws---useless. Guns can and will be had by the most innocent, and surely, by the criminal perpetrators.
People want/don't want guns. It is not the machine (gun) that's the problem.
It is the people that use the guns for nefarious purposes. Or use swords, or bats, or just chocke the living stuffing out of their fellow man.
Unfortunately, as long as guns EXIST, there will be a way for this same type of tragedy to be carried out.
Another terrible incident. But let us not belabor this.
It is a tragedy.
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Originally posted by -dead-
miko2D
Why are guns so easy to obtain illegally?
Are guns much easier to make or smuggle than nerve gas?
Why is it more difficult to obtain (legally or illegally) hand grenades, tanks, helicopters, missiles, smallpox, anthrax, nerve gas or nukes?
Where in the second amendment does it state that Americans have the right to keep and bear reasonable weapons?
Isn't it unconstitutional to ban the sale and ownership of hand grenades, tanks, helicopters, missiles, smallpox, anthrax, nerve gas or nukes?
I will address those questions one by one.
Why are guns so easy to obtain illegally?
Guns can be smuggled through the border whole or in pieces much easier then bulky drugs. Unlike drugs, metal/plastic guns cannot be sniffed by dogs or chemical analyzers. Guns are very low-tech devices that are easy to make.
With a few thousand dollars anyone can buy shop equipment sufficient to produce working guns in a couple of weeks.
Why is it more difficult to obtain (legally or illegally) hand grenades, tanks, helicopters, missiles, smallpox, anthrax, nerve gas or nukes?
There is much lower demand on those items among criminals, that is why nobody cared to organise a supply. Hundreds of criminals need small concealable guns to shoot individual people or use for robberies, intimidation, etc. - they have no use for hand greanades, let alone tanks.
Blowing a rival drug dealer with hand grenade will most likely hurt the one throwing it too. Installing a bomb in his car is much simpler. That is why it is much easier to get a bomb then a hand grenade. Criminals have no targets to use tanks/helicopters on and any tank/helicopter can be blown up by a maveric missle from a National Guard F16 as soon as it it detected.
Chemical/biological weapons are much harder to use safely then even explosives.
Demand for chemicals/biologicals in the world is counted by single units, that is why the consumers of it (political terrorists, religious groups, etc) have to produce those themselfves at enormous expence.
Where in the second amendment does it state that Americans have the right to keep and bear reasonable weapons?
Isn't it unconstitutional to ban the sale and ownership of hand grenades, tanks, helicopters, missiles, smallpox, anthrax, nerve gas or nukes?
Theoretically "not to be infringed" means that anything considered "arms" should not be regulated by the federal governent. Of course they did not have weapons of mass destruction then but if some simpleton today decides to dispute teh limitations on unreasonable weapons, all we would do is to adopt another amendment clarifying the issue. After all, the Constitution is not a holy writ, it's just a living document made by a bunch of people.
So we should really consider the goals of the founding fathers clearly described in the Federalist Papers - as long as they still reflect our interests.
The need for citizens to have arms and for states to have militias was based on a danger of central government turning tyranical and using the army to subjugate people. So we need as much weapons and of such kind that a majority of the people could resist subjugation from the government or a minority.
Even if the whole US army (<1 mil fighting troops?) supports the tyrant, half of the US population armed with handguns and rifles will be able to successfully oppose establishment of a dictatorial regime - provided they care to oppose it.
On the other hand, owning weapons of mass destruction - nukes, gas, bio - removes that democracy in weapons - by allowing a minority to subjugate a majority. That is clearly a danger to our freedom as great as disarming the population.
Ironically, neither constitution nor Federal Papers explicitly say anything about private citizens using arms for private protection against criminals. Most likely because they could not conceive of possibility that a person may be denied a right to defend him/herself against violence. They only expected that an aspiring tyrant already in government preparing a coup (to establish an autoritarian regime) would ever have a reason to disarm the population in order to subjugate it.
miko