Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ZXMAW on April 29, 2002, 09:24:57 PM
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Tressa Koehrer, Field Representative
Assemblyman Tony Strickland, 37th AD
221 East Daily Drive, Suite 7
Camarillo, CA 93010
805-987-5195 Office
805-484-0853 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael A. Plisky [mailto:mplisky@vcmail.net]
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 8:44 AM
To: Andy Stay
Subject: Hanoi Jane
Subject: FW: Hanoi Jane
Keep this moving!
Subj: KEEP THIS MOVING; ACROSS AMERICA HONORING A TRAITOR This is for all
the kids born in the 70's that do not remember this, and didn't have to bear
the burden, that our fathers, mothers, and older brothers and sisters had to
bear. Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century."
Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still countless others have never
known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but specific
men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam.
The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry
Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1968, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival
School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a stinking
cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was ordered
to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane
treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged
away.
During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp Commandant's
feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered
from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the
Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton. From 1963-65, Col.
Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4E's). He spent 6 years in the
"Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife
lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned,
fed, clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit.
They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that
they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN
on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a
cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little
encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are
you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?"
Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper.
She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once
the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned
to the officer in charge and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men
died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four but
he survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions that day.
I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured
by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for
over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage
in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese
captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a
leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near
the Cambodian border.
At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170
lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals."
When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political
officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I
would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs received different
from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane
Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a
rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a large amount of steel
placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane till my arms dipped.
I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I
was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She
did not answer me.
This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years
of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never
include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many patriots
There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's
participation in blatant treason, is one of them.
Please take the time to forward to as many people as you possibly can. It
will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that we will
never forget.
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seen this 8 times in the O-club before. Urban Legend. Fonda was an ugly beach anyway. =P
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The most serious accusations in the piece quoted above -- that Fonda turned over slips of paper furtively given her by American POWS to the North Vietnamese and that several POWs were beaten to death as a result -- are proveably untrue. Those named in the inflammatory e-mail categorically deny the events they supposedly were part of.
"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda."
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I believe she did say this however:
When American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerist and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."
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No question she said and did some idiotic things. Lets just make sure we accuse her of the correct idiotic things. :)
Freedom of speech can be a real biatch to support sometimes. Glad we have people like the ACLU around to assist us with the tough nuts that still need defending.
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Seen this all before.
Do you really think the Hollywood people, who are in love with themselves first, then each other, will beleive it? Of course not. Be damned the facts, gents. Its Hollywood and her cronies.
Nah, the only hope we have is when she attempts to break into heaven, God unravels his massive scrolls, reads her deeds, and yanks the trap door to hell....
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Well said LePaul
It's no secret what Hanoi Jane did during Vietnam, but it's something that Hollywood's conveniently forgot.
Lets just hope something like this never happens again.
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Originally posted by Preon1
Well said LePaul
It's no secret what Hanoi Jane did during Vietnam, but it's something that Hollywood's conveniently forgot.
Lets just hope something like this never happens again.
Something like what, that Jane Fonda exercised her right to free speech?
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That Jane Fonda could so inflammatorily denounce our military; our mothers, fathers, daughters and sons and still make hit movies and popular exercise videos makes me ill.
Sure there’s free speech in the U.S.. Many of the one’s she so loudly slandered gave their lives to ensure it.
Where’s justice?
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Justice is found in Jane's ability to say what she said. Sure it's difficult to hear and most will disagree with her, but just what do you think freedom of speech means? Freedom to say only the things that we agree with?
Freedom is freedom, and aren't we glad we have it today?
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I'm certainly glad for my freedoms. Just afraid our country won't enjoy them much longer. Not when we are so apathetic regarding what's right and wrong.
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She can say what she wants to say; no problem with that.
But I personally think the trip to Hanoi went a little beyond free speech.
While the incident at the start of this thread has pretty well been universally debunked by POWs themselves as "urban legend", I can say this:
I went to UPT with one of the longest held POWs in the Hilton. He told his classmates that the most severe beatings he ever received were when Jane was in town.
Make of that what you will. I'll never like her and if I live long enough I plan a special trip to p*ss on her grave before I move on myself.
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Free speech isn't what I'm trying to get at. It's human decency. Denouncing our nation's military is her right, but it doesn't mean that I have to approve of her actions.
"It is the Soldier, not the poet, who gives us the freedom of speech.
It is the Soldier, not the reporter, who gives us the freedom of the press.
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the Soldier who salutes the Flag, who serves beneath the Flag, whose coffin is draped by the Flag, who allows the protestor to burn the Flag."
-Father Dennis Edward O'Brien (USMC)
In 27 days, I will earn a commission as an officer in the US Air Force. I will take an oath to defend the ideals of this nation. I don't criticize Jane Fonda for her use of freedom of speech. I criticize her because I don't believe that she's a person of decent moral grounding.
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Lemme know when your leavin Toad, Ill drive and buy dinner after:mad:
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Good luck, Preon1. Have a great time, however long you stay in. Did my hitch years and years ago but I still remember it as a great experience. You get out of the AF what you put into it. Enjoy!
"To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high."
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Toad. I hope they bury her on high ground. With all the guys I know, that are planning the same thing, the whole cemetery could sink.
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to you Preon. Are you at the AFA?
Preon said it very well. No one is defending what she did, only her right to do it. Some people make bad choices with freedom.
(I have attended the Graduation ceremony at the AFA, and have never had a better seat for a Thunderbird show than at the Academy football stadium. My Brother-in-law was a graduate and eventually a teacher and coach at the Blue Zoo)
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Originally posted by Toad
She can say what she wants to say; no problem with that.
But I personally think the trip to Hanoi went a little beyond free speech.
Toad, I agree. I thought one definition of treason was aiding and comforting the enemy. If there were any justice a B-52 strike would have taken her out while she was posing on that AA gun. I think the fact she was part of the priviliged class cut her more slack than you or I would get if we went to Baghdad and posed for pictures at a SAM site.
Preon, to you sir, you give me hope for our future knowing we have such quality in the Armed Forces.
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Oh no Lord Ha Ha and Tokyo Rose's free speech rights were violated... I bet the ACLU would of had no trouble defending them either? Remeber the left in America backed Stalin, Castro,
Ortega, Mao, and Ho Chi Minh, So Jane Fonda is easy.
Oh btw I understand Jane is a born again Christian now so the left will start hating her soon...
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing!
handy,
Who's free speech rights would you protect?
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When Fonda was in Hanoi it was July '72. I was a Senior in AFROTC then. Seems I recall the Staff Officers mentioning that bombing was suspended in the Hanoi area while she was in town for fear of hitting her and causing a Public Relations problem.
Don't remember for sure.. but it wouldn't suprise me.
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Freedom of Speech is not the issue here.
Visiting an enemy nation during time of war (Yes, I KNOW it wasn't a declared war!) IS the issue. Had Betty Grable traveled to Germany during World War II to give aid and comfort to the Nazis she would have been immediately arrested, tried, and incarcerated upon her return. And rightly so.
The statements she made about our returning servicemen, while she had a right to say them, were unforgiveable. That alone should disqualify her from receiving any "honors" from the film industry. That narcisistic bunch has very little in common with the average American, so she'll probably be very near the top of their list of 100 most influential women.
Every serviceman who is able ought to stand in protest outside the award ceremony.
Rest in P___ , Jane
Regards
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Toad,
That was kinda common throughout the war. There were international commissions and all sorts of dignitaries who visited Hanoi which had the affect of limiting the US's strikes. Had the USA wanted to overthrow the North, it wouldn't be so difficult considering Hanoi and Haiphong are within 100 miles of each other and just off the coast for any amphibious landing. And with many of the North's soldiers transiting south or already in South Vietnam, would've made for an interesting what-if? Anyway, as I read this I was thinking about the picture of her in the AAA gun and am glad you found it and posted it. Didn't she say "I want to shoot down Yankee Air-Pirates"? I may be mixing urban legend with fact in that case, I don't know. Her actions did cause many people some extra grief.
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BTW, the debunking of the e-mail is here (and a few other places):
Hanoi Jane (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.truthorfiction.com/images/fondapic.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/hanoijane.htm&h=381&w=552&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djane%2Bfonda%2Bhanoi%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den)
I think it's legit.
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I think Jane Fonda's ultimate goal was to have America withdraw troops from Vietnam. Too bad that she was insane.
Interesting statistic: It is estimated that 10 to 15% of American casualties suffered in Vietnam were caused by friendly fire.
Source:
"About Face"
Col. David Hackworth